It's funny that everyone hates the skintight riddler suit or things it was a Jim Carrey homage...when it was his first appearance and was largely in use up until a few years into post-crisis where they started drawing him with the Gorshin suit. Not saying it's better, I prefer the suit too, but it's not like they made it up. BTAS was the Gorshin Riddler suit and TNBA was modeled after the tights.
Gorshin wearing the suit in 66 was mainly a hideout thing IIRC, when he went into action he'd wear the skintight costume.
I think a lot of us know that Riddler skintight suit was one of his original designs, the problem lies in that once they introduced the suit with Gorshin, you realized just how much cooler it was than tights.
And I mean like, it's hard to compare a fricking swagger suit with a trapeze outfit. It's part of why Joker always looks good.
It's still better than a trashbag-looking coat and a gimp mask.
Hot take: Scarecrow was better before. Not because the new version isn't better drawn and scarier, but because Scarecrow should be fricking goofy loser who thinks he's scary when he's actually not, he's just a dipshit that needs to drug people to feel like he's a boss .
To be honest, I always liked 1992 Scarecrow's face. It's both goofy and spooky.
They always wanted to do classic Penguin but they were still on the tails of the Burton films so they had to use the movie design. They switched it back as son as they could.
I hate this Bane design so much it's unreal.
BTAS one would've been perfect if not for those stupid lips and exposed nose.
Knowing the hateboner Timm and Dini had for him, I wonder if him getting such shitty designs is on purpose.
>Knowing the hateboner Timm and Dini had for him
Is there any proof for this or is it just one of those things repeated by fans so much it's taken for truth
I don't know if "hateboner" is the right term, but Dini has stated in interviews/podcasts he never liked Bane. Bane just wasn't the sort of character that Dini wanted for the type of stories he wanted to write. In fairness Bane from the comics is pretty at odds with the sort of show BTAS was trying to be (and frankly he's not anywhere close to what S&P would allow on network television).
which is stupid because "evil Doc Savage" would be perfectly in line with the pulp sensibilities of the show. Timm just didn't like his design and Dini was b***hy he was a newer character.
I don't know if "hateboner" is the right term, but Dini has stated in interviews/podcasts he never liked Bane. Bane just wasn't the sort of character that Dini wanted for the type of stories he wanted to write. In fairness Bane from the comics is pretty at odds with the sort of show BTAS was trying to be (and frankly he's not anywhere close to what S&P would allow on network television).
tbf, if you look at the Batman stuff they worked on, Bane almost never gets the chance to be anything more than 'tough guy #2'.
which is stupid because "evil Doc Savage" would be perfectly in line with the pulp sensibilities of the show. Timm just didn't like his design and Dini was b***hy he was a newer character.
Modern Masters Volume 3: Bruce Timm
I took a screencap using a Google Books preview back in 2018 and posted it on Cinemaphile but the image is dead and Google Books stopped allowing previews on it
https://arch.b4k.co/v/thread/432108809/#q432113765
I don't know why DC people always feel the need to reinvent the wheel with Bane. Knightfall design is near-perfect. I could live without the zipper on the back, but otherwise it's pretty menacing.
It's always a wonder to see good artists fricking up their own work and even wanking over it "oh yeah it's so much better now".
I feel this kind of artists are good when they are reined in, but once they has "proven themselves" the producer/editor/rest of the team give them leeway to do whatever shit they want with stars in their eyes and it's bad. You often need a good artist AND a good editor to get good results.
Hot take: Scarecrow was better before. Not because the new version isn't better drawn and scarier, but because Scarecrow should be fricking goofy loser who thinks he's scary when he's actually not, he's just a dipshit that needs to drug people to feel like he's a boss .
Agree about Scarecrow. He should only look like the 1997 version when viewed from the perspective of someone he has drugged. His whole gimmick kind of falls apart if he doesn't look like a dork underneath the fear.
Kinda makes sense why Scarecrow wasn’t around all that much in the Dark Knight trilogy since he can only get away with being masked up if he'd actually continued drugging more people after Batman Begins. In Dark Knight Scarecrow only uses his persona as some kind of McDonald mascot for his drug business rather than going around scaring people with it.
>dork underneath the fear.
And now I'm reminded of a scene from Harley's Vacation.
Scarecrow without a costume is dragged by orderlies through the halway of Arkham Asylum, sputing threats and insults like the typical supervillian, until they pass by Harley's cell.
Scarecrow pauses and politely goes
"Hello Miss Quinzell"
Harley: *cheerfully* Hello Doctor Crane
And he goes right back to raving as they drag him along.
riddler - please give me a concussion so i forget this skin tight suit shit
catwoman - is that a character or a shadow?
Everything else is good enough?
