What are some serious lessons comics can learn from manga? Posted on May 24, 2023 by Anonymous What are some serious lessons comics can learn from manga?
do stories other than capeshit
This, only unironically. American comics need to learn how to tell a story that doesn't involve people hitting people or people being conflicted about how much they hit people.
That's all most popular manga are too. Such a disingenuous argument.
One Piece is about pirates looking for a treasure.
The original Dragon Ball was a Journey to the West adaptation.
YuGiOh was about a kid who played games to the death when getting possessed by a spirit, then turned into a story about a society revolving around card games.
Detective Conan is self-explanatory.
Slam Dunk is about basketball.
>Inb4 "But they have combat!"
It's not the premise.
>It's not the premise.
You didn't say it had to be the premise just "a story that doesn't involve people hitting people or people being conflicted about how much they hit people"
Stop being disingenuous. You know anon was talking about vigilante crime fighters, which is pretty much what all capeshit superheroes are.
Anon, but that describes shonen manga, too.
The Walking Dead, Saga, Maus, A Contract with God, Bone, Cerebus, Persepolis, etc
And those are just the basic introductionary stuff
Non-cape already exists
Oh let me guess, you're going to point out european comics that aren't translated, webcomics that are fucking hard to find, or kiddy comics, while completely ignoring how hegemonic super heroes are.
I can find non-battle shounen manga without much hardship even if it happens to be the most popular genre. I can find fans discussing manga of all kinds.
But it's so fucking hard to find comics that aren't capeshit. If you look at a comic convention, it's mostly people going in for the capeshit.
No, even basic bitch publishers like Image and BOOM offer non-cape
>But it's so fucking hard to find comics that aren't capeshit
I use League of Comic Geeks and browse through what's currently being released
You can find non-cape comics without trouble. You’re being a dishonest asshole
Man writing a paragraph because he can't read another book
>But it's so fucking hard to find comics that aren't capeshit.
No it isn't. Stop being a lying bitch.
Non-cape comics basically fall into one of a few categories: autobiographies by uninteresting dipshits, a crime series that the creators are clearly hoping gets optioned for TV/streaming, and bad fantasy.
You're not going to see a western comic doing a sports series or a business drama like Shima Kosaku.
They're all just softcore porn, especially if they come from France or Italy.
The thing is that people in America would rather watch live-action series than read comics if they wanted entertainment about business drama, sports, politics or slice of life.
Japan is different on a cultural level, which allows this. If something like Mad Men or House of Cards were comics instead of shows, they would be obscure stories like Milkman Murders, Criminal or Pyongyang.
people in america view drawings and animation as ways to portray things not possible in real life. so naturally it's going to lean towards the fantastical.
if you want to see a soap opera, you can turn on your tv and watch a soap opera. you don't need to buy a comic every month.
>if you want to see a soap opera, you can turn on your tv and watch a soap opera. you don't need to buy a comic every month.
NTA but if this is true then why did Marvel overtake DC so hard in the 60s and 70s? Go read some Silver Age DC, it was a lot more fantastical and a lot less soapy.
Anon you do realize that DC has a ton of romance books in the 50's/60's right?
The reason John Romita left to Marvel was because DC cancelled all of those as the market dried up.
Yeah, in the 50s and 60s. DC also had healthy sales in the 50s and 60s. Which btw included those romance comics, they'd been a part of American comics since the 'Golden Age' (the fact that we even think of American comic history in terms of these ages shows how hegemonic capeshit is) and they did sell.
War comics continued to be published by the Big 2 into the 80s even, you had S.H.I.E.L.D. over at Marvel in the 60s, you had Westerns selling into the 70s as well. Lines like Epic and Vertigo weren't wall to wall genre comics and often the genre stuff that sold the best from them sold because it didn't read like a typical genre comic and seemed more 'adult' or 'literary' (not saying that's actually true of most Vertigo comics).
And you know what else DC and Marvel had in the 60s and 70s? Other genre comics besides capeshit. Look at how many sword and sorcery, sci fi, and horror comics were being put out by these companies until the mid 70s. Yeah we've got Black Label, yeah there were a few non-capeshit books in the New 52, but it's not comparable. So even if you're right about people wanting the fantastic, American comics don't even give them that. Not in terms of imagination either, sci fi and fantasy Eurocomics are way less grounded in reality and way more wildly creative.
Maybe Sgt. Fury would be a better example than S.H.I.E.L.D. but you get my point, there was more variety then and it got snuffed out in favor of doing the same old shit over and over again, which leaves you with an audience of infantile fanboys who want the same old shit over and over again and will happily sign up to get garden gnomeed from here to next week if you serve it to them.
An important angle to this particular argument is fanboys v casuals.
Back in the 50s and 60s the main distribution channel for comics was newsstand sales, by which anyone walking by a newsstand or picking up milk at the grocery store could buy a comic book if it caught their fancy. Wider potential audience meant many genres could prosper for many prospective readers.
This starts collapsing in the 70s because inflation starts outpacing comic book prices, but even then every raise in price would drop sales by a ton, which meant more and more newsstands started dropping comic books because they would take up valuable rack space for negligible profits.
Publishers tried some new formats to survive (the DC 100 page spectaculars were one such experiment) but ended up being saved by the emergence of the comic book stores, which would be fully dedicated to comics and comics alone. That meant the books started answering more and more to the LCS customer's taste, which usually means fanboy taste.
And what the fanboys wanted wasn't so much only superheroes- but the Universes themselves. They became Marvel or DC fans because of the overarching narrative of the continuity, which the companies capitalized on with the Crisis and crossovers that bring the interconnectivity to the fore.
What this ended up meaning is that books that
a)weren't part of the canon (horror and love anthologies with no main characters)
or b)weren't set in the *right* moment and *right* place to participate in the continuity (war and western, sci-fi)
started falling to the wayside as "unimportant for the overarching story", deprived of their casual audience and scorned by the nerds of the world.
tl;dr nerds have awful goddamn taste
That's only a drop in the bucket compared to the rancid chicanery Marvel and DC pulled with the Comics Code, see:
CCA was a big one, but it wasn't the sole responsible for this shit- paper inflation and television were also huge pains in the ass.
Also Marvel was not in the CCA side- they were still a two-bit operation, making loads of money with their shitty EC gorefest ripoffs. The real masterminds of the CCA were those bastards at Archie Comics.
>The thing is that people in America would rather watch live-action series than read comics if they wanted entertainment about business drama, sports, politics or slice of life.
You're basically giving up before even attempting to try.
You can't say this kind of shit and then get mad when someone says that manga has more variety.
Hell, both Japan and Korea also have live action shows about business drama, sports, politics, and slice of life, but they still both have comic industries full of these kinds of stories as well.
In fact, sometimes those live action shows are based on manga/manhwa.
A 30-something reading manga or manwha isn't culturally frowned upon in the east, anon. Shit, OLs have an entire genre dedicated to them and they sell. A lot.
Comics in the west are still seen as a dumbass hobby for kids and immature people. Sure, your average Joe will watch the latest Marvel movie, the Boys or entire seasons of the Walking Dead. But good luck selling comics to them. And good luck making comics as available as manga and manwha are in their native markets.
I bet you also believe anime actors are highly respected and well paid professionals known to the general public.
It's not AS stigmatized, but if you're reading something outside the 'appropriate' demographic for you or ecchi on the train, people are still going to think you're a stinky otaku and pretend you don't exist.
Anon, you do realize that a lot of anime VAs are literally singers, idols, comedians, and professional actors in live action works as well, right?
So yes, many of them ARE respected and well-paid professionals.
>trots out seiyuu who have multiple jobs
wow how unpredictable
You do realize that those people are primarily famous and paid because of THOSE jobs, not because they do silly cartoon voices, yes? Anime acting is not considered serious acting, because it's pretty much all saturday morning cartoon levels of ham and stilted dialogue, and with a handful of exceptions it pays terribly and forces the actors to take any other work they can find to survive.
>Anime acting is not considered serious acting
Lol, anon, please stop spouting such stupid shit when you clearly don't know what the fuck you're talking about.
Your concession is accepted. If you want to come back with testimony from Japanese people that anime characters sound normal to them, knock yourself out.
I'm sorry that you're a mongoloid anon, but I guess I expect it from /toon/.
No need to reconfirm you're full of shit. That was already established.
Japan is weird because you can be a popular enough musician to regularly sell out major arenas, and still not be known to the general public because the 20,000 fans in the arena is a drop in the bucket in a 40 million+ Tokyo metro area.
But that also highlights why it's easier to have more diverse stories in Japan than the US, because all you need is a few thousand people to buy your manga for it to be successful enough to make a living on, this provides a much larger amount of manga that major publishers can just pick and choose which ones end up being most popular. Easier for niche subcultures to thrive instead of being beholden to whatever a bunch of stock market boomers think should be published.
>you're not going to see a western comic doing a sports series
You can find plenty of comics that aren't capeshit from non-Marvel/DC publishers you fucking retarded casuals
that is the problem, for example shonen jump does not only publish action series
Well they should do more non capeshit. But even their non capeshit stuff they capeshit it up.
There are other stories that are not capeshit. It's just that capeshit is heavily saturated, completely burying the other stories.
true but the way I worded it has a better punch to it
But all the popular manga are essentially capeshit.
Anon, half the popular manga are romance.
Then why do people keep posting about capeshit manga in these threads?
Because it's /toon/?
And romance, drama, thriller, slice of life and other genres that it's very easy to portray in cinema or television is also an absolute ton of the best selling prose fiction. Nonfiction often sells really well. If it was as simple as 'realism can't sell in comics because people would just turn on the tv if they wanted realism' then that shouldn't be happening. Prose is even less limited a medium than comics and yet we don't the top 100 bestselling books being nothing but sci fi and fantasy.
NTA, but while I do think there's a chance since pretty much anyone under the age of 30 is familiar with manga/graphic novels as reading material that an adult can read, "picture books" has been used as a pejorative for decades in general. Even when newstand sales were a thing, an adult reading a comic(and not necessarily a cape comic, since alot of newstand sales were stuff like Tarzan, Conan or Sgt. Rock), showing an adult reading a comic was usually meant to show them as juvenile or dumb. It's a stigma that still needs to be hurdled.
I agree, I just don't think you overcome that stigma by writing off literary, slice of life, experimental, autobio etc. comics. If people walk into an LCS and most of what they see is a bunch of garishly colored macho men punching each other and blasting energy beams, does that give them a single reason in the world to stop thinking of the medium as dumb and infantile? I don't think your typical action adventure manga is all that much better btw and I do read and enjoy capeshit, but I probably wouldn't if I hadn't been hooked as a kid. It IS infantile, an awful lot of people who didn't grow up reading this stuff see it like WWE or something, it's cringe to them.
Another thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is that if you look at the demographics of actual book sales, women spend the most on prose and read more than men in general. Men spend the most on nonfiction. In both cases there's evidence that it's not just 'the internet means print media is done for so let's publish capeshit for another 20 years and then fold', books do sale. And in both cases there's evidence that there's a demand for non-filmic media that's true to life in some sense. Not to say that sci fi, horror, and fantasy novels don't sell well, they do. But if we run with this comparison to print, there's absolutely nothing in print fiction sales that would lead you to believe that only the fantastic, and only the specific form of the fantastic offered by capeshit, can sell.
>an awful lot of people who didn't grow up reading this stuff see it like WWE or something, it's cringe to them.
wrestling is based though
Wrestling is cultural cancer and so is capeshit, if you enjoy this stuff and aren't embarrassed on some level that you enjoy it, if you're totally comfortable with the fact that this is the level popular entertainment has sunk to, then there's something deeply wrong with you.
>if you enjoy this stuff and aren't embarrassed on some level
fuck cringe culture.
It's not cringe culture though, MSM hypes up every new capeshit flick that comes out and comic book reddit loves this stuff, even ostensibly more literate places like /r/graphicnovels. I'm not letting mass opinion shape my view of what entertainment should and shouldn't be, I'm using my brain. Does it seem healthy to you for an increasing amount of people to be stuck in an infantile stage where they retreat to what they liked as kids for comfort? Is that healthy maturation?
Even the way we use language now. Compare the narration in a superhero comic from the 1970s to a superhero comic on the stands this week. If the modern issue even has narration at all, it'll be so simple that even an idiot could understand it. There were more kids reading back in the 70s than today but some adults are going to need to search up words once in a while. Read even a pulp writer from the 20s-30s like Lovecraft or Howard and compare it to Brandon Sanderson or George R.R. Martin. Is it healthy that our language is literally degenerating in front of our eyes and nobody even considers it a problem?
Is it healthy that instead of learning about history, philosophy, religion, engaging with complex ideas, analyzing politics in a complex and nuanced way, educating ourselves and thinking about deep themes, that we want to retreat into comforting little bubbles of consumption where everything reduces the world down to easily digestible little narratives that even a retarded toddler could understand and tell us we already know everything worth knowing?
'Pop culture' in general is absolute degenerate and always was and it's gotten much, much, much worse.
What an exhausting way to live you must have.
You're right thinking is hard
do you feel better now? I'm sure you are much smarter than all the NPCs in your daily life too, buddy.
I don't think I am smarter, I think everyone realizes on some level that there's something deeply off kilter about modern culture. It just gets excused because people use this stuff as an escape from unpleasant realities in their lives and can't really do much about the state and direction of culture anyway. And because there's this idea that entertainment is a trivial thing and taste is subjective anyway so just let people enjoy things. English degenerating (and btw it's happening with other languages as well) I think a lot of people don't notice simply because they don't read enough old books.
Everything I said stands, even if I did put it in a pretty pretentious and spergy way. Pop culture is sterile and largely barren of deep, meaningful engagement with universal themes. That's replaced by empty stories about punching things and having hope in the guy with the s on his chest because those stories are what make you feel like you're 5 years old again and will never die. Premodern fiction and folklore do address these universals, they do have lasting value that the latest Avengers story won't have in a decade's time or even less. It's not moral to spend your time looking at women dressed like whores jumping around on top buildings and pretending that's art. It should be worrying that high school textbooks from 100 years ago read like collegiate textbooks today, that average people used to speak more clearly, constructed more complex sentences, and know more about history, world affairs, and high culture than they do today. And pop culture has removed us from storytelling, it's made storytelling into a product we consume rather than a universal human activity we engage in. I could keep going but whatever, I'm just saying the same things but more calmly now, if you really don't see the problem then you don't see the problem.
