Much of it comes down to the performance of the actor. There is the sense that, whilst never a 'good' person, the Cardassian occupation sort of broke his mental state where he is in conflict and cope's through double think.
I live in a post conflict society that went through decades of low level conflict and I know loads of old shitheads like this, people who have had to adjust to "normal" peaceful life but are so broken by the shit they saw and have done themselves. Obsessed by the most minute meaningless political things and morally indignant about the most cruel violence like the mass murder of civilians. Dukat is charismatic, he would be very popular with a lot of people here who thought the same way he did
A good example of Alaimo elevating the material and the character is the exchange with Weyoun about resistance. Weyoun says that Earth's population must be exterminated, to which Dukat firmly says you can't do that; when asked why not Dukat does a drawn-out "because..." and then speaks of a true victory being about your enemy recognising you greatness. The intention by the writers is clearly just 'look at how megalomaniac Dukat is' however, the performance makes it seem that: at his deepest level he is morally appalled at the suggestion of exterminating Earth's population, he catches his response as overstepping his position and just saying no isn't going to make a difference, so he scrambles together a justification. Dukat buys into the lie as he tells it as that way he can self-excuse his complicity in the ugliness of it all by saying he prevented it from being worse.
Kino interpretation anon. Ive always seen it as dukat simply trying to get one over on weyoun, arguing for the sake of arguing as he holds onto the sense that cardassia has any power to dictate the dominion
Alaimo played Dukat like Othello, which is why people praise his performance. He's a Shakespearean actor meanwhile Terry Farrel and Nana Visitor were showing their breasts on TV and in magazines before they cot the call. The gulf in talent between the main cast (newbies, eye candy) and the supporting cast (seasoned veterans, theatre actors) was immense. Actually I'd say Rene was the only major billing actor who could actually act. DS9 was carried by the supporting cast.
>'look at how megalomaniac Dukat is'
I can't read it that way at all. A person shouldn't be fighting if they don't believe they are right. Convincing your enemy to see things your way is a better and more total victory than subjugating or murdering them. It's literally the same philosophy the Federation has in trying to "enlighten" all the other cultures they ally with. Only far more insidiously and through condescension.
It helps that he's super charismatic and engaging as a character while most Bajorans are kind of homosexual so you can sympathise with him hating them.
They just overreacted to people liking their villain, which was stupid. They should have just killed him off if they didn't want fans to keep rooting for him
The israelite show runners couldnt handle their literal muh hitler chracter had become a fan favourite so they had to ruin everything. season 7 was some of the worst television ever made and a complete bed shitting.
He’s completely unapologetic and unshakeable in his beliefs while having a smug demeanor. Plus he takes any chance to put the Bajorans in their place and he fricked Kiras mom.
He was a mid level manager of an occupation who genuinely saw himself as a hero and good guy. That dichotomy was very interesting.
I don't think many people like Dukat as a person but many, myself included, love him as a character.
I like him as a person too. He's pretty great, would have a beer with after work. I admire his self-confidence. Garak is the one that I like as a character but not as a person.
Garak is too self aware and cynical, something Dukat detests that for what it reveals about his own narcissism. Garak was the one character who could truly burrow under his skin and it had more to do than just killing his father
He was great until the point where they killed his daughter. Then he became a silly cartoon villain with the dumb showdown with Sisko, which probably would have been the dumbest finale in Star Trek history if we didn't have the Dominion War. People forget that the entire Dukat/Adami arc in the final season was hot garbage.
I thought season 7 was about the same as season 6... until the final arc kicked off after the holodeck breather. Ezri/Worf and Dukat/Adami was fricking painful, Sisko is doing literally nothing and Bashir is carrying the entire fricking show. I was so glad when Damar backstabbed the dominion and the focus shifted to Cardassia.
He's the sort of evil that is fully convinced in his own righteousness but nuanced enough to act in shades of gray which makes him a dangerous combo that's also charismatic to watch
>I don't think I've ever seen a character like Dukat in media wherein he's so popular they actively sabotage him to try and make the audience hate him
Homelander
I still enjoy his sleaze in donning a disguise and trying to bed an old b***hy woman, but his motivation is silly and muddled. It could have been remedied easily, even with all the same elements, by having the pah-wraiths tell Dukat that they hate Bajorans and want to wipe them out when they visit him in a vision. Instead they just tell him to let them out and he does it because he's suddenly a vengeful power hungry butthole.
>make ferengi >They are obviously space israelites and this somehow slipped past the producers >make 'real' israelites with the bajorans, poor baby victims who din do nuffin >make ontologically evil race of space nazis to oppress them for no reason >accidentally make them all hyper-charismatic, complex 5D characters while the bajorans are just whining homosexuals >try and sabotage them, run your whole show into the ground while you're at it
Fascists, racists and hatefuls in general see themselves in Dukat. Bajorans represent whatever group(s) they hate. Much like Dukat they delude themselves into believing that they are selfless heroes fighting for some greater cause, that they did nothing wrong (their favorite catchphrase) and that the victims deserved it. It is the timeless archtypical doctrine of hate that Dukat so perfectly embodies.
It is so telling that a character like Dukat, who is without doubt a murderer, liar, rapist and power hungry egomaniac, could so perfectly capture the hearts of the heartless. He is them. They are him. Dukat is their ugly truth laid bare and nothing wounded them more than when Dukat was ripped from his cloak of gray morality and thrust into the light to show what he truly is: a fricking monster.
Marc Alaimos performance for one. But I found that because you see him go through a lot of shit, his highs and lows, and a few genuinly touching moments where his smug façade drops, you can understand what makes him tick and even empathize with him. And at times you realize that he's just some guy like you stuck on the other side of a conflict. But then whenever you start liking him, he does something to remind you he's a slimy selfiqh prick. His story in season 5 to the beginning of season six culminating in the death of his daughter is a masterful tragedy of a talented and capable leader getting undone by his own arrogance and hubris, and I have to say I never felt such compassion for a charecter I absolutely hated like with Gol Dukat.
And then they turned him into an insane genocidal maniac and all of that went out the window.
>Rick Berman moves over to Voyager full time after Piller/Taylor retire >DS9 instantly goes to shit >VOY enters its best seasons
A P O L O G I Z E
P
O
L
O
G
I
Z
E
*morally grey characters with good motivations and their own warped moral compass
Far too many "grey" characters just end up being boring because they basically have no morals besides mememe
You can press a button to stop the flanderization of Dukat. However doing so means that he will no longer call up Kira in the middle of the night to tell her that he fricked her mother and that she liked it. Do you press the button?
I'd press it, that was fricking hillarious, but I would prefer more Dukat kino
You can press a button to stop the flanderization of Dukat. However doing so means that he will no longer call up Kira in the middle of the night to tell her that he fricked her mother and that she liked it. Do you press the button?
He was intelligent and pragmatic, but also vain enough to make him interesting.
Most of all he correctly identified the Bajorans as ungrateful, subrational scum.
No matter how he improved their lives they would still hate him as much as their worst oppresser, just be freer to hurt him. Even if he somehow arranged a total withdrawal from Bajor, they'd still villify him, only now they'd come at the empire for reparations, as if giving up a monumental asset out of the literal goodness of their heart still wasn't enough.
Heels make faces, as the wrestling addage goes, and the eternal childish, hateful idiocy of Bajorans throws this this softhearted genius' tragedy into stark relief.
The only people who got character assassinated worse than Dukat were the entire Ferengi thanks to them turning into literal socialists at the end of the series because worm hole aliens told them to
That was disgusting, actually quoting Marx. Moreover, the complete destruction of existing Ferengi society by Quark's mother is a good teaching moment for those paying attention.
He just likes the ridges, ok?
Much of it comes down to the performance of the actor. There is the sense that, whilst never a 'good' person, the Cardassian occupation sort of broke his mental state where he is in conflict and cope's through double think.
I live in a post conflict society that went through decades of low level conflict and I know loads of old shitheads like this, people who have had to adjust to "normal" peaceful life but are so broken by the shit they saw and have done themselves. Obsessed by the most minute meaningless political things and morally indignant about the most cruel violence like the mass murder of civilians. Dukat is charismatic, he would be very popular with a lot of people here who thought the same way he did
>I live in a post conflict society
Where?
A good example of Alaimo elevating the material and the character is the exchange with Weyoun about resistance. Weyoun says that Earth's population must be exterminated, to which Dukat firmly says you can't do that; when asked why not Dukat does a drawn-out "because..." and then speaks of a true victory being about your enemy recognising you greatness. The intention by the writers is clearly just 'look at how megalomaniac Dukat is' however, the performance makes it seem that: at his deepest level he is morally appalled at the suggestion of exterminating Earth's population, he catches his response as overstepping his position and just saying no isn't going to make a difference, so he scrambles together a justification. Dukat buys into the lie as he tells it as that way he can self-excuse his complicity in the ugliness of it all by saying he prevented it from being worse.
Kino interpretation anon. Ive always seen it as dukat simply trying to get one over on weyoun, arguing for the sake of arguing as he holds onto the sense that cardassia has any power to dictate the dominion
Alaimo played Dukat like Othello, which is why people praise his performance. He's a Shakespearean actor meanwhile Terry Farrel and Nana Visitor were showing their breasts on TV and in magazines before they cot the call. The gulf in talent between the main cast (newbies, eye candy) and the supporting cast (seasoned veterans, theatre actors) was immense. Actually I'd say Rene was the only major billing actor who could actually act. DS9 was carried by the supporting cast.
>Terry Farrel and Nana Visitor were showing their breasts on TV and in magazines before they cot the call.
Proof
terry posed nude but im pretty sure nana never did
>'look at how megalomaniac Dukat is'
I can't read it that way at all. A person shouldn't be fighting if they don't believe they are right. Convincing your enemy to see things your way is a better and more total victory than subjugating or murdering them. It's literally the same philosophy the Federation has in trying to "enlighten" all the other cultures they ally with. Only far more insidiously and through condescension.
Deep Space Nine is kino and I'm tired of pretending it's not
OP posted the only Truck Stop Nine character worth a shit.
It helps that he's super charismatic and engaging as a character while most Bajorans are kind of homosexual so you can sympathise with him hating them.
>most Bajorans are kind of homosexual
This, I don't think there was a single likeable Bajoran.
Leeta
Female Bajorans are cool, male Bajorans aren't.
>muh occupation
>muh prophets
They should be thankful that Dukat reduce the labor camp quotas down to 50%. Even that was too generous.
Bajorans are more cringy than fricking Ferengis
At least the ferengis were entertaining.
This. Frick Bajorans and their dog-eat-dog backstabbing shitshow of a society that can't even function properly, ever. Waste of oxygen. They SUCK.
When they turned him into a goofy villain I realised much of the greatness of the show was entirely accidental
They just overreacted to people liking their villain, which was stupid. They should have just killed him off if they didn't want fans to keep rooting for him
just look at the main writer, he is redd*t, such a total homosexual. also, ds9 is a rip off of bab5 anyway.
I used to feel like this but on second watch, I realized the true Dukat just died with his daughter. After that, he's completely snapped.
The israelite show runners couldnt handle their literal muh hitler chracter had become a fan favourite so they had to ruin everything. season 7 was some of the worst television ever made and a complete bed shitting.
He’s completely unapologetic and unshakeable in his beliefs while having a smug demeanor. Plus he takes any chance to put the Bajorans in their place and he fricked Kiras mom.
He was a mid level manager of an occupation who genuinely saw himself as a hero and good guy. That dichotomy was very interesting.
I don't think many people like Dukat as a person but many, myself included, love him as a character.
I like him as a person too. He's pretty great, would have a beer with after work. I admire his self-confidence. Garak is the one that I like as a character but not as a person.
>say you im gay without saying
sure gramps
>say you im gay
Garak is the man Dukat wishes he was. Even as an exiled taylor he's more badass and important/dangerous to Cardassia than Dukat.
Garak is too self aware and cynical, something Dukat detests that for what it reveals about his own narcissism. Garak was the one character who could truly burrow under his skin and it had more to do than just killing his father
>What made him so based?
gay geezers that want his dick/cloaca
He was great until the point where they killed his daughter. Then he became a silly cartoon villain with the dumb showdown with Sisko, which probably would have been the dumbest finale in Star Trek history if we didn't have the Dominion War. People forget that the entire Dukat/Adami arc in the final season was hot garbage.
I thought season 7 was about the same as season 6... until the final arc kicked off after the holodeck breather. Ezri/Worf and Dukat/Adami was fricking painful, Sisko is doing literally nothing and Bashir is carrying the entire fricking show. I was so glad when Damar backstabbed the dominion and the focus shifted to Cardassia.
He's the sort of evil that is fully convinced in his own righteousness but nuanced enough to act in shades of gray which makes him a dangerous combo that's also charismatic to watch
I don't think I've ever seen a character like Dukat in media wherein he's so popular they actively sabotage him to try and make the audience hate him
>I don't think I've ever seen a character like Dukat in media wherein he's so popular they actively sabotage him to try and make the audience hate him
Homelander
Tony Soprano
It worked too, nobody likes Dukat by the end.
I still enjoy his sleaze in donning a disguise and trying to bed an old b***hy woman, but his motivation is silly and muddled. It could have been remedied easily, even with all the same elements, by having the pah-wraiths tell Dukat that they hate Bajorans and want to wipe them out when they visit him in a vision. Instead they just tell him to let them out and he does it because he's suddenly a vengeful power hungry butthole.
>make ferengi
>They are obviously space israelites and this somehow slipped past the producers
>make 'real' israelites with the bajorans, poor baby victims who din do nuffin
>make ontologically evil race of space nazis to oppress them for no reason
>accidentally make them all hyper-charismatic, complex 5D characters while the bajorans are just whining homosexuals
>try and sabotage them, run your whole show into the ground while you're at it
Spike from Buffy
Eren Jaeger
Every white male lead in the current day
the truth
Unrepentant War Criminal
yes, but he was still likable, whilst you wouldnt piss on net n yahoo if the c**t was on fire
Chud energy
Fascists, racists and hatefuls in general see themselves in Dukat. Bajorans represent whatever group(s) they hate. Much like Dukat they delude themselves into believing that they are selfless heroes fighting for some greater cause, that they did nothing wrong (their favorite catchphrase) and that the victims deserved it. It is the timeless archtypical doctrine of hate that Dukat so perfectly embodies.
It is so telling that a character like Dukat, who is without doubt a murderer, liar, rapist and power hungry egomaniac, could so perfectly capture the hearts of the heartless. He is them. They are him. Dukat is their ugly truth laid bare and nothing wounded them more than when Dukat was ripped from his cloak of gray morality and thrust into the light to show what he truly is: a fricking monster.
Marc Alaimos performance for one. But I found that because you see him go through a lot of shit, his highs and lows, and a few genuinly touching moments where his smug façade drops, you can understand what makes him tick and even empathize with him. And at times you realize that he's just some guy like you stuck on the other side of a conflict. But then whenever you start liking him, he does something to remind you he's a slimy selfiqh prick. His story in season 5 to the beginning of season six culminating in the death of his daughter is a masterful tragedy of a talented and capable leader getting undone by his own arrogance and hubris, and I have to say I never felt such compassion for a charecter I absolutely hated like with Gol Dukat.
And then they turned him into an insane genocidal maniac and all of that went out the window.
>Rick Berman moves over to Voyager full time after Piller/Taylor retire
>DS9 instantly goes to shit
>VOY enters its best seasons
A P O L O G I Z E
P
O
L
O
G
I
Z
E
What season of Voyager is that?
Garak is the most overrated character in Star Trek. You can't even really call him a character. He's just a walking talking gimmick.
I don't get it
He had that shit installed in case of a worker uprising.
He was nuanced.
>He was nuanced.
Is that sarcasm? He was completely over the top.
Not sarcasm. His *motivations* were nuanced.
complex, morally grey characters are always a hoot
*morally grey characters with good motivations and their own warped moral compass
Far too many "grey" characters just end up being boring because they basically have no morals besides mememe
I'd press it, that was fricking hillarious, but I would prefer more Dukat kino
.
Dukat? More like Dulusional.
You can press a button to stop the flanderization of Dukat. However doing so means that he will no longer call up Kira in the middle of the night to tell her that he fricked her mother and that she liked it. Do you press the button?
Yes. I always wanted him to get with Kira, and he'd probably have to never tell her for that to happen.
>Dukat
>ever getting with Kira
It's a shame Nana got raped otherwise it might've happened
Explain
He was intelligent and pragmatic, but also vain enough to make him interesting.
Most of all he correctly identified the Bajorans as ungrateful, subrational scum.
No matter how he improved their lives they would still hate him as much as their worst oppresser, just be freer to hurt him. Even if he somehow arranged a total withdrawal from Bajor, they'd still villify him, only now they'd come at the empire for reparations, as if giving up a monumental asset out of the literal goodness of their heart still wasn't enough.
Heels make faces, as the wrestling addage goes, and the eternal childish, hateful idiocy of Bajorans throws this this softhearted genius' tragedy into stark relief.
Because deep down you know you would have done the same things he did.
Who was goofier? Dukat or Gowron?
ur mom
gowron
it felt so cheap to have the enterprise literally deciding the fate of a strong federation ally MULTIPLE TIMES
Of course Dukat never got with Kira.
Damar, on the other hand...
Forhead labia
The only people who got character assassinated worse than Dukat were the entire Ferengi thanks to them turning into literal socialists at the end of the series because worm hole aliens told them to
They hated how Dukat was beloved, and so they gave his arc to fricking Damar and made him cartoonishly supernaturally evil.
Also all the recent Dukat love on Cinemaphile makes me worried were gonna lose Alimo soon ;_;
That was disgusting, actually quoting Marx. Moreover, the complete destruction of existing Ferengi society by Quark's mother is a good teaching moment for those paying attention.
>that one time he called Kira in the middle of the night just to tell her he banged her mom
always a good kek