THIS. I'm surprised just how soon his works were corrupted. ~~*They*~~ just couldn't wait till Stan passed away to start crashing Marvel with no survivors
I used to agree with Alan Moore but now I agree with Jim Shooter. He revolutionized comics with more relatable dialogue and heroes. Spider-Man was the most genius concept because he's sidekick age but not only isn't he one but his hero name uses Man instead of Boy. It was telling kids "You're enough on your own" which propelled it to be a top seller to this very day.
HOWEVER, he believed the bullshit that the credited writer should have sole creator credit which lead to Kirby and Ditko being robbed of millions of dollars that they earned. I don't feel so bad about him being abused and manipulated by that LA sleazeball because it couldn't have happened to a nicer israelite.
>he believed the bullshit that the credited writer should have sole creator credit
Untrue. >which lead to Kirby and Ditko being robbed of millions of dollars
Never happened. Lee never got royalties from any of that stuff either. Lee thought royalties were pointless and had no interest in getting them himself.
>he believed the bullshit that the credited writer should have sole creator credit
I'm unsure he really did. The suits that owned everything were going to frick over creators no matter what, but they liked the idea of a figurehead that could go around saying "I created X & Y," and he was basically offered that gig.
Lee's options were (1) turn it down on moral grounds that would've resulted in him getting fricked alongside the other creators, or (2) take them up on it and have a steady gig while the other creators get fricked exactly as much as they would've gotten fricked anyway.
He chose the second one. I'd like to think I might have a strong enough sense of honor to pick the former, but it's silly to think he had real power on matters of paying creators their dues for MAJOR creations (a move that would cost the company a lot of money).
>He's a piece of shit but I can't help but love how shameless he was in fricking over his colleagues.
why are you believing the fanfiction of communist trannies?
It's not false that he was a hack who got lucky. If it wasn't for Ditko and Kirby in the 60s this guy wouldn't have anything to sell. He never made anything good before them and never made any new good stuff after they left.
It's not false that he was a hack who got lucky. If it wasn't for Ditko and Kirby in the 60s this guy wouldn't have anything to sell. He never made anything good before them and never made any new good stuff after they left.
Stan may or may not get more credit than he deserves for the creation process but at the same time it's also wrong to say he's not directly responsible for making the books as big as they were. He was, if nothing else, a salesman and a showman. And he SOLD THE BOOK. Would they have done well without stand riling up the crowd? I imagine they'd do fine. But only fine. Stan made Marvel a marvel. He was the comic PT Barnum and that's more important than you realize.
Salesman are not worthwhile or worth admiration and even then how good of a salesman was he? The only things in his life he could sell and make successful were the things other people were making in the 60, nothing really before or after approached the success he had with them
And what did Shitko make when he wasn’t paired up with Stan LMAO, fricking Objectivist-Man? Stan had a better career without Ditko than Ditko did without Stan.
1 month ago
Anonymous
Ditko did a lot of good work at Charlton, DC, and his own stuff as well as Dr Strange which even Stan admits was all Steve, all of which is of better quality than anything Stan made on his own.
1 month ago
Anonymous
Not that guy, and I agree with you that Ditko (and Kirby) made great things separate from Lee. But there were a lot of great creators during that time period. The reason Kirby and Ditko still stand up and are so renowned to this day is from the work they did with Lee. I hesitate to give Lee any real creative credit, but without him, their work would just be hidden gems lost in the mass of comics at the time.
Yeah the whole narrative of Stan not crediting Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko is patently false at worse, a half-truth at best. Stan fought his uncle and Marvel publisher Martin Goodman so that both Ditko and Kirby got co-plotter (and sometimes full on) plot credit on the books they did together, which also meant they were paid more for their work than if they were just credited as penciled.
Stan constantly getting called "The creator of Marvel Comics" or "The creator of Spider-Man" by the media at-large outside of comics isn't his fault, but a symptom of a media machine that likes to simplify things to its most basic necessities for communication. If Ditko hadn't quit Marvel in 1966 and Kirby in 1970, they would've been treated as a team like "Siegel & Shuster" in the collective public conciousness.
I suppose it's just a matter of personality too. Stan was far more out going and vocal. He was always doing stuff and getting attention for marvel and the books. Jack wasn't quite so social and Ditko was practically a recluse. It's easy to see why Stan would get so much attention.