Shut up Moore
I'm not some fanboy, don't like him as a person and even some of his comics that people consider classics I think are trash. But a lot of his cultural criticism is spot on and he makes capeshit fans seethe so hard for a reason.
Even the implicit message behind the fact that capeshit goes on forever. What is that? On some level isn't a denial of death? 'No matter what happens and no matter how much the world changes, at least Superman stays the same'. Isn't that complete spiritual cancer that pretends that we're not in a predicament, that pretends that there are no stakes to life, that pretends that age and time and change and unpleasant universal facts of human existence, which actually were addressed in profound ways in the 'entertainment' of premodern cultures, are being denied so that some sad sack nerd or over the hill boomer can feel better about himself?
Just thinking about this stuff almost gives me an aneurysm, we're swimming a sea of garbage and regression and idiocy and moral depravity and half the time we don't even realize it.
fuck you, wrestling is kino
>there's absolutely nothing in print fiction sales that would lead you to believe that only the fantastic, and only the specific form of the fantastic offered by capeshit, can sell
Print sales in general rather, fiction or nonfiction
Another thing we should see if this 'Americans prefer the fantastical in mediums which aren't limited reality' is fantastical films performing more poorly than realistic ones and fantastical comics performing comparably well. We don't see either of those things, there's a market for both realistic and fantastical films but your average blockbuster is fantastical and comic sales are in the garbage no matter what 'fantastical' things you make Superman and Batman do this month.
Sure, but how much of the comic reading audience can still be made up of boomers in their 50s and 60s who balk at someone reading a comic?
No one under the age of 30 gives a fuck, so eventually you need to just ignore crusty old people whining about "dem dirty picture books" if you want to actually attract that younger audience.
The problem is that the people making purchases for stores, and working advertisements at book stores and online shops, making reading lists for schools, all don't necessarily look at comics as material for adults, or worthy of advertising on the same level as other books. Not even cape comics, but other genres besides kid's graphic novels. Asterios Polyp is a comic for adults, but you never saw it advertised the same way as other adult aimed books.
Daemon Slay is romance?
umm fujos and moe is literally the biggest market for anime and manga??
what are you even talking about?
the precure fags and friends are the ones buying 1000 dollar merchandise and also the ones spending money on f/go,honkai and genshin and pachinko.
shonen is big but its not even the most profitable market by a long shot.
Even when doing capeshit itself the Japs run rings around the West.
MHA and (Murata) OPM having fucking terrible plots at this point. The decompression makes them even worse since they're like a trainwreck in slow motion. The worst aspects of shonen are essentially just laterally adjacent of capeshit.
I love how you snuck Rapeman in there.
The hero we need now more than ever.
Look Batman, I heard you went through some ninja training? Perhaps it's time we take some more inspiration from our Japanese friends, hai?
Tiger & Bunny was so good. Love how it did the whole 'Yeah, super heroes are a business and they need sponsors and ratings" without ever getting too cynical.
MHA and OPM aren't good.
MHA has been particularly derivative from day 1. I guess they're alright if all you want is action and titties.
Kamen Rider isn't good either, but it's got some charm.
I tried watching it, but the gay designs, the CG supers, and the otherwise generic anime format made me drop it.
Literally one of the biggest manga worldwide right now is capeshit.
Also Japan has their own oversaturated markets, like battle shounen and Isekai.
>One of the
Why do you need your pedophilic hobby to be constantly acknowledged/validated you simpering f/a/ggot?
because it's making more money than yours bitch lmao
Japs making money off of your mental illness overseas isn't a personal win for you. Try again, retard.
Americans not making any money off of your mental illness at home isn't a personal win for you. Try again, retard.
>my response was so good that all he could do was copy it.
Comics could learn a lot about how they sell their stories from the success of manga. Focus less on overpriced 20 page pamphlets and more on selling a complete story. Also, they should focus more on selling what has already been released. There's a lot of good shit that goes underappreciated because it was released 20 pages at a time on a monthly basis for exorbitant prices.
>Focus less on overpriced 20 page pamphlets and more on selling a complete story.
The complete story of most manga takes multiple years to play out. This doesn't negate the point but it does complicate it; you still have to convince people to buy multiple installements of an ongoing story.
There are a ton of mangas which sell very well and tell stories in one volume or less than one volume. And another key difference is that there actually *is* a full story being told in manga in a ton of cases. In capeshit, what sells as much as a specific run is the illusion of an overarching meta-story. The Bendis-era metastory at Marvel took a decade to play out and was hyped up as this gigantic thing where everything was changing and wow, there are stakes and oh look, this character died. And what was it really? It was a corporate reshuffle where Marvel revamped and prioritized the Avengers, stretched over an entire decade and marketed as a story. Even genuinely good capeshit runs don't really have conclusions usually, they just peter out at a certain point. You can't conclude shit if everything is a shared universe and there's this expectation that 'the story' (which isn't actually a story) has to go on forever.
Yeah but it’s all collected and accessible
Pretty much the entirety of Superman in the 90s is uncollected. This isn’t some rinky dink obscure character, it’s fucking Superman. The entire triangle era (besides Death and Return) is basically impossible to find unless you want to read digital or spend a ton of time scouring on ebay
>. Focus less on overpriced 20 page pamphlets and more on selling a complete story.
But-- If they do that, then no one will buy the NEXT issue!
>Focus less on overpriced 20 page pamphlets and more on selling a complete story.
That’s what trades are you fucking moron.
TPBs are overpriced compared to their manga counterpart too though.
Somewhat, comic pages are denser to read on average. It'll take you longer to read Watchmen than two Manga volumes.
Yeah, because you get better quality product in terms of paper, colouring, size, etc.
You don't need a trade to tell a complete story you brainless fucktard. Some of the greatest stories in comics history are done in single issues.
I get why people dislike floppies, but in all likelihood if you got rid of them they'd still need a way to publish regular installments to maintain engagement because just doing two OGNS a year is why there's almost no discussion for most euro comics.
>overpriced 80-120 page chunks of the 'story' that never ends
Wow, so much better. Your standard manga collection is larger, cheaper, part of a story that actually has progression, and doesn't try to force you to buy or expect you to have already read a bunch of other books.
>Focus less on overpriced 20 page pamphlets
Most manga chapters are around 20 pages long. They're just bundled together in a big magazine with like 6-8 other mangas then released later in a single volume similar to TPB.
>Most manga chapters are around 20 pages long.
Weekly manga maybe, monthly ones are usually 34-46 pages per chapter.
Not drawing back-and-forth conversations in a single large panel where the art becomes a only a vague representation of the facial expression and body language of the people involved.
demon slayer is shit and a good example of why anime after 2014 sucks
Shounen(the whole demographic) makes for less than 40% of all manga and battle shounen most likely makes for even less than 20% of all manga while capecomics make for more than 70% of all american comics. That's the number 1 problem.
Reminder that "comic book" and "superhero" are frequently used as synonymous terms. That's all you need to know to tell you that comics have a major problem.
I have already written my thoughts down and what can I, I am based.
how to be dogshit and suck ass
make stuff that's actually cool. People fundamentally love capeshit; it just needs varied packages
Throw a thousand darts at the wall. Eventually one will hit. Out of the hundreds of manga and anime released this year, you'd only know a handful that were even remotely good.
But there are like 100 more comics made than manga considering that every artist on twitter and every other platform makes one. Where are the good western ones?
oh, so you're retarded
>point out how his post sounded retarded
>nooooo you are the retarded one!!!!
it's okay dude. I bet you were winning all your arguments back in school.
It's a non argument. You can't count every newspaper strip & digital web strip as comics when this is SPECIFICALLY about the actual comic book industry. That's like including every doujinshi as manga.
But that would make no sense considering that among the published manga a large percent is made out of doujinshi published on a media site or forum that get enough of a following to get published.
And it makes no sense to count anything that's not a published comic book as such. Do you see the point I'm making?
Well… I would count doushinji as manga. Doushinji in Japan are sold in regular manga stores, and their artists/writers often also have some more mainstream seinen manga out
Anyone have that image comparing old comics and manga through the years?
Cute girls sell.
In action-oriented genres: longer fight scenes, better fight scenes. A fight between characters in shonen can be hyped up for an entire arc and end in a multi-chapter battle where it's really given room to breathe. Related question: What's the best western fight scene you've ever read?
>What's the best western fight scene you've ever read?
Probably the multi-fight sequence from Alan Moore and Alan Davis' Captain Britain. It's like five to seven fights back to back, with fisticuffs and reality warping.
>What's the best western fight scene you've ever read?
Invincible vs Conquest
>read manga my entire life
>try to give a chance to western comics for the first time
>the action is pure dogshit compared to what i'm used to see in manga
>even some of the most mediocre manga I have seen had better action than comics regarded as masterpieces
I know I might sound like a massive weeaboo that sucks off anything that comes from glorious nippon but you can't even argue that it's just a different style. The way action is portrayed in manga is objectively superior to comics in every possible way.
Thoughts on artists who grew up on manga and let it influence their work?
Mora, Dragotta, DWJ, Harren, etc
You read anything drawn by them?
I think I enjoy action in comics better when I'm taking at most a few seconds to read each panel instead of slowing down to take in the details, and insert real-world sounds in my head regardless of whether or not an onomatopoeia is on the page. I genuinely have no clue if that's what you're supposed to do when you read comics or not, though. Do you just read "THUD" as the word "Thud" and not a corresponding, softish impact?
Using Mignola as an example as interesting. Because his primary goal in images is graphic composition and stark imagery over a lot of detailing and aims more for brevity.
I take it you want more speedlines and lengthy fight sequences with techniques?
now compare it with this. Call it a cherrypick if you want but that's how action looks on average in western comics.
Neither of these looks good.
I'm not too into comics but I'd say the biggest difference between these two is that the manga looks like a still frame from an animation then detail is added. As in, it has stretch, squish, line weight, deformation, etc.
Meanwhile the comic is a overly literal snapshot. Even real life has more deformation in them.
True. I feel like cartoons and comics are really lacking in squash and stretch
Especially modern western puppet based animation. I feel like everyone has become obsessed with being on model at the expense of good artistic technique. Imo, modern japanese animation has also suffered at the hands of modern techniques/technology but they started off with top tier animation geniuses like Itano.
Meanwhile in the West, it's the year of our Lord 2023 and comic "artists" can't depict motion and impact to save their worthless lives.
That's an edit though, the original is Punisher holding the melon to his head. Why did you use some random anon's shitpost as an example?
He googled "funny bad comic book pages" and he thought that would be a good example for his argument.
I'd argue Hellboy is a horror/spooky series, not an action one.
Action is one of the things I care about least in comics and manga. I can appreciate it when it's good, but when it ends up looking like this
, it's too much in the other direction. That manga art looks like SHIT.
>>the action is pure dogshit compared to what i'm used to see in manga
This could only be a problem if you're a literal child.
>Nooo you can't expect quality action! Static fights traced off pornos is just fine.
Ah fresh /toon/pe.
lel and what are adults supposed to expect from a comic book then?
This, most western authors focus WAY too much on life drama, and not enough on either fights, or the leadup to/aftermath of them.
>in a multi-chapter battle
And those are shit! Who wants seven months of almost nonstop fighting and no proper plot progression? Morons!
If I'm reading an action story I want action.
Better distribution People talk about quality but the biggest manga in the world right now is Demon Slayer and if you've actually read or seen it you'd know that it's mediocre at best. Also less capeshit and make it easier for new people to get in.
Genuinely what the fuck could they do that wouldn't just cause more East vs West retardation. "Manga's easier the get into then comics because it's one singular story oh but I don't want to read a 100+ run of a specific character that tells a singular story that has a start and end point because that takes a lot time". Read a fucking TPB retard and go jerk off to actual porn like a normal person.
mangafags wouldn't give a shit about comics even if it gave them everything they want because they don't give a shit about western culture at all. they're weebs who only watch anime, only read manga, and only jerk off to pixelated hentai.
>western culture at all.
Lmao. You think comics are western culture and anime/manga are japanese culture. They are at most internet/geek culture. They have barely existed for 100 years and people mostly talk about the ones made in the 50 years. Maybe something like peanuts could be considered important for the culture but the rest of them not so much.
i'm referring to comics as a subset of western culture. as in, if you don't care about western culture in general then you're not going to care about comics.
learn to read.
>mangafags wouldn't give a shit about comics even if it gave them everything they want because they don't give a shit about western culture at all.
That's implying that if I gave a fuck about western culture I would consequently care about comics which can easily be proven false. Learn to write.
>That's implying that if I gave a fuck about western culture I would consequently care about comics
no, it isn't. if A then B =/= if B then A
>In general, for any statement where A implies B, not B always implies not A.
I think I see the problem here.
You think I'm saying that the only way you could not care about comics is if you don't care about western culture. I'm not saying that. I'm saying that the reason this specific group of people doesn't and will never care about comics is because they don't care about western culture. But that's not a general statement.
You probably made this mistake because you're an illiterate retard.
I am using basic mathematical logic you fag.
and you're using it wrong
The people who write comics hate western culture, the fuck you on about?
>western culture is when Wonder Woman has big tits and you can see her panties and continuity stays THE SAME
Yeah, you're practically Harold Bloom man.
How can one be this retarded. Too many mangas are set in the west. It's just westerners especially whites can't even copy mangas diversity, and only keep making capeshit garbage set in your Anglo Amerimutt shithole.
The western market doesn’t support genre diversity. They bitch and whine about it but then never pay for it and buy manga instead and then pretend they would totally read western comics when they never bother to put an effort into finding stuff they like
Okay, what's a good narrative-driven comic about tennis?
make it more accessible
focus more on the comics and less on your public persona
make more self-contained stories and "what-if's"
lower the stakes
Pic related deserves to be more infamous than Rob Liefeld's Captain America
The one in the OP is much worse.
At least the one OP posted didn't made her look 80 years old
>Got something for me, fat?
First thing is make 1:1 cartoons about the comic series and not something that loosely based on it due to it being not as diverse as it should be or making shit a live action cgi fest. Most Manga is being carried by their anime.
Dunno about that, the Invicible cartoon was superior to the comic in many ways, mostly because Kirkman worked on the cartoon too.
It's mostly aesthetics and ease of availability . Yes, writing is a problem too, but you can sell something with shitty writing if it isn't patronizing. The way comics are numbered
And it's not just big two comics, a lot of indies jump companies and get new #1s and titles and makes them impossible to keep track of without a guide. Meanwhile you look at manga and theres big numbers for each volume that tells you immediately what to buy.