Honestly if they changed riddler i think i could forgive other stuff. And catwoman needs some light colors, also the grey mouth/skin doesn't help.
Poison ivy has odd grey skin too, but she's like a plant girl, so it's not that bad for me.
New scarecrow looks great vs old, and i think same for croc.
I like the older design of Scarecrow, but wish they gave him that stick and made him actually scary. I need to draw what I'm trying to describe, words are failing me.
They always wanted to do classic Penguin but they were still on the tails of the Burton films so they had to use the movie design. They switched it back as son as they could.
so why did they push Catwoman's design even closer to Batman Returns?
Neat. I like both designs of Scarecrow, I'll be honest. Later Batman design is simpler and I guess that works for ease of animation but I can't deny, I like the blue underside of cape for his overall color scheme.
BTAS had a long development time and in that time they bought on a lot of different artists to contribute designs. TNBA was largely Timm and Shane Glines
Why are you spamming that pic gay?
Also you’re an idiot, TNBA is mostly Timm and Murakami
Keep being a pleb
which is stupid because "evil Doc Savage" would be perfectly in line with the pulp sensibilities of the show. Timm just didn't like his design and Dini was b***hy he was a newer character.
They protested a lot, like not using Doomsday or using classic Aquaman on the Superman show
You can keep the new suit color scheme. Much nicer shade of purple.
Never liked BTAS one, bit too pink-ish for my taste. And before someone brings it up, I feel the same way about Romero's suit.
It's funny that everyone hates the skintight riddler suit or things it was a Jim Carrey homage...when it was his first appearance and was largely in use up until a few years into post-crisis where they started drawing him with the Gorshin suit. Not saying it's better, I prefer the suit too, but it's not like they made it up. BTAS was the Gorshin Riddler suit and TNBA was modeled after the tights.
Gorshin wearing the suit in 66 was mainly a hideout thing IIRC, when he went into action he'd wear the skintight costume.
I think a lot of us know that Riddler skintight suit was one of his original designs, the problem lies in that once they introduced the suit with Gorshin, you realized just how much cooler it was than tights.
And I mean like, it's hard to compare a fricking swagger suit with a trapeze outfit. It's part of why Joker always looks good.
the suit is such a perfect fit for riddler i question the sanity of anyone who insists on using the tights
mr. "i'm smarter than you look how great i am" would not let himself be seen in something that ridiculous, i don't care how crazy he is
>They made Catwoman raven haired from her original blonde.
She was only blonde in B:TAS because they had to base her look off of her Batman Returns appearance, same as Penguin.
I still think the best style is how Bruce Timm drew the characters too bad never animated like that and was made more 3D and rubbery because that original style but more sharp and flat also thick outlines is prefect.
There's a YouTube channel called Watchtower Database who did a video about this. They said it was because TNBA and STAS were airing concurrently, and they were using different (cheap Chinese) studios, the designs needed to be simplified in case of crossover, so that both studios could animate them the same.
I know they were forced to make the designs look like the Burton movies, and that's why they made the Penguin look more like the Danny Devito version from Returns and abandoned it as soon as they could. But tbh I always liked the Devito version more. He looks disheveled, unkept, and more grotesque. He actually looks like a penguin, an obese little freak. More sinister and menacing. I feel like alter versions of the Penguin followed that formula too, like in City.
>Objective upgrades
Batman
Robin
Ivy
Scarecrow
Croc >Preference
Penguin >Objective downgrades
Batgirl (Darker costume means you can't see her breasts and ass outline as good)
Joker
Riddler
Catwoman (Same issue as Batgirl plus she looks like an albino gremlin without DSL)
Growing up during the Bat-Embargo it actually kind of blew my mind as a kid seeing a show just a little before my time that actually acknowledged Nightwing exists.
upgrades
Big Mouse breasts?
These look identical in design, only that it was drawn by different artists where one didn't follow the model sheet exactly.
I will never get used to the riddler in a skin tight bodysuit
It's still better than a trashbag-looking coat and a gimp mask.
The answer is that less details and colours made them easier and thus cheaper to animate
why is robin's face only up to his cheekbones?
the only one of the redesigns that's better than the original is Scarecrow
So Joker was originally going to have red lips? That would've saved the redesign. He was too bland without them.
No, that was done in protest by Timm- basically going the red lips poorly after he was asked to show that it wouldn't look right.
I like it. Except for Penguin, they really screwed him over
I thought people liked classy gentleman Penguin. He's closer to his original design, after all.
To be honest, I always liked 1992 Scarecrow's face. It's both goofy and spooky.
They always wanted to do classic Penguin but they were still on the tails of the Burton films so they had to use the movie design. They switched it back as son as they could.
I hate this Bane design so much it's unreal.
BTAS one would've been perfect if not for those stupid lips and exposed nose.
