Plans within plans within plans within plans got real old, real fast. They needed a good, solid loss that would put them on the back foot to prevent everything about them feeling like as asspull.
The problem is that despite always losing being part of their plan they never really showed how. They'd get their ass kicked and then just be LOL NO. Compared to Xanatos though he would almost always directly show how his loses would be turned around.
Great idea, but the writers overcomplicated their motives. Simple villain shadow government with the planet's smartest minds manipulating the scenes from the heroes. How do they muck it up? Convoluted plans, setups, and betrayals that seem to contradict their main goals.
The show in general didn't know when to stop. Doesn't help the light isn't clearly defined outisde of Vandal Savage intentions and that the timeskips change the member so is less clear what their plans are.
Also why everyone else is on board. The amount of villains seemingly involved in the conspiracy is insane and I doubt they are all on board with Savage's ideas. And considering it seems more keep leaving I wonder how many are even on their side by season 4.
Yeah, it made sense when it was more of a Illuminati situation where only selected few could be part of the light, now it seem everyone knows who they are and just don't stop them.
Yeah, it made sense when it was more of a Illuminati situation where only selected few could be part of the light, now it seem everyone knows who they are and just don't stop them.
It'd be easy enough to explain that too. Most villains think the Light is a couple of big shot villains having an Illuminati larp and don't actually give a shit as long as the paychecks clear. I'd also dovetail nicely into problems for the Light, like managing underlings with no real loyalty and their own ambitions, or compartmentalization to the point of the organization tripping over itself.
Personally I would have liked some outside issues that they couldn't just keikaku away, like heavy hitter villains not playing along or trying to take over, or capes that don't operate under regular assumptions. Like what would happen if the Authority showed up and literally dragged their plans into an alley and beat it to death?
>Personally I would have liked some outside issues that they couldn't just keikaku away, like heavy hitter villains not playing along or trying to take over, or capes that don't operate under regular assumptions.
They had those issues when Black Beetle went rogue and almost wiped out the planet or when Granny Goodness got ahold of and activated the Anti-Life Equation. Or when Child was wreaking havoc on Earth and even Klarion was powerless to stop her. Their only resort was to rely on superheroes. It's why they don't want to put a permanent end to the heroes and why the Nuclear Option even exists.
Superboy was also stated to be something needed if Superman died. I don't think Savage at least is against the heroes in theory, he just doesn't like that they'll coddle humanity.
Joker being involved was really out there, it felt like they wanted to use any DC villain possible for this show regardless of their background and self-motives. Hell in JLU the Legion of Doom barely held together and Lex ended up killing half of them.
Why did they call themselves the Light when they didn't have anything to help Earth at all and just wanted to rule people? The Light sounds like a charity religious organization, I know it's a play on Illuminati but it sounds confusing tonally for a bunch of warlords fascists and mad scientists to call themselves
Illuminati lore wise means enlightened folks, not trying advocate for the concept but their morally ambivalent and mysterious. The light is so fricking massive with any possible villain it feels like the league was moronic in never noticing them sooner, but oh their sidekicks did
Is it a hot take to say it'd be better if they weren't just existing villains working together in a conspiracy, and instead was something more original?
Luthor, Queen Bee, Brain, and Ra's work for that. I think Vandal is kind of the odd one out considering that as a true immortal he doesn't really need to have a bunch of convoluted, simultaneous plans going off all the time.
No that's good take, I'd include Vandel tho but the others really have no business being apart of something so careful
Luthor, Queen Bee, Brain, and Ra's work for that. I think Vandal is kind of the odd one out considering that as a true immortal he doesn't really need to have a bunch of convoluted, simultaneous plans going off all the time.
I think the original line-up of villains is great and works well, as it sets up The Light as a group of people who use their connections, resources and allies to work towards a unified goal. So you can have Luthor puppeteering supervillains and bankrolling Cadmus, Ra's and Queen Bee managing operations and black ops abroad, and Savage overseeing the whole arrangement with his thousands of years of experience. The problem comes in that, as everyone else in this thread has pointed out, The Light's sheer scope never leads to any kind of breakdown due to the sheer convolutedness of their operations, as well as the sheer absurd nature of all the backup plans they have in place. Every fricking villain in the DC Universe is apparently in on The Light's scheme and working with them, with no qualms whatsoever. There would have been plenty of opportunities for drama and interesting plotlines wherein the main Light members have to deal with failing to reign in their underlings, who are NOT privy to their true machinations and potentially sabotage their plans, or Light members working against one another to pursue their own interests. Some of the best Young Justice episodes are the ones where a new player outside of The Light's ring of influence shows up and sends them all into a complete desperate panic as they threaten to completely undo all their work in a single motion, like Mongul and Starro did. The penultimate episode of Season 2 is fun because it realistically shows the cracks that would form in such a supervillain organisation finally break the foundation they've built and plunge everything into chaos.
They seem to know this too since they had an episode about Ocean Master going rogue and needing to be put down, so there idea is there but not really used.
They seem to know this too since they had an episode about Ocean Master going rogue and needing to be put down, so there idea is there but not really used.
What's really weird is that they already had a perfect explanation as to why all the villains would work for them: mind control tech.
It's well known and people have already said it: give the light a legitimate loss, where they can't go "just as planned" or "no negative long term effects". I want to see them get uncomfortable, panicked, to see them struggle, otherwise they're boring.
The hero villain dance should be reactionary on both sides. The villains plans for X, the hero does Y. These makes the heroes accelerate or escalate their plans and objectives. If Super Hero Boy defeats the badguy, make the badguy see Super Hero Boy as a worthier threat now and plan a more directed attack on him that puts the character in danger.
You know I have to think back, were the light even the villains of season 3 and 4? 3 I remember being more Granny being the villain, and I don't remember enough of 4 to remember what was going on there.
Seasons 3 and 4 seem to lean more on the partnership/rivalry between the Light and Apokolips. Even if the main villains of season 4 were the House of Zod, they were facilitated by Lor-Zod and Ma'alefa'ak working for Darkseid.
Plans within plans within plans within plans got real old, real fast. They needed a good, solid loss that would put them on the back foot to prevent everything about them feeling like as asspull.
This. Plans are good, but season 2 should have been the big payoff, not "BUT WAIT, THERE'S MORE".
The problem is that despite always losing being part of their plan they never really showed how. They'd get their ass kicked and then just be LOL NO. Compared to Xanatos though he would almost always directly show how his loses would be turned around.
Basically, they're a shittier Xanatos?
>ah everything went completely wrong
>but we prepared for this ehehehe so we win even though we lost
they were dumb.
Great idea, but the writers overcomplicated their motives. Simple villain shadow government with the planet's smartest minds manipulating the scenes from the heroes. How do they muck it up? Convoluted plans, setups, and betrayals that seem to contradict their main goals.
The show in general didn't know when to stop. Doesn't help the light isn't clearly defined outisde of Vandal Savage intentions and that the timeskips change the member so is less clear what their plans are.
Also why everyone else is on board. The amount of villains seemingly involved in the conspiracy is insane and I doubt they are all on board with Savage's ideas. And considering it seems more keep leaving I wonder how many are even on their side by season 4.
Yeah, it made sense when it was more of a Illuminati situation where only selected few could be part of the light, now it seem everyone knows who they are and just don't stop them.
It'd be easy enough to explain that too. Most villains think the Light is a couple of big shot villains having an Illuminati larp and don't actually give a shit as long as the paychecks clear. I'd also dovetail nicely into problems for the Light, like managing underlings with no real loyalty and their own ambitions, or compartmentalization to the point of the organization tripping over itself.
Personally I would have liked some outside issues that they couldn't just keikaku away, like heavy hitter villains not playing along or trying to take over, or capes that don't operate under regular assumptions. Like what would happen if the Authority showed up and literally dragged their plans into an alley and beat it to death?
>Personally I would have liked some outside issues that they couldn't just keikaku away, like heavy hitter villains not playing along or trying to take over, or capes that don't operate under regular assumptions.
They had those issues when Black Beetle went rogue and almost wiped out the planet or when Granny Goodness got ahold of and activated the Anti-Life Equation. Or when Child was wreaking havoc on Earth and even Klarion was powerless to stop her. Their only resort was to rely on superheroes. It's why they don't want to put a permanent end to the heroes and why the Nuclear Option even exists.
Superboy was also stated to be something needed if Superman died. I don't think Savage at least is against the heroes in theory, he just doesn't like that they'll coddle humanity.
Joker being involved was really out there, it felt like they wanted to use any DC villain possible for this show regardless of their background and self-motives. Hell in JLU the Legion of Doom barely held together and Lex ended up killing half of them.
Wasn't Joker a completely unknowing pawn to The Light?
Sometimes villains should just lose LOSE, give your story functional closure, and make your hero's actions have meaning.
Too much keikaku that went nowhere
Why did they call themselves the Light when they didn't have anything to help Earth at all and just wanted to rule people? The Light sounds like a charity religious organization, I know it's a play on Illuminati but it sounds confusing tonally for a bunch of warlords fascists and mad scientists to call themselves
they where the iluminaty.
Illuminati lore wise means enlightened folks, not trying advocate for the concept but their morally ambivalent and mysterious. The light is so fricking massive with any possible villain it feels like the league was moronic in never noticing them sooner, but oh their sidekicks did
Is it a hot take to say it'd be better if they weren't just existing villains working together in a conspiracy, and instead was something more original?
No that's good take, I'd include Vandel tho but the others really have no business being apart of something so careful
Luthor, Queen Bee, Brain, and Ra's work for that. I think Vandal is kind of the odd one out considering that as a true immortal he doesn't really need to have a bunch of convoluted, simultaneous plans going off all the time.
I find it funny Ra's is one who ended up leaving. I like to think the others got sick with his environmental talk.
I think the original line-up of villains is great and works well, as it sets up The Light as a group of people who use their connections, resources and allies to work towards a unified goal. So you can have Luthor puppeteering supervillains and bankrolling Cadmus, Ra's and Queen Bee managing operations and black ops abroad, and Savage overseeing the whole arrangement with his thousands of years of experience. The problem comes in that, as everyone else in this thread has pointed out, The Light's sheer scope never leads to any kind of breakdown due to the sheer convolutedness of their operations, as well as the sheer absurd nature of all the backup plans they have in place. Every fricking villain in the DC Universe is apparently in on The Light's scheme and working with them, with no qualms whatsoever. There would have been plenty of opportunities for drama and interesting plotlines wherein the main Light members have to deal with failing to reign in their underlings, who are NOT privy to their true machinations and potentially sabotage their plans, or Light members working against one another to pursue their own interests. Some of the best Young Justice episodes are the ones where a new player outside of The Light's ring of influence shows up and sends them all into a complete desperate panic as they threaten to completely undo all their work in a single motion, like Mongul and Starro did. The penultimate episode of Season 2 is fun because it realistically shows the cracks that would form in such a supervillain organisation finally break the foundation they've built and plunge everything into chaos.
They seem to know this too since they had an episode about Ocean Master going rogue and needing to be put down, so there idea is there but not really used.
What's really weird is that they already had a perfect explanation as to why all the villains would work for them: mind control tech.
Nothing, everything was according to plan.
Is that Klarion?
Who the frick invited him?
Savage needed a magic rep and he was the best option.
Klarion the Witch Boy is Vandal Savage's fricktoy of 12,000 years.
Klarion invited himself to Savage's life because he found him amusing. Savage uses him as much as he can to further his goals.
It's well known and people have already said it: give the light a legitimate loss, where they can't go "just as planned" or "no negative long term effects". I want to see them get uncomfortable, panicked, to see them struggle, otherwise they're boring.
The hero villain dance should be reactionary on both sides. The villains plans for X, the hero does Y. These makes the heroes accelerate or escalate their plans and objectives. If Super Hero Boy defeats the badguy, make the badguy see Super Hero Boy as a worthier threat now and plan a more directed attack on him that puts the character in danger.
Worked for Gargoyles and Spectacular Spider-Man. You know, for their two seasons.
Gargoyles and SSM allowed for their heroes to get solid wins over their opponents.
They also showed how the villains turned it around instead of going NUH UH!
You know I have to think back, were the light even the villains of season 3 and 4? 3 I remember being more Granny being the villain, and I don't remember enough of 4 to remember what was going on there.
Seasons 3 and 4 seem to lean more on the partnership/rivalry between the Light and Apokolips. Even if the main villains of season 4 were the House of Zod, they were facilitated by Lor-Zod and Ma'alefa'ak working for Darkseid.
>Luthor steps on a lego alone at his home while going to the toilet at night
>"Oww son of a- I mean, muhahhaha, all according to plan."