There's almost no engagement with comic art online, very few people under 35 imitating western comic art styles because they're too fucking intimidating and overly detailed to copy. Meanwhile a bunch of 3rd world zoomers are cranking out MHA/DS/CSM/ whatever
>And it's not just big two comics, a lot of indies jump companies and get new #1s and titles and makes them impossible to keep track of without a guide. Meanwhile you look at manga and theres big numbers for each volume that tells you immediately what to buy.
Just get the most recent fucking trades
The problem is once the old trades and books are on the market, they don't just go away. Lets say Rutabaga Girls spend some time being pulished by comico before jumping to dark horse and now it's Fantagraphics. Problem is Dark Horse has their collection still in the wild and maybe they didn't get the rights to Comico's so there's starts from a relaunch. but if you're a casual buyer you have no clue what is what, and casual buyers is how manga got big.
Why? It's going to be a story withno begining and end, where everything of note willbe retconned by the next author. There is a reason why big 2 comic books don't get good adaptation, they are fucking schizophrenic.
Then why comic artists don't?
The business model and story premises work against extended fight scenes. Paying several dollars for something you'll flip through in a minute and won't see continued for a month will annoy people, and most of the time comics stories are not built around tournaments, bosses and other devices that make the fight the point of the page time; the actual point is something else, usually the restoration of order or stopping immediate danger if a fight is involved.
>Why? It's going to be a story withno begining and end
Same as a manga volume with a big number on it
Except that there is non-zero chance that there will be an ending. There are some stories that are just never-ending bullshit, but they don't dominate the medium. And even then, it is controlled by one author that at least checks on people that actually write story.
But that speaks more of artists being cheap shits. Jojo, Baki, Berserk and OPM are very popular and have superdetailed imagery that wannabe artists would fail to imitate. If anything, current internet artist trends veer more towards a simplistic cartoon style rather than straight up anime or capeshit.
Japanese (and Chinese/Korean) work civilization encourages working yourself to death, and American artists can tire out on a single book, remember how Skottie Young is not doing the I Hate Fairyland revival despite half the appeal of the series is him drawing cartoon characters getting gruesomely killed?
Sometime I am thinking that we are shitting on /toon/ stuff a bit too much and too extreme but then I remember how anti-japanese a lot of forums were back in the day and I don't care anymore.
>we are shitting on /toon/ stuff a bit too much
Why do you go here?
Stuff from my childhood that I like to talk about and youtube animation.
boy that's kinda sad, down to you probably holding onto grudges from toonzone where some gen xer shat on the anime you liked.
>your favorite anime is shit
was such a big deal I wouldn't have liked Cinemaphile either. What I am talking about is moderators that absolutely hate anything japanese.
Anon I was on forums back then too, probably a little older, it's kinda weird to hold grudges for that long over internet forums.
Pretty much any anger I had over mods in forums went away the first time I saw a con meetup post with pics and realized all the mods I disliked were all disgusting looking so it was no point in letting them live rent free in my head
Well it's not like I am thinking about them non-stop but whenever I see threads like these I am reminded that thing were the other way around back in the day
>I remember how anti-japanese a lot of forums were back in the day
Most of /toon/ wasn't alive back then
Look I'm not saying capeshit action is good. But you will never ever convince me that SPEEDLINES for 3 issues is somehow better.
I don't think speedlines are everything but they are 1 of the tools that manga use to convey movement better. I've read AnJ quite a while ago and I can still replicate all of Joe's move using my whole body because the moves themselves were imprinted in my mind,
I won't say they can't be used to positive effect but I think it should be sparingly because a good artist ought to be able to convey movement without them. And shonen overuses the hell out of them to the point that it rarely leaves an impression on me, it's just obnoxious to my eyes.
>I can still replicate all of Joe's move using my whole body because the moves themselves were imprinted in my mind,
lol that'd be cringy as fuck to see
I don't think so. They are standard boxing moves that you can exercise without looking weird. What's interesting is that I can remember the order in which he was usually using them.
None. They've already learned the most important lesson: indoctrinate them when they're young and they'll stay loyal for life.
Honesty I like newspaper strip style comics more than tradition comics and manga. Also French comics are great too, super fucking comfy
The art style is the one major thing manga/anime should learn from westerners
What are you taking about, even if manga has boring/generic art, it doesn’t look disgusting like some American comics (Euro comics are a different discussion)
Anon's talking about a Euro comic though. Europe is also western.
but it does look boring and generic
You're defending official art by attacking fan art?
The only difference is the lack of cartoons, anything else is just cope on /a/'s part
There's billions of e-boi hentai made just for you. Don't project onto me.
>that left pic
Learn that you don't need to ink right after your first penciling? That there's these things called erasers? That it's a good idea to look at pics of real people before attempting to draw fictional ones?
An editor let the pig nose through when they could easily fix it in whatever the current photoshop is. Something is deeply wrong in the house of ideas.
the artist in a native american and the whole book was basically touted as using native artists and writers so I think they were jumpy about editing anything like that.
The artist just seems to draw big noses in general.
Just make something fun.
American comics are too corporate and sterile, which is insane considering how many corpos have their fingers in the manga pie over in Japan, yet they still manage to feel less sterile.
Probably because they engage in actual Capitalism over there, so corpos instead of just consolidating everything and trying to make all of their properties into identical sludge will actually branch out and do all sorts of different shit. Which is how you end up with a magazine for gays, a magazine for little kids, a hentai magazine, a magazine for grown men, and a magazine for teen girls all published by the same company running all sorts of different stuff.
A key difference that not enough people notice is that in both Europe and Japan, most comics were put out by actual established publishing houses, with a wide variety of magazines and books other than comics. In the US on the other hand, comic books were first put out by either pulp magazine publishers, which operated on the skirts of the law, or garment district workers getting loans from the printers, usually with no prior work experience with magazines, let alone comics. And when they were bought off it wasn't by publishing houses but by shady-ass entertainment conglomerates up to Disney. The one exception might be Dell, and even then the actual comics were being put together by Western for the most part.
Marketing and distribution maybe. High standards for art.
Here is one:
STOP INSULTING YOUR CUSTOMERS
It's hard to want to buy comics when the creators hate me because I have the "wrong" opinions.
That's very true. But even if they stopped doing that, their stories are still going to be mediocre. How about having a ruthless person to be editor in chief?
>How about having a ruthless person to be editor in chief?
Jim Shooter is the unsung hero of the comics industry.
He sure is
They need to completely abandon the old men that make up their customer base actually, they are all dying out and useless. Manga succeeds because it appeals to more people than same niche group of 40+ year old nerd, it appeals to young people across generations.
True, but it's hard to get new, young customers when you appeal to people that don't buy comics and insult half your consumer base because they have the "wrong" letter at the end of their registration card.
>it's hard to get new, young customers when you appeal to people that don't buy comics
That's exactly who the Big 2 have to appeal to if they want to outlive people like us (as fully functional publishers like they've been in the past I mean, they're owned by entertainment giants that are not going anywhere).
The issue what the sort of thing you're complaining about isn't that they're trying to appeal to people that don't read comics, it's that they aren't doing that seriously. Some clickbait issue where Superman's son comes out of the closet is going to generate some clickbait revenue. Dumb libs who think it's some brave and stunning turning point for culture might buy it to put it in a box, dumb conservatives might buy it to rage at it. But now you're at issue #2 (or whatever it was, I bailed at like #9 and can't remember), how are you going to sell that one?
Just putting a bunch of political messaging all over the same old shit doesn't change anything if it's still the same old shit with the same old pricing and distribution channels. It would be exactly the same if some Republican billionaire were to buy DC and fill it with MAGA talking points. Might drive some short term revenue but in order to actually turn these companies back into viable publishers again, you need a lot more than that.
>The issue what
the issue with
I'm not talking about people that don't buy comics because they don't know about them, but that if you promoted them a comic that appealed to their tastes, would buy it in a heartbeat, I am talking about people that complain about comics being sexist or mysiogonistic or whatever, then when the comic changes to appease to their demands or comics made to appeal to them, still not buy it, and just pirate it in readcomicsforfree.com.
Appealing to Activists that don't buy comics was one of the great mistakes of the American Comic Book industry.
The real big reason why DC and Marvel will never appeal to new readers is that they have no use for comics anymore. For a long while now the huge bulk of the Big Two's value lays solely on licensing and merchandising, to the point that I doubt comics have been actually profitable beyond breaking even for a while. They've already got the IPs anyway so why bother? And there's little hope for new characters anyway because any creative smart enough to create a new hit will know it makes more financial sense to take a chance at Image or Dark Horse and keep all rights for themselves, even if it doesn't sell as much.
The only people motivated to grow the comics market is those looking to make a profit solely from selling comics, and the Big 2 are most definitively not.
This is also a pretty big one.
I'm not even white and even I rarely feel comfortable giving money to American creatives since most of them seem to be giant, hateful cunts.
Maybe you should stop being a bigot who wants to discriminate others if being told hateful bigotry and racism is bad hurts your feelings
no, shut up bitch lmfao
shoehorning characters and virtue signalling does not improve the material conditions of oppressed working class or minorities. go further left, stop jacking off to empty idpol that doesn't help anyone
Representation does matter. Keep seething
Just because your great great grandfather made mine walk the trail of tears, doesn't mean you can cry to me.
Make you stories that have a beginning middle and end: a reason to keep people invested in reading it
Write something unique that anyone can't write.
>create a more balanced publishing environment in terms of genres
I know indies exist but let's not pretend the Big 2 don't overwhelmingly publish capeshit.
>tell actual stories with beginnings, middles and ends that don't require you to be reading 20 other comics or to have been reading since the 1960s to fully understand things
If you're going to make it so that people need to read Fourth World and Crisis on Infinite Earths to understand the new crossover where everything changes forever then don't whine when zoomers don't buy it.
>give people a good deal, even at the expense of the physical quality of your comics.
For $4 I can get 21 pages of story with a floppy, for barely more money than that, often still under $10, I can get a slice of manga the size of a large TPB. Meanwhile a TPB sells for like $15-20 cover in the US market now and contain less issues than it used to in some cases, Marvel seems to have dropped the standard trade size down to 4 issues per trade.
>market comics at women and don't pretend that sticking female characters in genres like capeshit that mostly appeal to men is a serious attempt at that
Don't expect people to drive 50 minutes away to their nearest LCS where they're gonna be gypped like nobody's business, have zero clue what to buy, and be surrounded by offputting obsessives and then whine that normies don't read comics.
I'm mainly a Western comics guy and I don't really read manga besides some sci fi and horror stuff once in a blue moon but I think the overall picture is pretty obvious. The Big 2 at least, which unfortunately are what people think of when they think of American comics, are stuck in the 1980s, their whole business model consists of pandering to aging nostalgics who've been reading for ages and ages, who have very set tastes, and who are devoted enough to spend amounts of money that are unjustifiable if you actually wanna get new people reading.
better flow between panels, the movement of vision between a panel and the one that succeeds it should work with the action between the two.
An example, you have a panel on the bottom part of a page, and a character moves or gets moved upward, the next panel that is on the top part of the page should showcase that movement. Action should flow across the panels the way the panels are meant to be read in sequence.
>better flow between panels
I feel like paneling is one of the things that's significantly better in western comics.
you shut your whore mouth
>I feel like paneling is one of the things that's significantly better in western comics.
Watchmen permanently melted the brain of literal decades of comic readers.
It's okay to be simple
japan cant make a single decent animated series
also the very worst comic is still better than the best manga has to offer.
>also the very worst comic is still better than the best manga has to offer.
i wouldn't go that far. there are some really bad comics out there.
i don't care. whatever popular manga exists is utter trash and id rather have shit like this in the op than anything that japan produces.
Most of the time in manga the characters have zero personality. There's not a lot of subtext involved too. The average weeb isn't capable of notice that.
But i agree that superhero comics have a looot of problems.
The guy who made that image had to not just download, but shop the “dicky kino” as you call it into that image, just saying
>also f/a/g, don’t start fights you can’t win
everybody who likes anime is a fucking degenerate i cant stand them
Just produce direct adaptations, a lot of manga are only popular as they are now because they got a big boost from their animes. Like it even happened with Invincible, after the show came out, the comics started selling like hotcakes.
Invincible sold well when it first came out too and often the manga comes first. There also are a lot more direct adaptations of capeshit now and they don't work. Shazam! was a direct adaptation of Geoff Johns's N52 Shazam!, you have the animated films, animated series which hew closely to the comics, capeshit directors and actors will namedrop their 'favorite' stories when they give interviews. Doesn't translate into meaningfully increased sales or the amount of new readers that you'd need to save the Big 2 from a messy fate.
No. Anime is the only media format where its purchasing audience, which is primarily a subgroup of weirdos in Japan, not you, insists on slavish copying, and even in Japan there are regularly anime that don't do that. Everyone else understands one of the benefits of adapting material is making a new variation of an experience fans have already had.
Even more importantly for this particular media, comics aren't struggling because the movies and cartoons aren't adapting faithfully enough; people who are only fans of the other media just don't care about the comics and aren't hooked when they do read.
Big problem is giving a character to multiple writers+artists and that can character can be completely different each time.
DC+Marvel should come up with official guidelines that detail how a character is supposed to look and what their personality is.
At least have some consistency
>official guidelines that detail how a character is supposed to look
DC had that in the 60s and early 70s and it led to overreliance on their house style (which I actually like, not saying it was aesthetically trash or anything) at a time when Marvel was letting artists like Ditko and Kirby go crazy. In the early 70s it even led to Kirby's Superman being redrawn. Not a good idea, if anything the art in superhero comics is already way too homogenized.
Forced shared universes are cancer, let authors make their own worlds.
honestly, i think they worked better back then when there were les options available for ppl to read and the creators grew up with reading those characters.
It's kinda enjoyable when i' going through a story and i know more than the character and i can already antecipate a few things because i know those ppl. Like, when batman is going through an investigation and i realize sooner than him who did it. I can hear myself thinking "oh no, not Tetch again"
The problem is that most creators nowadays grew up with dragon ball and pokemon and some of them even hate caped shit.
And the big 2 don't care, they bastardize the characters to try to fit into the cool new thing.
>most creators nowadays grew up with dragon ball and pokemon
I wonder fucking why
Manga often revolves around a tactical battle between two sides. Superhero fights in western comics frequently do not involve any real form of tactics. The winner of a conflict is decided solely by which side is more powerful, whether that power comes in the form of super strength, speed, or martial arts. There's no cleverness, merely power levels.
When tactics are represented in western comics, it's often not done in a very interesting way.
