Yes. But Claybabygays are like Halgays, would probably had called in a bomb threat because the Wonder Woman they grew up to and wanked off too was too different.
Amazons have always been horribly writer, its either men making them super models who hate men or female writers projecting their idealized society on them, at least azzarello tried to write them with some thought put in, rather then petty politics.
Don't forget female writers turning them into rapebait. Yes Gail Simone, that rape camp in Secret Six gave me a chubby. No, it added absolutely nothing good to the Amazon lore when significant parts of the tribe seriously considered suicide after what happened to them after Amazons Attack!
Look up the Secret Six runs. God, the more I read into Amazonshit the more I find new, novel reasons to hate it.
10 months ago
Anonymous
okay what happens though
10 months ago
Anonymous
RAPE CAMP
RAPE RAPE RAPE RAPE RAPE
10 months ago
Anonymous
Simone had the biggest grudge against Wondy in that arc.
10 months ago
Anonymous
No she had the biggest grudge against men who like Wonder Woman.
10 months ago
Anonymous
After Amazons Attack, when the Amazons declared war on mankind and lost, the Secret Six take a job for a slave camp and discover a bunch of Amazon POWs being kept. There’s at least an implication that the guards sexually abuse the prisoners in addition to forced labor. I haven’t read the run in a few years but that’s what I remember about the arc.
10 months ago
Anonymous
they get sold as sex slaves too
10 months ago
Anonymous
one characters states they were gonna be sold to fat businessmen and sheiks
The concept of Wonder Woman as a "feminist" hero has always fascinated me. her creation was influenced by the fetishistic and pseudointellectual views of her creator(William Marston). Wonder Woman really shouldn't exist beyond that one guy's writing. Despite this due to circumstances she was basically "appropriated" by feminists who embraced her as a heroine and icon of female strength and women's rights
Marston and H. G. Peter were linked to first wave feminism and suffragettes >Marston and Peter were peers and supporters of the suffragettes and feminists of the early 20th century. Marston — an extended family member to birth control activists Margaret Sanger and Ethel Byrne — often wrote, lectured, and taught in favor of equality for women, and Peter and his wife Adonica Fulton often drew editorial cartoons in supportive magazines,[11] such as Judge,[12] which featured "The Modern Woman" page from 1912 to 1917.
10 months ago
Anonymous
>etta just casually stuffing her face as diana assaults a dude
lmao, based
The problem with modern day Wonder Woman is she’s divorced from her origin. In classic comics by Marston Diana is a very soft figure - her main tools are her lasso and her gauntlets. She’s not a warrior with a sword or shield - she’s a motherly figure who protects with her bracers and subdues people with her lasso. This is based on Marston’s giga based sex life, but the truth is Diana’s actual weapon is her lasso. Reading all comics, Diana in terms of temperament is more like…Snow White or Betty boop. She’s kind of a motherly fussy figure who shows up and fixes things with the power of love and kindness. She’s very much a messianic figure who values empathy and kindness over violence.
I don’t know when, but eventually Diana was turned into little more than a sword and shield warrior woman. When her lasso stopped being her main tool, Diana lost her original intent as being someone who solved conflicts nonviolently and peacefully with the power of love, and became more of a killer, which is why she’s always stuck in an identity crisis now. Her masculine qualities were valued over her feminine qualities. But the truth is, Diana’s feminine qualities were what makes her likable - classic Diana reminds me of magical girl shows and Disney princesses, which are what actually sell well to a demographic of young girls.
10 months ago
Anonymous
>I don’t know when
I’m not baiting when I say that despite his run being entertaining Perez killed Wonder Woman. Post crisis she became a Greco-Roman warrior.
10 months ago
Anonymous
I’ve heard Perez mentioned in this thread a lot of times. What did he do?
10 months ago
Anonymous
Ripped out all the non-mythological aspects of the Amazons and replaced their techno fantasy with modern fantasy Greek mythology. A bunch of other things too, like removing classic supporting cast and starting the notion that WW needs to be in a relationship with Superman. It's a good run, but in hindsight it was detrimental to future development in some aspects.
Relatable issues like:
Being in the top 10 richest people on earth and being able to learn faster than any other human alive
Having the strength and speed of a god
Being amazingly smart and the strength of 100 men
The stories where normal people resent, are jealous and mistrust them for petty ignorant reasons are probably the most realistic. People are shitty. Superman is better than the average human if only because he just doesn't kill 100s of shitty people everyday
Clark at least had his entire upbringing as a normal person so he gets it. Bruce should barely be functional when dealing with others.
I wonder which lesbian drew this and based cheetah on her ugly girlfriend
It's based on the movie Cheetah.
10 months ago
Anonymous
>Clark at least had his entire upbringing as a normal person so he gets it. Bruce should barely be functional when dealing with others.
Bruce should come off as borderline autistic given that his butler was his main source of social contact for years. His world journey for ninja training doesn't explain his fake ladies man persona.
It would be more realistic that his fake Bruce side was like Zap from Futurama. Just kind of clueless try hard that scores mad puss because of money and status. Which would be pretty realistic given how mega wealthy people with shitty childhoods act.
Him being a naturally charming and good natured man that ladies love is probably one of the more fantasy parts of batman.
10 months ago
Anonymous
Bruce Wayne is functionally a schizoid, but they don’t have any real issues with being socially adept. Bruce didn’t go Batman until his 20’s, that’s plenty of time to be at least superficially functional.
10 months ago
Anonymous
I never even got what this character's hook was supposed to be. She was conceived of as a feminist symbol and patriotic WWII hero/Writer's Thinly Disguised Fetish, but her premise has been redundant for the better part of a century. What's her identity then? Just a general-issue Greek mythological hero?
I think another issue is the fact that at least in the west, women do have a semblance of equality and have their own voices and opinions, her all female society is now just a bunch of Immortal LARPers who aren't really women in the sense they aren't human beings. and are completely disconnected from the experiences of regular women.
10 months ago
Anonymous
>completely disconnected from the experiences of regular .
This is most super stuff
10 months ago
Anonymous
yeah but Superman, Batman, and Spider-Man for example all grew up in normal society and at least nominally are supposed to deal with relatable issues.
10 months ago
Anonymous
Relatable issues like:
Being in the top 10 richest people on earth and being able to learn faster than any other human alive
Having the strength and speed of a god
Being amazingly smart and the strength of 100 men
The stories where normal people resent, are jealous and mistrust them for petty ignorant reasons are probably the most realistic. People are shitty. Superman is better than the average human if only because he just doesn't kill 100s of shitty people everyday
10 months ago
Anonymous
Superman has the failings of essentially hiding himself and sort of blithely ignoring existential questions about himself (doesn’t his existence question the small town faith of the Kents?) as well as more or less being 24/7 aware of any crap going on around him and he has to at some point make a moral choice to let bad things happen, or at least not hold himself accountable. Clark’s world would be dim if he were the only superhero around
10 months ago
Anonymous
It would be interesting to see an adult take on superman without it being edgy. Superman is the way he is because it's a story for 8 year olds before the invention of personal computers.
Trying to retroactively explain why supes or batman arw the way they are using a modern adult sensibility is probably ultimately futile. A what if that restarts things and sees how they play out would be better.
Though we'll never get that because there isn't a good way to explain why superman would tolerate the last 80 years of politics from the three biggest superpowers.
Marvel gets around that by making most of their superheros flawed dumbasses with only 1 or 2 powers. But even they write themselves into corners by having so many world ending powered mutants.
10 months ago
Anonymous
>Marvel gets around that by making most of their superheros flawed dumbasses with only 1 or 2 powers. But even they write themselves into corners by having so many world ending powered mutants.
It is interesting that most all knowing beings in marvel books want to destroy humanity and it is only beings of limited perception that think humans are worth it. Then the frick ups usually only manage to save humanity via teamwork and luck.
Maybe the writers are trying to tell us something. That it would only be rational to hate humans if you knew all the fires evil men have their irons in.
10 months ago
Anonymous
It would be interesting to see an adult take on superman without it being edgy. Superman is the way he is because it's a story for 8 year olds before the invention of personal computers.
Trying to retroactively explain why supes or batman arw the way they are using a modern adult sensibility is probably ultimately futile. A what if that restarts things and sees how they play out would be better.
Though we'll never get that because there isn't a good way to explain why superman would tolerate the last 80 years of politics from the three biggest superpowers.
Marvel gets around that by making most of their superheros flawed dumbasses with only 1 or 2 powers. But even they write themselves into corners by having so many world ending powered mutants.
>Though we'll never get that because there isn't a good way to explain why superman would tolerate the last 80 years of politics from the three biggest superpowers. >Maybe the writers are trying to tell us something. That it would only be rational to hate humans if you knew all the fires evil men have their irons in
Samegayging to sperg your totally mature views on humanity is certainly a mature thing to do. I’m sure your superhero fan fics are just wonderful works of art. Tell me, do you wear a lot of purple, do you live in a society?
10 months ago
Anonymous
>Though we'll never get that because there isn't a good way to explain why superman would tolerate the last 80 years of politics from the three biggest superpowers.
The reason it couldn’t work is because you insufferable homosexual manchildren always say shit like this IMMEDIATELY when bringing up superheroe comics for adults.
CAPE COMICS ARENT MEANT TO STROKE YOUR CABLE NEWS AND SOCIAL MEDIA ROTTED BRAINS
EVERY SINGLE TIME YOU homosexual ASS MAN CHILDREN TURN “SUPERHERO BUT FOR ADULTS” INTO “WHY ARENT THEY JUST GOD DICTATORS INSTEAD”.
THATS FRICKING EDGY YOU INSUFFERABLE homosexual YOU COULDNT AVOID BEING AN EDGY INSUFFERABLE homosexual FOR SIX SENTENCES AFTER SAYING IT WOULD BE INTERESTING TO HAVE AN ADUKT TAKE ON HIM THAT WASNT EDGY.
FRICK YOU
10 months ago
Anonymous
Superheroes, not just Superman, are an inherently childish concept. But trying to make them “adult” or “mature” is genuinely the most juvenile thing I can imagine.
>Though we'll never get that because there isn't a good way to explain why superman would tolerate the last 80 years of politics from the three biggest superpowers.
The reason it couldn’t work is because you insufferable homosexual manchildren always say shit like this IMMEDIATELY when bringing up superheroe comics for adults.
CAPE COMICS ARENT MEANT TO STROKE YOUR CABLE NEWS AND SOCIAL MEDIA ROTTED BRAINS
EVERY SINGLE TIME YOU homosexual ASS MAN CHILDREN TURN “SUPERHERO BUT FOR ADULTS” INTO “WHY ARENT THEY JUST GOD DICTATORS INSTEAD”.
THATS FRICKING EDGY YOU INSUFFERABLE homosexual YOU COULDNT AVOID BEING AN EDGY INSUFFERABLE homosexual FOR SIX SENTENCES AFTER SAYING IT WOULD BE INTERESTING TO HAVE AN ADUKT TAKE ON HIM THAT WASNT EDGY.
FRICK YOU
This.
10 months ago
Anonymous
Young girls like swords and bows too, just don't overdo it. At least putting a bit of Greek warrior into her characterization gave her something. Magical girl Wonder Woman has no appeal to anyone older than eight.
10 months ago
Anonymous
>Magical girl Wonder Woman
Dudes would be down as long as she is cute hot and she fights cool badies. Sailor moon got a lot of milage out of lots of fights and showing a little leg
10 months ago
Anonymous
Sailor Moon is A. explicitly targeted at 8 year olds, and B. has no fights. I'm not exaggerating. Every other fight is just like the villain blasts them, they go kywaaaa they fall down there's no background and what they're being blasted with is usually vague as well. Almost none of the attacks in Sailor Moon are even drawn lol you just see speed lines around the girls and they make noises that indicate they're being hit by something.
One of the villains of the penultimate arc, I'm not joking, has the power to make the room uncomfortably hot but less hot than a hot day. This isn't presented as a gag, this is a serious issue for the team. They overcome it by having Pluto come in, because Pluto is used to running on hot days due to training for a marathon. This is not a series really built around combat.
10 months ago
Anonymous
You're aware that sailor moon has shows, movies and games with actual attacks, right?
10 months ago
Anonymous
>One of the villains of the penultimate arc, I'm not joking, has the power to make the room uncomfortably hot but less hot than a hot day. This isn't presented as a gag, this is a serious issue for the team. They overcome it by having Pluto come in, because Pluto is used to running on hot days due to training for a marathon. This is not a series really built around combat.
just like jojo
10 months ago
Anonymous
A magical girl inspired series--maybe set in 1940s-- where Diana gets to defeat everyone with the power of friendship and fists (+lasso) could do very well.
10 months ago
Anonymous
Write her as a serious ladybug type where you can have her in decent fights as a superhero/magical girl and convoluted romance stories to get the male and female audience.
With the Greek mythology aesthetics you can even take inspo from saint Seiya
That would be sooooo good
10 months ago
Anonymous
>saint Seiya
Better have a b***h'n opening
10 months ago
Anonymous
They really don't "A" young girl may like swords, bows and all that but she will almost never find a girl friend to talk about it with, meanwhile there's a near endless sea of women who've kept to their Magical girl phase well into adulthood.
Wonder Woman was made in the 40's and reflects how women acted during this time period. However in the 60's when women were campaigning for greater rights she shifted to be more of a feminist icon. Now that women have similar rights to men being a feminist icon hinders what they can do with her as she needs to act as a moral center.
Man, remember when Highfather thought that Zeus turning into a baby would somehow kill the Source?
Or when Orion showed up to punch a baby only to end up flirting badly with Diana and get his junk nearly torn off?
Or when Hera learned absolutely nothing from her friendship arc with Diana and tried to backstab her?
Or when THE FIRST BORN, Zeus' OC donut steel son, showed up and started bodying Olympians?
Or when the last page of the run was literally Diana crying alone on the beach when Zeus just abandoned baby form and abandoned her to reclaim his throne?
Orion in particular seemed really out of character. They couldn't figure out what to do with him so they just wrote him like the stereotypical 80's jock bully from a John Hughes film.
Man, remember when Highfather thought that Zeus turning into a baby would somehow kill the Source?
Or when Orion showed up to punch a baby only to end up flirting badly with Diana and get his junk nearly torn off?
Or when Hera learned absolutely nothing from her friendship arc with Diana and tried to backstab her?
Or when THE FIRST BORN, Zeus' OC donut steel son, showed up and started bodying Olympians?
Or when the last page of the run was literally Diana crying alone on the beach when Zeus just abandoned baby form and abandoned her to reclaim his throne?
This is such a good way of summarizing why Azzarello's stuff doesn't work for many, especially those who fell for a different version of Diana.
Yes. But Claybabygays are like Halgays, would probably had called in a bomb threat because the Wonder Woman they grew up to and wanked off too was too different.
Hal is based, demigodess Wondy is based. The problem with Kyle is he just sucked.
Nobody knows what to even do with her and when they do, it's never agreed upon
Thread could have ended here. The problem is really much more fundamental than any specific writer's take.
You're just never, ever going to find a good writer whose dream job is writing Wonder Woman these days at DC, AND who can satisfy feminists, grecoboos and cheesecake fetishists at the same time.
Big issue is she's never had a true establishing run/writer that stuck in the public consiousness but is kept at the forefront because she's token woman for the jla. That and her fanbase being a three way split of feminists, grecoboos and cheesecake fetishists.
That being said you have occasional gems like Trinity and the taco whiz story where she pushes for actual self-reliance and advocacy. "Nut up or shut up" as a default stance would have made her a solid middleground between batman and supes.
Pic related as another example of that i guess. "Things are always gonna suck so you have to deal" isn't really a message capeshit readers want though.
>Big issue is she's never had a true establishing run/writer that stuck in the public consiousness
Nah I’d say specifically the problem is that there is that
PEREZ
And he ruined Wonder Woman. Took out all of the fun and whimsy and techno fantasy for mythology and warrior shit. It’s awful but women find it a more feminist take and so DC pushes that.
They’d genuinely love to turn the Amazon’s into the modern day bulldyke Spartans, just look at the new 52
Because what we’ve gotten recently is bad specifically because all it does is rely on hackeyed mythology. It’s awful, there hasn’t been a good Wonder Woman ongoing since the 90s.
it's just one person
No, it’s definitely not. Even without this loser larping
>I liked the Perez run from years ago
Then you’re not a true WW fan. Perez ruined WW forever.
1. I’m not attracted to children
2. I’m not that anon
3. You’re being a massive fricking homosexual fighting the surf
4. You’re like a newbie.
5. Stream your suicide or go back or accept reality. You came here, we didn’t ask for you.
MAPgays were literially made up here on Cinemaphile by /misc/tards to turn people against the LGBT. Pedophiles exist, but the whole idea of them being politically organized and part of the LGBT community is *literially* a load of crap minted right here as a prank.
so, since it was announced has there been any news on the Wonder Woman game? any news at all?
I know it's not really related to the OP but I didn't see any other Wondie threads
She desperately needs an animated show. If she'd had obe concurrently with Batman and Superman way more people would have a better understanding of her lore and villains.
>Wonder Woman leaves Paradise Island because of the alien invasion, stealing her apparatus and running away >Steve Trevor was a guy from WWII she met in a time travel adventure >She is Hades' daughter >Hades is an Ares replacement >Cheetah is a human-cat hybrid scientific experiment
Not many writers are interested in writing her in general, and the few that do are split between people with apparently absolutely abhorrent takes or people desperate to write "their" Wonder Woman.
>Batman has a clown >Superman has Jeff Bezos
Her main villain is usually split between Ares and Circe, casual.
Not many writers are interested in writing her in general, and the few that do are split between people with apparently absolutely abhorrent takes or people desperate to write "their" Wonder Woman.
>Batman has a clown >Superman has Jeff Bezos
Her main villain is usually split between Ares and Circe, casual.
Circe has been turned into a girlboss frenemy, it's problematic to have a female villain actually act like a villain nowadays!!
>complaining about Circe the girlboss frenemy >not also complaining that Rebirth retconned Ares into never having done anything wrong at all
It's kind of funny that even the character designed as a designated new archnemesis for her has just left Wonder Woman behind too, judging from Grail showing up in Dark Crisis not really giving a shit about her specifically. She's stuck with Cheetah as her designated arch because the writers don't wan to admit they're not smart enough to come up with a way for her to beat enemies more competent and powerful than Cheetah.
Actually scratch that, at the MOST recent they turned Cheetah back into a friend again because of a vax that toned down her furry shit into being more catgirl-like, and now Diana's back to brawling with gods. And uh, her own past memories or some shit. Seriously the new run of Wonder Woman comics keeps going "look how shitty the Wonder Woman continuity is!" and then not really doing anything to help it, the writers genuinely can't think of any solution here, just to point and laugh at the problem.
Grail doesn't work as a WW villain and sucks in general. If she has to stay around, I'd move her to Cyborg or Jon Kent's rogue gallery. Cyborg needs less robotic villains and has a connection to the New Gods via his tech. Jon doesn't have a rogue gallery yet.
If she did get her own animated series, it would probably be hijacked by Batman and Superman cameos and would end up being another Justice League show by default because the producers would be worried that she couldn't carry the show on her own.
She’s a female character so she’s expected to be written by female writers these days and it’s led to her worst era ever.
The problem with all female characters is that they’re treated like they have to be “for women/girls” and so they specifically do shit that turns male readers off.
I mean in the last 5 years WW is nothing more than a BIPOC/LGBTWQAEADA/Feminist fantasy.
>She’s a female character so she’s expected to be written by female writers these days and it’s led to her worst era ever.
On its face, there isn't much wrong with that. The problem is that most women that want to write comics are fricking weirdos that were writing wynx club invader Zim cross over lesbian fanfics in high school and couldnt give two shits about wonder woman.
The best thing that could happen to wonder woman would be to hand her to a male writer that thought she was hot in his teens but now has daughters and wants to make something that they or his grandkids could enjoy. Something between attractive and wholesome.
If they could find a woman that can write that way, great, but I think those types of women skip writing for comics entirely and instead try to get into lifetime movies and sitcoms.
The world has changed but not the audience who buys comic books. The problem is most of the people working in comics divisions have never bought a floppy and don’t understand you can’t change the make up of that demographic (or thw serial release format which is why they fight it with decompression)
The answer to all of comics’ problems is to only hire people who have had a pull list at some point in their lives, preferably recently.
I don't know about that, the British invasion for example produced some of the greatest comics in the history of these companies and most of those guys weren't raised on comics.
Untrue
And the British Invasion made mostly terrible comics for people who didn’t like capeshit anymore but didn’t want to grow up. Most of it didn’t sell as well as Morrison or millar either.
If you mean the brits like gayman and and moore they were very studious readers and students of the form and history.
[...]
I don't know about that, the British invasion for example produced some of the greatest comics in the history of these companies and most of those guys weren't raised on comics.
I’d also add they had editors who were and understood the importance of telling them “no”. Editors now know less than every about the characters and history and don’t understand the reader because they never were one.
the most powerful voice in the creative room needs to the person most familiar with the character and fans. This is a business.
10 months ago
Anonymous
>Editors now know less than every about the characters and history and don’t understand the reader because they never were one.
Truth be told, the thing that is killing everything on co is student loan debt. Frickers lie about loving this comic and that cartoon because they have bills to pay. This drives a lot of people onto projects they don't really care about
[...]
I’d also add they had editors who were and understood the importance of telling them “no”. Editors now know less than every about the characters and history and don’t understand the reader because they never were one.
the most powerful voice in the creative room needs to the person most familiar with the character and fans. This is a business.
Now that's the thing hurting the current state of these comics imo. And I do think it's the editors who should have been loving these characters from childhood, because ultimately it's up to them to shape their world. Even with the arguably sub-par writers Marvel and DC have on payroll currently, a good editor team should be able to bring the best out of them. Instead they just give the okay to anything and the results are apparent.
I don’t think this is true. I think good writers want to write their favorites and DC wants them writing big books (if they’re good sellers particularly).
I think it’s just that in wonder woman’s case, in some ways a lot like black characters/writers, if you aren’t a woman you’re already walking on eggshells and if you don’t agree with making the Amazon’s masculine tough girls with a bunch of lesbian allusions or making Wonder Woman a tough girl neck snapper then you’re looked at as being condescending. But at the same time people who just want compassionate and fun Lynda Carter/pre-Perez wonder woman just tune out anything in which she’s even so much as holding a shield let alone wearing armor.
DC has a problem of letting writers and artists do whatever they want and when such different takes on characters exist it fractures the fandom and makes them antagonistic in some cases toward each other.
So between fan insanity and sociopolitical shit flinging it’s not worth it to write a female character, particularly well known ones - even and specifically wonder woman.
And then there's the bizarre case of Yara Flor, who was generally well liked upon her debut, that DC first decided to kill all promotion for and then apparently take her out of her original writer's hands and try to make her a bland Wonder Girl fill-in they just pretend has all kinds of wisdom and adventuring experience beyond her paltry solo and the Trials of the Amazons event you probably don't even know existed. And are really missing nothing of value by doing so.
Yara Flor was created for an event that wound up never happening which torpedoed any momentum and trajectory for the character from the outset. Getting backported to main continuity forced attention to be split with Nubia's ongoing push and coming after Artemis' gain in popularity, and the necessary deaging meant she was now a teen hero book and awkwardly plunged into the Wonder Girl role. Then no one read Trials of the Amazons (or really cared about the new Amazons), the writer changes, the book delays, and the plagiarism accusations buried Yara.
It had one delay. But I agree the moronic Nubia push was mostly what derailed yara. Along with the moronic editors not understanding that three fat Brazilian men in dresses aren’t their audience.
t. Actually bought the book and doesn’t rely on Twitter misinformation
The Nubia push genuinely pissed me off. Her Silver Age setup was a great place to use her as counter-commentary to Diana's ideals and provide an alternate viewpoint on the necessity of violence and alternate positions on feminism and gender relations. But instead we got another basic Amazon given an unwarranted importance in the narrative. Nubia's trajectory in modern comics feels like I'm reading a Phillipus story that was changed at the last minute.
>But at the same time people who just want compassionate and fun Lynda Carter/pre-Perez wonder woman just tune out anything in which she’s even so much as holding a shield let alone wearing armor.
Nobody has a problem with her wearing armor on occasion. Shield is just stupid. Even in Perez' run she barely used it even when she went to Hades.
I mean when the armor is basically just a cute dress nobody is going to complain. And when she’s dressed in shit like the golden chicken armor at least it’s for show.
Her normal outfit should be mostly cloth.
Also what’s with the weird dot on her chest there?
This “art” is horrible. Costumes and designs look solid though.
10 months ago
Anonymous
Yeah, it was mainly a Dynamite book, but DC wasn't spending much money for the art on the main Wonder Woman '77 either
10 months ago
Anonymous
Art Looks better there, I like the color and overall line work. The design is horrible though, what a hideous outfit. She looks like one of those hippie gypsy chicks who thinks witches and horoscopes are real.
But idk who the character is supposed to be, I’m not familiar with the likeness.
It's too late to bring back the campy goofy Amazon stories of the golden age.
We can argue whether that's a good thing or a bad thing, but you can't deny that right now it's less likely to take off than DC cutting down on the number of Batman books being published every year.
>It's too late to bring back the campy goofy Amazon stories of the golden age.
No it isn’t just like it isn’t “too late” to make Jon Kent a kid again and too young to have a sexuality. I’d argue it’s the perfect time for both. You sound like an employee touting company lines.
>We can argue whether that's a good thing or a bad thing
It’s undoubtedly a bad thing.
>You sound like an employee touting company lines.
And you sound like a boomer in denial that most people do not, in fact, want goofy Wonder Woman. If they did 1984 would have sold better.
Nobody can even AGREE what Wonder Woman should be. She's not part of the "Trinity" because she sells well, she's part of it because the writers thought a girl looks good on a team with two guys and she got grandfathered in there as a "key member" who conveniently never does anything as important as Batman or Superman.
>But JLD-
She spent most of JLD getting her ass kicked and needing OTHER VILLAINS to bail her out, it was a dreadful performance for someone who may or may not still be Zeus' byblow with Hippolyta.
>And you sound like a boomer in denial that most people do not, in fact, want goofy Wonder Woman. If they did 1984 would have sold better.
Yes, the problem with WW84 was the lighthearted tone, not the awful script
>And you sound like a boomer in denial that most people do not, in fact, want goofy Wonder Woman.
I’m 30 bro, you hustle just sound like a gods honest LGBTQ homosexual. Tell me I’m wrong.
And then there's the bizarre case of Yara Flor, who was generally well liked upon her debut, that DC first decided to kill all promotion for and then apparently take her out of her original writer's hands and try to make her a bland Wonder Girl fill-in they just pretend has all kinds of wisdom and adventuring experience beyond her paltry solo and the Trials of the Amazons event you probably don't even know existed. And are really missing nothing of value by doing so.
That’s because DC editors are all valley girls and gayfolk who spend too much time on twitter and think the three Brazilians who complained about jones writing the book were ever going to buy their comics.
I own every yara flor issue, hers were the only future state comics I bought. It was solid as frick. Great new character.
But I guess she wasn’t ugly or miserable or ragebaiting enough like the rest of them.
>Waah waah WAAAH
I'll tell you that the first Gail Simone WW movie turned a profit even with marketing cope calculations taken into account. And I'll also tell you that you don't actually have a damn clue how to actually make it happen.
>Great new character
On that we agree, though. Absolutely horrendous how that one Lazarus Planet writer made her a generic smug b***h instead of being endearingly brusque and earnest under her original writer. That's not the worst part though, the worst part is one of her briefly consistent features was having a highly negative opinion of Amazons/Themyscira but now she's being shoehorned as a Wonder Girl even though she should have no real investment in the position.
The trend seems to be to assign female characters to female writers. Aside from Louise Simonson, I can't think of a decent female comic writer. Every woman assigned to scribe WW has been awful.
I liked the Perez run from years ago, and the decision to make WW Zeus' daughter cements her as a person instead of that golem nonsense.
The problem is that WW is defined by committee instead of vision. She was pretty good in the JL animated series, but in the comics, there are too many suits calling the shots.
>I can't think of a decent female comic writer
My favorite comics written by women are all indie stuff like Persepolis whose writers never crossed over into the big two.
>and the decision to make WW Zeus' daughter cements her as a person instead of that golem nonsense.
No it doesn't, it makes her generic. The clay creation origin story actually was unique.
>She was pretty good in the JL animated series
No she wasn't, almost 100% of her personality in that show was being an angry c**t and wanting Batman's wiener. It contributed to the ruining of her character's perception.
Source of wonder woman fanart
https://twitter.com/serafleur/status/1672620153715015682 serafleur
https://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/6430711 >why can't she get good writers?
That subjective
Well from 1938 to about the late 80s DC was pumping out Superman stuff nonstop. Then Burton and Miller happened and we find ourselves in a sea of Batman content that will presumably last another decade or two. After that who knows? Maybe Wondy will get her time as DCs cash cow starting in the 2030s?
That would require women and gay men becoming much larger segments of her money spending audience. Most money spending Wonder Woman fans are still by and large straight men.
The world has changed™
Popular adaptations used to increase the sales of comic books and made the whole IP a "mania"
Wonder Woman's first movie was a hit but it didn't help the sales of the comic books one bit
The world has changed but not the audience who buys comic books. The problem is most of the people working in comics divisions have never bought a floppy and don’t understand you can’t change the make up of that demographic (or thw serial release format which is why they fight it with decompression)
The answer to all of comics’ problems is to only hire people who have had a pull list at some point in their lives, preferably recently.
>The world has changed but not the audience who buys comic books. The problem is most of the people working in comics divisions have never bought a floppy and don’t understand you can’t change the make up of that demographic (or thw serial release format which is why they fight it with decompression)
I think in addition to this, a lot of marketing people assume that the current buyers are locked in. And that they can stack minorities and other target audiences on top. They see marketing as an "and" type of thing. That they can sell to the old fans AND lesbians AND gays, etc. They don't even consider that they can alienate old consumers and drive them away.
We see this with a lot of entertainment companies. They are all chasing little girl dollars, mom dollars, lbgt dollars, etc. They just assume the men that were buying will always buy and there is no risk of losing market share by changing things to chase new demographics.
Or hell, maybe I'm stupid and they've actually ran simulations and think 25% of men + 5% of women and %5 of gays is better than 30% of men only. Maybe they already know how many men buyers they will lose and it is less than half of the new demographics they will gain
Because of Diana's meta-importance as the platonic ideal of female superheroes and her importance as a feminist icon she often has to get revised in order to be ideologically relevant. In other words, each writer goes onto her book asking themselves "what does being a woman mean to ME" and projects that onto her book and her setting.
I theorize that this is a contributing factor but ultimately the root problem with Wonder Woman books is just a simple lack of consistency. EVERYTHING about Wonder Woman is up for grabs if the writer can make a good enough case. Clay baby or has a dad? Either or. Where does she live? Boston? London? Theymscaria? All are true at one point. Does she have a secret identity? A day job? Or is she Wonder Woman full time? Yes. All of the above. How old is she? Anywhere from 5000 years old to 23, it depends on the run.
Compare this to Superman, her spear counterpart: >Alien, Metropolis, Early 30s.
Diana is a shifting character build on a foundation that's equally shifty. And that's just not a good way to make a long running franchise.
I will say this is just a DC problem as a whole. They only say “everything is canon” because neither they’d writers or, more importantly, their editors read comics and never did. So the writers have carte blanche to avoid having editors “bully them” about shit they only wiki-ed anyway.
That’s why:
The world has changed but not the audience who buys comic books. The problem is most of the people working in comics divisions have never bought a floppy and don’t understand you can’t change the make up of that demographic (or thw serial release format which is why they fight it with decompression)
The answer to all of comics’ problems is to only hire people who have had a pull list at some point in their lives, preferably recently.
is right. >The answer to all of comics’ problems is to only hire people who have had a pull list at some point in their lives, preferably recently.
At least then they’d understand why people care so much about canon rather than treating 60 dollars yearly to follow a single big 2 monthly as negligible.
Like most DC heroes she’s isn’t interesting beyond her origin story. The DCEU, had it been successful, should’ve gone in the direction of crossover/group projects like Justice League and Suicide Squad after the origin stories, unlike Marvels direction of giving every hero a trilogy where each movie is a 3 act slopfest that ends with a cgi battle. For example WW1984 had no reason 2 exist, Shazam 2 also. Doing another Justice League in that time would’ve been smarter.
I was about to ask because that doesn't seem like a trait only DC heroes share. Superhero stories are almost always episodic in nature (which marks a stark contrast with the idea of a shared world but that's another whole can of worms) so it makes sense that the origin story is the strong point. After all it's their guiding light, the one point every new writer can draw from when looking for new ideas.
I never even got what this character's hook was supposed to be. She was conceived of as a feminist symbol and patriotic WWII hero/Writer's Thinly Disguised Fetish, but her premise has been redundant for the better part of a century. What's her identity then? Just a general-issue Greek mythological hero?
Because no one wants to admit she's a stupid b***h who only exists for breasts and ass. We're all waiting for The Rape of Wonder Woman. We all know it's coming. And when we get it, the wienertease will have served its purpose
Rape of Wonder Woman is something that should never happen and wouldn't be good anyways, but idiots would praise it for being 'dark, mature edgy and deep'
It took over an hour for him to respond. By contrast, it took you less than two minutes to reply when someone finally bit the bait. Guess you're the one "rushing" to get that epic trolling in, huh?
I want it to be fully illustrated. Wonder Woman's ahegao face on display. An internal monologue about how much she's enjoying it. And, best of all, I want her to retire pregnant to raise her rapist's baby.
Superman is an alien raised by humans, who has sworn to protect his new world.
Batman is a guy whose parents were killed by a crook, and so he vows to fight crime.
Wonder Woman is... ?
I don't know, "female superman?"
She's a woman from a secret island populated by women, and she happens to have super powers. This is a description, not a story. Because of that, WW becomes whatever the hell her current writer wants to make her.
Kind of ironic that one of her retconned origins happened to be that her mother molded her out of magic clay and brought her to life. WW is just as vague and featureless as clay.
>Wonder Woman is... ?
an Amazon princess who leaves her women-only island after a man crashes on it so she can return him to his world and be a champion of love and freedom against warmongers in man's world. Pay attention next time.
her core story is an Amazonian who realizes America Good and puts on the stars and stripes to fight the Germans and Japanese while fricking an American man. That's why the character was created and it's why she looks the way she does.
I would say only the animated universe gets good writers but that is mostly them pulling from the best stories from before 1989. And even that has petered out after justice league and batman beyond.
People absolutely hate to hear this truth but Wonder Woman is written best when she is an overt man hating feminist. Her being distrustful or feeling superior to all men is inherent to her concept.
The problem is that people either start as that and never resolve it or already have her trusting men which makes her boring. She can start as a misandrist and change into a person that is more trusting but people will never accept that.
>Her being distrustful or feeling superior to all men is inherent to her concept.
I think a bigger problem is that if she is written maturely and things are taken to their logical conclusion, she would mistrust men and look down on women not from her island. It would very much be like women from the congo or Africa or the Caribbean coming to the US and thinking American black women are mostly stupid buttholes. Or wealthy educated Asians/blacks/Mexicans looking down on people who act like racial stereotypes.
But people are not ready for a boondocks like wonder woman, where she points out how horrible men are to each other ...then takes women to task for their laziness and ultimate complicity in their suffering and the suffering of men.
>But people are not ready for a boondocks like wonder woman, where she points out how horrible men are to each other ...then takes women to task for their laziness and ultimate complicity in their suffering and the suffering of men.
Turns out you weren't ready for the boondocks either if you missed out how it blames "the man".
Perez and Rucka are the only ones who have done anything worth a frick with her in forty years. I honestly don't know what to do with Wonder Woman right now. Diana is cool but maybe just stop making Wonder Woman comics for a few years.
>fully embrace that Diana is into kink >make her a switch so you get the best of both worlds, the classic "oh no Wonder Woman is tied up" scenes as well as the "step on my face mommy" energy. >threesomes with Steve and Cheetah in homage to Marston's MFF situation >epic fantasy adventures drawing upon Greek mythology
there, I fixed Wonder Woman
Here are some of my Ideas >Lean into the Greeco-Roman aesthetic(make them the Daughters of Ares) >make the Amazons their own separate people instead the reincarnated souls of abused women >don't make them rape random guys, but have them be like gender specific Viltrumites, where they choose strong male warriors to be the fathers of their daughters
>Lean into the Greeco-Roman aesthetic(make them the Daughters of Ares)
I still don't understand why DC has never used that since it works even if Ares is still an antagonist since it gives the Amazons a sense of responsibility for his actions.
You could even bring in some of the social reform stuff by saying the growing impersonal brutality of war has made Ares even worse and Wonder Woman hopes that if the world becomes kinder maybe he eventually will as well.
I don't see how making the Amazons the daughters of Ares makes sense thematically. I get that they are in the mythology, but the whole with the Amazons is that they're blessed by the female goddesses of the pantheon.
I do like the idea of Ares and maybe Athena too becoming more cruel and callous as wars became larger and more formulaic.
I don't see how making the Amazons the daughters of Ares makes sense thematically. I get that they are in the mythology, but the whole with the Amazons is that they're blessed by the female goddesses of the pantheon.
I do like the idea of Ares and maybe Athena too becoming more cruel and callous as wars became larger and more formulaic.
skirt but only if it's reminiscent of Greek Pteruges
I think the Rebirth design did this well, makes her look armoured while still looking feminine
Perez ruined Wonder Woman. Nobody cares about ares or Greek shit. Bring back the dopey technology and go back to calling it paradise island.
If I had to work within the constraints of modern sensibilities, I'd have her be a mentor to other heroes, and her arc be about going from being an uncompromising zealot of occasionally deadly justice to being almost the Master Yoda Mother Bear of the Justice League for middle-tier supers.
Batman trains all of the humans who use gadgets.
Superman mentors all of the ultrahumans in worlds made of cardboard.
Wonder Woman trains the superhumans who can wipe out a dozen armed bank robbers without breaking a sweat but would get themselves killed if they tried to fight another super without a team or a plan.
Since Diana has been trained from birth to be a warrior, she doesn't have experience dealing with children, or non-Amazons. She expects them to be disciplined warriors like herself out of the gate, and expects them to fight with her level of brutality, not understanding that her upbringing was incredibly unique.
She'd be like Piccolo training a bunch of Gohans.
It would end the same way. You'll never be able to write Diana into barefoot pregnancy, but by the end, her grown students should eventually be happily handing off their children to her for training or even mere babysitting. She should be able to fight with one of her student's babies safely tucked under her arm, so thorough is her control.
90% of the people who claim to like this character only do so cause they think she's hot. This is still better than other female superheroes like Power Girl, Batgirl, or any of the X-girls where it's closer to 100%. Either way, nobody's reading her comics and nobody wants to write her. Seriously, what aspiring comic writer grows up saying "I want to write Wonder Woman"?
I liked all the weird tech stuff in the old Wonder Woman comics. Like Diana making the invisible jet herself and the Amazons having guns and going to space.
Wonder Woman Earth one isn't good aside from the art, but I do like that it used a bunch of the old goofy stuff.
See Diana CAN be pretty evil, especially in all those bad timelines where for whatever reason going evil corresponds with her jumping on Superman's dick. Like Injustice. Or the one where Superman killed her on the spot for some other shit. Or the Dark Knight series. And YES, it absolutely counts as a bad end. It's just that even then Diana goes for a very banal, uninteresting, petty form of evil.
Because DC is fricking terrified of embracing Wonder Woman's sexual side when her entire character as conceived by Marston is a super-woman from a pacifist society rehabilitating supervillains through loving dominance. So that's why we get all of these gay takes where Wonder Woman is either a sword-swinging Xena knock-off or super edgy shit like Azzarello.
Christopher Priest unironically had the closest idea as to how Wonder Woman should be written with that one story where a dictator says he'll stop doing evil shit if Wonder Woman has sex with him.
at this point I'm fully convinced only a pedophile could write a compelling wonder woman series, all she has been for the last years is either a plot device for superman/batman or a soapbox for writer's attempt to politicize their troon fetishes
She was originally written by a guy with two wives who believed that women were inherently superior to men and that bondage was the key to world peace or something.
They need to embrace the core concept of the character, comment on how silly it is, and then insert some meaningful message. That seems to be the formula for a lot of good revivals of older characters.
Trying to make her a feminist icon isnt going to make for a unique and interesting character. Play into the utter insanity of the original concept a bit and you have something more unique.
Marston was an academic feminist and academic feminism has always and continued be a cesspit of neuroticism and unhinged fetishism dolled up in a lab coat.
Where as if you asked the laymen your family or neighbors etc what they think feminism is you'd likely come away thinking it was a new age take on chivalry just how men and women should act around each other and nothing more.
Wonder woman is a feminist icon because she is exactly what a feminist icon would look like warts and all.
And if anything the Marston's old works in feminist literature might even be considered more on the grounded end by todays standards.
call me a moronic power level gay but they really really really should stop pretending that she's a god on par with Superman, both because it never amounts to anything and because it never fits what she does outside of power scaling. None of her villains are that way either. She's a street-leveler/mid-tier who's threatened by bullets, and that's fine.
Wonder Woman is a bad character, and to make matters worse she has a vocal minority of """"fans"""" that think she should never be altered at all because she's an LGBTQGBBQ+ icon, making it impossible to fix her. Grant Morrison tried and couldn't do shit with her. At this point she only has a comic so that DC gets to keep the IP.
If you think about it, Wonder Woman is the most useless member of the league. >She's not the smartest. >not the best with technology. >not the strongest >It's not the fastest. >not the best swimmer. >It's not the most versatile. >not the best detective. >She is almost useless in space and at sea. >doesn't know anything about magic.
and anyone can use greek weapons, it also doesn't help that she always chooses the more violent option.
A third of these are "she's not a genius", nobody gives a frick about fighting the handful of low-tier villains who operate underwater.
By these standards Cyborg or Mr. Terrific makes Batman redundant and useless.
>is not the most versatile
that's where you're wrong
she's not the best at individual skills but she is the most versatile because she has most of them
also the lasso is useful if J'onn is not in the team
Adam Warren writing her as a bandage bawd who subconsciously wants to lose and be defeated and tied up, but who can't find anyone strong enough to defeat her unironically would be a good fit for writing Diana.
MAPgays were literially made up here on Cinemaphile by /misc/tards to turn people against the LGBT. Pedophiles exist, but the whole idea of them being politically organized and part of the LGBT community is *literially* a load of crap minted right here as a prank.
From thr beginning the gay movement was about legalizing pedos. They have books and pamphlets in the 60s talking about their strategy to normalize pedophilia. Dr John money was a pedo who encouraged pedophilia. Harvey Milk the gay politician famously had underage boyfriends
>Harvey Milk the gay politician famously had underage boyfriends
Bro everyone in the 60s and 70s was fricking 16 year olds. I’m kinda sick of you zoomers acting like this is odd. It used to be relatively common. Not something people were proud of but it wasn’t considered pedophilia (and definitionally isn’t).
I have no need to, you didn’t engage with the point I made and I have no knowledge of who he even is. Apparently he wrote gay shit, I’m sure you’re super proud of knowing who he is.
I agree with you that having sex with teens as an adult is not the same as pedophilia, though I think that it's still pretty skeezy once you're in your late 20s. That doesn't change the fact that there's a significant movement within queer theory and some parts of LGBT activism that wants to push down the age of consent and classify pedophilia as a sexuality. And while I commend LGBT activists for condemning it, I don't think they are being logical or consistent in doing so, as long as they embrace queer theory at least.
In the TV show Wonder Girl is viewed as a 15 year old (although it's uncertain if she really is, she could be way older like the other Amazons), and in the episodes she appears there's always some platonic stuff with guys in their early 20s and nobody cared or cares
Except that's not true. NAMBLA was involved with some of the early organization but the LGBT community did the based thing and dropped them the moment they didn't need that organization anymore. NAMBLA and MAPs are different anyway.
The rest is bullshit conservacucks made up because they know their chance of getting to stroke their murder-boners on the LGBT is fading quickly and they think if they can trick the normies into thinking Pedos are in with the LGBT they can keep stroking for their kill-nuts a little longer.
And good on the LGBT organizations for dropping NAMBLA, though I seriously question why they needed to team up with them in the first place.
But John Money, Michel Foucault, and many, many other prominent activist figures are not just made up by conservatives. They're real and they are responsible for where the LGBT activist community is now.
What are the ideal/best WW runs? I've always liked the idea of using her as DC's Thor, but I don't know what actual fans of the character want for her.
how come she's always a stand out character in the animated movies and her 2009 movie is still one of the best DC has put out, and yet her modern live-action appearances are all dogshit?
People got mad about Azzarello so they've been playing it safe in the post-nu52 era
But Azzarello was great?
I agree, I'm saying the controversy he caused resulted in them hiring writers who were not great
It was a mid elseworld that people keep insisting should be main continuity.
It would be mid by the standards of fantasy novels. As far as capeshit goes, it was god-tier.
......um no. That's like saying The Divine+ The Wicked is god-tier
Yes. But Claybabygays are like Halgays, would probably had called in a bomb threat because the Wonder Woman they grew up to and wanked off too was too different.
>Claybabygays are like Halgays
If only, then we'd have that origin back.
How does "wrote bad reviews" and "stopped buying the book" the same as "called in bomb threats" and "continually harassed the creators at cons"?
A big chunk of Wondy fans are online lesbians who didn't appreciate Amazons being portrayed as rapist psychopaths
Amazons have always been horribly writer, its either men making them super models who hate men or female writers projecting their idealized society on them, at least azzarello tried to write them with some thought put in, rather then petty politics.
Don't forget female writers turning them into rapebait. Yes Gail Simone, that rape camp in Secret Six gave me a chubby. No, it added absolutely nothing good to the Amazon lore when significant parts of the tribe seriously considered suicide after what happened to them after Amazons Attack!
wait what?
Look up the Secret Six runs. God, the more I read into Amazonshit the more I find new, novel reasons to hate it.
okay what happens though
RAPE CAMP
RAPE RAPE RAPE RAPE RAPE
Simone had the biggest grudge against Wondy in that arc.
No she had the biggest grudge against men who like Wonder Woman.
After Amazons Attack, when the Amazons declared war on mankind and lost, the Secret Six take a job for a slave camp and discover a bunch of Amazon POWs being kept. There’s at least an implication that the guards sexually abuse the prisoners in addition to forced labor. I haven’t read the run in a few years but that’s what I remember about the arc.
they get sold as sex slaves too
one characters states they were gonna be sold to fat businessmen and sheiks
i know
it was hot
>always been horribly written
Since Perez, sure.
The concept of Wonder Woman as a "feminist" hero has always fascinated me. her creation was influenced by the fetishistic and pseudointellectual views of her creator(William Marston). Wonder Woman really shouldn't exist beyond that one guy's writing. Despite this due to circumstances she was basically "appropriated" by feminists who embraced her as a heroine and icon of female strength and women's rights
Women latch on to anything that makes them feel important
Marston and H. G. Peter were linked to first wave feminism and suffragettes
>Marston and Peter were peers and supporters of the suffragettes and feminists of the early 20th century. