Why would being racist send you to Hell?
People in the bible went to war all the time.
That means they killed each other for being different. And not like USA vs Japan or something, but like if 3 of the counties in your home state went to war because they were next to each other.
There weren't really GIANT empires in biblical times. At least not in the area.
hades, from greek mythology, which was later adopted by romans
whole story is inspired by orpheus and his trip to hades to save eurydice, which was later adopted by romans
>he just added some biblical stuff into it so people would accept it easier
as if people didn't know the references, one of the characters is literally a Roman poet, you're fricking moronic.
There are a couple different descriptions of hell-like places in the Bible, one of them is 'the outer darkness where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth' which I guess you could call nothingness, but there are others that are more familiar: unending fire, a worm that never dies, a place of eternal suffering that has been prepared for the devil and his followers, etc.
Okay, so THIS is a translation thing. Here's as-close to the original as I can hand you.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+20&version=GNV
20:10 >[t]And the devil that deceived them, was cast into a lake of fire and brimstone, where that beast and that false prophet are, and shall be tormented even day and night for evermore.
20:14 >[ab]And death, and hell were cast into the lake of fire: this is the second death.
I am not 100% certain (because I can't be without deep research into the subject) but the earliest and most... enthused (politically-neutral) translation doesn't mention humans going to hell itself at all. They're cut off from God in Sheol, iirc (that's going to require research again) but the verses about God putting things in the lake of fire all involve concepts, direct opponents of God, or the arch-enemy of the Spirit.
Wish I could give ya more anon, but search for yourself too, please.
Nice try. The lake of fire is what God powerbombs Death into.
It's never described as "nothingness," it's described (in various ways) as the eternal wrath of God brought to bear on sinners for eternity. That includes a lake of fire.
I don't think it was necessarily biblical hell that did it for this movie.
The actors certainly carried the film hard but it was the concept of some random space tech opening up a portal to that side. It wasn't even necessarily just that as a concept but the actors & the pacing.
It's the only Paul Anderson movie I've enjoyed though alongside deathrace but that's even more of a guilty pleasure.
>What makes Biblical Hell so scary and disturbing?
Existence with love. All other emotions are derived from God's supreme love.
Satan's punishment for his hubris is simply that God took away his love for Satan. That's it. That's what makes Hell so fricking terrible. I'm not a huge Clive Barker fan but that was actually one of the most interesting things about the Hell Priest's backstory is once Pinhead finally broke into Satan's room he discovered Satan had an heroed because he could no longer stand existence without God's love.
Agreed. All of these "flashier" versions of hell pale in comparison to the one that is simply existence without God's grace or love. Most people hate that version too because it means hell is just a place on Earth. Barker's vision is a great balance, the man can write.
Neither biblical nor Dantesque hell is really terrifying. Although it sounds pseud or edgy, it is a much better world than the world we live in. The universe of that movie, although it was fricking terrifying and much worse than our reality.
The between two fires hell seems pretty fricking terrible. It starts with him replaying the same scene where a monster introduces himself, tells him its his time, rings a bell then his stomach turns into a mouth and eats him alive. It replays so long until the man forgets his name. Then it constantly tricks him into thinking theres an escape until he loses all hope that theres an escape and it just continues on with worse shit until he barely remembers what being alive was like
Gotcha. I only have seen this once, when i was 13, and it unnerved me quite a bit. It’s the only movie i refuse to go back and watch because i know I’ll ruin the mystique.
because it’s a realm of pure nightmares. it’s unique in that medieval painters and writers didn’t just see it as a torture house, but a reality that is in its substance pure chaos, agony and fear. basically any horrible, unsettling and incomprehensible image of horror your mind can conjure up could be part of the maelstrom of surreal nonsense and suffering occurring in hell. the sky is the limit
a place where everyone gets tortured sounds pretty scary to me. a bit trite I suppose but if you show me a place where people are getting their skin peeled off and eyes ripped out and whatever nonsense I'm gonna say yep that place seems pretty scary
In Orthodox Christianity I believe the tradition is that hell is the rejection of God and his love, and the same light and love that shines on the righteous, burns and torments the wicked.
God does not interact with sin on any level. Pic is a logical chain with God as the source (Prime Mover) of all things. Since sin is corruption of spiritual flow, it is against God's interaction. And he does prevent the effects of sin, spare people, and spare good hearts from sin (The king who was unintentionally going to take Abraham's wife), He can nuke us to the ground and start over (and he has previously), but God interacting with sin doesn't happen. Ever. He's good and perfect good does not interact with evil.
The amount of goodness in a person is directly inverse to the amount of sin. A perfectly good entity must be without sin to be perfectly good. If He lied, he would be with sin and therefore no longer perfectly good.
Therefore: Sin is eternally denied by an omni-good entity.
Interestingly enough, Christian philosophy didn't view God as purely omnipotent until VERY recently. Even Lewis believed that God limited Himself. And that's sensible, because if you're assuming eternity in Heaven, you're booking in at the behest of a Being who will never abandon you.
Because you define evil too loosely. >Waaah I have cancer and I’m going to die a percentage sooner than everyone else who will also die
Grow up. Our mortality isn’t evil, moron.
it is the free will of the creatures he created that causes evil, to do the opposite of what god wants is evil, he allows us to do it for a time waiting for some to turn back. people choose to go to hell. simple as
Most of the serious Christian philosophers believe that God gives leniency in accordance with capability. I'm just off work, but you're looking for verses like "whatever is given is equal to what's expected" and God gives enough to accomplish/you're temped in accordance with your ability to resist sin.
I'll dig for the exact stuff for a bit but give me some time. I'm bushed.
Most of the serious Christian philosophers believe that God gives leniency in accordance with capability. I'm just off work, but you're looking for verses like "whatever is given is equal to what's expected" and God gives enough to accomplish/you're temped in accordance with your ability to resist sin.