More monochrome sex and nudity
>What are some serious lessons comics can learn from manga?
1. You can use angled panel edges. There's no rule against it.
2. Drawing the eye across the page. I genuinely pisses me off how many artists ignore this basic fucking design principle. Each fucking panel should FUCKING POINT TO THE NEXT FUCING PANEL unless you've got a damn good reason for it not to. Not doing this shit genuinely makes comics slower and less pleasant to read.
3. Basic scene choreography. I won't criticize framing itself because comics have actually fucking developed that skill as an industry. There's just too damn many shitty artists that SUCK AT IT OR DON'T FUCKING BOTHER. But choreography was never developed and pushed for.
4. How to do complex paneling. Pic god damn related shouldn't count as an exotic panel layout, but I've legit seen that shit break multiple /toon/mrade's brains cause they couldn't read the panel order.
>1. You can use angled panel edges. There's no rule against it.
Anon how few comics do you look at that you think angled edges aren't used in American comics? It's rarer in euro comics, but those and panel breaking are common in superhero comics.
>Anon how few comics do you look at that you think angled edges aren't used in American comics?
I'm aware they're used. They're just ridiculously underused and I have legitimately no fucking idea why.
>hey're just ridiculously underused and I have legitimately no fucking idea why.
It used to be used a lot in the 90's, I think backlash to how indulgent 90's comics got is why things shifted to the cinematic, storyboard approach in the 2000's.
Euro comics generally avoid it because they see a comic page as basically a series of illustrations, so really elaborate paneling is seen as distracting.
>Euro comics generally avoid it because they see a comic page as basically a series of illustrations, so really elaborate paneling is seen as distracting.
Angled panels open up greater options for framing scenes and make pageflow more obvious. Not saying you have to use them all the fucking time, but they should show up more than once a fucking issue.
>It used to be used a lot in the 90's, I think backlash to how indulgent 90's comics got is why things shifted to the cinematic, storyboard approach in the 2000's.
I swear to fuck comics are actively degrading as an art form. Thought bubbles died too.
Like this is the only fucking page with angled panels in the ENTIRETY of the latest ASM issue. I just want to know who the fuck hurt the western comics industry?
By the way, if you got it wrong, the industry has failed you.
In an American comic, 3 and 2 would be swapped. It also probably has to do with American comics being slightly taller and narrower and manga being wider.
>In an American comic, 3 and 2 would be swapped.
No. As I said, the industry failed you.
It depends, I swear older guys like Joe Kubert or Will eisner would go by the rule that horizontals take priority over verticals. That said in your particular example the angled panels do emphasize the order, but if they were framed as your blank panel example it'd be less clear.
>horizontals take priority over verticals
But they don't. You see that with the reverse. You would never suggest reading the bottom right before the bottom left just because it's on a higher horizontal.
You might want to brush up on your how to read comics.
Very manga ish
This page uses an additional technique to help the reader know which order to read in. The three panels on the left are all part of the same floating element and they're visibly "on top" of the two panels on the right. Moroever, you can see that they actually start off somewhere off-screen in the top left but whoever took the screenshot cropped it.
>Moroever, you can see that they actually start off somewhere off-screen in the top left but whoever took the screenshot cropped it.
In fairness you would never not start in the top left so that has nothing to do with anything. But you are right, the slight angle to the panels and them all being in the same floating element are there to help guide the reading order.
This is a good page, incidentally. Very good design principles. Clearly there are western artists that know what the fuck they're doing, so all the more reason to shit on the ones that don't.
For me it's bubbles with margins and fewer, bigger text per bubble. Text in comics gets so dense and small we'll need magnifying glasses to read them soon. While manga uses similar to picrel's method which makes for a way more pleasant read. The paneling is also nice especially with those gutters, and the reduced hue variation is great for clarity on the inks. I don't really read comics but I try to look for comics with at least this much understanding of page composition and layout but it's not like people tag stuff by artistic capability.
>Not doing this shit genuinely makes comics slower and less pleasant to read.
Examples of comics not doing that?
>Examples of comics not doing that?
Genuinely pick a random fucking page of a random fucking comic and it probably won't be.
Exhibit A: This is fucking awful.
this looks fine
>this looks fine
No. No it doesn't. These red lines are supposed to fucking connect. Every one of these fucking panels yeets your eyes off to the fucking right and every next panel is below. This is horrible page composition.
anon that's a 4-koma composition, who do you think you're kidding with this pathetic diplay?
No it isn't. 4koma are narrow, and your eye doesn't dart around much. They also limit dialogue. A 4koma should have no more then two dialogue bubbles on page at a time.
>i don't know what composition means
>if i post two 4-koma on one page, it means they're always narrow and this overrides everything else
again, who do you think you're kidding?
It couldn't be more obvious you're trying to push a case you got embarrassed into dying on a hill over.
Gentle notice that I haven't posted a single thing about whatever it was you were shrieking about until you tried to claim a simple vertical page read was some kind of ordeal, like constantly jerking our eyes all the way across the page isn't how we read books.
>like constantly jerking our eyes all the way across the page isn't how we read books.
COMICS ARE A VISUAL MEDIUM YOU BRAINLESS ASS-HAT!!!
Yes, you'll find books are too, and they ask you to yeet your eyes all the way across the page, with no information conveyed in 50% of those journeys, many more times than any comic ever will, so what point do you think you're making?
>Yes, you'll find books are too
Except for audiobooks. And books in braille.
>so what point do you think you're making?
One that escaped your pea brain about taking advantage of the tools afforded to a medium.
An audiobook isn't relevant to whatever you're pretending your argument is, and braille is support for my position. The only difference is they're interpreting informational shapes with their finger movement instead of eye movement.
>braille is support for my position
Your position being that books are a visual medium the same as comics you fuckwit?
more about visual
than I do, so I don't
even know what
I was even doing
to argue with
in the first place. I'm sorry. You were right all along. Where the eye is directed absolutely does not matter for quality of
You're dyslexic if you think this proves your point.
I'm a completely different anon. 4koma is a very specific style with a very specific composition. It isn't just 4 panels on a page. Panels are a specific size, and they're written in a very specific way to limit information per-panel. Also I posted two on one page because that's how they're typically published in collections you retard.
So are you going to explain how this makes it impossible to read the page or are you going to continue shitting your pants over a straw man?
All I said is it's not a fucking 4koma.
No one said it was. The post said it was composition, which is a factual statement. It's four panels arranged vertically, read top to bottom, popularly found in 4-koma.
Now what are the ones where it's 4 panels but they're arranged in a square and sometimes have little numbers indicating reading order?
The point is not that it makes it impossible. The point is that it makes it worse. If the reader has to consciously adjust the path of their eye across the page instead of being drawn across it by pointers it literally takes them longer to read the page and every time they have to readjust their vision they slightly lose focus on the work.
It is objectively better to compose pages such that the eye is naturally drawn across it instead of forcing readers to readjust every time they finish a panel.
For comparison's sake, if you were given the choice between a book where every line is single-spaced and the same book where every line is triple-spaced, which would you choose? How bout reading a webtoon page by page or scroll? Disruptions of visual flow are BAD and readers would avoid them given the choice which is why it's on artists to avoid making them in the first place.
Osaka's so dumb I love her
Anon, it's a fucking full page and you literally just need to stick a prominent object in the right of the panel pointing to the next like the dude in the bottom panel holding the gun pointing to the previous panel if you're gonna pull this lazy ass bullshit. Don't give me that shit. Having the last object the eye would trace across point to the next panel so the eye is properly redirected is a common cheat.
They aren't fucking starved for space as if this were an actual 4-koma. WHICH BY THE WAY CAN STILL FUCKING MANAGE THIS BASIC FUCKING BULLSHIT.
anon I'm curious, did you study this stuff? are you a working artist?
If by studied this stuff you mean took a 9th grade multimedia elective that included 2D composition in the course like 2 decades ago and have picked up other shit here and there casually since, then yes.
Like this is high school level bullshit. And I know for a fact mangaka use this shit. Which is why when I see comic artists not doing it I get pissed.
No it’s not anon, 4-Koma are literally just comic strips, which both have panels that are the same width and height
Fuck this is such a boring page. Dialogue crammed into as few panels as possible, bland faces making as little expression as possible with stagnate poses. That serious face when Jimmy is teasing Maggie. Why? He should be more playful. And he and Maggie can at least look at each other.
Look at this page. The varying angels and distances, the expressive characters, dialogue is quick and snappy, no one is staring dead at the camera to talk. Manga is good about doing this too (even headshot panels are at least expressive), but comics don't need to learn from manga they can look at their own past.
What’s funny is that good composition is something Stan himself stressed
Huh, weird. With just these white rectangles my eyes naturally read it in the order of 1,3,2,4, but in this actual comic
I read it 1,2,3,4.
Scott McCloud talks about the flow in one of his books, and he mentions something very similar to your example.
I don't feel like your order looks right. The rule is first left-to-right, then up-to-down. With just those empty panels, I would read it as 1,3,2,4. However, if the artist uses proper tricks to guide the eye (such as speech bubble placement), it can still easily be read in the order you're suggesting.
>The rule is first left-to-right, then up-to-down.
It isn't. It is NEITHER left-to-right first nor up-to-down first. A lot of people have been failed. You can see how this matters by doing a 3 panel vs 4 panel comparison. See, in this pic. 1>2 is left-to-right before up-to-down. However, in 12>13 up-to-down is done before left-to-right.
The actual rule is just follow the edges right and up from the left edge of the page with a preference toward up until you get to a panel you haven't read yet. You're going by the edges, not the panels. That's why 1>2 and 12>13 are different. Panel 15 breaks the edge from 12 to 16.
#1. Fiction is fictional
Get over that and you can at least have something.
Here a list from last year in April for sales in Japan.
I can picture how every fucking worthless gay hired at a big company would think about these.
>This hetero normative family dynamic aspect in this spy story is kind of problematic
>These teenagers should be talking about social media and pushing progressive values, they need to be black and gay
>Why do all these female characters have hourglass figures, that sends such a negative message about body image
>I don't know about all this Nazi looking stuff in this time travel story, it seems really antisemitic
>This guy turned into a kid makes his relationship with his childhood friend kinda sus
The fact of that is
#2. Don't have "employees"
You hire talent that has a story that readers want to read.
You do note hire a fucking echo chamber of out of touch liberals to work on stories for characters they didn't create and is often just them uncreatively bitching about whatever was in the news months ago that insulted their gay ideology
Are those sales drops really as brutal as they look?
They're all for series that had a volume release the prior month.
So yes or no? I don't get it
West can't copy east on #2 because we (rightfully) aren't willing to slave THAT hard, even on things we enjoy doing.
No westerner is going to be doing 80 hour weeks for years on end until they hopefully get enough clout to perma-hiatus because the are self sustaining from royalties. And that's if they are lucky!
>West can't copy east on #2 because we (rightfully) aren't willing to slave THAT hard
If you're not willing to put in the work for your life's passion then all that means is that you don't have much passion to begin with.
Huge different between putting in work for your life's passion and figuratively and some cases literally dying for it.
If I work towards something for basically my entire life you can bet your ass I'm going to work myself to near-death for it.
Either you have the passion or you don't.
>hurr i'm mad about politics, let me make something up to screech at
>snowflake shits himself about things that didn't happen
wow i can't believe this shocking development
I also can't believe Haikyuu is still there. It ended two years ago and hasn't had an anime propping it up.
How the fuck is Mid Piece above Dragon Ball by that much wtf
I'm surprised Dragon Ball Super is even on the list.
People like pirates.
There's straight people and sexy women in comics, you're one to talk about echo chambers how about forming opinions of your own instead of comicsgate YouTubers, schizo.
Did you reply to the wrong post?
what does that have to do with what that anon is saying?
Do people in charge of comics know the difference between fiction and reality?
because it certainly looks like they don't, and also why the fuck do they hate escapism so much? what's wrong with just giving people something pleasant to read so they don't have to think about something horrible in their lives for a few minutes or even hours?
i personally think this is the main problem with the current entertainment industry in the US.
No offense, but sexy women in comics are boomer-sexy, it's like comparing Betty Boop to Jessica Rabbit.
Have fun with your concept/characters.
Comics are too afraid of offending soccermoms and zoomer Karens to do something weird or fun or fucked up.
It's just all so safe, gimme more shit like Prison Pit or Megg, Mogg, and Owl or Demon and less of these boring TV pitches made to be palatable to annoying cunts.
A lot of modern comic artists could really use a lesson on paneling and staging. They have a month to shit out what a weekly manga-ka have to do in a week, and they do less pages then a monthly artist. There's no excuse for the lazy shit we see. Also compressing dialogue so there's less on page and the art speaks for itself.
Most importantly though I think capeshit could benefit from not writing for a trade. Manga-ka will end arcs and stories and just move on to the next and the chapters will be collected in order regardless of where the story starts and stops. If you put volume numbers on your trades people can collect them in order and just read the stories. It's okay if one bleeds into another, or if you have two or three 1-2 issue stories after a longer storyline. The days of only publishing specific longer arcs is dead the trade-writing can die with it.
Gonna try to give decent answers instead of the same tired japan based USA woke stuff.
>There's a lot of manga that's about a certain hobby or field of interest that the mangaka is seriously into or researched just for the manga. Think sports manga or even certain niche historical manga. A comic book about a subject the author is really into would be a lot better than a comic trying to ride the current trend or do the same multiverse infinity crisis event story for the millionth time
>A lot of manga are about progression in various forms. There are stories about badass OP superheroes who change and develop as characters over the course of the series, often in world-view, just as there are stories of characters who go from weak to strong. A lot superhero stories don't tell this kind of story because they are more interested in the relationships between the superhero and other supervillains and superheroes, which is not necessarily a bad thing, but more really good well-done origin stories, like Batman Year One, would be appreciated
>A lot of manga are very, very funny. With the exception of webcomics, Dav Pilkey, and Bongo! comics comedy is kind of dead genre in American comics and must be revitalized
>Many great manga got their start from doujinshi. A healthier and more robust indie comics scene could potentially lead to a similar outcome
>Very few comics follow young adult or child characters that aren't YA or trying to make a political statement.
