No.
Watchmen is terrible to read as your 'only capeshit' because it can only be understood and enjoyed if you have the context of normal superhero stories in their many forms and types.
If you want to enjoy it on any level beyond - >omg why can't all capeshit be this adult and mature!!! >whoa maaaannn, superheros can have some negative implications, what if superman was evil too!!!
- yeah you need to go into it after having read a good amount of standard superhero comics. So that you get the point of the criticism rather than interpret it on a facile level.
Watchmen isn't even capeshit. There's barely any action. There's just a mystery that they need to solve. It's pulp. It's Sun City with superheroes. You don't need to read golden age comics to get Watchmen.
No.
Watchmen is terrible to read as your 'only capeshit' because it can only be understood and enjoyed if you have the context of normal superhero stories in their many forms and types.
The question wasn't "which is the only comic you should read in your life", though. It's which iconic comic must you read at some point. Watchmen qualifies.
You give this to people who don't read comics with a "Hey, you know know the Godfather? This is that but with costumed crazies added for good measure." Then you have their attention on two fronts.
Watchmen, Year One, and DKR are much better but probably something like All Star Superman or DC The New Frontier if you want to go with a modern comic. The former are deconstructionist or at least are introducing a lot more grittiness and "realism" into the genre, the latter are reconstructionist comics which give you some sense of the appeal of the original material.
But honestly I think you get a better sense of capeshit by reading the great month to month cape comics from the 60s-85. ASM, Silver Age Superman, Lee/Kirby FF, Claremont UXM. The reconstruction/deconstruction dichotomy comes out of the late 80s and 90s really and neither side really accurately reflects what made the genre popular in the first place. The deconstructionists have an (understandable) frustration with the infantile aspects of the genre, how the stories never end, some of the political implications and the reconstructionist have an (understandable) frustration with the wave of edgelord trash that Watchmen/DKR imitators churned out and are (less understandably to me) driven by baby boomer nostalgia. Go back and read the older stuff and you'll understand both the limitations and the appeal of the genre a lot more I think.
Yeah, that's a good point. It's an interesting thing to compare the revisionists/reconstructionists with the OG Silver Age guys. Dudes like Morrison and Johns see 60s-70s capeshit in this weird quasi-religious aura, they give it this completely over the top level of meaning that just wasn't there in the original material. Besides Stan comparing Marvel to Shakespeare or whatever, and that was a marketing thing and probably, hopefully, not his sincere estimation of the literary importance of Marvel, industry people in the 60s treated comics as basically just a job. A lot of the absurdity of that era that's so fun to read today, and probably was at the time too, is the result of the fact that this was sort of hackwork for little kids that had to conform to a bunch of arbitrary rules, at DC that's especially visible. And the guys like Kirby or Gil Kane who had ambitions higher than making corporate comics ended up being pretty bitter at the industry and at least in Kane's case, specifically at the superhero genre itself.
So yeah, tldr I do think calling it revisionism would be more accurate. You have to ignore a lot of history and have rose colored glasses on to see that old stuff as high literature or mythology or whatever. But that doesn't mean it isn't worth reading, it's a lot more worth reading than capeshit from at least 1990 on imo.
Yeah, that's a good point. It's an interesting thing to compare the revisionists/reconstructionists with the OG Silver Age guys. Dudes like Morrison and Johns see 60s-70s capeshit in this weird quasi-religious aura, they give it this completely over the top level of meaning that just wasn't there in the original material. Besides Stan comparing Marvel to Shakespeare or whatever, and that was a marketing thing and probably, hopefully, not his sincere estimation of the literary importance of Marvel, industry people in the 60s treated comics as basically just a job. A lot of the absurdity of that era that's so fun to read today, and probably was at the time too, is the result of the fact that this was sort of hackwork for little kids that had to conform to a bunch of arbitrary rules, at DC that's especially visible. And the guys like Kirby or Gil Kane who had ambitions higher than making corporate comics ended up being pretty bitter at the industry and at least in Kane's case, specifically at the superhero genre itself.
So yeah, tldr I do think calling it revisionism would be more accurate. You have to ignore a lot of history and have rose colored glasses on to see that old stuff as high literature or mythology or whatever. But that doesn't mean it isn't worth reading, it's a lot more worth reading than capeshit from at least 1990 on imo.
What would you say is a comic that says "FRICK DECONSTRUCTIONISTS"
>The deconstructionists have an (understandable) frustration with the infantile aspects of the genre, how the stories never end, some of the political implications
We got over that in the 90s tho
See The Maxx and The Mask
Frankly, I would recommend not reading any capeshit in the first place. That includes parodies, "deconstructions" and similar like Watchmen and The Boys, because in order to fully appreciate those you need to have read at least a bit of vanilla capeshit, and it just ain't worth it.
Incincible
Not even being ironic either, and I've been reading and collecting for 35 years.
1. hits all the classic notes, good and bad
2. solid art and writing throughout
3. not up it's own ass like Killing Joke
4. actually ends with resolution
>You need to have a basic understanding of Superhero tropes for Invincible's writing to work on you.
Which everyone in the western world has thanks to the capeshit onslaught this last 2 decades.
Capeshit doesn't do comics in earnst. Every reference is tongue in cheek or winking at the audience like "heh isn't this stuff dumb?" Meanwhile an actual bronze or silver age comic can take a guy putting on a Batsuit to scare criminals and make decades of sincere stories.
Detective Comics #567: The Night of Thanks but No Thanks!
Batman Year One
Action Comics #1
Superman Earth One
Spider-Man #90-You Will Believe a Man Can Die
Hulk The End
Watchmen
All Star Superman.
This is a solid response but I'd say it's not on the level of Kirby's F4 due to any artist who is not Ditko or Romita filling in, Stan spamming the same plots (frick off Lizard) and Romita's early growing issues when he's still trying to replicate Ditko
They are strong but he's just replicating Ditko in the classic Marvel house style. He doesn't actually draw like John Romita until almost halfway through the run when he gets his brush out.
This is a solid response but I'd say it's not on the level of Kirby's F4 due to any artist who is not Ditko or Romita filling in, Stan spamming the same plots (frick off Lizard) and Romita's early growing issues when he's still trying to replicate Ditko
I kind of agree with you, but if you want to be really pedantic you could say silver age Marvel must be experienced in the context of the sillier silver age DC stories. This could go on and on until you reach pulp magazines.
The answer is Watchmen because this comic is read even by non comic readers like those snob literature readers. Maus is a another example.
Sandman and DKR are 2º and 3º place within comics and what I like to call The Big 3. and the Top 5 include Killing Joke and Maus.
The question was about cape comics. Maus doesn't count.
This is a solid response but I'd say it's not on the level of Kirby's F4 due to any artist who is not Ditko or Romita filling in, Stan spamming the same plots (frick off Lizard) and Romita's early growing issues when he's still trying to replicate Ditko
Neither of them are as great as everyone says. I find a lot of the issues of either aren't very entertaining.
The question was about cape comics. Maus doesn't count.
[...]
Neither of them are as great as everyone says. I find a lot of the issues of either aren't very entertaining.
Maus is carried by the socially-conditioned (whether legitimate or not) weight of the holocaust. It didn't produce any of that weight on its own, it was produced by postwar public education and propaganda. I read Maus and couldn't name two scenes outside of something about a grocery store at the end.
It'd be like making a comic with lizards about 9/11 and calling that one of the best comics ever just because 9/11 is sad.
The father learning how to fix boots based on watching a guy do it once, and his neuroticism about hangers stuck with me.
Maus is well made in terms of really communicating to you a person, not a great or kind person. But someone that is an actual human.
3 come to mind: Batman Year One, Daredevil: Born Again, Amazing Fantasy 15 and the first 100 issues of Amazing Spider-Man
I love Watchmen, but I think part of the answer comes from what you’re looking for out of it.
Because Watchmen is a great story, but if I am picking a story that I am saying is a must-read I will likely pick stories that perfectly encapsulate what I consider the best aspects of comic books. Whether or not you consider Watchmen a “deconstruction” it’s definitely a criticism in many regards.
Born Again does that. It runs the gambit of what makes the concept of a superhero so special, what it means to be a hero, the consequences that come with it, and the type of character that rises against all odds to save the day. It’s not just about wearing spandex and fighting bad guys, it’s about the hope and determination that comes with it.
Born Again perfected all of those ideas being condensed. He’s put through the wringer in ways most heroes never do and he overcomes all of the obstacles presented. He struggles, he almost gives up, he bleeds, but he still prevails.
It’s so perfect that it even perfects heroes within a panel each. You see the spectrum of these characters and it’s amazing.
>It's not exactly self-contained.
It’s not hard at all to get into as a novice. I’ve gotten a number of people hooked on Daredevil from it.
Some of these elements are in Watchmen more than they are in Born Again, and there are other aspects that aren't like superhero origins and legacies. It's admittedly more human than super, but the point stands. >runs the gambit
gamut >of what makes the concept of a superhero so special, what it means to be a hero
Not really, at least, not in a universal sense. >It’s not hard at all to get into as a novice. I’ve gotten a number of people hooked on Daredevil from it.
That's fine, but what I'm saying is it has no beginning or end. Lots of things happened before and will happen after. Your other two picks also have no end.
>gamut
Typo >Not really, at least, not in a universal sense.
Explain to me how it isn’t. He literally is punished by the consequences of being Daredevil, then his ultimate response is to save a shit load of people then stay as convicted as ever to protecting the innocent. >That's fine, but what I'm saying is it has no beginning or end.
It does though. It begins with his downfall and ends with his rise and a blow to Fisk’s reputation. It’s still a story arc. >Your other two picks also have no end.
What exactly constitutes an end to you? Why is it so necessary for there to be a definitive one? Part of the concept of a superhero tends to be that it never really ends. Good and evil struggle, the fight moves on. Year One is about the genesis of Batman and Gordon’s moral struggles. You don’t need a super specific ending for a story to work.
>his ultimate response
You bypassed his initial reaction to make it fit your argument, but it still doesn't. First, he went straight for Fisk. He got his ass handed to him, almost died, then was rescued by his mother, which is a more religious approach to his redemption, specific to this character, not universal. Then he saved and forgave the woman that betrayed him, another religious aspect of this comic. Then there's the stuff with the city newspaper and bringing crime boss Fisk down using his own "asset", but then it's part of a political statement and a tribute to a celebrated creator. Gets a little muddled here. >It begins with his downfall and ends with his rise
It's dependent on what came before. His beef with Kingpin, and even his run-in with Turk, are part of a larger story that exists. >Why is it so necessary for there to be a definitive one?
Because we're taking about THE definitive comic. I love Born Again, it's one of my favorite comics, a great classic, but it's not my top pick for THE iconic must-read.
11 months ago
Anonymous
>You bypassed his initial reaction to make it fit your argument
Because I explain my point without needing to go line-by-line. Try reading comprehension, because that has nothing to do with my response.