Knowing the hateboner Timm and Dini had for him, I wonder if him getting such shitty designs is on purpose.
>Knowing the hateboner Timm and Dini had for him
Is there any proof for this or is it just one of those things repeated by fans so much it's taken for truth
I don't know if "hateboner" is the right term, but Dini has stated in interviews/podcasts he never liked Bane. Bane just wasn't the sort of character that Dini wanted for the type of stories he wanted to write. In fairness Bane from the comics is pretty at odds with the sort of show BTAS was trying to be (and frankly he's not anywhere close to what S&P would allow on network television).
which is stupid because "evil Doc Savage" would be perfectly in line with the pulp sensibilities of the show. Timm just didn't like his design and Dini was b***hy he was a newer character.
tbf, if you look at the Batman stuff they worked on, Bane almost never gets the chance to be anything more than 'tough guy #2'.
Modern Masters Volume 3: Bruce Timm
I took a screencap using a Google Books preview back in 2018 and posted it on Cinemaphile but the image is dead and Google Books stopped allowing previews on it
https://arch.b4k.co/v/thread/432108809/#q432113765
It's on any RCO site as well. I post a few choice pages in these threads
Timm and Dini said that they tried to make Bane looks scary for this TNBA design, so I doubt it was on purpose, it just wasn't a good design
I don't know why DC people always feel the need to reinvent the wheel with Bane. Knightfall design is near-perfect. I could live without the zipper on the back, but otherwise it's pretty menacing.
I don't get why he has shoulder hair but no chest or stomach hair
Nu-Croc is really dope.
>"he's a man wonder now"
Who's got art of those two?
It's always a wonder to see good artists fricking up their own work and even wanking over it "oh yeah it's so much better now".
I feel this kind of artists are good when they are reined in, but once they has "proven themselves" the producer/editor/rest of the team give them leeway to do whatever shit they want with stars in their eyes and it's bad. You often need a good artist AND a good editor to get good results.
Catwoman's literally revolting.
what the frick were they thinking with riddler
It's probably because of Jim Carrey's Riddler.
Joker, Penguin, and Riddler are downgrades. The rest are about the same or better.
Better:
>Batman
>Batgirl
>Penguin
>Croc
Worse
>Joker
>Riddler
>Catwoman
>Ivy
Hot take: Scarecrow was better before. Not because the new version isn't better drawn and scarier, but because Scarecrow should be fricking goofy loser who thinks he's scary when he's actually not, he's just a dipshit that needs to drug people to feel like he's a boss .
The 1992 Scarecrow looks too much like the Superfriends version.
Agree about Scarecrow. He should only look like the 1997 version when viewed from the perspective of someone he has drugged. His whole gimmick kind of falls apart if he doesn't look like a dork underneath the fear.
Kinda makes sense why Scarecrow wasn’t around all that much in the Dark Knight trilogy since he can only get away with being masked up if he'd actually continued drugging more people after Batman Begins. In Dark Knight Scarecrow only uses his persona as some kind of McDonald mascot for his drug business rather than going around scaring people with it.
>dork underneath the fear.
And now I'm reminded of a scene from Harley's Vacation.
Scarecrow without a costume is dragged by orderlies through the halway of Arkham Asylum, sputing threats and insults like the typical supervillian, until they pass by Harley's cell.
Scarecrow pauses and politely goes
"Hello Miss Quinzell"
Harley: *cheerfully* Hello Doctor Crane
And he goes right back to raving as they drag him along.
I found that whole short exchange hilarious.
I agree, Scarecrow's character works better with that contrast. He's scary when you're under the effect of his fear toxin, but that's it.
There's only some bad changes.
riddler - please give me a concussion so i forget this skin tight suit shit
catwoman - is that a character or a shadow?
Everything else is good enough?
Honestly if they changed riddler i think i could forgive other stuff. And catwoman needs some light colors, also the grey mouth/skin doesn't help.
Poison ivy has odd grey skin too, but she's like a plant girl, so it's not that bad for me.
New scarecrow looks great vs old, and i think same for croc.
Scarecrow never had a standard look in the original Timm series anyway. He was redesigned each time he appeared.
My favorite was the 2nd one
I think the TNBA design actually works better as Solomon Grundy than it does as Scarecrow.
I like the older design of Scarecrow, but wish they gave him that stick and made him actually scary. I need to draw what I'm trying to describe, words are failing me.
Pengiun was always supposed to look like the bottom image. The show runners were forced to change him to get synergy with the Burtonverse.
so why did they push Catwoman's design even closer to Batman Returns?
Boners
Neat. I like both designs of Scarecrow, I'll be honest. Later Batman design is simpler and I guess that works for ease of animation but I can't deny, I like the blue underside of cape for his overall color scheme.