>Too many comics are trying to be deconstructions, often politically/culturally motivated. There's nothing with a deconstruction, but I'm tired of seeing SpiderMan get divorced because "in real life the guy doesn't always get the girl chud!" People should have the right to have heroism and escapism without constant deconstruction or forced pathetic protagonists
>There's a lot of 'rule in cool' in manga: cool robots, cool monsters, cool outfits, cool super moves, etc...but comics seem genuinely averse to this, especially in character design
>It's better to have a beautifully illustrated black and white story to an ok illustrated color story
>American women love shoujo heroines and American men love shounen tough guys, but for some reason we never see these kinds of characters in comics unless explicitly referenced or parodied. Why not make characters like these without the irony?
>Too many comics are being sold as: "You've seen the movie, NOW read the comic!" when they're completely different than their adaptations. This marketing has to be deterring readers.
>A lot of manga are very, very funny.
Most manga are unfunny.
American comics have a similar but worse problem, where they try to be funny sometimes, with quirky quips, and they end up being extremely irritating to the point that I drop every book that does this.
>Too many comics are trying to be deconstructions
The problem is that this is a marketing ploy. It's kind of a nonsense term. Very, very few comics have actually attempted deconstruction.
Respect the readers
Give the readers what they want
No Mary Sue
Classic costumes always present and not realistic tactical military costumes like Huntress is wearing
Creative action scenes
No Woke shit
Plots that last 6/8 months that can be animated like anime does
And always have the best artists and writers
Just make good comics lmao.
Couldn't be me.
This site's mascot comes from a manga. As a result, manga>comics.
This site's most far reaching meme comes from a comic. So comics > manga.
I’ve seen more discussions about Yotsuba’s manga than Pepe’s comic
And we actually make our own Pepe comics.
you make cancer
You wanna sell? don't shy away from boobs.
Wanna have strong female characters? Have millions of them.
Just don't shy away from boobs.
A woman can be strong and show boobs.
Boobs make men and lesbians pay attention.
When men stop jacking off to boobs sighting, they start thinking why they like the character.
This make them more attached to her.
With emotional connection, you build a fanbase.
Suddenly your female character not only is strong and empowered but also has a fanbase of loyal fans.
All because you didn't shy away from boobs.
Simple as that.
By that your logic Zenescope would be topping charts
I don't recall any sexy teenagers in most of Zenescope's stuff.
Do you what I hate about modern comics? The colors. They’re always so ugly
Who the fuck thought this insipid washed out shit was a good idea?
The same artist who drew the image. It was given to another colorist originally and he hated how it turned out.
Sadly Brian Bolland. You should watch the Cartoonist Kayfabe episode where he shittalks the original colors and Ed and Jim have to pretend to agree with him
>You should watch the Cartoonist Kayfabe episode
Wow, haven't watched this dude in over a year and he actually has normal introductions now. Used to be like a solid 2 minutes of wigger cringe.
Manga is full of trash writing but weebs will never admit this because this is all about “My stuff is better than yours!” posturing
Manga might be full of trash but do you know the difference between American trash and Japanese trash? Japanese trash sells. A lot. Why is that? Clearly Japanese trash is doing something right.
Because weebs don’t care about quality they care about pandering
Are you unironically suggesting that American comic fans care about quality? The same gays that are still keeping ASM as a top seller?
Your butthurt about MJ doesn’t change the fact it’s an entertaining Spider-man comic
It's a shit comic. Nothing to do with MJ. What kind of comic has to rely on the death of a completely unrelated character to give some value to its story? A really really shitty one.
Nah, you just have poor taste
You're crazy. That shit is horrible.
More OGNs and storylines written for trades.
Today I shall remind them...
This applies to Naruto too.
Maybe to One Piece too until the Netflix shit ruins it's record
It has been rebooted more or less tho, at least the anime.
>Anime-only Dragon Ball GT series is in a weird expanded universe situation where it's not canon with respect to the manga but is acknowledged in expanded universe materials like Dragon Ball Heroes and fighting games.
>Dragon Ball Z anime had a lot of anime-only filler content. American version had a horrible weird space music soundtrack and voice actors making up their own lines (changing the characterization and motivations of characters in the process). Eventually the series got overhauled into Dragon Ball Kai which removed all the filler, non-canon material, and added in a new soundtrack (though due to a plagiarism scandal we actually ended up with different soundtracks in different TV broadcasts and in the Blu-Ray release).
>None of the Dragon Ball movies are canon except the Dragon Ball Super movies and those exist in a weird place where the anime will probably re-adapt them anyways. Some movie-only characters like Broly have been rebooted.
>Anime and Manga have lots of differences, making them kind of exist in separate canons.
Also, most importantly, Goku doesn't really view himself as a hero. All he wants to do is fight strong warriors. The "hero" characterization in the west is just due to ad-libbed lines by the western voice actors. The only reason he spares his enemies is because he wants to fight them again when they come back stronger. When Chichi is trying to seduce Goku in Dragon Ball he thinks "doing something fun" is fighting and tries to punch her.
Really, the reasons Dragon Ball is so popular is due to how interesting the art style is and how simple and approachable the characters are. Superman on the other hand is super weird because he's not really a character so much as a character archetype.
>It has been rebooted more or less tho, at least the anime
moron filler is not a reboot. If you want to talk Dragon Ball reboots, there's DBZ Kai and Evolution, and I'd argue the former could just be considered an alternative edit.
Word spacing in speech bubbles. I don't like how western comics cram them so full. A good margin improves readability.
Now. A slightly different question. Let’s say that both manga and comics would have follower each other’s market model since their inception. Would the best of comics and manga have been created in this situation?
Honestly the big issues is franchises vs stories.
Like, I was a bit confused when I first got into Evangelion - do I watch 1.0 first, or the show? Is End of Evangelion the absolute ending, should I watch it last?
I had to look it up (it’s the show, one movie is a recap of the show, End is the conclusion of that, and the other movies are a remake/alternate version of that story).
That’s like, the most difficulty I’ve ever had getting into an anime or manga. By contrast, I only like Batman because I grew up reading/watching Batman content. An outsider would have no idea where to start
You pick up what you find interesting and then you read it. You choose to make it difficult.
I find stories with clear beginnings and endings interesting
Then go read a book.
I find illustrated storytelling interesting
What are comics (capeshit or non cape shit) you like? Personally I like Bruce timms work a lot
I'm a full-blown Chris Ware fag.
In an alternate universe where superheroes never got popular how does the american comic market look like?
Mostly dead and relegated to a few indie books and young adult graphic novels. Newsstands dying really put the skids in the industry, and even before shitty mafia run distribution stilted newsstands.
Take a look at the comics landscape before the thrice-cursed Comics Code. There were cowboy comics, thriller comics, sci fi comics, horror comics, romance comics, war comics; any and all genre you could think of could be found. It was the Big Two that pushed for the Comics Code so they could strangle their competition (other companies in general and specifically EC Comics) and flood the market with their unreadable pigswill.
Did manga have a Comics Code equivallent?
Tits and ass sell. Stop drawing man-faced women.
Now this thread can finally die.
Stop forcing woke ideologies and re writing the same characters story a million fucking times over
Try to appeal to the people actually buy the comics instead of the imaginary woke audience?
The publishers have significant blame here, even without going into the quality of the works themselves.
Beyond that, Japan's paneling is decades ahead of American comics. American comics desperately need to start taking notes of how the popular manga write action. Dragon Ball and early One Piece have some amazing paneling and choreography and they're some of the biggest IPs on the planets, selling millions of volumes regularly. Japan's manga artists have been learning from them for several generations at this point, American artists need to take note.
Some people think anime has no politics .
The most popular anime has no politics
>in before Wan Piss
The politics of One Piece are so vague and centrist that they end up not saying anything at all.
And that's a good thing.
American media is always preachy now. They have a clear bias, and through the narrative they want you to pick their position. I'm not even necessarily just talking about left vs right. The writers decide that this or that hero will go about something this or that way. And they expect you to agree that the hero is ultimately, usually, right in the end for doing it. And you're supposed to agree with that because that's the story.
Meanwhile jap media may be centrist but that's the best way to appeal to the most people. There's a very simple moral position like "killing is wrong" or "selfishness is harmful" and then the rest of the narrative explores the nuance of the justifications between the bad guys and the good guys. You walk away more satisfied with the endings because they took extra care to thoroughly reason with the reader/viewer through the story. They almost never preach, they examine an entire case. All while focusing on a central, usually more apolitical narrative like wanting to find your dad or wanting to get your body human again.
It sounds just plain more interesting and entertaining to see the interaction between two sides of an issue demonstrated in a mature and honest way, where you can see yourself in the shoes of the side you disagree with, even though you don't necessarily like them.
>manga isn’t preachy
Give me a fucking break
I didn't say it was never preachy but statistically it is not. The majority of manga doesn't even bother with politics.
What you consider politics isn’t what counts as politics in Japan
Politics or ethics or morality all overlap in various subjective ways. But in my 30 years of causally reading manga and watching anime I can't think of a single time where I sensed the author was pushing me to agree with them just because they expect me to. If it happened it was so inconsequential it didn't matter to my enjoyment or it was from a series that was apparently forgettable.
Meanwhile every time I pick up comics or even watch lore heavy cartoons I end up skeptical about every decisions the narrative makes. If it's ever consistent at all and not just a patchwork of ideological messages.
>It didn’t trigger me because the local Japanese issues are foreign to my culture war brain
Yes, that was my point
Name some preachy titles then. Just because a story has some kind of anti-korea subtext or something doesn't make it preachy. A famous franchise like UC Gundam is literally about the ethics of war and yet they take care to make you at least partially sympathize with the other side instead of just preach about how evil the Earth Federation is.
Nta but I guess Freesia is quite insistent on how leaders use war as an excuse to control people
>a fact of life is preachy
But seriously, a few titles are to be expected, but politics in japan are highly impolite discussion to the point where you'd be lucky to get a straight answer about it out of most people you meet there. The popular titles shy away from picking a firm position to defend. Unlike in the west. Although there's some topics that are so irrelevant politically to them vs to us that they don't mind getting opinionated. Like with the church. They dunk on institutionalized religion often enough I guess. And still I gotta admit it can make for some very interesting conflict in stories about vampires and paganism even though I myself would disagree with some of it. Yet I never felt they were calling me, the viewer, a bad person if I participated in organized religion myself. And that's just called good writing.
>Although there's some topics that are so irrelevant politically to them vs to us that they don't mind getting opinionated. Like with the church. They dunk on institutionalized religion often enough I guess
This isn't really because religion is irrelevant. After the Aum Shinrikiyo gas attacks, Japanese society became a lot more skeptical of religion in general. Almost doesn't matter what the religion is, if you're 'too religious' in any direction then that's viewed with suHispanicion.
As it should be with most forms of extremism.
Fair enough, but not that many japs were ever into the idea to begin with either. The most common are Buddhism and "shinto" which isn't so much organized as it is just traditionalism and animism. Generally being "too much" about anything probably causes skepticism considering the whole WW2 thing and the historical fling ourselves off the cliff because we failed to get revenge for the child emperor shit. Ever since they became a westernized government they look back on that fanaticism with some embarrassment.
Catholic school for girls is an easy to find setting in shoujo just like it is in western books.
bro that's not preachy, what the fuck?
Say hello to Black Jack is a gigantic preaching ceremony about how Japanese healthcare system is awful.
Shigeru Mizuki’s manga about WW2 are quite preachy about the callousness and inhumanity of the military and how awful war is. Hell, Astro Boy had an entire anti-Vietnam war story made during said war.
Nausicaä is blatantly preaching you about environmentalism and respecting nature and how humans always fuck things up by trying to control nature.
Akira deals with wealth inequality, police brutality , etc. Hunter x Hunter has an entire arc about trans character. Fucking Death Note went out of its way to do a new Trump oriented story.
>without actively insulting and demeaning your audience, much less spitting in the face of the people who actually buy comics.
You people want to be victim and cry how oppressed you are because a comic has a racist be the bad guy.
Other than the first one and whatever that rent free Death Note rot is since I haven't seen them, these are all reaching. They explore those topics thematically but they aren't preaching at you about them. Shining a spotlight on an idea is not the same as imposing an ideology. I didn't have to sit through soap boxing about the trans struggles of Alluka. That character simply exists, the way trannies have existed in some form through all history. People like japanese chud characters more because of this approach. Akira never insists your personal government is bad. Nausica never tells you how to live, just to be considerate of the world you live in. These are not preaching, and if you can't spot the difference between how japan writes these things vs the west I just can't help you.
Not that original anon but your are exemplifying the exception that proves the rule especially since Miyazaki and Tezuka were actually criticised for their preachiness on Cinemaphile and on other places. They didn't got scot free like you probably imagine.
There's actually heavy criticism towards a lot of things in manga, but since the people against manga here never read it, it won't come up.
Preachiness from countries like japan is still objectively more tolerable than in the west right now where people are getting aggravated at the increasing amount of media that waggles a finger at them over everything.
>Well okay preachy manga exists
Thanks for admitting it
>Trump oriented story
lel gay you think that story was Trump oriented just because he appeared?
Not at all. The story was all about Minoru and his attempt to take advantage of the Death Note. If anything the message of that story is that you can't outsmart the devil no matter how intelligent you are. It's pretty fictional or at most religious in nature. It has nothing to do with politics.
Why would you make an entirely new extra story and use Trump? Give me a break. It’s exactly the type of shit people here love to cry about as DTS and how it’s automatically shit.
>and use Trump?
Because he was the president at the time. If you have read the story you know Trump is a very small part of the story and is there just to make the point clear that not even the most powerful country in the world can outsmart the devil. Like I said, there's nothing political about it. It's a religious theme.
I liked it when Trump was in Baki
So it was political in nature because it chose to acknowledge and use Trump in a story even though previous presidents in the manga were fictional. You could have just used another made up president, but the manga went out of its way to use Trump.
>if I can loosely relate it to politics it means the story is political
Isn't that what your type always complains about when right wingers claim gays and blacks being in a story make it political? I know you guys are hypocrites but come on
How is it apolitical to make a brand new story of the manga and then go out of your way to use a real life president for the story? Just by insisting it can’t be because uh using Trump can’t be political when he was in office even though every other use of Trump in media was always automatically bad and political attack against him.
A political thing mentioned in passing in a piece of media does not a political piece of media make.
The story features Trump prominently buying Death Note after a bidding war against Xi/China and then is too scared to actually take and use the note because it would kill him due to a new rule, so instead Trump just says he’ll just lie about having it. No matter how much you want to deny it, the story is intentionally painting Trump as a coward and a liar. If it was published in an American comic you would be complaining how political it was.