I'll dig for the exact stuff for a bit but give me some time. I'm bushed.
basically this. there was a monk who was a massive alcoholic since he was a baby, and he was told to just drink a little bit less every so often. when he died he hadn't stopped drinking completely, but he did reduce it over time. don't know if he became a saint or what, but the point is that there is some leniency, but that doesn't mean the rules no longer apply, god has mercy on those who earnestly attempt to repent.
Most of the serious Christian philosophers believe that God gives leniency in accordance with capability. I'm just off work, but you're looking for verses like "whatever is given is equal to what's expected" and God gives enough to accomplish/you're temped in accordance with your ability to resist sin.
I'll dig for the exact stuff for a bit but give me some time. I'm bushed.
Here it is anon, from Jesus Himself. (Luke 12:48) > But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked."
Those who are incapable of perceiving morality are incapable of sinning. Remember what caused the fall of man was consuming the fruit from the tree of knowledge and evil. What separates mankind (ability to sin) at large from animals (incapable of sin) is morality.
how does epicurus define "evil?" if he defines it as the actions of man, then the other anons responses regarding free will are relevant here. if he defines it as suffering in general such as illness, pestilence, natural disasters and such, then suffering arises from the existence of infinite love and hope, neither of which can exist without their converse. any person who has experienced true suffering and despair knows that it's depths are only penetrated by the love permeating the universe carrying with it an unbound glory from the highest plane imaginable, and that is god's gift to us.
There was a specific type of hell I can't remember if it was from a religion or a piece of media but IIRC its sort of a limbo that's "escapable" but no one has ever escaped because there are monsters at the exits that hunt down and kill everyone who tries to escape. And the sinners cannot officially die so they revive over and over again and basically their punishment is the false hope of freedom only to be killed and end up back where they started. Really interesting but I don't remember where I read it from.
nta but it is free will, it's just that choosing anything other than god is rejecting all the good things that he provides. so you are by definition choosing the opposite of good, and you will suffer for it, not because god is punishing you, but because you literally chose it. like you can choose to be in a nice green meadow or jumping into a puddle of lava, no one made you jump in the lava, you did that.
it's about your disposition, not just your actions. imagine the afterlife like a party with all the people who love god having a good time with god, and a bunch of people absolutely seething in the corner because they hate fun, they ruin it for themselves.
Man's natural state is hell. We drag others down, bring war, oppression. The "best" among us (or "our leaders by vote") make billions by screwing the people who trust them. We die and go to the place we're SUPPOSED to go. God's gift is to pluck us from that path and give us eternal life in a paradise He is literally building for us. >Be Jesus >Become carpenter >Die for everyone >Spend next two millennia building Heaven.
What a cool dude.
When are we gonna get a movie depiction of the war in heaven? A war torn paradise with wheathered angels fighting and killing each other could be pretty kino, if done right.
The between two fires hell seems pretty fricking terrible. It starts with him replaying the same scene where a monster introduces himself, tells him its his time, rings a bell then his stomach turns into a mouth and eats him alive. It replays so long until the man forgets his name. Then it constantly tricks him into thinking theres an escape until he loses all hope that theres an escape and it just continues on with worse shit until he barely remembers what being alive was like
Theres kind of a war between angels and demons but it takes place on earth and follows human characters. Its kind of like The Road where its an adult and kid just journeying and seeing the evil and plague spread
>Why not simply destroy them entirely
That is the original meaning of heel before greek converts (and later norse) applied the fire and brimstone from erebus/Tartarus, followed by hel's realm in Norse myth
Fire and brimstone (or even just the "darkness" and "absence of God" part) demonstrates a real lack of creativity on the part of the writers of the Bible. I'm more scared of those bullshit theories about the electrical continuity of consciousness being true - imagine waking up hundreds of years after your death because someone accidentally recreated your engrams in their shitty video game, or your bioelectricity being trapped in mycelia network and acutely feeling the damage to every fruiting body, or having some small part of your self survive in your embalmed entombed body in your hermetically sealed coffin for the next thousand years. Imagine your soul wandering space, witnessing the agonizingly slow birth and death of stars before falling into a black hole.
but there must an instant that must feel incredible when your penis starts is going into the black hole. imagine a succ so good not even light can escape it.
Okay, so THIS is a translation thing. Here's as-close to the original as I can hand you.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+20&version=GNV
20:10 >[t]And the devil that deceived them, was cast into a lake of fire and brimstone, where that beast and that false prophet are, and shall be tormented even day and night for evermore.
20:14 >[ab]And death, and hell were cast into the lake of fire: this is the second death.
I am not 100% certain (because I can't be without deep research into the subject) but the earliest and most... enthused (politically-neutral) translation doesn't mention humans going to hell itself at all. They're cut off from God in Sheol, iirc (that's going to require research again) but the verses about God putting things in the lake of fire all involve concepts, direct opponents of God, or the arch-enemy of the Spirit.
Wish I could give ya more anon, but search for yourself too, please.
From God's perspective it doesn't matter what you do to each other. In the end the ones that make it to heaven can be given the best psychiatric care from God.
If god exists then it's a malevolent force. This all-good nonsense is such a massive cope I genuinely wonder how people convinced themselves this is true.
The same way that movies and tv shows and video games get criticized for plot holes - if the rules of your fictional system don't make sense, people will point it out and make fun of you.
All you've presented so far are strawmen and your own personal opinion.
8 months ago
Anonymous
One of us is proselytizing, the other is goofing. I'm just pointing out the obvious: there are no more St. Augustines in the world to defend contradictions in your scripture that are so bewildering they'd make a Marvelgay blush.
8 months ago
Anonymous
You haven't provided a contradiction, you're just saying it's nonsense. When confronted with extensive logical arguments presented by some of the greatest minds of the past two thousand years you dismiss it outright and move on. You have no desire for knowledge and learning and contribute nothing besides a steady stream of "no u" until the other people leave.
