What exactly was the tax policy here?
How much did Robert Baratheon tax his subjects?
And how much sex did an average peasant have?
 CRIME Shirt $21.68 |
 UFOs Are A Psyop Shirt $21.68 |
CRIME Shirt $21.68 |
What exactly was the tax policy here? How much did Robert Baratheon tax his subjects? And how much sex did an average peasant have?
>Gurm makes a very interesting and good point about fiction with his story
>autists nitpick the quote by taking it 1000000% literally and deconstructing it on an atomic scale
Don't throw stones in a glass house
autistic moron
You're an idiot Karl
I feel bad for Tolkiengays being this triggered by a chance comment by GRRM
>gurm argues one of the most indepth and autistic works of fantasy ever isn't detailed enough
>writes game of thrones
>>gurm argues one of the most indepth and autistic works of fantasy ever isn't detailed enough
Not what he said at all moron.
That wasn't his point. Did you even read the quote?
You know I agree with him but I didn’t get the economics of Asoiaf, I needed more info on the taxes and levies of the seven kingdoms, were there corvees? did the crown hold monopolies? etc.
>corvees
yes
>did the crown hold monopolies
yes
What is your tax policy, anon?
>Gurm makes a very interesting and good point about fiction
No, he merely reveals his ignorance about the distinction between high and low fantasy.
What game of thrones girl has the foulest-smelling, most frequent farts?
Cersei probably
or Dany but specifically during 'sunset found her squatting in the grass, groaning'
Why Cersei?
Because of her alcoholism
so she’s ripping absolutely horrid farts all the time because of the wine she’s chugging daily?
yes, precisely
how does she deal with it?
after Based Bobby B died, she also starts eating a LOT of pork
How does that affect her gas?
There's a line in the fourth book that implies she's slowly gaining weight. She'd be a fart machine.
Years of anal sex with Jamie in the earlier days of their incest, leaning on that as an excuse to make it okay before they became shameless enough to start doing pussy sex too
Margaery
Why would Margaery have bad gas?
Undiagnosed lactose intolerance.
what?
George was giving a very specific example when he said the "tax policy" thing, what he was trying to say was a story is worth telling when it's about the conflicts of charaters with themselves and others, their ideology and struggles
He was pointing out how Tolkien just doesn't use the possible potential to do something interesting with the consequences of this war this whole fricking books were about and instead it just ends
>instead writes a book series that has no ending
fat frick put us all into checkmate
>has no ending
WoW comes out early 2023. Don't ask me how I know this, but you'll be closer to the ending by one book in February 2023
RemindMe! February 2023
If this is true then we did it Reddit!
>just doesn't use the possible potential to do something interesting with the consequences of this war
scouring of the shire
Finish the book fatman.
>Arryn occupyinh canonicall Tully lands
>Tyrell occupying canon Lannister lands
Who the frick made this map?
because its copied and pasted.
>Scots are ice zombie monsters
what did he mean by this?
they're the wildlings
If anything they’re lowlanders.
What is his beef with Highlanders?
>NOOOO YOU CANT USE REAL LIFE BORDERS TO MAKE YOUR IMAGINARY CONTINENT MORE REALISTIC BECAUSE....YOU JUST CANT OK?
>Wait...isnt that just a Boomerang-shaped continent
>BY GOD TOLKIEN IS TRULY THE GOAT OF GEOGRAPHIC WORLDBUILDING
>GODKIEN GODKIEN
Meant to use this, my bad
>borders
anon that is coast. i like the wall/ hadrian's wall thing, its a good example of stealing from history. but making your map upside down ireland is lazy and silly. i know what ireland looks like. when i go to read a fantasy novel and look at the map in the front i expect some kind of imagination, and i see a map of the country i live in flipped upside down. the map from the how to train your dragon books is better, and that's for kids.
> Stormlands = rainy wet Pacific Northwest
> literally right next to
> Dorne = barren arid desert
The climate doesn't work.
Never read of rain shadow? Take a look at the Andean mountains. One side is a lush jungle with heavy rain, the other a litterally coastal desert
Where's the rain shadow between Dorne and the Stormlands? Because all I see is a literal sea, yet Dorne is Arizona while the Stormlands is Oregon.
Indeed, even modern day humans would have extreme difficulty living on a planet with seasons like that, not to mention all the deer, rabbits, birds and such would be dead.
The Red Mountains dude. Everything south of Pentos is rather dry, so i suppose there is a humid current from the north that stops in the Stormlands bays. All the humidity goes syphoned by winds norths of the red mountains, causing tempests in the Stormlands (hence the name) and more midly rains westward in the Reach (Hence their famed fertile lands)
Shut the frick up.
>The Red Mountains dude.
So which way are the winds blowing that Dorne is a desert while the Stormlands are a temperate rainforest?
>trying to make geological sense out of a world where the seasons last years, seemingly arbitrarily
You know there's magic in this show right?
Is due the famous asspull current from the Sea of Dorne .
>Oregon borders Nevada
Hmmm....
Not how rainshadows work.
Direction of rainshadows is determined by prevailing winds, below 30 latitudes the winds blow from north-east to south-west, above 30 latitudes they blow from south-west to north-east.
Now, considering that King's Landing itself sits near 30 latitude, Dorne is impact by tradewinds and not by the westerlies, therefore the rainshadow falls on Oldtown and not Dorne
Additionally, the Rock is separated from the Crownlands by mountains, and the prevailing winds come from the west, so... There should a desert between the Rock and King's Landing
damn it's like the weather is influenced by magic or something
The weather isn't influenced by magic you dimwit. And even if it was, magic went into decline after the fall of the dragons.
>The weather isn't influenced by magic you dimwit
That's why winter lasts for years, dumb c**t? kek
But a map like this wouldn't be the exact North to south directions on an actual land mass. For example, this kind of map would not be a maritime accurate map.
>winter last some decades
>rest of seasons last whatever random number of years
>this doesn't affect the climate (nor the fauna or the flora)
Turns out GRRM is a moronic hack. More news at 11.
Realistically there should be a lot more linguistic diversity between the regions, at least on par with premodern Germany or Italy.
George said he was ever of that but it would have made the story near impossible to tell if he did that so he decided to not do it
there was, but three centuries of union eroded that
It's rougly south-America size, so it's absurd Robert's entourage reached Winterfell in few weeks 2-3 months at best. it's a know plothole that, while blatanty in the show with teleporting characters, is still unrealistic in the books too
Westeros should really had been rougly the size of Western Europe to have such speedness work
Other plotholes like other anons said is the lack of linguisticall drifts in the continent and the thousand years old lasting monogamous dynasties
where does your size estimation come from?
I have a Masters in South American Overland Transit Times
but where did you get that westeros is as big as south america?
Martin said so
https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Geography
I'm fine with dragons, ice zombies and blood magic. People with medieval technology teleporting left and right during 2-3 years timeframe across a continent it's much more irrealistic
what a hack, the entire thing makes no sense if westeros is that big, just think of the logistics and the centrifugal political forces
Bigger empires have existed IRL, Rome was probably bigger at its peak, China in its current state is still bigger than Westeros Russia and Soviet Union were/are both massive empires/nations
None of those were as big as South America which is what he compares Westeros to
Neither Rome or China were south America tier. Tang Empire and Ming Empire came very close, but most of their core lands were a massive plain with easily navigable rivers
As i said, Westeros should been Western Europe size at max to justify that movement times.
He admitted that he’s shit at geography and everything is too big, like Westeros and the wall.
He also admitted that he made the characters too young
SF/F writers notoriously have no sense of scale.