Why do you guys never address how much political messaging was in Bronze-Copper Age and 90s-00s comics? People already mentioned Claremont here but you could also mention Gerber, Byrne, Gruenwald, Moore, O'Neil and a ton of others. If you really wanna die on the hill that any comic that's not apolitical is trash that hates the fans then you're going to have to throw out quite a bit of the capeshit canon. The problem with tumblr era political writing is that usually it's lazy and doesn't have any work put into it.
It's never black and white. Even if you don't intend to put politics in your story a demented audience will still find a way to pick something out and complain. What it's really about is percentages and presentation. Modern stuff has a way higher proportion of politics and they're also presented amateurishly and without nuance. It's a deadly combination.
A lot of the old Bronze Age message stories are totally without nuance too, same with the political stories in Moore's Swamp Thing, same for Gruenwald Cap. There's no question of presenting both sides equally and recognizing that they both have valid points in most of those old political stories, that's rose tinted glasses.
The real difference imo is a difference in craft, this new generation of writers has no clue how to write an engaging comic, how to plot a decent story, or how to write decent dialogue. Wouldn't say this is true across the board obviously but art in capeshit has degenerated to a large extent too, there's an overreliance on digital and just often less care (or talent, one of the two) put into the work.
>Why do you guys never address how much political messaging was in Bronze-Copper Age and 90s-00s comics?
I don’t deny it though. Yeah, Bill Clinton was mentioned all the time in the 90s. So what? Obviously writers had politics in mind when doing it. You don’t just Willy Nilly put the current president in.
Nixon was literally a villain in Gruenwald Cap, Reagan gets made fun of in Legends. There were extremely preachy pro-gay storylines in 90s Green Lantern, a very preachy AIDS story in PAD Hulk. God Loves Man Kills is a very thinly disguised pro-gay story that demonizes religion. Not saying that there isn't more of it now and I'm definitely not saying that it isn't done more poorly now, it just annoys me when people act like heavy handed political preaching is some new thing in comics, it's not at all. And it's always been overwhelmingly left wing political preaching too (I'm not a left winger or an American sort of right winger btw so I really don't have too much of a dog in this fight).
What annoys me about that is the hidden implication that comics should be totally apolitical or should have an equal amount of preachy right wing messaging and that would somehow fix the industry. It's just not true and it's a distraction from the actual problems. Feels like both sides of the fandom, and industry people themselves, are going to keep running around in circles because of this culture war stuff, which will only keep everyone from accepting the kind of deeper changes you'd actually need to implement to fix things.
>that demonizes religion
Imagine thinking that Stryker represents "religion" in a comic where Nightcrawler is a devout Catholic
He represents 'organized religion', which for liberals means religion that actually demands to operate like religion historically did (and still largely does outside the West). 'Organized religion' is religion which demands a political, legal and cultural role for itself, especially a hegemonic one, but these days any role at all. Liberalism wants to confine religion to the 'private sphere'. So it's fine if Nightcrawler has some Catholic beliefs as long as he keeps those to himself and doesn't try to force them on anyone.
Can you name me one major capeshit story where an 'organized religion' is portrayed in unequivocally positive terms? Very very difficult, the portrayal of religion in comics is almost always that 'it's fine if you keep it to yourself' sort of thing or it's subversive (Kamala Khan not wearing hijab and showing her body) or it's outright hostile.
Stryker represents the slimy gospel evangelicals who do mega churches and preach hate. He does not represent organised religion as a whole.
And the separation of church and state is what makes media be against religious people trying to impose their faith into others and have their sky dictate how everyone can and should live
>And the separation of church and state
Yes I know, that's part of the Enlightenment liberal philosophy I was talking about. It's exactly when religion demands any kind of authority over the 'public sphere' (and this 'public sphere'/'private sphere' dichotomy was largely invented as a concept by Masonic secularists specifically to undermine religion) that liberals start becoming hysterical. But hey, if you want to pray in your own home nobody's going to stop you. Because that's all religion really is right, just something you do in private? It's not, it never has been. Religion has always had a social, legal, and political component, literally every major religion has. Even if it didn't, the fact that you as a religious person believe that God has shown humanity the best way to live and said going against that will lead to eternal consequences has obvious political implications. If you really believe that then wouldn't you want to legislate the best way to live and outlaw the things which will harm people forever? Even according to the harm principle secularism makes no sense unless you're an atheist.
Because time and time again we see that religion dictating how society and individuals have to act and if you don’t they come after you is not good for society or for the individual unless you’re a religious zealot and even then it’s up to chance.
That's my point though. If God exists and if He spoke to mankind and showed us what the right and wrong ways to act are, then the only sensical way to organize our societies is by organizing them based on what He's told us.
Secularism is completely illogical and unacceptable for any clear thinking and consistent religious person, Western Christians and 'spiritual not religious' people only think otherwise because they've had their brains polluted by liberalism for the last 300 years.
>Can you name me one major capeshit story where an 'organized religion' is portrayed in unequivocally positive terms?
Daredevil Born Again.
Exception that proves the rule. They're rare and it's much easier to find stories that touch on religion in a subversive, patronizing (this stuff is fake but it makes dumb people happy so let the idiots have it), or outright hostile way.
>can you find me an example of x
Okay fuck you then
>Feels like both sides of the fandom, and industry people themselves, are going to keep running around in circles because of this culture war stuff, which will only keep everyone from accepting the kind of deeper changes you'd actually need to implement to fix things.
This is a very weird assertion. Comic writers especially have very little power to change the industry. And fandom is completely delusional and in denial about what it pretends to want vs what it actually buys. It has nothing to do with culture wars, nor is it a distraction like you claim it to be.
It's a distraction from things like moving beyond the DM in a serious way, expanding into new markets and new languages in a serious way, diversifying publishing, cutting prices by any means necessary etc. Touche about the writers and fans not really being in the driver's seat but at least when it comes to the discussion around how to fix the industry, the culture war stuff really is a distraction. 'If everyone in comics agreed with my politics and if they had more/less fanservice then sales would be up' is delusional and it gets people stuck in weird ragebaiting and circlejerking behavior instead of looking at common sense solutions.
>If everyone in comics agreed with my politics and if they had more/less fanservice then sales would be up' is delusional
Who is saying this except conservatives/right wingers whining about comics being too woke? Comic writers certainly don’t say this.
>and it gets people stuck in weird ragebaiting and circlejerking behavior instead of looking at common sense solutions.
Again, the rage and circlejerk comes from one direction. And far too many people here have zero understanding of the industry and why it went to the DM, and have laughable and naive ideas how to fix it. The problem is entirely people not knowing anything about publishing and business and just going by “well I want X” or doing a nostalgia argument about how they liked that comics were in spinner racks.
>Who is saying this except conservatives/right wingers whining about comics being too woke? Comic writers certainly don’t say this.
And that's mostly who I was getting annoyed by. I'm the same person talking about the Enlightenment so as you can see I'm well to 'the right' (that dichotomy comes from the French revolution btw) than them but it's ahistorical and leads to cancerous behavior and bad thinking about business. But you do see the revers on comic book reddit for example, people who believe that more diverse representation will help sell comics.
>And far too many people here have zero understanding of the industry and why it went to the DM, and have laughable and naive ideas how to fix it. The problem is entirely people not knowing anything about publishing and business and just going by “well I want X” or doing a nostalgia argument about how they liked that comics were in spinner racks.
If the DM is really the end of the line then good luck because they're a horrible business model that is already dying and they rely on middle aged and old people who are already dying. American comics aren't picking up the amount of younger readers needed to have anything like a healthy industry in a few decades time. I don't think it's naive to want to outgrow an obsolete business model by any means necessary.
>But you do see the revers on comic book reddit for example, people who believe that more diverse representation will help sell comics.
Expanding your audience base will usually help sell your product, yes. And considering the demographic changes it makes sense as a long term strategy. No matter how much people insist representation doesn’t matter, it does.
And DM was necessary change decades ago if you know anything about how volatile and risky it was to sell from newsstands financially. It helped to make the business more efficient and stable in terms of money. Now due to several major shifts there is clearly need for another change but the issue is also that people do not read like they used to. Reading is not what people do for leisure and entertainment like they used to. It is a problem that goes beyond just comics.
>Expanding your audience base will usually help sell your product, yes.
Ah, yes, alienating half of your potential readers to chase that lucrative ebonic trans-lesbian market will sell more comics!
If having more diversity automatically alienates your existing base, then your base is bigoted and racist and it is accurate to call them that and it is a problem because of how bad it makes your company look.
Another problem with your simple minded approach to diversity and your simple minded concept of how to break into new markets is this. Some of the groups that don't read a lot of comics don't want to read about other groups. You're not going to break into the Muslim world (which btw actually does produce its own comics and read tons of manga) by putting homosexuals all over the place. Black people don't want to read about that stuff either, they're the most religious demographic in the USA. A comic which is seriously, intelligently tailored to the cultural specificity of hispanics is not going to appeal to lesbian women living in New York City. You need different sorts of comics for different sorts of people or you don't actually have diversity, you have something that's not going to please anyone.
Melting pot mentality, as if ethnocentric minority groups (not talking individuals) actually want to be mixed together with people who aren't their kin. A uniquely American kind of brain rot that some refer to as global homogenization. Well if you blend up every cultures food all you get is a disgusting blob nobody wants to eat. It's not sustainable.
Tldr keep comics white and heterosexual because bigots exist
Yeah, all those bigot white supremacist groups that anon existed like black lesbians and Muslims...
>Some of the groups that don't read a lot of comics don't want to read about other groups.
>btw these middle eastern religious Muslims read manga that’s almost entire about Japanese teenagers and have lewd content
I sensing a bit of a cognitive dissonance here backed by heavy bias and ideology
>>btw these middle eastern religious Muslims read manga that’s almost entire about Japanese teenagers and have lewd content
He's right on that one, there are tons of weebs in MENA.
He's also right that they generally don't want to read about gays.
A lot of people don’t like America so I guess we have to stop making Captain American comics
If you want to sell to those people who don't like America, yea, you probably shouldn't try to sell them Captain America comics.
This is what you're not understanding.
And you’re not understanding that bigots existing is not a valid reason to not have gays in your content. You’re starwmanning publishing into a zero sum game where racism is somehow more profitable instead of widest possible audience who aren’t obsessed about feeling victimised when Black Panther makes over billion dollars at the box office
>And you’re not understanding that bigots existing is not a valid reason to not have gays in your content.
Then don't complain when those bigots don't want to buy your stuff and choose to instead buy stuff that doesn't have gays in it.
I really want to know what planet you live on where the only reason people have a problem with "Supes is LE HOMOSEXUAL NOW so you'd better deal with it CHUDS" is because of bigotry, because it isn't Earth, and Krypton doesn't actually exist.
How is crying about a character being bisexual or bigotry when it’s accompanied by next to nothing but endless homophobia and bigoted rhetoric and hate?
If Superman being gay isn't a big deal, then why is it apparently newsworthy?
That was not my point though. Make as many Captain America comics as you want but don't expect them to sell like hot cakes in Russia. Make homosexual comics if that's really what you want to do but don't expect the third world or black Americans to be cheering for more. I was talking about recognizing your audience's tastes and not even starting a 'is homosexuality wrong' debate.
Who the fuck was saying we have to sell more comics in Middle East? Kamala can attract readers in the west among Muslim readers. The entire butthurt argument that Kamala is an affront to muslims and will not appeal to anyone is ridiculous, especially when you presuppose that Christians can’t want to read about Kamala as well
Not him, but now you've literally made the point that these minority characters do not exist to appeal to the actual minorities these characters represent, but liberal white people who want to feel good about reading about "alternative" individuals.
Which is why manga will continue to be more popular among non-whites than comics.
Maybe learn to read because I said that if religious fundamentalists can’t read Kamala that doesn’t stop Muslims in the west from reading them, as they’re more secular, especially considering how Iraq and Saudi Arabia are not the primary fucking market for Marvel comics while. American domestic market is and there’s plenty of Muslims who do not froth from the mouth when they see a female
Muslim hero. Your entire mindset about this is absolutely insane and idiotic.
>that doesn’t stop Muslims in the west from reading them
Bro, many Muslims in the west also dislike gay liberalism, nearly as much as the ones in MENA.
This is why I don't read capeshit, it's an entire industry acting like every other race is just going to be a carbon-copy of whites and believe all the same shit white people believe, and this permeates the entire fucking comic industry.
THIS is why I prefer manga, this exact fucking mindset.
And this too. Muslims in the US are pretty westernized but they're still going to be well to the right of whatever Brooklyn hipster queer scene stuff like Jon is being written for.
And many Muslims don’t. Stop arguing like they one unified group with one single view on everything. Or maybe I should just start acting like you and say every white person is racist and that’s why comics need to change because you’re the minority and don’t deserve representation. Hey this is fun!
>And many Muslims don’t.
Hate to tell you this dude, but they're the minority, most Muslims are still quite religious and not fond of gays.
>Or maybe I should just start acting like you and say every white person is racist
Go for it, I'm not white anyways.
Cope, seethe, dilate etc. Muslims don't want the lifestyle you're selling, almost nobody outside of the West does. Even Europeans consider the trans thing a weird American import.
Okay, let’s censor comics and make all women wear burkas and men worship Allah. This way we sell more product
Yeah why not? You said at the beginning of our debate that this was about giving new audiences which don't read American comics stuff they wanted to see right? You said it was about improving sales right?
Which brings it all the way back to my initial point about how this fixation on American culture war issues gets in the way of good business, both for the comicsgate side and the woke side.
I like how you're basically just throwing a tantrum because you don't want to admit that not everyone likes or wants to read the same things.
And this is why comics will never be able to compete with manga, both the industry and the people who consume them just can't admit that not everyone wants to see the same stuff.
Nobody is forcing you to red anything you don’t want. What is childish is throwing tantrums and whine about being oppressed because now there’s a black or gay or Asian or trans character and it really hurts your feelings when someone says you are a bigot when you get upset that media representation shows these people in fiction rather than censors their existence to placate your paper thin skin.
>Nobody is forcing you to red anything you don’t want.
Right, which is why I don't read many comics.
Now we're getting somewhere.
>Nobody is forcing you to red anything you don’t want.
>Readers read a famous comic series
>Write for comic
>Insert own personal bullshit into it
>"Don't like it? Don't read it!"
>Readers stop reading and start importing other comics
>"What the fuck how could this be happening to me?!?"