Well anon, you have your wish. I'm going. Everything necessary is in my posts above but I do say, you'll never read them. God help you.
This. Every other society throughout history, some of which were much more successful for a much longer period of time than current Western Christian civilization, was perfectly fine with their god(s) being petty buttholes. It's the nature of power, accept it. Especially when the Abrahamic god is so clearly a petty butthole and theologians simply pretend otherwise.
Interestingly enough, the original Chinese religion is basically a Christless proto-Cathlocisim. Here's an ancient Chinese carving of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Note the legged serpent on the base.
It's so funny how the Chinese really slimmed down society to its base components - take the God out of Catholicism and you basically just have Legalism.
It's so funny how the Chinese really slimmed down society to its base components - take the God out of Catholicism and you basically just have Legalism.
Wow, sorry- I totally whiffed on what you said. Gonna turn in. Have a great night anons!
>I genuinely wonder how people convinced themselves this is true.
Gee anon, it's almost like Christians wrote out multiple logic-based analyses on how it all works. Prime Mover's posted earlier in the thread btw.
Even if your eyes are closed, I'll bet other people are struggling and could use the boost.
This is not about god existing or not. It's about it being good or not. It's objectively not good. At least not good in what we humans understand as good.
Idk maybe something about God forgives everything, I don't even read the Bible yet.
You go to hell for having lustful thoughts about another woman that isn't your wife. That's actually in the Bible.
>You go to hell for having lustful thoughts about another woman that isn't your wife. That's actually in the Bible.
Yes. Have you considered that it may actually be immoral to promise yourself to someone, and then lust after another?
>You go to hell for having lustful thoughts about another woman that isn't your wife. That's actually in the Bible.
It's one of the best parts of the Bible.
If you would cheat on your girlfriend with a 10/10 video game waifu and get away with it, then you are a cheater, you just have not cheated yet. If you would steal billions of dollars and get away with it, then you are a thief, you just have not stolen yet. There are many people in the world who desire evil, but are simply too weak to pursue it. Those people are evil. Impotence is not innocence in the Lord's reckoning.
8 months ago
Anonymous
It's the most schizophrenic part and it has some grave implications. If you can sin in your mind then isn't killing in video games also a sin?
Why not, it follows the original idea. Enjoy eternal suffering for playing Call of Duty.
8 months ago
Anonymous
You misunderstand, and it sounds deliberate, so I'll write in greentext.
>Be me >Want to kill someone >Chicken out because I'm afraid of prison >Die >Judged by God >Murderer >Damnation
>you aren't good
I'm more good than your god. You cope so much you change definitions of what is good and what is not.
If your imaginary overlord told you that genocide and torturing babies is good you would argue that it's good indeed.
Because it's not a serious question. This world is essentially based on suffering. We as humans don't consider suffering (especially pointless suffering) good. You claim it's good because your meme deity created it that way and we can't judge it.
How can you call one thing "evil" and another "good?" Neither your judgement nor mine is suited to the task unless we are able to appeal to something beyond ourselves - something objective about the universe that makes one thing moral and another not. That's what God is necessarily, because if he created the universe then he must exist apart from it, eternally, uncreated, and with an unchanging nature.
I wish you a good night brother, I love you and hope that God softens your heart.
Why does every argument about God's omnipotence/omniscience/omnibenevolence always lead to redefining those terms? Just admit that he's not any of those things, and clearly you wouldn't want him to be. All three are not only incompatible but also internally inconsistent.
If God existed someone would have already killed him or some very close to it. Humans murdered his son, and we've have over 2000 years to plan and invent new technology since then. Big Daddy Prime Mover is toast.
>denies everyone paradise and forces everyone to suffer because two dumb morons wanted some fruit he planted in his garden >kills everyone with the great flood >expects everyone to be perfect human beings and worship him
I'm pretty sure hell isn't meant for humans, humans who won't go to heaven will have their souls exterminated
Also I don't get why people insist with this "God is evil in my idea of morality" so much, you're just a human while God literally invented the concept of morality.
If God truly loved us then why hasn't he shown himself to more than one person? Maybe evil is to strong of word, selfish would probably fit better. He creates us, told us to worship him or get punished, disappeared for 2000 years and just expects us to unconditionally love him? It already feels like he has abandoned us and moved on to a new shiny toy so if hell is not being in his presence then I guess I'm already in hell.
>shown himself to more than one person?
I never saw God but I can say I felt his presence, a lot of people would also say this, a lot of people say they've talked or even saw God, of course you don't believe them, why would you?
In the bible Moses is the only human God has ever shown himself to. What I'm trying to say with that is that God is kind of cruel in a way that he force us to have blind faith in him and live with doubt instead of just showing himself to us or proving to us that he is real. He is leading us on with promise of entering heaven but if you don't worship him you go to hell.
8 months ago
Anonymous
Jesus is God and a lot of people saw him, also I don't believe in hell for humans, pretty sure non believers will have their souls exterminated, which is still bad of course, but not that bad.
Also you won't go to hell just for sinning, God is merciful and he knows humans are prone to sinning.
The idea behind it was >Yeah, Nero's gonna feed to the lions soon, but when he dies, he'll be in an even worse place. Now we get the last laugh? Keep your faith, bro!
Keep in mind, Christianity was founded in martyrdom.
You either worship me even in your thoughts and never question my decisions or you will suffer for all eternity. Also, your reward will be a neverending existence in some brainwashed state without free will as you can't sin in heaven.
What a cool benevolent entity. Makes Lovecraftian monsters look merciful in comparison.
Funny thing is that when you mention to atheists how wrong they are and that even child rapists can go to heaven as long as they truly regret their actions the attitude changes and goes "IF GOD IS THAT MERCIFUL THEN HE'S BAD BECAUSE I SAY SO"
The Good Place had the best idea for what Heaven could be like I've ever seen. It would be unfathomably based if the afterlife was like it.