>spends career israeliteing himself into the spotlight >takes credit for the work of his superior talent colleagues >dies alone in his own shit abused by some fat black nurse
Such is the fate of Satan's people
I'm ashamed that when he died, I was a NEET with no contact with the outside world, and I was sick of Cinemaphile too. I only found out about his death by stalking the twitter of a former friend. And they just said good riddance. He's a contentious guy who people call shit writer, a scammer, but also was likable and seen as the face of the industry. He was a business guy, but without him a lot of characters couldn't exist, he just took too much of the credit too. He deserves the legacy.
But my friend only hated him because Lee said that Peter Parker will never be gay.
>Peter Parker will never be gay.
thank god that's actually a thing, god bless stan lee
I think it's even a contractual agreement Stan had made with Marvel that Peter Parker must always be written as a white, heterosexual male. This is why the alphabet plbrigade are trying so hard to replace Peter with Miles.
I do not believe at all the “stan did nothing” narrative peddled by Stevecucks.
If it’s so true then why did the comic remain the same level of quality/arguably become better when Romita came on board? Are we going to pretend that Romita secretly wrote all those issues too? Stan = The Man
By Stan's own omission, he took time out of his schedule to write Spider-Man as long as he was on the character because it was the only book he genuinely gave a damn about, that and Silver Surfer, which he also would drop everything and write when he could.
It maintained a similar level of quality for about 20 -30 issues before becoming incredibly mediocre before Gerry takes over. Around the late 50s and on it becomes incredibly repetitive and lame and only gimmicks like the 6 arm stuff or drug or protest issues have any merit at all. FF went to shit immediately, actually even while Kirby was there he was phoning it in for the last leg of the run.
He did more than nothing, but even without Ditko or Kirby he expected the artist to do what would later be considered at least co-plotting work.
In his interviews in the 1960s, before he believed his own hype, he was pretty candid about how he worked, saying openly that Kirby did most of his own plotting and he was just editor/dialogue writer.
And with the other artists, he would call them in, have a talk about what should happen in the next issue, someone would type up a rough summary and then they would go home to draw it. You can tell in a lot of '60s Marvel comics that the instructions were basically "X fights Y," this is something that holds back Stan's pet series, Silver Surfer, because John Buscema did beautiful art but didn't care enough about superheroes to add much detail of his own (and why should he, unless he's getting paid for co-plotting?).
You can tell Lee influenced the stories because every artist did the same stories for him (Iike "small time villain sees the error of his ways and then dies redeeming himself") and because Kirby and Ditko's work for other editors/writers has some real differences. But he was sort of combining the job of writer and editor and giving the artist at least some work that we now think of as writing.
One thing he was obviously good at was matching artists with the right books and getting the best work out of them. His Archie-style humor comics (which he liked more than superheroes, but never came up with a true Archie competitor) don't have writing on the level of the best in the business, but Dan DeCarlo (Millie the Model) and Al Hartley (Patsy Walker) did outstanding work, maybe their best, though they both moved to Archie when humor work dried up at Timely/Marvel (Stan Goldberg then became the big humor guy at Marvel but eventually moved to Archie too).
That sort of tracks with how Gene Colan never found a superhero book he connected with the way he connected with "Daredevil" -- Lee is to blame for the stories being so weak on that book, though.
He contributed far more than fandom is willing to give him credit for. It's also weird how the general public recognizes him, but thinks he was an actor and doesn't know he worked in comics.
He was a great writer for his time. Not so much for later times, which is why it's a good thing he moved on from writing pretty early on. But his greatest talent was marketing himself.
Cool dude, mediocre writer.
Nothing worth a thread
SPBP
If you think this is worthless, wait until you see the rest of the board.
THIS. I'm surprised just how soon his works were corrupted. ~~*They*~~ just couldn't wait till Stan passed away to start crashing Marvel with no survivors
FALSE
Overrated and Overhated
He's a good writer.
Lovable hack
He was great in the Sopranos, especially when he was fighting with Christopher over stupid shit.
Good entrepreneur, which is what modern comics need.
I used to agree with Alan Moore but now I agree with Jim Shooter. He revolutionized comics with more relatable dialogue and heroes. Spider-Man was the most genius concept because he's sidekick age but not only isn't he one but his hero name uses Man instead of Boy. It was telling kids "You're enough on your own" which propelled it to be a top seller to this very day.