Also >His
Lol ok dude. Just say it was you, it’s not a big deal. >First, he went straight for Fisk. He got his ass handed to him, almost died, then was rescued by his mother, which is a more religious approach to his redemption, specific to this character, not universal.
I legitimately don’t understand how you’re missing the point this hard. The entire comic is about his personal struggle in a situation he created by being Daredevil, then ended the comic with a stronger resolve. You’re purposefully diminishing the comic’s story in order to make your point. By the end Fisk backfires and the sole man triumphs with a vow to clean up Hell’s Kitchen. It’s about the odyssey of the hero and surviving the tests to his sanity and character. He took those trials as a consequence for being Daredevil, was still Daredevil by the end, and even rose up to fight a threat much larger than he is. >It's dependent on what came before. His beef with Kingpin, and even his run-in with Turk, are part of a larger story that exists.
You sound like someone who needs to be sat down and explained everything like a toddler, because once you get the context it’s no where near as hard as you’re implying. Again, I’ve gotten people into Dadedevil just by Born Again, which wouldn’t work if it wasn’t accessible. Context or brief dialogue is enough sometimes. >Because we're taking about THE definitive comic. Born Again, it's one of my favorite comics, a great classic, but it's not my top pick for THE iconic must-read.
Are you sure you like it? Because it has no super-definitive-end like you love so much, simply a resolution to the story.
11 months ago
Anonymous
>Because I explain my point without needing to go line-by-line
No, you're simplifying your point so it fits your criteria, making it seem something it really isn't. >Lol ok dude. Just say it was you, it’s not a big deal.
I was referring to Matt Murdock. >You’re purposefully diminishing the comic’s story in order to make your point
Again, you're trying to fit the comic into this argument you've built for it, but that's not how things work. Notice how generalized your breakdown is. You're ignoring the religious aspect hard. >Again, I’ve gotten people into Dadedevil just by Born Again
That's kind of foolish. You've gotten people into the character by pointing them to his greatest story. All they have to look forward to now is diminishing returns, unless they're charactergays.
One thing is not getting lost in the story, and another thing is getting the complete package. Born Again is not the complete package. You say it yourself when you mention you've "gotten people into Daredevil". >Are you sure you like it? Because it has no super-definitive-end like you love so much, simply a resolution to the story.
I love it, but I'm not trying to force it to fit the prompt of this thread just because it's a favorite. Some of the other picks ITT are far worse, of course.
I'm not sure why you're getting so upset.
11 months ago
Anonymous
>No, you're simplifying your point so it fits your criteria, making it seem something it really isn't.
Just saying something doesn’t make it true, anon. It’s not my job to hold your hand if you can’t comprehend something when I laid it out. >I was referring to Matt Murdock.
Then you’re making zero sense because I didn’t. His initial reaction is human and shows what he went through from top to bottom. You’re adding shit to say I was making an argument that I didn’t make. His initial reaction is part of what makes his emotional triumph worth it. I never ignored it. > Again, you're trying to fit the comic into this argument you've built for it, but that's not how things work. Notice how generalized your breakdown is. You're ignoring the religious aspect hard.
Again, saying things and not backing it up doesn’t mean I’m wrong. And I didn’t mention the religious element because it isn’t why I consider it definitive and it didn’t need to be addressed, despite it still being really good.
>That's kind of foolish. You've gotten people into the character by pointing them to his greatest story.
So you don’t recommend a character’s best stories to people? That’s backwards as frick. >Here’s a not so good story but there’s a really good one out there I promise
What a ridiculous response.
>One thing is not getting lost in the story, and another thing is getting the complete package. Born Again is not the complete package. You say it yourself when you mention you've "gotten people into Daredevil".
The story arc has a beginning and general end. It has repercussions in the above to run but Born Again has an arc. I have no idea why you are so obsessed with “This is the beginning, now this is the end no take-backsies.” Most superhero comic stories will have open ends because they’re ongoings, that doesn’t mean there wasn’t a specific story in the run. Not everyone needs someone to tell them every detail to pick up context.
11 months ago
Anonymous
*Nocenti run
11 months ago
Anonymous
>Just saying something doesn’t make it true
Right back at you. >You’re adding shit to say I was making an argument that I didn’t make
I'm telling it how it happened in the story.
You completely glossed over it to get to your point. You put Matt wanting revenge as "being put through the wringer". >And I didn’t mention the religious element because it isn’t why I consider it definitive and it didn’t need to be addressed
You left it out because it's convenient that way. It's a very prevalent and character-specific aspect of this story and it only hurts your argument. >So you don’t recommend a character’s best stories to people?
Not as an intro to a character, especially when the comics leading up to it are quite good as well, and when those comics increase the impact of the character's best story. What you're doing is stealing. >I have no idea why you are so obsessed with “This is the beginning, now this is the end no take-backsies.”
It's the thread topic that you don't seem to understand. >Most superhero comic stories
are shit. You shouldn't want the end-all, be-all comic to share the negative traits of the genre.
>I'm not sure why you're getting so upset.
Always a great argument tactic when your point makes no sense, accuse someone of being upset.
The fact is you keep accusing me of altering the argument and facts when it’s obvious that you straight up don’t understand what I was saying in the first place, which I spelled out already.
You keep talking shit, like when you called me a toddler. You're upset, otherwise you wouldn't resort to such harsh language.
I understand you perfectly. You're not altering your argument or twisting facts, you're omitting aspects of the comic that take away from your argument and wording your description in a way as to make the story appear more universal and archetypal.