TLDW
>Good people go to traditional Heaven, can chill with their family members and friends that are up there, can learn new skills and watch kinos they missed on earth, can eat whatever they want whenever they want, mingle with ancient philosophers, etc >Bad people go to a specialized "neighborhood" where they are put in situations to prove their true worth and grow and change as a person until they prove they aren't buttholes anymore and worthy of Heaven >When you're ready to move on to the next step (oblivion, or some higher form of existence) you pass through a gate and move on. Could be millions of years, could be ready right away, its up to you
That was a fun show but I didn't really like the ending, felt like a nihilist idea of a good heaven to me, why can't God just delete the concept of "getting tired of existing" and everyone just lives happily forever?
I feel like this is the most realistic take on it, but with reincarnation. You just keep coming back as new things or people until your soul is cleansed or whatever.
This demiurge stuff creeps me out, I can never be an atheist, everytime I think "maybe nothing exists..." I look at nature and everything and it honestly feels like a slap to my face saying God exists, the idea that he's evil fricks me up, but I don't believe in it.
Anon, the true redpill about life is that we aren't here to be happy and we also are not here to suffer, our lives were never meant to be completely fair and good, stuff just happens, what we have is the promise of a perfect afterlife, we suffer and it sucks for us but that's life on earth.
I'm almost finished with heraiser, I started it because of this thread.
It's pretty great but I always see anon saying the other movies suck. How true is that? Do we ever get movies with much more cenobyte screentime?
I generally hate "scary movies" but if it's a slasher or thriller has an awesome enough premise I like them.
Only good movies in that series are 1, 2, and 5. Three turns Pinhead into a slasher villain, and 4 was so bad it made sure they made it to theaters again.
2 is weird, but it feels like a continuation.
3 is a slasher movie.
4 is in space.
5 is actually good, but it's a different movie with inserted cenobites. It's very Jacob's Ladder/Silent Hill 2 like.
All the rest are similar to 5 (scripts for different movies with inserted cenobites) but they are pretty bad. Some are so bad they're good, like that ridiculous one about Hellraiser video game with Henry Cavill and Lance Henriksen.
Thanks lads. I remember watching a movie when I was really young with my brother where they were in a glass house or something and pinhead shows up. Anyone know what that was?
2 is weird, but it feels like a continuation.
3 is a slasher movie.
4 is in space.
5 is actually good, but it's a different movie with inserted cenobites. It's very Jacob's Ladder/Silent Hill 2 like.
All the rest are similar to 5 (scripts for different movies with inserted cenobites) but they are pretty bad. Some are so bad they're good, like that ridiculous one about Hellraiser video game with Henry Cavill and Lance Henriksen.
i have hppd from doing hallucinogenic drugs and when i get really sick or sleep deprived i will uncontrollably hallucinate. once i was badly sick and i'd sleep for a couple hours but wake up. i couldn't stay asleep and my body was in too much discomfort to go back to sleep. so i'd lay there for hours sick and uncomfortable and start hallucinating. one of my hallucinations was this place or something very like it. i'm pretty sure it was hell. everything looks destroyed and alive like a car wreck that came to life. there are lots or writhing and wriggling things. when i say a lot i mean its infinite. it just stretches out like that forever. at the end of it i saw somebody that looked something like the bum behind the winkies in mulholland drive. we just stared at each other like a staring contest. i couldn't do or say anything back. after a while his eyes turned into snake eyes and he rolled his eyes at me in a kind of sarcastic way like he was offended by me being there or something like that. i still think about him sometimes.
because deep down we all know that we deserve to go there.
>we
>those digits
nice try satan
Christian self-loathing and its consequences have been a disaster.
Christianity was so self-loathing they steamrolled over the pagancucks and larpers lmao
christianity a thousand years ago is not even remotely the same as it is now
Very true.
You know the phrase all dogs go to heaven. Well where do you think Cinemaphile users go?
McDonald's for tendies?
McDonald's doesn't serve tendies. Just nuggies.
Why would Cinemaphile users go to hell? Is it the racism? Because not everyone here is racist or hateful
Why would being racist send you to Hell?
People in the bible went to war all the time.
That means they killed each other for being different. And not like USA vs Japan or something, but like if 3 of the counties in your home state went to war because they were next to each other.
There weren't really GIANT empires in biblical times. At least not in the area.
>Why would Cinemaphile users go to hell?
Refusal to by Cinemaphile pass.
Back to Cinemaphile. Remember you are here forever.
arf arf woof?
>Well where do you think Cinemaphile users go?
Wherever other nonwoke people go.
biblical hell seems lame. the bible describes it as nothingness. i think dante's hell is more disturbing
>the bible describes it as nothingness.
no
Where do you think Dante got inspiration from?
hades, from greek mythology, which was later adopted by romans
whole story is inspired by orpheus and his trip to hades to save eurydice, which was later adopted by romans
Except that trapped Satan and a thousand other things from the Bible.
name 27
yes, but his depiction of hell is taken from hades of greek mythology. he just added some biblical stuff into it so people would accept it easier
>he just added some biblical stuff into it so people would accept it easier
as if people didn't know the references, one of the characters is literally a Roman poet, you're fricking moronic.
There are a couple different descriptions of hell-like places in the Bible, one of them is 'the outer darkness where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth' which I guess you could call nothingness, but there are others that are more familiar: unending fire, a worm that never dies, a place of eternal suffering that has been prepared for the devil and his followers, etc.
>t. doesn't read the Bible
neither did you, it's described once as the lake of fire
dante's isekai fanfic is cringe and gay
Nice try. The lake of fire is what God powerbombs Death into.
It's never described as "nothingness," it's described (in various ways) as the eternal wrath of God brought to bear on sinners for eternity. That includes a lake of fire.
I don't think it was necessarily biblical hell that did it for this movie.
The actors certainly carried the film hard but it was the concept of some random space tech opening up a portal to that side. It wasn't even necessarily just that as a concept but the actors & the pacing.