>nobody is forcing you to read anything you don't want
<hey, maybe we can make comics that are acceptable to this demographic. you might virulently disagree with them but it would sell
>autistic screeching about hate and fundamentalism
Nobody's forcing us to read what you want to read but if we want other sorts of things to be written then it's the end of the world and we must be a Nazi because you can't accept that the noble savages might actually not want to buy what you're selling (in terms of comic books and more broadly).
What is it with you redditfags? Every time you lose an argument, you try to bitch with this kind of strawman of "sure. Okay. Wow. You just want [opposite radical to one you want]. Okay."
It's disingenuous and bloody fucking annoying to read.
What, I just agree with you. You made a great point.
Do you know how many Muslims are in the US? 6 million roughly, there are more American garden gnomes. Muslim communities in Europe are a lot less liberalized than those in the US and you're going to lose readers with them by writing stuff like Kamala too. But even there and even assuming that they're all waving pride flags and begging for secular liberalism to be bombed (or punched or energy blasted) into their homelands or whatever, look at the actual percentage of the European population that they make up. Now look at the population of Muslims in MENA, in the Pacific, in the Subcontinent. You see why it's obvious that you don't actually care about markets here and just want to shove alphabet people down everyone's throats?
>Who the fuck was saying we have to sell more comics in Middle East
NTA, but your entire point of representation was trying to assert that it creates a demand for comics of the character's demographic. Anon's just tying this back to a real-world example, so relinquishing that this doesn't matter defeats your argument.
He’s strawmanning and intentionally asserting all people who aren’t white are bigots and wouldn’t want to read about X. It’s a completely non factual generalisation to make their own hate for such characters feel justified
Well they shouldn't read that either and hopefully they try to avoid it. But that reminds me of another idea about how to expand into a new market that these companies will never ever seriously consider. Why not write actually religiously acceptable comics? It would be as easy as what I said about LatAm. All you'd have to do is replace the eyes with letters, not put debauchery all over the page, and tell stories that resonate with religious Muslims and there you go, massive new audience and the world maybe hates America a little less. But no, we get Kamala Khan and Dust or whatever her name was.
You could even make calligraphic comics which are non-representational but still tell stories. And there are similar out of the box ideas for other demographics which just don't get considered at all.
>Why not write actually religiously acceptable comics?
Maybe because religious fundamentalism isn’t a good way sell more product.
Why not? Why can't it be good in terms of sales even if you disagree with it? There are already businesses that make money by selling halal versions of products which are usually haram, it just hasn't penetrated to entertainment yet.
Because bending over backwards to censor your content is not a good business model.
>durr wokeness is a religion
Spoken like a brain rotted chud
I am not the one making constant threads whining that gays or black people exist. That’s your kind that does it.
>I am not the one making constant threads whining that gays or black people exist.
I'm literally black you dumbfuck.
And I generally don't make threads on /toon/ at all.
Well aren’t you a special snowflake on this board
>BUT IT WAS ON THE NEWS!!!
Oh my God what are you, sixty years old? It’s news because it’s media company synergy. Get a life if this is your reason to be upset.
>S-S-SHUT UP BOOMER!
Cry more, moron.
You can't have it both ways between "this detail is inconsequential" and "this detail is worthy of highlighting."
Now, let's add in a follow-up question:
Besides representation, what does a gay Superman add to the story?
>Boomer can’t even read
Answer the question.
That's art, you retard.
>Redditspacer denies wokeness is a religion
It's a cult. It operates exactly like a cult.
>Because bending over backwards to censor your content is not a good business model.
Movies already do it and it leads to enormous sales, look at the market for Hollywood blockbusters in China.
Exactly what the other guy said. If you're serious about wanting to expand into new markets then write things that those markets want to see even if you find those things weird or foreign or boring or even disagreeable. Otherwise don't try to claim that you actually support diversity in publishing or that you're seriously supporting expanding to new markets. Trying to score political points in the American culture war is not something that's going to sell comics outside the US and it doesn't matter for which team you're trying to score the points.
>No hate and censorship sells more!
Okay I am officially done talking with you
Censoring your product literally does sell more if you want to get it into a certain market and won't be able to do so unless you censor certain aspects of it. You don't care about business at all, you're an ideologue.
Okay so /toon/ now officially supports censorship. Glad we settled this and can’t start erasing all the racist and offensive movies, cartoons and comics
I was talking about making new comics which are acceptable for a certain audience. The China example was an inexact one that I used in order to show you that actually compromising on 'artistic freedom' does make big money sometimes, China is a bigger market for Hollywood than the US today.
What I was talking about before we got to that point is making comics which religious Muslims can read by keeping to clean themes and content and obeying the rules about representational art. Saying that nobody should ever do that because 'hate is wrong' is actually not being a defender of artistic freedom it's saying that that freedom only goes one way. 'Religious fundamentalists' (i.e. religious people who take their religion seriously) don't and shouldn't get artistic freedom according to you or at least that seems like the implication.
>Maybe because religious fundamentalism isn’t a good way sell more product
Hence why people don't like wokeshit.
>religious fundamentalism isn’t a good way sell more product
pretty weak argument since plastering lgtbbqs and racebends everywhere doesn't either yet here we are
>Followed by strawman greentext
And it's pretty funny that most of the r/comics crossposters here keep getting pissy because of people associating capeshit with comics (can't imagine why, given what the big two make, or anything), then turn around and spout this schizo generalization that manga is for pedophiles (despite not having any grounding other than their own unitonic racism).
>You don't like superheroes being used to scream BLM? Well, then you're obviously a racist!
Holy shit retard. Actually have a nice day. I'm not playing that up for Cinemaphile-branded edginess, we genuinely need fewer retards like you in the world.
If half of your reader base is allegedly racist, if you're that worried about interacting with the "irredeemable deplorables" or whatever, then why ride that branding anyway?
Oh, right, because you know what this shit is: it's turning an aspect of culture into preaching a godless religion, and you don't care because you agree with it.
Jump off a bridge and livestream it.
Holy insecurities and projection, Batman!
>If you're worried about racists, then why are you getting into an industry that attracts them?
>HoLy PrOjEcTiOn bAtMaN!!!!
If your existing base isn't enough to support your industry, taking the gamble to get more readers even if it means sacrificing half your existing base is objectively a necessary call. If you do nothing, you lose. If you take the risk you MIGHT lose, but you also might come out ahead.
>taking the gamble to get more readers
And do you think that adding more black gays and transsexuals to your comics is how you're going to get black people to want to read them more instead of just reading manga?
>taking the gamble to get more readers even if it means sacrificing half your existing base is objectively a necessary call
What an extremely retarded take.
>Expanding your audience base will usually help sell your product
Yes I agree but putting a bunch of minorities in the same old capeshit and acting like it's an amazing leap forward for culture to do so is not going to win new demographics. Why do people assume that all hispanics or blacks or homosexuals or women or Muslims want to see is 'representation'? Why do they assume that groups which aren't traditionally heavy readers of comics don't want to see fundamentally different sorts of comcs? Look at how other forms of entertainment vary from culture to culture, these are not serious attempts to expand the audience, they're just slapping a bunch of corny and hollow diversity onto the same old slop that nobody outside a certain demo in America cares about.
>And DM was necessary change decades ago if you know anything about how volatile and risky it was to sell from newsstands financially. It helped to make the business more efficient and stable in terms of money. Now due to several major shifts there is clearly need for another change but the issue is also that people do not read like they used to. Reading is not what people do for leisure and entertainment like they used to. It is a problem that goes beyond just comics.
Actual books are doing fine and there was a big upsurge in sales of them during 2020 that has slowed down (predictably) but hasn't gone away. If the only problem is print dying then you'd expect to see manga, prose and nonfiction dying at the same rate or at least a comparable rate as American comics but that's not true and some print media is not even dying at all.
>Why do people assume that all hispanics or blacks or homosexuals or women or Muslims want to see is 'representation'?
Because people like to feel represented. This is a fact. Look how much white people are now freaking out when they don’t dominate media in representation 99% of the time. Marvel and DC are capeshit companies, they produce capeshit. Why would they make sports comics when it is not what people expect and want from them? You have to stop this idiotic mindset where DC/Marvel are all comics. They aren’t. They are just the biggest publishers with the biggest audience who wants very limited type of comics. And it isn’t like DC and Marvel don’t try to expand, it is the FANDOM that repeatedly refuses to support that expansion.
>Because people like to feel represented
And why should I consider Kamala Khan a serious attempt to represent me instead of a cheap, slimy attempt to redefine my religion without even bothering to tell me a different sort of story than the kind that appeals to the usual comic book audience? It really does not take a genius to figure out how to do serious representation and break seriously into new markets. Want to break into LatAm? Study what the LatAm entertainment environment looks like and take an especially long look at their comics. Then hire ideally local creators and give them complete freedom to tell the kinds of stories that they think will sell to that audience because they'll know better than someone sitting in an office in New York or California. Same thing for MENA, same thing for alphabet people, same thing for continental Europeans.
Instead, what 'representation' looks like is assuming that Hispanics just don't know they love the slop you've been putting out yet, that what's stopping them is that they haven't met Capitano Taco Queso yet. It's patronizing and it's cheap.
This post just reeks of butthurt that diversity exists in spaces where you don’t want to see anything but white people
>You have to stop this idiotic mindset where DC/Marvel are all comics. They aren’t. They are just the biggest publishers with the biggest audience who wants very limited type of comics. And it isn’t like DC and Marvel don’t try to expand, it is the FANDOM that repeatedly refuses to support that expansion.
I agree with this too, I prefer indies and don't like the fandom but what the Big 2 do is important for what the rest of the American industry will have to do. And in the popular mind, it seems like Marvel and DC are American comic books. The reality is that there's more variety in indies now than there used to be in the 'good old days' but that still hasn't translated into a very competitive industry.
>Expanding your audience base will usually help sell your product, yes.
No offense, but I can pretty much guarantee that faaaar more black, Hispanic, and Asian people read manga than comics.
Speaking from personal experience.
>you're going to have to throw out quite a bit of the capeshit canon
don't threaten me with a good time
a) they didn't make a brand new story just to put Trump in it. They did it because they had a story to tell.
b) Trump wasn't an important part of the story at all. Neither his politics were mentioned. He just happened to be the president while the story happened. It could be any other president and the story would be the same.
To further the point. The story also shows Xi Jin Ping and Shinto Abe. Not because they wanted to talk about their politics but because they were the ones in office at the time.
Oh yea Trump just magically had to appear in the story coincidetally. OBVIOUSLY using other world leaders as well means it can’t be political! GTFO
Again. Said leaders aren't a factor in the story at all. No mention of their politics or even about themselves.
Again, it could've been any president there and the story would be exactly the same.
There was just one president shown in previous stories and it had a resemblance to Bush who was the President at the time. So no, it wasn't really a deliberate choice.
Holy shit dude, you are desperate.
Let's break it down for you, retard:
Acknowledging that politics exists =/= centering your story and narrative around a political message
>Why would you make an entirely new extra story and use Trump?
Because the American president happened to be a character who showed up in the story?
Same reason a Trump expy shows up in Candy & Cigarettes (pic related).
>Doesn't actually address anon's argument
>"Ur juzt triggered"
Dogshit reply from a dogshit poster.
You absolutely can be preachy and still make fun, commercial comics. The problem with modern comics is not plain progressists, is the absolute lack of either craft or soul.
Hell, Uncanny X-Men used to be the number 1 seller in America, and Chris Claremont is as clumsy, preachy, cringy as it gets- but he still had genuine care for every single character and it shows.
Nowadays Disney is simply unable to squeeze that level of love out of anyone, and every time they go woke it really feels like desperate pandering- with mangaka, when they get preachy (and there are absolutely tons of otherwise great series with embarrasing social commentary) at least you get the feeling that they really de believe and care about whatever the hell they're saying.
Sounds like he was more interested in the characters and narrative than the ideological messaging. Crazy how that works, thats only how we've been as humans for all of history outside of religion.
Manga isn’t preachy
There’s entire series centred around preaching why things like bullying disabled people is bad. Why mistreating the victims of the atom bomb is deHispanicable. Tons of anti-war stuff.
>bullying disabled people is bad.
Japan has a very long and terrible history when it comes to discrimination against disabled people. They also have huge bullying problems in schools. Making a story related to societal ills like that are political in Japanese context. It wasn’t that long that they still had physical abuse of children as legal.
The fact that you try to dismiss them as whatever they mean nothing goes to show how people here have an extremely narrow and completely western focused idea of what can be political and fail utterly to recognise and understand how foreign countries and their cultural and historical context dictates what societal norms and views are potentially controversial and highly politicised.
>Japan has a very long and terrible history when it comes to discrimination against disabled people. They also have huge bullying problems in schools.
Based. Weak and disabled should be driven to suicide so that more resources can utilized on the viable.
>But what about their feefees?
Give me a break, we boil lobsters alive and they not only likely are conscious but also have same or possibly even greater capacity for suffering than we do and nobody in his right mind gives a shit.
> They also have huge bullying problems in schools.
This is literally how humanity works. Teenagers can be unpredictable, nothing political about that.
>Japan has a very long and terrible history when it comes to discrimination against disabled people. They also have huge bullying problems in schools.
Bro, you're describing every country on the planet there.
Only sheltered suburban Karens think disabled kids didn't get bullied in school in America.
i can go an entire manga or anime and see one random political satire maybe during the equivalent of the end of the story or during an filler arc thats quickly forgotten yet with a western comic it’d be taking up the entire story from start to finish and be plot significant.
i don’t think thats even remotely comparable.
I don't know what kind of manga you read but mainstream popular manga isn't preachy at all. Dragon Ball isn't preachy. Naruto isn't preachy. Not even One Piece is preachy no matter how much some gays trannies wishes it was.
One Piece's big anti-racism message boils down to
>some people are just assholes for no reason
And it's pretty based
Yeah, the best part of One Piece is that it doesn't make distinctions about sides when they touch subjects like racism. After all, the supposed minorities had Arlong who was a guy that was unapologetically an asshole. No 'dindunuffin' crowd can take his side since his actions came from pure racism towards the other side.
>Let me list shounen jump titles
Every. Fucking. Time.
>NOOOOOOOOO YOU'RE DISPROVING MY POINT WITH ACTUAL EXAMPLES NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
got anything else to say outside of crying like a bitch?
Hire mangakas to draw and write comics
They do that. You still whine and the sales aren’t any higher
>They do that.
Peach Momoko? I think she sells pretty well though
Ooh I like her shit, why isn't she working on flagship characters?
Why does that matter
I don't care about star wars so I'm not going to read star wars even if the art is good
Why would she tie herself down to a big character when she wouldn't own it, wouldn't have control over the plot, would have to put up with micromanaging editors, and would probably end up making way less money than what she can do doing way easier variant covers? There's no real reason for anyone with talent to want to engage with Marvel more than the bare minimum. That's why most comics are drawn by either fanboys or cheap Brazilians
Nihei did Wolverine
Problem is that the people in charge still has American comics mentality. Therefore even if you hire the best manga writer of all time, there's little he will be able to do with so many shackles.
Wishful thinking. At best they'll hire mangakas to do cover and interior art to trick you into buying utter horseshit drawn by spastics. Case in point: Gurihiru and the Unreadable Squirrel Girl.
draw more complex combats with continuous scenes and not combats so simple that they seem drawn by children.
They'd need to learn how to depict motion and impact instead of drawing every character in soullessly static poses.
The Japanese can draw combat with full scenes that look like animation frames, why can't we do the same?
Say what you want about the manga, but you can't deny that Japanese comics have better fights.
As great as these look, I dropped OPM a while ago. It's not entertaining anymore.
The thing is, you can carry a message without actively insulting and demeaning your audience, much less spitting in the face of the people who actually buy comics. It's something that western comics writers haven't caught on for the better part of the last two decades because they're bitter, unhappy people who hate comics, hate their readers and hate themselves.
I just hate the smug witty one liners, quips, and all the flirty stuff
I hate those cheeky grins
comic characters are always so irritating with their lack of autism
Ongoing genre stories. Particularly action-adventure not tied to a preexisting property. And made easily and cheaply available.
silence chuds! Your bigoted opinions are wrong and outdated
Do more wild, weird shit.
Comics are just too safe, the only ones that aren't are internet comics and indie Fantagraphics-tier stuff that's never going to be relevant in the industry at large.
Meanwhile even something as popular as Chainsaw Man is full of all sorts of weird shit, like beating the antagonist by chopping them up, cooking them, eating them, and shitting them out.
>do some weird shit
>what if weapon arms
woah! nobody has ever thought of that
>What if cannibalism
Woah! Slow down getting too crazy for my western brain, it might just explode
Nta but our video games, especially indie stuff, can do it and are enjoyed worldwide so he's right. Comic writers just don't have the creative freedom or maybe ability to wow people the way our games do. Manga vs vidya is a way more fair fight
>Comic writers just don't have the creative freedom
Dude, publishers like Image are incredibly hands-off
Didn't Image try to unionize and have one of their demand be that all comics had to be approved by everyone in the office, including HR lady Karens?
The office staff unionized but the Partners (McFarlane, Liefeld, Kirkman, etc) are still negotiating with them on their demands and aren't budging when it comes down to that point
Then it's ability they lack, I did say ability too.
Or interest among international publishers to bring them over
They do get released in other regions but that mostly depends on the interest of other entities willing to bring them over
American comics even get released in Japan but it's mostly IPs audiences would already be familiar with like Marvel, DC, Godzilla, TMNT, etc
A number of mangaka have said they like Hellboy
Nightow, Arakawa, Kazuki Takahashi, Horikoshi, etc
I recall the art exchange between the authors for hellboy and yugioh. It was wholesome
But then you have to take japanese vidya into consideration as well. Considering how beloved those are.
I did consider it but upon browsing the top 10 gaming channels from Japan online, I've found that more than half of what they play or watch people play is American games. Just localized to Japanese. Very interesting tbdesu.
They like multiplayer stuff(like all kids, I Wish I could go back) but that doesn't have to do with our discussion. Western gaming should be compared with eastern gaming not eastern manga considering they are so different in approach.
The creativity in any medium can be compared freely. Creativity is in fact a skill and game devs in the US have it while our comic writers do not. There is simply no excuse. They could wow people, they choose not to.
That's because 2 things. 1. The community for indie games is huge and people are constantly searching for new stuff, itch.io and other sites encourage that as well. and 2. Bias, for every good indie game there are 1000 worthless ones but you at least get to see that game while that indie good comic will forever remain forgotten.
The community is huge because of the freedom. That freedom was born of the modding scene, many of which are still making mods of 20 year old games like half life to this day. And that freedom translates to creativity which translates to public interest. Games today would not be what they are without the pc modding scene. Comics on the other hand continue to be restrictive as fuck. Webcomics set the stage for interesting things 15 or so years ago but they weren't ambitious and were relegated to short newspaper style consumption until today. Now we have seen the emergence of easily accessible digital art supplies, then webtoons, and other consolidated long-form narrative comic hosts were the content aren't too time consuming to produce. They're still in their infancy but if things go well, that accessibility may have the same push toward creativity that the modding scene had on games.
But as things stand, I repeat, comics have no excuse. They cripple themselves willingly.
I'm making fun of you because comics obviously have these things retard. Weapon body parts are the laziest shit I ever heard of, it's how you would design a joke Shonen character. Cannibalism is old news and resembled your standard edgy western comic in Fire Punch, I ain't going to read Chainsaw man but I refuse to believe it would be used half as creatively in that shit
>I'm making fun of you because comics obviously have these things retard.
Oh cool, show me a published American e-boi smut comic.
Gave yourself away.
I accept your concession, so yes, there is clearly less creative freedom in comics than in manga, and now you know what the latter is more popular.
Not the anon you were arguing with, but your terminology gave you away.
I know who and what you are.
Again, concession accepted.
Again, not the anon you were arguing with. I actually agree, but you gave yourself away. Next time I see you around here, we'll have some words.
>it's how you would design a joke Shonen character
Dude One Punch Man is one of the most popular manga/anime out there right now, and Saitama is a joke character. The premise is a joke. It succeeds because when it's not joking, the writing is good enough to carry a narrative. It works because it doesn't take itself too seriously, but doesn't waste its audience's time.
That's something Guardians of the Galaxy at least gets right. One of the main characters is a raccoom-alien and the other is a tree that says only one line. Yet Guardians can still entertain.
One Punch man doesn't have good writing though
no it's not, it's production line capeshit garbage
The trick that both OPM and GotG recognize is that comedy and tragedy are separated by a thin line. The same situation, told in a different way, can elicit either humor or pathos.
Saitama is a joke character, but he's also obviously suffering from chronic depression at the start of his series. The very same things that make him funny are what makes him miserable, and while his circumstances may be fantastical the emotional core and the choices in front of him are easily relatable. This is a guy who felt lost and aimless and worthless, distracted himself from that by hyper-focusing on a hobby that he could enjoy, and now that the hobby is no longer fun he's right back where he started because he never really addressed WHY he was unhappy in the first place. Its the relationships her forges with people over the course of the story, friendships that drag him out of his shell, that improve his situation and his mood.
Likewise, the main characters in the GotG movies are similarly tragic for the same reasons that they are funny. Rocket is ridiculous character, but his backstory is loss and body horror. Peter is the funny quip man, but he is emotionally frozen at 10 due to his childhood trauma and being abducted into space. And so on.
The point is, if you know what you are doing you can make characters endearing and funny and then still have genuine emotional moments where you let the audience peek behind the curtain and see the pain behind the laughs.
The humor in OPM ran its course a long time ago.
GotG was NEVER good.
>Saitama is a joke character. The premise is a joke. It succeeds because when it's not joking, the writing is good enough to carry a narrative. It works because it doesn't take itself too seriously, but doesn't waste its audience's time.
I disagree. OPM is all about power and power structures (and their associated politics).
>Heroes in OPM's universe have a rigid power structure with a registration system, competitiveness, and so on. The goal of the hero system is to protect the people but the people in the system have often lost sight of that and are in it for the sake of power or the benefits that power gives them. They spend a lot of time involved in hero politics and trying to make a name for themselves.
>At the beginning of the story, Saitama exists entirely outside the system as a pure hero, who isn't interested or even aware of the politics of heroes. He just does his own thing by himself.
To give an analogy, the heroes are like a big community of subpar artists who spend all their time playing politics to try to make a name for themselves and advance their careers while Saitama is like a genius artist who has spent all his time perfecting his craft. The drama comes from the interaction between these two groups. On one hand Saitama is surprised that no one even knows who he is nor do they know about all of his achievements and by interacting with those in the community he starts learning how to become known. On the other hand, the heroes in the community are shocked that someone like Saitama exists and by interacting with him they start learning how to be better heroes and not care so much about politics.
It's a similar trope you see in lots of shounen/battle anime/manga. The protag is a battle genius who just wants to get better while the foes they encounter are in it for the wrong reasons but by interacting with the protag they change their perspective to line up with the protag, and the protag learns about the world. Dragon Ball does this too.
>OPM is all about power and power structures (and their associated politics).
That doesn't distract from Saitama killing everything in one hit being the premise nor the joke.
It just makes the in-universe world a black comedy.
Saitama killing everything in one punch is part of the theme. The story sets it up so that, by design, it is completely indisputable that he is the strongest hero. If they didn't write Saitama this way then the reader would be able to have some reasonable doubt about this fact. "Maybe Saitama isn't well known because he's actually not that powerful and it's just been luck or something up to now".
A half dog half man can just be a furry.
Or he can be a werewolf cursed to transform into a monster every full moon.
Or he can be the bastard child between the unholy union of a drunk guy and a stray dog, born into a life of fighting powerful foes just for the opportunity to rape his father in revenge for creating him.
You understand surely, that creativity is about the abstract and novel execution of simple ideas yes? And that those with the skill to do it, can wow an audience with the scale and outrageousness of how they executed their idea. Now fantastical and outrageous might not be everyone's cup of tea, but comics don't offer anything to you if it is. At least not any that can compete in the same league with manga.
Guy Gardner as Warrior
>Retarded bait thread
>Over 400 posts
>Gets 127 people
>Half of them probably don't even read comics to begin with
>>Half of them probably don't even read comics to begin with
You know, you could ask why they don't/stopped reading, and maybe that would shed light on things...
Saying there's only capeshit is an immediate redflag
You don't have to be a capeshitter to get into comics
The genre saturation is a problem but there's plenty of science fiction, fantasy, crime, etc all with beginnings, middles, and ends
Could the genre variety be better?
I would love to see more comics that don't appeal to me do better and encourage more options for a wider audience pool (as long as it doesn't negatively impact what I'm already reading) but instead of pretending what variety we do have doesn't exist, we should encourage it instead in hopes that'll it'll grow
>Saying there's only capeshit is an immediate redflag
Nobody is arguing that it's literally all capeshit. Just that capeshit is so prevalent that it's most associated with comics. Which is true.
>>inb4 "But you can just look for some that aren't!"
If it's less effort to look into a manga that offers genre diversity, then most consumers are going to go with that path of least resistance.
for a more accurate one.
Oh no I'm not disagreeing
I'm just saying there are idiots who will insist it really is nothing but capeshit
You are literally posting a japanese game.
>Liking manga, anime, Japanese vidya, music, tokusatsu, etc means you approve of East vs West shittery
East vs West is retarded
No matter what side you take
Stop posting East vs West threads and touch grass
Alright, you've convinced me.
I switching over to manga. Fuck this shitheap.
Die shitty thread
This argument reminds me of another issue with comics compared to manga.
The latter has a clear separation of demographics, if you want to read gay stories about gay characters, there are entire genres dedicated to that and then some.
If you want to read fanservice stories about a dude with a harem of bitches that he fucks, there's an entire genre for that, and you rarely have to worry about your gay story turning into a straight harem story, or your harem story turning into a gay romance.
Come to think about it, the last /toon/ thing I was interested about where Metalocalypse and RWBY, their respective downfalls are why I no longer care about western animation:
In Metalocalypse case it was simply executive meddling, I don't know why but for what I have been reading it appears this has become too recurring in western media where you find good shows often fucked up because, eh, reasons related to the people in charge.
In RWBYs case, well, the show was animesque, I think this caught a lot of people, RWBY was an opportunity to introduce people who have drifted to anime back into contemporary western media, sadly it not just not delivered associated anime/manga expected tropes (fanservice, long arcs and cool fights), but elements which were traditionally considered as the main strength of western media such as comedy and bizarre experiences were replaced by what felt like a rip-off of some woke teen drama.
By this point people feel like every single western animated show and comic will have a heavy left-oriented message, don't get me wrong, I do agree with some of the points, but there is a distinction within an story with some propaganda elements and propaganda with some story elements.
I think Metalocalypse is still getting a movie, so there's still that to look forward to.
But yea, once the VB and Metalocalypse movies come out, there's not much for me to look forward to.
Just to point out, by left I mean, modern left, a tankie left comic with, say, Comrade Stalin murdering his way into power in the most over the top way possible would be both absolutely hilarious and awesome
It's kind of ironic that while comics and comic creators are always huffing and puffing about diversity, the industry itself is very insular and most of what's made is only made for the same 3 demographics.
'Diversity' in comics is just the same handful of guys who want to continue the same handful of properties, but want to bait new audiences into reading them by changing small superficial details while keeping the majority of their work the same.
Diversity in manga is about having 100 different flavors to choose from, most of which have no appeal to you but are someone else's favorite thing and everyone gets to read what they want.
When they say the word diversity they're using it in the left wing political sense where it means intersectionality. They'll try to act like they're using it in a colloquial sense and that oh no no, this is just about markets and if you don't agree with us then you just haven't educated yourself on how the industry works. But the minute you point out that not all demos want to read the same genres, that different demos believe radically incompatible things, and that different demos don't always want to see each other represented then they go off like a bomb.
I guess it's because this undermines the way they think about the world more broadly, it's not just a comic book thing for them. White liberals see the world as a collection of poor, oppressed minorities that they have to help and lead, it's a paternalistic ideology. In reality, the ideological justification for the oppression of the third world has been liberalism more than it's been anything else. What do these people think the white man's burden was, teaching the poor, stupid colonials how to be Nazis or something? It was about teaching them progressive (for the time) values that they didn't want just like the majority of the third world doesn't want the West's progressivism today.
All those choices in manga and I still find more comics that appeal to me, comics from the US, Canada, Argentina, Brazil, UK, Australia, France, Belgium, Spain, Italy, Finland, Norway, and Germany.
That's fine, it's the opposite for me, since I'm not in your demographic.
Are you Japanese or a woman?
No, but I'm not white, 30+, or a bisexual liberal.
Neither am I. None of those things.
Then good for you! Has Germany actually made any good comics recently? Most germans that I know are obsessed with manga.
Demon Slayer is dogshit. Weebs using its success to lord it over comic fans is no different than pop music fags pretending their music is the best.
So it's agreed then. Comics are better than manga.
Weebs go away
Fuck all of you.