11 months ago
Anonymous
>I'm not sure why you're getting so upset.
Always a great argument tactic when your point makes no sense, accuse someone of being upset.
The fact is you keep accusing me of altering the argument and facts when it’s obvious that you straight up don’t understand what I was saying in the first place, which I spelled out already.
Detective Comics #567: The Night of Thanks but No Thanks!
Batman Year One
Action Comics #1
Superman Earth One
Spider-Man #90-You Will Believe a Man Can Die
Hulk The End
Watchmen
All Star Superman.
I just reread American Alien. Nah it doesn't even come close to Earth One.
11 months ago
Anonymous
Well I guess it just goes to show that art is subjective.
11 months ago
Anonymous
Don't get me wrong. American Alien is fine. It's a good must read Superman story. But not if you no nothing about Superman and wanted a feel for his character. It's not like For All Seasons or Earth One.
literally all Snyder had to do was not let Jonathan die in a frickin tornado. To this day I can't defend that scene especially when a heart attack has more impact. Also rewrite the "What should i do? Let them die?" into something less dreary.
But yeah you see scenes like this and it's nearly the same as man of steel. The only reason he did those two scenes that I mentioned is because Zack desperately wanted to reference Smallville (yep. the show).
It's absolutely horrible. Imagine all the worst parts of cinematic comics without any of the interesting elements from earlier cinematic stuff like The Ultimates or Morrison's JLA. You know how some of the lazier Image stuff feels like Netflix pitches? Earth One is like that but for bland capeshit movies. 2 and 3 are each a little better than the stuff before them but I'd ignore the entire series if I were you.
>Whatever Happened to the Man of Tommorow >What's So Funny About Truth Justice and the American Way
For the Man Who Has Everything is brilliant but I never understood the appeal of these two, and I like Superman a lot. Maybe WHttMoT just got my hopes set unreasonably high since it's Moore but it feels like he's just throwing action figures around basically. It's definitely a 10x better Superman dies story than Death but idk why it's considered such a classic.
And then TJatAW is one of these preachy, shallowly sentimental, kitschy stories that really plague Superman comics. I like Superman a lot but smashing readers over the head with simplistic moralism and telling them how meaningful and inspiring the character is is bad storytelling and it's cheap, if you want people to think the character is important then tell meaningful stories with him instead of telling stories about how meaningful he is. For All Seasons, All Star, and a few other stories that fit this vein are great but for the most part, the best Superman stories are ones where writers drop the nostalgia and Superman-as-Jesus/hope incarnate/everything good about America shtick and just tell engaging capeshit stories.
>What's So Funny About Truth Justice and the American Way.
What makes it part of a trilogy? I have never heard of it.
The two Moore stories aren't even related.
Is the joker war good, it's constantly mentioned in the newer comics I read. If it's good and integral to the newer world of batpeople I'll order it on Amazon right now I want more physical books.
It's funny that when you think of the must read, greatest of all time comics, the ones that end up in the best BOOKS of all time lists, Marvel stories rarely come up. DC really had their hands on the best of the best
Few and far between. I don't even think Civil War was all that good. And Secret Wars? Forget it. But those are the ones that get bought up as Marvel's best.
Uncanny X-Men #205. It's the one where Spiral turns Lady Deathstrike into a cyborg, but that's not the main draw. The main draw is the slow build in the relationship between Wolverine and Katie Power.
Death of Captain Stacy (Spider-Man #1)
Six Arm Saga (The Amazing Spider-Man #100-#102)
Both. The fact that you can have someone close to the hero die, which causes fallout in his relationships, and follow it up with a dude turning into a giant man spider to fight a vampire. It's a true balance of comic book campyness and tragedy.
Underrated but probably Iron Man by Michelinie and Layton, Iron Man isn't one dimensional anymore, kicks communist ass and deals with some tough trials and tribulations not to mention the art is top tier.
>is THE most iconic must-read cape comic?
No.
Watchmen /thread
I hate capeshit but Watchmen was good
came to post
No.
Watchmen is terrible to read as your 'only capeshit' because it can only be understood and enjoyed if you have the context of normal superhero stories in their many forms and types.
That's not true. That's not even close to being true.
If you want to enjoy it on any level beyond -
>omg why can't all capeshit be this adult and mature!!!
>whoa maaaannn, superheros can have some negative implications, what if superman was evil too!!!
- yeah you need to go into it after having read a good amount of standard superhero comics. So that you get the point of the criticism rather than interpret it on a facile level.
Watchmen isn't even capeshit. There's barely any action. There's just a mystery that they need to solve. It's pulp. It's Sun City with superheroes. You don't need to read golden age comics to get Watchmen.
>Watchmen isn't even capeshit.
Correct, it's capekino.
SPBP
The question wasn't "which is the only comic you should read in your life", though. It's which iconic comic must you read at some point. Watchmen qualifies.
this, is the most normalgay for normalgays book ever.
Part of why it's the prime choice.
It's entry-level AND exit-level capekino.
All-Star Superman
This. I'm tired of everyone pushing these edgy, cynical, deconstructionist stories as peak cape fiction.
>edgy, cynical, deconstructionist
I love All-Star, but opinion absolutely discarded.
All Star is literally the opposite of that.
Learn to read?
I know. I'm sorry. I'm so embarrassed.
Killing Joke /co/llab mosaic version
Link?
https://imgur.io/a/nhQwcIM
The Dark Knight Returns
frank miller draws like a toddler and his stories are shit
So a guy with shit stories and toddler-tier art skills destroys almost everyone else in the genre?