It's the only Paul Anderson movie I've enjoyed though alongside deathrace but that's even more of a guilty pleasure.
This, same concept as Doom 3. That hell is a real place that you can accidentally or purposely noclip into
Yeah we basically Hellraiser. Where heaven is not an accessible dimension, The light of God.
You know why.
I enjoyed the first half of Event Horizon, but the second half just bored me to death.
>What makes Biblical Hell so scary and disturbing?
Existence with love. All other emotions are derived from God's supreme love.
Satan's punishment for his hubris is simply that God took away his love for Satan. That's it. That's what makes Hell so fricking terrible. I'm not a huge Clive Barker fan but that was actually one of the most interesting things about the Hell Priest's backstory is once Pinhead finally broke into Satan's room he discovered Satan had an heroed because he could no longer stand existence without God's love.
Agreed. All of these "flashier" versions of hell pale in comparison to the one that is simply existence without God's grace or love. Most people hate that version too because it means hell is just a place on Earth. Barker's vision is a great balance, the man can write.
Neither biblical nor Dantesque hell is really terrifying. Although it sounds pseud or edgy, it is a much better world than the world we live in. The universe of that movie, although it was fricking terrifying and much worse than our reality.
Jesus tell me you live in Alabama without telling me you live in Alabama.
The between two fires hell seems pretty fricking terrible. It starts with him replaying the same scene where a monster introduces himself, tells him its his time, rings a bell then his stomach turns into a mouth and eats him alive. It replays so long until the man forgets his name. Then it constantly tricks him into thinking theres an escape until he loses all hope that theres an escape and it just continues on with worse shit until he barely remembers what being alive was like
>i think dante's hell is more disturbing
Was it ever implied that there were otherworldly entities? Or was the real danger people going mad and attacking each other?
yes
Did we see one? I thought i remember some winged creature in the flashes but I’ve never seen it again.
i think it was mostly implied that there was something there, it's been years since i watched it, but i think the lost footage showed more.
Gotcha. I only have seen this once, when i was 13, and it unnerved me quite a bit. It’s the only movie i refuse to go back and watch because i know I’ll ruin the mystique.
saw that in the cinema and spilled my huge drink all over me when I started from some scary scene
because it’s a realm of pure nightmares. it’s unique in that medieval painters and writers didn’t just see it as a torture house, but a reality that is in its substance pure chaos, agony and fear. basically any horrible, unsettling and incomprehensible image of horror your mind can conjure up could be part of the maelstrom of surreal nonsense and suffering occurring in hell. the sky is the limit
it's not scary or disturbing. it's trash for teenagers
a place where everyone gets tortured sounds pretty scary to me. a bit trite I suppose but if you show me a place where people are getting their skin peeled off and eyes ripped out and whatever nonsense I'm gonna say yep that place seems pretty scary
Its an eternity of creative torture, however other religons have equally as terrifying bad places where sinners go.
>Biblical Hell
???
In Orthodox Christianity I believe the tradition is that hell is the rejection of God and his love, and the same light and love that shines on the righteous, burns and torments the wicked.
>what makes the idea of enduring the most horrible tortures imaginable for eternity so scary?
Wow, what a thought provoking question.
because you were warned.
It's about the fear that is generated by that which is outside our control. There is power in this...
>if he is able but not willing he is malevolent
doesn’t follow.
Explain how an omnipotent being choosing not to prevent evil isn't malevolent.
>God must be kind and never a meanie head
lordy
God does not interact with sin on any level. Pic is a logical chain with God as the source (Prime Mover) of all things. Since sin is corruption of spiritual flow, it is against God's interaction. And he does prevent the effects of sin, spare people, and spare good hearts from sin (The king who was unintentionally going to take Abraham's wife), He can nuke us to the ground and start over (and he has previously), but God interacting with sin doesn't happen. Ever. He's good and perfect good does not interact with evil.
>God does not interact with sin on any level
Why?
The amount of goodness in a person is directly inverse to the amount of sin. A perfectly good entity must be without sin to be perfectly good. If He lied, he would be with sin and therefore no longer perfectly good.
Therefore: Sin is eternally denied by an omni-good entity.
Interestingly enough, Christian philosophy didn't view God as purely omnipotent until VERY recently. Even Lewis believed that God limited Himself. And that's sensible, because if you're assuming eternity in Heaven, you're booking in at the behest of a Being who will never abandon you.
Because the evil you’re referring to deals with human choice, and GOD gave man the gift of choice. Without
Because you define evil too loosely.
>Waaah I have cancer and I’m going to die a percentage sooner than everyone else who will also die
Grow up. Our mortality isn’t evil, moron.
it is the free will of the creatures he created that causes evil, to do the opposite of what god wants is evil, he allows us to do it for a time waiting for some to turn back. people choose to go to hell. simple as
what happens to people that god gave schizophrenia and brain tumors and shit that makes them incapable of understanding morality or reality though
don't know
Most of the serious Christian philosophers believe that God gives leniency in accordance with capability. I'm just off work, but you're looking for verses like "whatever is given is equal to what's expected" and God gives enough to accomplish/you're temped in accordance with your ability to resist sin.
I'll dig for the exact stuff for a bit but give me some time. I'm bushed.
basically this. there was a monk who was a massive alcoholic since he was a baby, and he was told to just drink a little bit less every so often. when he died he hadn't stopped drinking completely, but he did reduce it over time. don't know if he became a saint or what, but the point is that there is some leniency, but that doesn't mean the rules no longer apply, god has mercy on those who earnestly attempt to repent.
Here it is anon, from Jesus Himself. (Luke 12:48)
> But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked."
Those who are incapable of perceiving morality are incapable of sinning. Remember what caused the fall of man was consuming the fruit from the tree of knowledge and evil. What separates mankind (ability to sin) at large from animals (incapable of sin) is morality.
homie, it all boils down to the concept that he gave us freedom of will
if he were to intervene again, it would be against his word
It falls apart at, "Then whence cometh evil?"
Fricker doesn't actually understand omnipotence, will, or nature.
how does epicurus define "evil?" if he defines it as the actions of man, then the other anons responses regarding free will are relevant here. if he defines it as suffering in general such as illness, pestilence, natural disasters and such, then suffering arises from the existence of infinite love and hope, neither of which can exist without their converse. any person who has experienced true suffering and despair knows that it's depths are only penetrated by the love permeating the universe carrying with it an unbound glory from the highest plane imaginable, and that is god's gift to us.
There was a specific type of hell I can't remember if it was from a religion or a piece of media but IIRC its sort of a limbo that's "escapable" but no one has ever escaped because there are monsters at the exits that hunt down and kill everyone who tries to escape. And the sinners cannot officially die so they revive over and over again and basically their punishment is the false hope of freedom only to be killed and end up back where they started. Really interesting but I don't remember where I read it from.
Jap Hell seems scary.
>DUDE DUDE DUDE
>IT'S A WARHAMMER 40K PREQUEL
It looked more like Buddhist hell to me
how do you justify infinite punishment for finite crimes?
spurning the gift of will and life is immeasurable
god gave you free will, use it how he wants
If I have to use my free will in a way that someone else wants then it's not really free will at all, is it?
nta but it is free will, it's just that choosing anything other than god is rejecting all the good things that he provides. so you are by definition choosing the opposite of good, and you will suffer for it, not because god is punishing you, but because you literally chose it. like you can choose to be in a nice green meadow or jumping into a puddle of lava, no one made you jump in the lava, you did that.
it's about your disposition, not just your actions. imagine the afterlife like a party with all the people who love god having a good time with god, and a bunch of people absolutely seething in the corner because they hate fun, they ruin it for themselves.
>How do you justify God's moral judgements
Like so.
Man's natural state is hell. We drag others down, bring war, oppression. The "best" among us (or "our leaders by vote") make billions by screwing the people who trust them. We die and go to the place we're SUPPOSED to go. God's gift is to pluck us from that path and give us eternal life in a paradise He is literally building for us.
>Be Jesus
>Become carpenter
>Die for everyone
>Spend next two millennia building Heaven.
What a cool dude.
it's the sum total of human fear
When are we gonna get a movie depiction of the war in heaven? A war torn paradise with wheathered angels fighting and killing each other could be pretty kino, if done right.
As i said in
Theres kind of a war between angels and demons but it takes place on earth and follows human characters. Its kind of like The Road where its an adult and kid just journeying and seeing the evil and plague spread
https://imsdb.com/scripts/Event-Horizon.html
how about you post the best bits
HE VISIONS CONTINUE:
INT. EVENT HORIZON - MEDICAL/SCIENCE (VISIONS FROM HELL)
DJ's dissected body, except that here, DJ looks up, and
smiles...
EXT. SPACE - MODEL (VISIONS FROM HELL)
AN ALIEN SUN, red and bloated and dying.
EXT. ALIEN TERRAIN - MODEL (VISIONS FROM HELL)
AN ALIEN TERRAIN; a sluggish, oily, black sea. A hand reaches
from the oil...
INT. STUDIO APARTMENT (VISIONS FROM HELL)
CLAIRE floating dead in a bathtub filled with the thick black
fluid...
INT. EVENT HORIZON - SECOND CONTAINMENT (VISIONS FROM HELL)
Justin, Starck and Cooper, crucified upside-down upon the
Third Seal...
spooky
A black sea makes me think of the aliens from another dimension in Locke and Key. That itself is based off I believe HP Lovecraft.
>being that created all of reality
>random Cinemaphilener doesn't like one part of that reality so he denies the creator of it
yikes
What's the point of hell anyway? Why not simply destroy them entirely or just not have it be eternal torment?
>Why not simply destroy them entirely
That is the original meaning of heel before greek converts (and later norse) applied the fire and brimstone from erebus/Tartarus, followed by hel's realm in Norse myth
The theory is that they are built with a little light of God (the soul) which can't be destroyed.
I guess so that believers are afraid and behave well. To many like the idea of nonexistence after death
Fire and brimstone (or even just the "darkness" and "absence of God" part) demonstrates a real lack of creativity on the part of the writers of the Bible. I'm more scared of those bullshit theories about the electrical continuity of consciousness being true - imagine waking up hundreds of years after your death because someone accidentally recreated your engrams in their shitty video game, or your bioelectricity being trapped in mycelia network and acutely feeling the damage to every fruiting body, or having some small part of your self survive in your embalmed entombed body in your hermetically sealed coffin for the next thousand years. Imagine your soul wandering space, witnessing the agonizingly slow birth and death of stars before falling into a black hole.
but there must an instant that must feel incredible when your penis starts is going into the black hole. imagine a succ so good not even light can escape it.
Okay, so THIS is a translation thing. Here's as-close to the original as I can hand you.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+20&version=GNV
20:10
>[t]And the devil that deceived them, was cast into a lake of fire and brimstone, where that beast and that false prophet are, and shall be tormented even day and night for evermore.
20:14
>[ab]And death, and hell were cast into the lake of fire: this is the second death.
I am not 100% certain (because I can't be without deep research into the subject) but the earliest and most... enthused (politically-neutral) translation doesn't mention humans going to hell itself at all. They're cut off from God in Sheol, iirc (that's going to require research again) but the verses about God putting things in the lake of fire all involve concepts, direct opponents of God, or the arch-enemy of the Spirit.
Wish I could give ya more anon, but search for yourself too, please.
Also, if the condemnation is eternal, it would not be very merciful on the part of the All-good God.
It would not be very just for an all-good God to let evil go unpunished, would it?
>Why doesn't God do anything?
>HOLY SHIT SHE-BEARS WTF
Idk maybe something about God forgives everything, I don't even read the Bible yet.