That's for the whole continent which also includes everything above the wall and who the frick knows how far the lands go. As for the seven kingdoms, it should be on par with the size of europe and even the north takes half of that.
plus there's shit like dragons, ice zombies and blood magic
it's like realism went out the window
>seven kingdoms
>map has nine
Iron islands are part of rivelands kingdom not independent
Westerlands are capital parts so not a kingdom
The crownlands, not the westerlands
dumbass
And the Iron Islanders were Kings over the riverlands at the time of the conquest, not the other way around, so you fail on botha ccounts.
nine what?
lol idiot
There were seven kingdoms in the continent when Aegon conquered it
>Ironborns controlled all of the riverlands
>Crownlands/Targaryen lands were disputed lands between neighborood lands
Ironically tho that Dorne was never conquered, so for much of their rule they actually controlled the land of just 6/7 of the original kingdoms
lands were disputed lands between neighborood lands
I thought the Durrandons controlled them. Everyone else was too far away or too busy.
The Durrandons generations before expanded up to the Riverlands, but were in quick decadence when Aegon landed, they only controlled the southern third of the future crownlands
Durrandons had the largest pre-Targ empire in Westers, but at the time of the Conquest they'd undergone decline with the Hoares of the Iron Islands using clever politics to undermine and conquer much of their empire.
I can get the North, Vale and Dorne to rougly keep the same borders, as they have formidable natural defences. Iron Islands are a shithole so it's make sense nobody ever bothered to occupy them.
But the fact Westerlands and Reach borders across history keep remaining the same, leaving only the riverlands as the prostitutes splitted and conquered left and right, always triggers my historian autism.
Westerlands have massive gold/silver mines and the Reach the most fertile lands, while lacking natural borders, Realistically they should be in costant warfare to defend themselves with constant border movements
>Westerlands have massive gold/silver mines and the Reach the most fertile lands, while lacking natural borders, Realistically they should be in costant warfare to defend themselves with constant border movements
they have been, the Dunk and Egg stories touch on this
Yea i know about that border reachman house that conquered and defended that land from the Westerland reconquista attempts. But happened so many centuries before the house was already a shadow of the former self by the Aegon landed
It's still fantasy, as per the history of Westeros a single house has ruled major portions of lands for thousands of years when IRL very rarely would a dynasty maintain its rule for over a hundred years. Just because it's supposed to be a little more vaguely realistic with regards to medeival conditions doesn't mean every single point in the lore should have an irl basis
Why in the world did the Starks just get to have that much land? Literally no one was worried that they'd just say "uh actually we'll take over lol"? Well I guess Aegon did...
there's nothing up there tho
There's plenty of arable land up there when it's not the winter season. I know the Tyrells have it on lock due to the climate for them, but there's other things to eat than grain which could withstand the colder weather.
>Why in the world did the Starks just get to have that much land?
same way russia and canada did
It's a frozen wasteland and barely populated. Despite being the largest it's among the least populated kingdoms
Aegon II and the Council of 101 were in the right. Even Stannis, Cinemaphile Recognized king of Westeros, tought so in the books
Starks were an independant kingdom before Aegon, they conquered whatever land they currently own and didn't push any further probably because they couldn't defeat the kings beyond that chokepoint into the Riverlands. When Starks surrendered to Aegon be basically just let them keep whatever they had at that point, it wasn't carved out and handed over to them.
Same reason canada is the 2nd biggest country
Will Cinemaphile support the Blacks or the Greens?
>the blacks
um anon we say people of Black person in present day
>frog posters vs Black folk
hard choice
The side with based grandma Rhaenys and chad Daemon.
God I hate this map
what in the ever loving frick is going on with the riverlands/vale borders on this map?
Why not post full map
I hope one day people make as much fun of my setting
This is the complete world map pal
That's cool. Who made it? And who are those dudes all the way over in the southeast?