BTAS had a long development time and in that time they bought on a lot of different artists to contribute designs. TNBA was largely Timm and Shane Glines
Why are you spamming that pic gay?
Also you’re an idiot, TNBA is mostly Timm and Murakami
Keep being a pleb
They protested a lot, like not using Doomsday or using classic Aquaman on the Superman show
I'm fine with Joker's new design, but I hate his face. Just this simple change is so much more appealing.
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Looking back, the black eyes were such a weird design choice. He even looks like a bootleg Dream.
You can keep the new suit color scheme. Much nicer shade of purple.
Never liked BTAS one, bit too pink-ish for my taste. And before someone brings it up, I feel the same way about Romero's suit.
Yeah, the best version of it is the compromise they got in the Justice League/Batman Beyond.
Hey now, give it the credit ut deserves my man. I think you mean Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker's comprise.
It's funny that everyone hates the skintight riddler suit or things it was a Jim Carrey homage...when it was his first appearance and was largely in use up until a few years into post-crisis where they started drawing him with the Gorshin suit. Not saying it's better, I prefer the suit too, but it's not like they made it up. BTAS was the Gorshin Riddler suit and TNBA was modeled after the tights.
Gorshin wearing the suit in 66 was mainly a hideout thing IIRC, when he went into action he'd wear the skintight costume.
Remember when Gorshin voiced Hugo Strange in The Batman 2004.
Always thought green tights Riddler was what his hired goons should have been wearing.
usually that's what they all wear
I think a lot of us know that Riddler skintight suit was one of his original designs, the problem lies in that once they introduced the suit with Gorshin, you realized just how much cooler it was than tights.
And I mean like, it's hard to compare a fricking swagger suit with a trapeze outfit. It's part of why Joker always looks good.
the suit is such a perfect fit for riddler i question the sanity of anyone who insists on using the tights
mr. "i'm smarter than you look how great i am" would not let himself be seen in something that ridiculous, i don't care how crazy he is
Never had Query and Echo
we were robbed
I have to admit i like the scarecrow's upgrade. Penguin is the one that got it worst.
>thread theme
They ruined Ivy and Catwoman. They made Catwoman raven haired from her original blonde.
>They made Catwoman raven haired from her original blonde.
She was only blonde in B:TAS because they had to base her look off of her Batman Returns appearance, same as Penguin.
Kids WB was in less homes than FOX=Lower budget= Less details in animation.
To look closer to the 1996 Superman show, Scarecrow was a good change tho
Literally all of the designs are worse except for the last three and Poison Ivy is definitely debatable. Even as a kid, I knew it was bullshit
Still not jarring as Jake Long S1 to S2
i hate the penguin redesign. yeah it's more comic accurate but "weird gross bird freak" is a better angle for the penguin than a shady businessman
The only flops are Riddler and Catwoman, everyone else is fine
why not?
>kino redesign
>voiced by jeffrey fricking combs
>only appears in 1 1/2 episodes and never again
fricking bullshit
It was a very impactful 1/2 episode though.
Damn, I forgot that his only lines in the Batgirl episode are a generic cackle.
I still think the best style is how Bruce Timm drew the characters too bad never animated like that and was made more 3D and rubbery because that original style but more sharp and flat also thick outlines is prefect.
What is their problem?
I don’t know why Harley’s making me laugh so hard here
There's a YouTube channel called Watchtower Database who did a video about this. They said it was because TNBA and STAS were airing concurrently, and they were using different (cheap Chinese) studios, the designs needed to be simplified in case of crossover, so that both studios could animate them the same.
I know they were forced to make the designs look like the Burton movies, and that's why they made the Penguin look more like the Danny Devito version from Returns and abandoned it as soon as they could. But tbh I always liked the Devito version more. He looks disheveled, unkept, and more grotesque. He actually looks like a penguin, an obese little freak. More sinister and menacing. I feel like alter versions of the Penguin followed that formula too, like in City.
>Objective upgrades
Batman
Robin
Ivy
Scarecrow
Croc
>Preference
Penguin
>Objective downgrades
Batgirl (Darker costume means you can't see her breasts and ass outline as good)
Joker
Riddler
Catwoman (Same issue as Batgirl plus she looks like an albino gremlin without DSL)
BTAS Joker, Penguin, Riddler, and Catwoman are better.
Everyone else in TNBA is an upgrade.
Growing up during the Bat-Embargo it actually kind of blew my mind as a kid seeing a show just a little before my time that actually acknowledged Nightwing exists.
Stupid asians couldn't stay on-model.
Because despite what you might think or remember of TAS a lot of the time? It wasn't animated very well.
Stop lying to zoomers
A lot of time =/= ALL of the time.