You should
I'm so upset we never got to the blood orgy scene at the end of the movie. Damn the MPAA
From God's perspective it doesn't matter what you do to each other. In the end the ones that make it to heaven can be given the best psychiatric care from God.
One day AI will make a vr game out of it.
Yup, better stop pirating movies. Stealing from the Chosen people is worse than murder.
If god exists then it's a malevolent force. This all-good nonsense is such a massive cope I genuinely wonder how people convinced themselves this is true.
>God is evil
>The constitution is against the law
>George Lucas doesn't understand Star Wars
He isn't all good even in israeli own books. He's okay with genocide, he kills off a lot of people only because they are the enemies of israelites.
So? And?
>George Lucas doesn't understand Star Wars
you picked a very bad example for this analogy friend. even the constitution one is pushing it but you knew that already
I don't. How is the arbiter of morality immoral?
The same way that movies and tv shows and video games get criticized for plot holes - if the rules of your fictional system don't make sense, people will point it out and make fun of you.
All you've presented so far are strawmen and your own personal opinion.
One of us is proselytizing, the other is goofing. I'm just pointing out the obvious: there are no more St. Augustines in the world to defend contradictions in your scripture that are so bewildering they'd make a Marvelgay blush.
You haven't provided a contradiction, you're just saying it's nonsense. When confronted with extensive logical arguments presented by some of the greatest minds of the past two thousand years you dismiss it outright and move on. You have no desire for knowledge and learning and contribute nothing besides a steady stream of "no u" until the other people leave.
Well anon, you have your wish. I'm going. Everything necessary is in my posts above but I do say, you'll never read them. God help you.
>knowledge and learning
It's just sophistry.
What plot holes are you referring to?
This. Every other society throughout history, some of which were much more successful for a much longer period of time than current Western Christian civilization, was perfectly fine with their god(s) being petty buttholes. It's the nature of power, accept it. Especially when the Abrahamic god is so clearly a petty butthole and theologians simply pretend otherwise.
Interestingly enough, the original Chinese religion is basically a Christless proto-Cathlocisim. Here's an ancient Chinese carving of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Note the legged serpent on the base.
It's so funny how the Chinese really slimmed down society to its base components - take the God out of Catholicism and you basically just have Legalism.
This predates Catholicism by millennia- it's really a fascinating dive.
Wow, sorry- I totally whiffed on what you said. Gonna turn in. Have a great night anons!
>I genuinely wonder how people convinced themselves this is true.
Gee anon, it's almost like Christians wrote out multiple logic-based analyses on how it all works. Prime Mover's posted earlier in the thread btw.
Even if your eyes are closed, I'll bet other people are struggling and could use the boost.
>how it all works
It literally doesn't work.
>It's a cope
>Because I say so.
Your choice. I'm not here for you.
This is not about god existing or not. It's about it being good or not. It's objectively not good. At least not good in what we humans understand as good.
You go to hell for having lustful thoughts about another woman that isn't your wife. That's actually in the Bible.
>From my point of view the Jedi are evil!
>You go to hell for having lustful thoughts about another woman that isn't your wife. That's actually in the Bible.
Yes. Have you considered that it may actually be immoral to promise yourself to someone, and then lust after another?
>You go to hell for having lustful thoughts about another woman that isn't your wife. That's actually in the Bible.
It's one of the best parts of the Bible.
If you would cheat on your girlfriend with a 10/10 video game waifu and get away with it, then you are a cheater, you just have not cheated yet. If you would steal billions of dollars and get away with it, then you are a thief, you just have not stolen yet. There are many people in the world who desire evil, but are simply too weak to pursue it. Those people are evil. Impotence is not innocence in the Lord's reckoning.
It's the most schizophrenic part and it has some grave implications. If you can sin in your mind then isn't killing in video games also a sin?
Why not, it follows the original idea. Enjoy eternal suffering for playing Call of Duty.
You misunderstand, and it sounds deliberate, so I'll write in greentext.
>Be me
>Want to kill someone
>Chicken out because I'm afraid of prison
>Die
>Judged by God
>Murderer
>Damnation
If God exists how would you be equipped to judge him? You aren't good.
>you aren't good
I'm more good than your god. You cope so much you change definitions of what is good and what is not.
If your imaginary overlord told you that genocide and torturing babies is good you would argue that it's good indeed.
You did not (cannot) answer my question.
Because it's not a serious question. This world is essentially based on suffering. We as humans don't consider suffering (especially pointless suffering) good. You claim it's good because your meme deity created it that way and we can't judge it.
How can you call one thing "evil" and another "good?" Neither your judgement nor mine is suited to the task unless we are able to appeal to something beyond ourselves - something objective about the universe that makes one thing moral and another not. That's what God is necessarily, because if he created the universe then he must exist apart from it, eternally, uncreated, and with an unchanging nature.
I wish you a good night brother, I love you and hope that God softens your heart.
Why does every argument about God's omnipotence/omniscience/omnibenevolence always lead to redefining those terms? Just admit that he's not any of those things, and clearly you wouldn't want him to be. All three are not only incompatible but also internally inconsistent.
If God existed someone would have already killed him or some very close to it. Humans murdered his son, and we've have over 2000 years to plan and invent new technology since then. Big Daddy Prime Mover is toast.
Care Bears beat us to it.
Rec movies about hell, demons, and spooky supernatural places.
>denies everyone paradise and forces everyone to suffer because two dumb morons wanted some fruit he planted in his garden
>kills everyone with the great flood
>expects everyone to be perfect human beings and worship him
God seems like an butthole tbqhwy
I'm pretty sure hell isn't meant for humans, humans who won't go to heaven will have their souls exterminated
Also I don't get why people insist with this "God is evil in my idea of morality" so much, you're just a human while God literally invented the concept of morality.
Kind of evil to force suffering upon others for your own entertainment.
He didn't force anything + your concept of morality and you're a flawed human, how can you tell Satan isn't tricking you right now
He hardened Pharoah's heart and killed all those kids as punishment, despite forcing Pharoah to say no.
If God truly loved us then why hasn't he shown himself to more than one person? Maybe evil is to strong of word, selfish would probably fit better. He creates us, told us to worship him or get punished, disappeared for 2000 years and just expects us to unconditionally love him? It already feels like he has abandoned us and moved on to a new shiny toy so if hell is not being in his presence then I guess I'm already in hell.
>shown himself to more than one person?
I never saw God but I can say I felt his presence, a lot of people would also say this, a lot of people say they've talked or even saw God, of course you don't believe them, why would you?
In the bible Moses is the only human God has ever shown himself to. What I'm trying to say with that is that God is kind of cruel in a way that he force us to have blind faith in him and live with doubt instead of just showing himself to us or proving to us that he is real. He is leading us on with promise of entering heaven but if you don't worship him you go to hell.
Jesus is God and a lot of people saw him, also I don't believe in hell for humans, pretty sure non believers will have their souls exterminated, which is still bad of course, but not that bad.
Also you won't go to hell just for sinning, God is merciful and he knows humans are prone to sinning.
Slavery and genocide are evil, yet Yahweh encourages them.
This isn't some "mysterious ways" bullshit, it's just bullshit
The idea behind it was
>Yeah, Nero's gonna feed to the lions soon, but when he dies, he'll be in an even worse place. Now we get the last laugh? Keep your faith, bro!
Keep in mind, Christianity was founded in martyrdom.
You either worship me even in your thoughts and never question my decisions or you will suffer for all eternity. Also, your reward will be a neverending existence in some brainwashed state without free will as you can't sin in heaven.
What a cool benevolent entity. Makes Lovecraftian monsters look merciful in comparison.
Funny thing is that when you mention to atheists how wrong they are and that even child rapists can go to heaven as long as they truly regret their actions the attitude changes and goes "IF GOD IS THAT MERCIFUL THEN HE'S BAD BECAUSE I SAY SO"
A servant of Satan cast out and defeated.
The Good Place had the best idea for what Heaven could be like I've ever seen. It would be unfathomably based if the afterlife was like it.
TLDW
>Good people go to traditional Heaven, can chill with their family members and friends that are up there, can learn new skills and watch kinos they missed on earth, can eat whatever they want whenever they want, mingle with ancient philosophers, etc
>Bad people go to a specialized "neighborhood" where they are put in situations to prove their true worth and grow and change as a person until they prove they aren't buttholes anymore and worthy of Heaven
>When you're ready to move on to the next step (oblivion, or some higher form of existence) you pass through a gate and move on. Could be millions of years, could be ready right away, its up to you
That was a fun show but I didn't really like the ending, felt like a nihilist idea of a good heaven to me, why can't God just delete the concept of "getting tired of existing" and everyone just lives happily forever?
I feel like this is the most realistic take on it, but with reincarnation. You just keep coming back as new things or people until your soul is cleansed or whatever.
I hate the Demiurge
This demiurge stuff creeps me out, I can never be an atheist, everytime I think "maybe nothing exists..." I look at nature and everything and it honestly feels like a slap to my face saying God exists, the idea that he's evil fricks me up, but I don't believe in it.
What's scary about it?
I'm not scared of nothingness after death, I'm scared of suffering after death.
Yup, it's a scary thought. Nothing in this world makes me think that if there is god he's good or forgiving. I just hope there's no afterlife.
Anon, the true redpill about life is that we aren't here to be happy and we also are not here to suffer, our lives were never meant to be completely fair and good, stuff just happens, what we have is the promise of a perfect afterlife, we suffer and it sucks for us but that's life on earth.
Demiurge belief system doesn't have a hell, and hell was only made up in the wake of Nero persecuting Christians for their attempted coup.
It's not Biblical hell, this is Dante's hell. There's not a lot of description of hell in the bible.
>What happened to your eyes?
I think it has something to do with the being tortured for eternity part
I'm almost finished with heraiser, I started it because of this thread.
It's pretty great but I always see anon saying the other movies suck. How true is that? Do we ever get movies with much more cenobyte screentime?
I generally hate "scary movies" but if it's a slasher or thriller has an awesome enough premise I like them.
Only good movies in that series are 1, 2, and 5. Three turns Pinhead into a slasher villain, and 4 was so bad it made sure they made it to theaters again.
Thanks lads. I remember watching a movie when I was really young with my brother where they were in a glass house or something and pinhead shows up. Anyone know what that was?
I don't remember anything like that. Probably not in the first two as I remember them quite well.
Youre thinking of 13 ghosts I think
2 is weird, but it feels like a continuation.
3 is a slasher movie.
4 is in space.
5 is actually good, but it's a different movie with inserted cenobites. It's very Jacob's Ladder/Silent Hill 2 like.
All the rest are similar to 5 (scripts for different movies with inserted cenobites) but they are pretty bad. Some are so bad they're good, like that ridiculous one about Hellraiser video game with Henry Cavill and Lance Henriksen.
Because you’re familiar with the concept unlike say Buddhist Hell
i have hppd from doing hallucinogenic drugs and when i get really sick or sleep deprived i will uncontrollably hallucinate. once i was badly sick and i'd sleep for a couple hours but wake up. i couldn't stay asleep and my body was in too much discomfort to go back to sleep. so i'd lay there for hours sick and uncomfortable and start hallucinating. one of my hallucinations was this place or something very like it. i'm pretty sure it was hell. everything looks destroyed and alive like a car wreck that came to life. there are lots or writhing and wriggling things. when i say a lot i mean its infinite. it just stretches out like that forever. at the end of it i saw somebody that looked something like the bum behind the winkies in mulholland drive. we just stared at each other like a staring contest. i couldn't do or say anything back. after a while his eyes turned into snake eyes and he rolled his eyes at me in a kind of sarcastic way like he was offended by me being there or something like that. i still think about him sometimes.
because it's real.