Thats Chinos
this looks good, but isn't it fan made? I thought he hasn't gone into this much detail or added so many continents.. i know he did some further world building but that it extended to placing eldrich abominations in random spots far away from the main story
*boots up CKII*
>westeros
>easteros
>southros
>mysterios
Bravo GRRM you fricking hack lel
>EuropA
>AsiA
>AfricA
>AmericA
>AustraliA
>AntarticA
-ros is likely just the subfix used in Westeros to denote a land (they came from AndalOS), and all the names of continents we know are from in-world books wrote by maesters
It's not that different than medieval clerics calling as "Asia" a continent that was know by the natives with a completely different name
Martin's worldbuilding have many flaws, but the "OS" autis is not one of them
taking english words and adding "os" as a suffix is downright comical
>see an elephant
>call it an oliphaunt
yeah there's a lot of that in fantasy
but oliphaunt is a translation in modern english of the Westron word for it that we do not know what it was, in fact all the westron names are anglicised too i.e. Samwise Gamgee is not actually called Sawmise Gamgee lore wise. it's a name the author chose to appeal to the audience
Read the appendixes
>lazy name is a translation
lol
Martin is not a philologue nor a linguistic expert. Pretending the same autism in words structures from him is disingenous
Most real continent have boring forms by themselves tho:
>South America
>Africa
>Australia
>India (actually a continent of his own that crashed into Asia recently)
>nor a linguistic expert
You can say that again.
Is 'nuncle an actual term or did he invent that? Never heard it irl.
having opinions on linguistics while not having a single clue about language evolution is peak midwit
the comedy is you
what do you even mean
you're a nobody on an internet forum pretending you know even a single thing about language
I have extensive knowledge of etymology and studied classical languages, it has nothign to do with recognizing that calling continents/places "east place" "west place" "north place" "south place" is as lazy and stupid as it gets, not even bothering to mask it behind a fake language
yea, read the appendixes to LOTR, it's all explained there, including etymologies for other names such as Sauron/Saruman which always come up in these kinda threads
a lazy explanation is still lazy
it's not lazy at all, since for most names he says what the original word is and its etymology, it is actually more complex than it needed to be as he could have just kept all the stupid gibberish names in the text
it's extremely lazy, jarringly so for a guy who did real translations for about everything else
you don't seem to get it, it's there for the reader to relate better
like the hobbit's names that use real english words in them like "Proudfoot" or "Sackville" or "Underhill"
Oliphaunts aren't Elephants anyways, as they are much larger with many anatomical differences, they are rendered in english in a similar manner so the reader understands what they are supposed to be like
>you don't seem to get it, it's there for the reader to relate better
>in a book full of made-up words
laziness
laziness would be either using the english words with no explanation like GRR does or using gibberish wholesale like most fantasy does
Just stop
using an alternative real life version of elephant and claiming its a translation for ease of reading is laziness
he could have called them cuihrhrfkdys with 0 effort
bullshit, he'd call it andamunda and spend all night explaining the origins of the word to Chris and decrying the use of electricity
>discover land in the north
>name it after the most northern constellation or "arktikos"
>discover a similar land but on the opposite side of the world
>call it "opposite arktikos" or "antarctica"
>discover land in the south
>call it "southern land" or "Terra Australis"
Tolkien also does that?...
>hmm this town is in the middle of a valley
>hmmm a riven dell...
>I know! it will be called Rivendell
>The Dothraki Lake
>The Dothraki River
kek
>newark
too kino for grrm's mind to create, fake
Top kek.
Gurm autists absolutely destroyed.
>easteros
>no christmassos or halloweenos
>Newark
>Mysterios
>Australia
I haven't laughed this hard in a long time
remember the season 1 memes?
House of the dragon will revitalize GOT in modern pop culture. There's a shitload of politics in the story if I remeber correctly, combined with dragons and Targs it's going to be a smash hit. Plus the writers actually have a fully fleshed out story at ahd, so they can take liberties here and there while still sticking to the core of the story.