That's fricking embarrassing.
Cape comics are generally embarrassingly bad yeah
Nemesis
Batman RIP
The Long Halloween
You give this to people who don't read comics with a "Hey, you know know the Godfather? This is that but with costumed crazies added for good measure." Then you have their attention on two fronts.
Watchmen, Year One, and DKR are much better but probably something like All Star Superman or DC The New Frontier if you want to go with a modern comic. The former are deconstructionist or at least are introducing a lot more grittiness and "realism" into the genre, the latter are reconstructionist comics which give you some sense of the appeal of the original material.
But honestly I think you get a better sense of capeshit by reading the great month to month cape comics from the 60s-85. ASM, Silver Age Superman, Lee/Kirby FF, Claremont UXM. The reconstruction/deconstruction dichotomy comes out of the late 80s and 90s really and neither side really accurately reflects what made the genre popular in the first place. The deconstructionists have an (understandable) frustration with the infantile aspects of the genre, how the stories never end, some of the political implications and the reconstructionist have an (understandable) frustration with the wave of edgelord trash that Watchmen/DKR imitators churned out and are (less understandably to me) driven by baby boomer nostalgia. Go back and read the older stuff and you'll understand both the limitations and the appeal of the genre a lot more I think.
The correct answer is Watchmen, but as the other anon mentioned, it's better if you know a bit.
I wouldn't call them "deconstructionist", but instead "revisionist".
Reconstruction is not a thing.
Yeah, that's a good point. It's an interesting thing to compare the revisionists/reconstructionists with the OG Silver Age guys. Dudes like Morrison and Johns see 60s-70s capeshit in this weird quasi-religious aura, they give it this completely over the top level of meaning that just wasn't there in the original material. Besides Stan comparing Marvel to Shakespeare or whatever, and that was a marketing thing and probably, hopefully, not his sincere estimation of the literary importance of Marvel, industry people in the 60s treated comics as basically just a job. A lot of the absurdity of that era that's so fun to read today, and probably was at the time too, is the result of the fact that this was sort of hackwork for little kids that had to conform to a bunch of arbitrary rules, at DC that's especially visible. And the guys like Kirby or Gil Kane who had ambitions higher than making corporate comics ended up being pretty bitter at the industry and at least in Kane's case, specifically at the superhero genre itself.
So yeah, tldr I do think calling it revisionism would be more accurate. You have to ignore a lot of history and have rose colored glasses on to see that old stuff as high literature or mythology or whatever. But that doesn't mean it isn't worth reading, it's a lot more worth reading than capeshit from at least 1990 on imo.
What would you say is a comic that says "FRICK DECONSTRUCTIONISTS"
Kingdom Come is probably the most direct about it but it's not a good comic.
Miracle Man, unironically.
>The deconstructionists have an (understandable) frustration with the infantile aspects of the genre, how the stories never end, some of the political implications
We got over that in the 90s tho
See The Maxx and The Mask
This unironically. Fun stuff and I wish they did more of this.
Just realized this isn't iconic, but it is a must-read cape comic.
qrd
I'll storytime it later
I'll be there
Watchmen
>iconic
Watchmen.
>must-read
Astro City.
>Astro City
Currently reading this, and I wholeheartedly disagree.
Frankly, I would recommend not reading any capeshit in the first place. That includes parodies, "deconstructions" and similar like Watchmen and The Boys, because in order to fully appreciate those you need to have read at least a bit of vanilla capeshit, and it just ain't worth it.
Batman Year One
Incincible
Not even being ironic either, and I've been reading and collecting for 35 years.
1. hits all the classic notes, good and bad
2. solid art and writing throughout
3. not up it's own ass like Killing Joke
4. actually ends with resolution
easily in my top 5 cape books all time.
*invincible
>Actually ends with resolution
This alone makes it top 5 capeshit.
1, 2, and 3 don't apply to Invincible.
>1, 2, and 3 don't apply to Invincible.
No, nostalgia bullshit doesn't apply to Invincible, except for Kirkman's.
You need to have a basic understanding of Superhero tropes for Invincible's writing to work on you.
>You need to have a basic understanding of Superhero tropes for Invincible's writing to work on you.
Which everyone in the western world has thanks to the capeshit onslaught this last 2 decades.
Capeshit doesn't do comics in earnst. Every reference is tongue in cheek or winking at the audience like "heh isn't this stuff dumb?" Meanwhile an actual bronze or silver age comic can take a guy putting on a Batsuit to scare criminals and make decades of sincere stories.
>Action Comics
Based
Invincible is a lot of things but its absolutely hits the classic notes 1) and its not 3) up its own ass.
>up its own ass
I still don't know what this means.
>I've been reading and collecting for 35 years.
My condolences.
>Wasting 15 of 35 years on Kirkman middling shit that doesn't know when to wrap it up
All-Star Superman
Like so many "iconic" Superman stories it completely relies on nostalgia for the Silver Age books.
It does not. I takes inspiration from it and creates something modern and new
Unless you want to read Action Comics #1, all comics rely on nostalgia. Comics have been a cultural phenomenon for decades now.
Amazing Fantasy 15/ASM Issue 1 Vol. 1 to ASM Issue 122 Vol. 1
Nope.