HOWEVER, he believed the bullshit that the credited writer should have sole creator credit which lead to Kirby and Ditko being robbed of millions of dollars that they earned. I don't feel so bad about him being abused and manipulated by that LA sleazeball because it couldn't have happened to a nicer israelite.
>he believed the bullshit that the credited writer should have sole creator credit
Untrue.
>which lead to Kirby and Ditko being robbed of millions of dollars
Never happened. Lee never got royalties from any of that stuff either. Lee thought royalties were pointless and had no interest in getting them himself.
>pider-Man was the most genius concept because he's sidekick age but not only isn't he one but his hero name uses Man instead of Boy.
Spider-Man was not the first kid or teenager non sidekick superhero in comics, not even in the big 2 the comic was created a bit after Superboy
>he believed the bullshit that the credited writer should have sole creator credit
I'm unsure he really did. The suits that owned everything were going to frick over creators no matter what, but they liked the idea of a figurehead that could go around saying "I created X & Y," and he was basically offered that gig.
Lee's options were (1) turn it down on moral grounds that would've resulted in him getting fricked alongside the other creators, or (2) take them up on it and have a steady gig while the other creators get fricked exactly as much as they would've gotten fricked anyway.
He chose the second one. I'd like to think I might have a strong enough sense of honor to pick the former, but it's silly to think he had real power on matters of paying creators their dues for MAJOR creations (a move that would cost the company a lot of money).
He's a piece of shit but I can't help but love how shameless he was in fricking over his colleagues.
>He's a piece of shit but I can't help but love how shameless he was in fricking over his colleagues.
why are you believing the fanfiction of communist trannies?
Never happened.
Shigeru Miyamoto of comics
Overcredited, overhyped, but genuinely still worthy of respect in his own right
That describes neither of them.
Almost thought this was a death sticky, don't scare me like that OP
he was a good salesman, comicbooks would be irrelevant a dead without him
A true icon, love Stan
Hack who got incredibly lucky in the 60s and rode on the back of that ever since.
proved false
It's not false that he was a hack who got lucky. If it wasn't for Ditko and Kirby in the 60s this guy wouldn't have anything to sell. He never made anything good before them and never made any new good stuff after they left.
Didn't mean to quote.
Stan may or may not get more credit than he deserves for the creation process but at the same time it's also wrong to say he's not directly responsible for making the books as big as they were. He was, if nothing else, a salesman and a showman. And he SOLD THE BOOK. Would they have done well without stand riling up the crowd? I imagine they'd do fine. But only fine. Stan made Marvel a marvel. He was the comic PT Barnum and that's more important than you realize.
Salesman are not worthwhile or worth admiration and even then how good of a salesman was he? The only things in his life he could sell and make successful were the things other people were making in the 60, nothing really before or after approached the success he had with them
hating Stan "the man" Lee for moronic reasons wont make your life better
And what did Shitko make when he wasn’t paired up with Stan LMAO, fricking Objectivist-Man? Stan had a better career without Ditko than Ditko did without Stan.
Ditko did a lot of good work at Charlton, DC, and his own stuff as well as Dr Strange which even Stan admits was all Steve, all of which is of better quality than anything Stan made on his own.
Not that guy, and I agree with you that Ditko (and Kirby) made great things separate from Lee. But there were a lot of great creators during that time period. The reason Kirby and Ditko still stand up and are so renowned to this day is from the work they did with Lee. I hesitate to give Lee any real creative credit, but without him, their work would just be hidden gems lost in the mass of comics at the time.
A israelite who stole from others and paraded their work as his wn.
But he did credit Kirby and Ditko.
Yeah the whole narrative of Stan not crediting Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko is patently false at worse, a half-truth at best. Stan fought his uncle and Marvel publisher Martin Goodman so that both Ditko and Kirby got co-plotter (and sometimes full on) plot credit on the books they did together, which also meant they were paid more for their work than if they were just credited as penciled.
Stan constantly getting called "The creator of Marvel Comics" or "The creator of Spider-Man" by the media at-large outside of comics isn't his fault, but a symptom of a media machine that likes to simplify things to its most basic necessities for communication. If Ditko hadn't quit Marvel in 1966 and Kirby in 1970, they would've been treated as a team like "Siegel & Shuster" in the collective public conciousness.
It seems to be a legal issue:
?si=6Q1Or32c7ERrXByo
>In my opinion, I consider Steve Ditko to be the co-creator
Holy frick.
I suppose it's just a matter of personality too. Stan was far more out going and vocal. He was always doing stuff and getting attention for marvel and the books. Jack wasn't quite so social and Ditko was practically a recluse. It's easy to see why Stan would get so much attention.
I miss the Stan Lee posting when ever someone major would die, as morbid as it was.
>spends career israeliteing himself into the spotlight
>takes credit for the work of his superior talent colleagues
>dies alone in his own shit abused by some fat black nurse
Such is the fate of Satan's people
Are you sure you aren't mistaking him for Bob Kane. Stan did hardly anything compared to Bob.
We love he gave us Marvel Comics
I'm ashamed that when he died, I was a NEET with no contact with the outside world, and I was sick of Cinemaphile too. I only found out about his death by stalking the twitter of a former friend. And they just said good riddance. He's a contentious guy who people call shit writer, a scammer, but also was likable and seen as the face of the industry. He was a business guy, but without him a lot of characters couldn't exist, he just took too much of the credit too. He deserves the legacy.
But my friend only hated him because Lee said that Peter Parker will never be gay.
>Peter Parker will never be gay.
thank god that's actually a thing, god bless stan lee
I think it's even a contractual agreement Stan had made with Marvel that Peter Parker must always be written as a white, heterosexual male. This is why the alphabet plbrigade are trying so hard to replace Peter with Miles.
i say let them turn miles morales gay, that would be funny as frick
Stan Lichposting was funny
you should listen to this
I do not believe at all the “stan did nothing” narrative peddled by Stevecucks.
If it’s so true then why did the comic remain the same level of quality/arguably become better when Romita came on board? Are we going to pretend that Romita secretly wrote all those issues too? Stan = The Man
By Stan's own omission, he took time out of his schedule to write Spider-Man as long as he was on the character because it was the only book he genuinely gave a damn about, that and Silver Surfer, which he also would drop everything and write when he could.
It maintained a similar level of quality for about 20 -30 issues before becoming incredibly mediocre before Gerry takes over. Around the late 50s and on it becomes incredibly repetitive and lame and only gimmicks like the 6 arm stuff or drug or protest issues have any merit at all. FF went to shit immediately, actually even while Kirby was there he was phoning it in for the last leg of the run.
How do you work your way through the bad parts of these comics? Even the so-called good parts are a chore.
The good parts are great, even after Ditko leaves, but you can tell about halfway through the first 100 they really ran the frick out of ideas.
It's a bit hard to see now but look back 100 issues is actually a long time for a book. I doubt they ever expected to last that long on any of these.
He did more than nothing, but even without Ditko or Kirby he expected the artist to do what would later be considered at least co-plotting work.
In his interviews in the 1960s, before he believed his own hype, he was pretty candid about how he worked, saying openly that Kirby did most of his own plotting and he was just editor/dialogue writer.
And with the other artists, he would call them in, have a talk about what should happen in the next issue, someone would type up a rough summary and then they would go home to draw it. You can tell in a lot of '60s Marvel comics that the instructions were basically "X fights Y," this is something that holds back Stan's pet series, Silver Surfer, because John Buscema did beautiful art but didn't care enough about superheroes to add much detail of his own (and why should he, unless he's getting paid for co-plotting?).
You can tell Lee influenced the stories because every artist did the same stories for him (Iike "small time villain sees the error of his ways and then dies redeeming himself") and because Kirby and Ditko's work for other editors/writers has some real differences. But he was sort of combining the job of writer and editor and giving the artist at least some work that we now think of as writing.
One thing he was obviously good at was matching artists with the right books and getting the best work out of them. His Archie-style humor comics (which he liked more than superheroes, but never came up with a true Archie competitor) don't have writing on the level of the best in the business, but Dan DeCarlo (Millie the Model) and Al Hartley (Patsy Walker) did outstanding work, maybe their best, though they both moved to Archie when humor work dried up at Timely/Marvel (Stan Goldberg then became the big humor guy at Marvel but eventually moved to Archie too).
That sort of tracks with how Gene Colan never found a superhero book he connected with the way he connected with "Daredevil" -- Lee is to blame for the stories being so weak on that book, though.
What was his last work here?
He contributed far more than fandom is willing to give him credit for. It's also weird how the general public recognizes him, but thinks he was an actor and doesn't know he worked in comics.
He was a great writer for his time. Not so much for later times, which is why it's a good thing he moved on from writing pretty early on. But his greatest talent was marketing himself.
i don't think about him