I wouldnt mind D&D adapting it, they were pretty good when they had material to go off of and made tons of OC content like Arya-Tywin scenes, Hardhome etc
delusional
The problem is almost everyone, normies included will know the fate of the major characters.
One of the main ideas that make GOT was the idea that everyone could die in any moment. In the first season many people didnt read the books yet, and in latter seasons the diverge from the books allowed to mantain that tension
Here we know almost everyone gets either stabbed or dies in creative ways at the hands of dragons (burned, eaten, trow away while flying, etc.) and the war ends with two scarred and traumatized kids being crowned as king and queen after their family almost wiped out itself by infighting. Also almost all dragons dies.
It's extremelly nihilistic and grimdark. Not stupid as the GOT ending, but even more nihilistic
Honestly it's pretty dumb and super edgy, and the background for it was rewritten by GRRM before
Originally Rhaenyra was Aegon's older sister by a year.
The way it was rewritten, it seems like you said an edgier version of Joffrey and Stannis, except if Stannis had popularity among some of the nobility. Originally the whole thing seemed more grey, but later retcons make it obvious that Blacks = Good and Greens = Bad
If i remember correctly, the first entire story of the Dance was in AWOIAF, not directly written by Martin, but, rather, by Elio and Linda
I bet these two had the idea of whitewash the blacks for some girls power moment. By the scarse canon sources we have directly from the books wrote before AWOIAF (so directly from Martin), it seems everyone aside Arianne, a notorious girls power b***h, seems to think Rhaenyra was in the wrong
They may had worked to cause a Targaryen civil war, but i dont think Otto, Alicent and her spawn cared about that. For them, it was a power move to take controll of the dragons. The Hightowers ambitions were likely used, and i think in most of history it's actually the citadel that controlls the house, not the other way around
>the first entire story of the Dance was in AWOIAF, not directly written by Martin, but, rather, by Elio and Linda
TWOIAF is just a slightly cutdown version of a larger original block of text written by GRRM himself, which is now published in full (half of it anyway) as Fire and Blood. There's pages and pages that are just copy-pasted between the two.
If there's any whitewashing it's GRRM's fault alone.
Daeron was a Chad
>Aegon's older sister by a year
How early was this? Even before Fire & Blood came out, the fact she was far older than him was already a thing.
A Storm of Swords
So that's 2000s. Wonder when he changed his mind
I think as it stands she's 10 years older.
The age changes all seem to pop up with Elio and Linda's writings in A World of Ice and Fire
The dragons die because of an intentional conspiracy by the Citadel maesters and the Hightowers, represented by the Green faction, who didn’t think the world had a place for dragons. It isn’t explicitly mentioned but you can piece together the conspiracy with a very thorough reading.
>we know
Is that the royal "we?"
Not everybody has a taste for landfill fantasy novels. There will be plenty of surprises for the TV audience.
Shireen litterally spoiled the Dance in the show. Everyone dies (including the Dragons) and two Targaryen kids inherit the throne.
There is no stakes if you know all the main characters will either live or die.
“The prizes [for the Hand’s Tourney] are forty thousand gold dragons for the winner of the joust, twenty thousand dragons for the runner-up of the joust, twenty thousand dragons to the winner of the melee, and ten thousand dragons to the winner of the archery contest.”
40,000 gold dragons = 2500 POUNDS of gold
20,000 gold dragons = 1250 POUNDS of gold
20,000 gold dragons = 1250 POUNDS of gold
10,000 gold dragons = 625 POUNDS of gold
5625 POUNDS of gold total or 2.81 TONS of gold.
At the current gold price per ounce of $1820 x 90,000 ozs = $163,800,000
Gurm is the LAST person who should be talking about realism, the guy has only a tenuous pop-culture understanding of history at best.
why do you assume gold price to be comparable to modern day earth?