This is a solid response but I'd say it's not on the level of Kirby's F4 due to any artist who is not Ditko or Romita filling in, Stan spamming the same plots (frick off Lizard) and Romita's early growing issues when he's still trying to replicate Ditko
>Romita's early growing issues when he's still trying to replicate Ditko
ASM 39 and 40 onwards was strong as frick, what’re you smoking.
They are strong but he's just replicating Ditko in the classic Marvel house style. He doesn't actually draw like John Romita until almost halfway through the run when he gets his brush out.
>to ASM 300 and SSM 1-200
fixed it for you
I kind of agree with you, but if you want to be really pedantic you could say silver age Marvel must be experienced in the context of the sillier silver age DC stories. This could go on and on until you reach pulp magazines.
Frank Miller's Daredevil.
More like iconic must-read rape comic!
There's no rape in The Killing Joke.
Are you talking about when barb fricked him? That wasn't in the comic
The answer is Watchmen because this comic is read even by non comic readers like those snob literature readers. Maus is a another example.
Sandman and DKR are 2º and 3º place within comics and what I like to call The Big 3. and the Top 5 include Killing Joke and Maus.
The question was about cape comics. Maus doesn't count.
Neither of them are as great as everyone says. I find a lot of the issues of either aren't very entertaining.
Maus is carried by the socially-conditioned (whether legitimate or not) weight of the holocaust. It didn't produce any of that weight on its own, it was produced by postwar public education and propaganda. I read Maus and couldn't name two scenes outside of something about a grocery store at the end.
It'd be like making a comic with lizards about 9/11 and calling that one of the best comics ever just because 9/11 is sad.
I liked Maus because of how much of a piece of shit the father was.
The father learning how to fix boots based on watching a guy do it once, and his neuroticism about hangers stuck with me.
Maus is well made in terms of really communicating to you a person, not a great or kind person. But someone that is an actual human.
Maus is overrated, but you're down playing it. It's not complete slop like Schindler's List
3 come to mind: Batman Year One, Daredevil: Born Again, Amazing Fantasy 15 and the first 100 issues of Amazing Spider-Man
I love Watchmen, but I think part of the answer comes from what you’re looking for out of it.
Why Born Again over something like Watchmen? It's not exactly self-contained.
Because Watchmen is a great story, but if I am picking a story that I am saying is a must-read I will likely pick stories that perfectly encapsulate what I consider the best aspects of comic books. Whether or not you consider Watchmen a “deconstruction” it’s definitely a criticism in many regards.
Born Again does that. It runs the gambit of what makes the concept of a superhero so special, what it means to be a hero, the consequences that come with it, and the type of character that rises against all odds to save the day. It’s not just about wearing spandex and fighting bad guys, it’s about the hope and determination that comes with it.
Born Again perfected all of those ideas being condensed. He’s put through the wringer in ways most heroes never do and he overcomes all of the obstacles presented. He struggles, he almost gives up, he bleeds, but he still prevails.
It’s so perfect that it even perfects heroes within a panel each. You see the spectrum of these characters and it’s amazing.
>It's not exactly self-contained.
It’s not hard at all to get into as a novice. I’ve gotten a number of people hooked on Daredevil from it.
Some of these elements are in Watchmen more than they are in Born Again, and there are other aspects that aren't like superhero origins and legacies. It's admittedly more human than super, but the point stands.
>runs the gambit
gamut
>of what makes the concept of a superhero so special, what it means to be a hero
Not really, at least, not in a universal sense.
>It’s not hard at all to get into as a novice. I’ve gotten a number of people hooked on Daredevil from it.
That's fine, but what I'm saying is it has no beginning or end. Lots of things happened before and will happen after. Your other two picks also have no end.
>gamut
Typo
>Not really, at least, not in a universal sense.
Explain to me how it isn’t. He literally is punished by the consequences of being Daredevil, then his ultimate response is to save a shit load of people then stay as convicted as ever to protecting the innocent.
>That's fine, but what I'm saying is it has no beginning or end.
It does though. It begins with his downfall and ends with his rise and a blow to Fisk’s reputation. It’s still a story arc.
>Your other two picks also have no end.
What exactly constitutes an end to you? Why is it so necessary for there to be a definitive one? Part of the concept of a superhero tends to be that it never really ends. Good and evil struggle, the fight moves on. Year One is about the genesis of Batman and Gordon’s moral struggles. You don’t need a super specific ending for a story to work.
>his ultimate response
You bypassed his initial reaction to make it fit your argument, but it still doesn't. First, he went straight for Fisk. He got his ass handed to him, almost died, then was rescued by his mother, which is a more religious approach to his redemption, specific to this character, not universal. Then he saved and forgave the woman that betrayed him, another religious aspect of this comic. Then there's the stuff with the city newspaper and bringing crime boss Fisk down using his own "asset", but then it's part of a political statement and a tribute to a celebrated creator. Gets a little muddled here.
>It begins with his downfall and ends with his rise
It's dependent on what came before. His beef with Kingpin, and even his run-in with Turk, are part of a larger story that exists.
>Why is it so necessary for there to be a definitive one?
Because we're taking about THE definitive comic. I love Born Again, it's one of my favorite comics, a great classic, but it's not my top pick for THE iconic must-read.
>You bypassed his initial reaction to make it fit your argument
Because I explain my point without needing to go line-by-line. Try reading comprehension, because that has nothing to do with my response.
Also
>His
Lol ok dude. Just say it was you, it’s not a big deal.
>First, he went straight for Fisk. He got his ass handed to him, almost died, then was rescued by his mother, which is a more religious approach to his redemption, specific to this character, not universal.
I legitimately don’t understand how you’re missing the point this hard. The entire comic is about his personal struggle in a situation he created by being Daredevil, then ended the comic with a stronger resolve. You’re purposefully diminishing the comic’s story in order to make your point. By the end Fisk backfires and the sole man triumphs with a vow to clean up Hell’s Kitchen. It’s about the odyssey of the hero and surviving the tests to his sanity and character. He took those trials as a consequence for being Daredevil, was still Daredevil by the end, and even rose up to fight a threat much larger than he is.
>It's dependent on what came before. His beef with Kingpin, and even his run-in with Turk, are part of a larger story that exists.
You sound like someone who needs to be sat down and explained everything like a toddler, because once you get the context it’s no where near as hard as you’re implying. Again, I’ve gotten people into Dadedevil just by Born Again, which wouldn’t work if it wasn’t accessible. Context or brief dialogue is enough sometimes.
>Because we're taking about THE definitive comic. Born Again, it's one of my favorite comics, a great classic, but it's not my top pick for THE iconic must-read.
Are you sure you like it? Because it has no super-definitive-end like you love so much, simply a resolution to the story.
>Because I explain my point without needing to go line-by-line
No, you're simplifying your point so it fits your criteria, making it seem something it really isn't.
>Lol ok dude. Just say it was you, it’s not a big deal.
I was referring to Matt Murdock.
>You’re purposefully diminishing the comic’s story in order to make your point
Again, you're trying to fit the comic into this argument you've built for it, but that's not how things work. Notice how generalized your breakdown is. You're ignoring the religious aspect hard.
>Again, I’ve gotten people into Dadedevil just by Born Again
That's kind of foolish. You've gotten people into the character by pointing them to his greatest story. All they have to look forward to now is diminishing returns, unless they're charactergays.
One thing is not getting lost in the story, and another thing is getting the complete package. Born Again is not the complete package. You say it yourself when you mention you've "gotten people into Daredevil".
>Are you sure you like it? Because it has no super-definitive-end like you love so much, simply a resolution to the story.
I love it, but I'm not trying to force it to fit the prompt of this thread just because it's a favorite. Some of the other picks ITT are far worse, of course.
I'm not sure why you're getting so upset.
>No, you're simplifying your point so it fits your criteria, making it seem something it really isn't.
Just saying something doesn’t make it true, anon. It’s not my job to hold your hand if you can’t comprehend something when I laid it out.
>I was referring to Matt Murdock.
Then you’re making zero sense because I didn’t. His initial reaction is human and shows what he went through from top to bottom. You’re adding shit to say I was making an argument that I didn’t make. His initial reaction is part of what makes his emotional triumph worth it. I never ignored it.
> Again, you're trying to fit the comic into this argument you've built for it, but that's not how things work. Notice how generalized your breakdown is. You're ignoring the religious aspect hard.
Again, saying things and not backing it up doesn’t mean I’m wrong. And I didn’t mention the religious element because it isn’t why I consider it definitive and it didn’t need to be addressed, despite it still being really good.
>That's kind of foolish. You've gotten people into the character by pointing them to his greatest story.
So you don’t recommend a character’s best stories to people? That’s backwards as frick.
>Here’s a not so good story but there’s a really good one out there I promise
What a ridiculous response.
>One thing is not getting lost in the story, and another thing is getting the complete package. Born Again is not the complete package. You say it yourself when you mention you've "gotten people into Daredevil".
The story arc has a beginning and general end. It has repercussions in the above to run but Born Again has an arc. I have no idea why you are so obsessed with “This is the beginning, now this is the end no take-backsies.” Most superhero comic stories will have open ends because they’re ongoings, that doesn’t mean there wasn’t a specific story in the run. Not everyone needs someone to tell them every detail to pick up context.
*Nocenti run
>Just saying something doesn’t make it true
Right back at you.
>You’re adding shit to say I was making an argument that I didn’t make
I'm telling it how it happened in the story.
You completely glossed over it to get to your point. You put Matt wanting revenge as "being put through the wringer".
>And I didn’t mention the religious element because it isn’t why I consider it definitive and it didn’t need to be addressed
You left it out because it's convenient that way. It's a very prevalent and character-specific aspect of this story and it only hurts your argument.
>So you don’t recommend a character’s best stories to people?
Not as an intro to a character, especially when the comics leading up to it are quite good as well, and when those comics increase the impact of the character's best story. What you're doing is stealing.
>I have no idea why you are so obsessed with “This is the beginning, now this is the end no take-backsies.”
It's the thread topic that you don't seem to understand.
>Most superhero comic stories
are shit. You shouldn't want the end-all, be-all comic to share the negative traits of the genre.
You keep talking shit, like when you called me a toddler. You're upset, otherwise you wouldn't resort to such harsh language.
I understand you perfectly. You're not altering your argument or twisting facts, you're omitting aspects of the comic that take away from your argument and wording your description in a way as to make the story appear more universal and archetypal.
>I'm not sure why you're getting so upset.
Always a great argument tactic when your point makes no sense, accuse someone of being upset.
The fact is you keep accusing me of altering the argument and facts when it’s obvious that you straight up don’t understand what I was saying in the first place, which I spelled out already.
RIP
sauce?
I wish I knew 🙁
For me it's Final Crisis.
That one's a really bad choice.
Claremont X-Men at least until issue #200. Preferably until the point in the Adjectiveless series where he leaves in '91.
Highly agree..this is one of the best single run in comics..too bad at this rate well never see a decent adaptation of them..Disney literal cancer
Claremont is the GOAT
Detective Comics #567: The Night of Thanks but No Thanks!
Batman Year One
Action Comics #1
Superman Earth One
Spider-Man #90-You Will Believe a Man Can Die
Hulk The End
Watchmen
All Star Superman.
Was Superman Earth One really that great?
It was. It's everything Snyder tried to do with Man of Steel but done right.
Well... have you read Superman: American Alien?
I have. And I think I actually might be getting the two confused. Which one had Superman fight Zod and call Ma Kent when he thought he might die?
I just reread American Alien. Nah it doesn't even come close to Earth One.
Well I guess it just goes to show that art is subjective.
Don't get me wrong. American Alien is fine. It's a good must read Superman story. But not if you no nothing about Superman and wanted a feel for his character. It's not like For All Seasons or Earth One.
My homie. That's exactly how I always describe it. Half the scenes in it are practically the same but with the biggest flaws removed.
literally all Snyder had to do was not let Jonathan die in a frickin tornado. To this day I can't defend that scene especially when a heart attack has more impact. Also rewrite the "What should i do? Let them die?" into something less dreary.
But yeah you see scenes like this and it's nearly the same as man of steel. The only reason he did those two scenes that I mentioned is because Zack desperately wanted to reference Smallville (yep. the show).
It's absolutely horrible. Imagine all the worst parts of cinematic comics without any of the interesting elements from earlier cinematic stuff like The Ultimates or Morrison's JLA. You know how some of the lazier Image stuff feels like Netflix pitches? Earth One is like that but for bland capeshit movies. 2 and 3 are each a little better than the stuff before them but I'd ignore the entire series if I were you.
Man of Steel #16 and Superman #72- Crisis at Hand. No comment. A good story where sometimes punching shit isn't the answer.
The Dark Knight Returns
The best good man in a bad world comic ever made.
>Earth X
>Kingdom Come
>Marvels
The pinnacles before everything needed to be "deconstructed"
These aren't good comics.
I can smell the stupid from here
Kingdom Come is my favorite.
The trilogy. Whatever Happened to the Man of Tommorow, For The Man Who Has Everything, and What's So Funny About Truth Justice and the American Way.
>Whatever Happened to the Man of Tommorow
>What's So Funny About Truth Justice and the American Way
For the Man Who Has Everything is brilliant but I never understood the appeal of these two, and I like Superman a lot. Maybe WHttMoT just got my hopes set unreasonably high since it's Moore but it feels like he's just throwing action figures around basically. It's definitely a 10x better Superman dies story than Death but idk why it's considered such a classic.
And then TJatAW is one of these preachy, shallowly sentimental, kitschy stories that really plague Superman comics. I like Superman a lot but smashing readers over the head with simplistic moralism and telling them how meaningful and inspiring the character is is bad storytelling and it's cheap, if you want people to think the character is important then tell meaningful stories with him instead of telling stories about how meaningful he is. For All Seasons, All Star, and a few other stories that fit this vein are great but for the most part, the best Superman stories are ones where writers drop the nostalgia and Superman-as-Jesus/hope incarnate/everything good about America shtick and just tell engaging capeshit stories.
>What's So Funny About Truth Justice and the American Way.
What makes it part of a trilogy? I have never heard of it.
The two Moore stories aren't even related.
Is the joker war good, it's constantly mentioned in the newer comics I read. If it's good and integral to the newer world of batpeople I'll order it on Amazon right now I want more physical books.
Amazing fantasy #15. Quintessential timeless cape kino
Not sure if these are all beginner friendly but here are my personal favorites so far
Garbo
I like Superman for All Seasons the best.
>must read
>cape shit
Ummmmmmm
uhhhhhmmm
There are a bunch of great comics but I would never use "must read" for any of them
You can't even read.
>complaining about Capeshit
>on fricking Cinemaphile
It's funny that when you think of the must read, greatest of all time comics, the ones that end up in the best BOOKS of all time lists, Marvel stories rarely come up. DC really had their hands on the best of the best
Few and far between. I don't even think Civil War was all that good. And Secret Wars? Forget it. But those are the ones that get bought up as Marvel's best.
I'd probably recommend the triangle era, only homosexual trannies think otherwise, Supes peaked here
t.reddit
Supes peaked with the silver age.
>t.homosexual of the Black personus
God Loves Man Kills.
Herakles was good. It was like if Gennedy Tartkofsky did Greek myths.
>cape comic
>modern mythology
Herakles is ancient mythology, so you lose.
Also, capeshit isn't modern mythology.
Also, Herakles isn't that good of a comic.
Leave me alone.
Uncanny X-Men #205. It's the one where Spiral turns Lady Deathstrike into a cyborg, but that's not the main draw. The main draw is the slow build in the relationship between Wolverine and Katie Power.
Does League of Extraordinary Gentlemen count as a cape comic?
nah
Yes.
no. literary figures are not superheroes in the sense we're using
Well then Watchmen shouldn't count either. That's a fake superhero team.
No. You're moronic.
It counts.
Death of Captain Stacy (Spider-Man #1)
Six Arm Saga (The Amazing Spider-Man #100-#102)
Both. The fact that you can have someone close to the hero die, which causes fallout in his relationships, and follow it up with a dude turning into a giant man spider to fight a vampire. It's a true balance of comic book campyness and tragedy.
Underrated but probably Iron Man by Michelinie and Layton, Iron Man isn't one dimensional anymore, kicks communist ass and deals with some tough trials and tribulations not to mention the art is top tier.