It could be it is much less rare or valued in the setting, given how they have all sorts of weird metals with desirable properties we do not have
“That was sweet to hear, but Cersei took care not to seem too eager. "Your High Holiness spoke of forgiveness earlier. In these troubled times, King Tommen would be most grateful if you could see your way to forgiving the crown's debt. It seems to me we owe the Faith some nine hundred thousand dragons."
"Nine hundred thousand six hundred and seventy-four dragons. Gold that could feed the hungry and rebuild a thousand septs."
1 ounce per
>1 ounce per
where'd you get the weight?
You mom's ass.
wow yeah people winning tens of millions of dollars in contests in unrealistic
what's more unrealistic is Ned being surprised that Robert was in debt
Medieval and royal monarchs were perennially in debt because they had a limited tax base (thanks to the tax-free status of the nobility and the clergy), a weak bureaucracy for the collection of said taxes, and because of the extreme expense of war and the high living monarchs were expected to maintain.
To give some examples: Robert Baratheon’s spiritual counterpart, Henry VIII, was £3 million in debt (or £1.2 billion in today’s money) and that was after he pillaged the monasteries of England and halted tithes to the Catholic Church. Other early modern monarchs fared even worse: Henry II of France (ruled 1547-1559) owed 40 million livres compared to an income of 12 million livres, and went bankrupt in 1557. The French monarchy didn’t recover its finances until around 1600 thanks to Henry IV’s appointment of Sully as his chief minister. His contemporary Phillip II of Spain, despite all the wealth of Mexico and Peru, went bankrupt three times (1557, 1560, and 1576), and historians suggest that his personal debts were equal to 60% of Spain’s GDP at the time.
stupid question don't bully: who were these monarchs in debt to? banks? merchants?
A lot of it was foreign debt to merchants, particularly dutch merchants (many of which were israeli).
>At the current gold price per ounce of $1820 x 90,000 ozs = $163,800,000
wow yeah people winning tens of millions of dollars in contests in unrealistic
>40,000 gold dragons = 2500 POUNDS of gold
where'd you get the weight?
assuming they're pure gold, maybe they are just backed by gold, or contain other metals as well as gold, agreed it is a bit ridiculous
What if they did like the Romans in harsh times and decreased the purity of their coins?
Tolkien was a philologist with a keen interest on old Germanic sagas and mythology and LotR was a hobby project he started after telling his children bed time stories and thought it would be a nice legacy to leave behind his own, modern saga.
Hence his story is a tale of heroes fighting evil and the "world building" is focused on languages and mythologies.
This moronic concept of "world building" didnt exist back then and to tell his story he didnt need to mention anybodys "tax policies" because it didnt matter.
He wrote a comfy story to his strenghts, now if Keynes wrote the Lord of the Rings there would have been chapters about taxation and trade instead of endless singing.
All the autistic obsession by "Tolkien scholars" the books sparked can be safely ignored in the context of Tolkien writing the story.
Did Martin make up his own languages? Did he write 61 rich poems which can be actually translate into these artificial languages? Did he write a mythos that is studied by autists all over the world to this day? No he didnt, he is just a fat hack and his books are a late 20th century fad fueled by nihilism and cynicism in stark contrast to the joy and optimism of the LotR.
Martin will be forgotten in the next 10 years, the LotR is immortal at this point.
LOTR aren't novels. They are not entertainment. They are prose epics for Northwestern/Celtic European prehistory.
There is a point where literature just becomes a dull, uninspiring product.
However literature can be written with so few resources it should be better than movies and video games which are dependent on large corporate backing to be compiled, with all the negative consequences. Literature is free and should be reserved for the finer things in live, Games of Thrones is just a leakage of bland, corporate consumer culture into literature, it symbolizes everything literature shouldnt be just like that Mormon shithead Sanderson and coke fiend Steven "King", frick all these midwit hypergraphic drug addicts and their thousands of pages of mental opioids and frick you for shilling this garbage and daring to compare it with something so amazing like LotR.
Nice box set of the finished series!
That set is ugly, glad i have the colour versions.
i always found the got map to look very moronic, uncreative and unrealistic. am i alone in this?
It's pretty creative as fantasy maps go. I've always pictured the continent as extending from the tip of Scotland down to Gibraltar (length-wise), which explains the variety in climates from top to bottom.
The regions should be more fragmented though, and when reading the books, you realize they are. The Florents and Hightowers only pay lip service to the Tyrells, and operate with near-independence. So do the Marcher Lords in Dorne, etc. Those divisions don't show up on a map though, but they're there.
It looks moronic because its shaped like an L
why is it shaped like the UK
Did they really kill little whitewalker babies in their whitewalker cribs?
>in debt a couple dozen millions
Not enough clearly
Why is it the Seven Kingdoms when there are eight divisions? Was House Greyjoy officially under Lannister or Tully?
When Aegon unified the continent there were Seven Kingdoms. The Iron Islands conquered few decades before the Riverlands, so that one wasnt autonomous. The Iron Isles royal house of the time, house Harren, even built a new capital in the continent and planned to move there: Harrenhall.
Aegon only conquered 6/7 of the Kingdoms (Dorne resisted), but by splitting the Iron Isles and the Riverlands the number within the new kingdom remained of seven, plus the lands directly under the Targs. So the title "Seven Kingdoms" remained
GRRM revealed his complete lack of knowledge of medieval history in that tax quote. He should have asked what Aragorn's rent policy was.
How's that?
The primary source of wealth extraction comes in a feudal system comes from the rent paid by peasants to lords, and vassals to their liege. Not in the form of a state wide tax system, which is a more early modern development.
Seems pedantic. Rent is generally referred to as taxes in the histories.
Yes, but tax implies a certain amount of state centralization that doesn't exist in the middle ages. Rent implies a more if direct relation between each manoral lord and their peasants, rather than peasants and the state. This means the manoral lords have direct power over their own lands, and the King relied more heavily on his own personal demesne.
Late middle ages were late for a reason. They presage the early modern period, so the roots of taxation are there. But the four centuries of pure feudalism before were much more manoral.
>Yes
Thank you for conceding the point.
>but tax implies a certain amount of state centralization that doesn't exist in the middle ages
[citation needed]
Oxford English Dictionary.
>Tax: A compulsory contribution to state revenue, levied by the government on workers' income and business profits, or added to the cost of some goods, services, and transactions.
Where is the implication of centralization that didn't exist?
So again,
[citation needed]
It did exist. England was highly centralized within it's feudal land tenure. This is why it was a military force to be reckoned with and had the ability to raise large amounts of money despite having a smaller population and wealth.
Kings had tax collectors.
>Yes, but tax implies a certain amount of state centralization that doesn't exist in the middle ages.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_medieval_England
wtf how did they have taxes?
They couldn't have had taxes. All the historians cited in that page are wrong, taxes were too centralized a concept for people 1000 years ago. They're all wrong.
You should explain what you mean by rent i.e. the use rights to wells, bridges, mills, etc or they might be confused
No it was not an early modern development. I just gave you an example of late middle ages where every man is poll-taxed in england. Also by Hundred Years War most of England's money came from Scutage, which was the military obligation paid in money. Which was then used to purchase contracts. Land Tenure works different in England. It's farm more organized than most of continental Europe.
GRRM probably has the best understanding of medieval history among fantasy period. It's not perfect and a lot of details like numbers are pretty inconsistent and off. The armor is usually wrong. However, a lot of details I've not seen from other authors. Also tax policy is not inaccurate. 14th Century Edward III had a tax on every adult.
And you see that reflected in what exactly?
Here is the King's poll-tax of 1379:
Duke of Lancaster (133s 4d)
Archbishops (133s 4d)
Bishops, Abbots and Priors (80s)
Barons and Knights (40s)
Alderman (40s)
Great Merchants (20s)
Squires (20s)
Monks and Canons (3s 4d)
Lesser Merchants (2s)
Men and Women over 16(4d)
The usual middle ages affair I imagine.
Each lord taxes those bellow them and then handles it however it's fitting.
The royals likely only taxed the high houses and those directly under them in the crown lands.
>writing literally invented during the ancient sumer to count taxes
>"hurr durr there was no taxes in the middle ages"
Peak American hours.
That was rent, not taxes.
No that is not correct. Norman England post William they implemented tax in addition to rent of the land. You had to pay the King his "rent" for the land, but you also had to pay the king his feudal tax as your lord. These are different incomes for different reasons. The military tax was either paid in contribution of knights and retainers or it could be waved off to be paid as a fee for not contributing in the form of scutage. There are multiple incomes more than just rent. The Term "rent" itself comes from Middle English rente, from Anglo-French, payment, income. You are literally using a word that derived from the high middle ages, in this very English taxation system.
Incorrect, tax implies a certain amount of state centralization that doesn't exist in the middle ages. Rent implies a more if direct relation between each manoral lord and their peasants, rather than peasants and the state. This means the manoral lords have direct power over their own lands, and the King relied more heavily on his own personal demesne.
Why don't you pick up a book and read the history for itself instead of spewing your crusader king's tier knowledge? YOu have not even referenced anything.
I already cited the Oxford English Dictionary:
Nice quads, but you can't just look at a definition in a dictionary and think you understand the history in context. The middle ages had government and organization that was extremely complicated and differed widely across Europe among different kingdoms and cultures.
Furthermore, I want to add that in Norman England, there was no distinction between the King's household and the government. While the two gradually became more separate, the King throughout the middle ages for the most part, WAS the government. These taxes are centralized incomes to country like governments.
I never said they had no taxes. I said that a primarily tax based system was an early modern development (although it had also existed before feudalism in the centralized Roman world), whereas beforehand rent from personal demesnes were the primary source of revenue.
Read any academic overview of the middle ages, like Chris Wickham's Medieval Europe. Decentralization is inherent to the feudal system where individual lords control land and offer tribute to the King, and centralization develops over time as the King acumulates land and power over the lords. England was slightly different because the Norman Conquest had centralized authority to an extent unlike that of the rest of Europe and thus taxes were more significant for royal revenue, but still followed the same pattern.
Sounds like you weren't really adding anything to the conversation except being pedantic.
getting up from my bederos to go to workeros, might grab lunch at mcdonaldseros later
Universal land tax and high tariffs
>essos has dozens of languages, and even the free city tongues are different despite having a common cultural heritage as colonies of Valyria
>the 7 Kingdom's all have the exact same language with no dialects. Not even Dorne.
?????
>What exactly was the tax policy here?
Normies don't even know this, but medieval kings were in constant money problems because the lords didn't pay taxes, their rent was paid as military service. So, the monarchs depended on their domain for upkeep.
And considering the Westeros kings don't have any (apparently) the Crownland isn't even crownland it is full of vassals.
>being obsessed with the pulp fiction of an obese man from Bayonne, New Jersey
The people who are arguing that Westeros has no tax collection system really need to update their lore knowledge.
The Defiance of Duskendale was sparked because the local lord wanted to basically make his port a free trade zone where he wouldn't have to pay taxes on goods and stuff. When Arys went to negotiate in person he was kidnapped.
Tyrion also starts taxing brothels sort of while he is in KL. The Imp's Penny or whatever they call it.
Tax implies a certain amount of state centralization that doesn't exist in the middle ages. Rent implies a more if direct relation between each manoral lord and their peasants, rather than peasants and the state. This means the manoral lords have direct power over their own lands, and the King relied more heavily on his own personal demesne.
This isn't the middle ages.
This is fantasy with dragons. If George wants taxes to exist than they exist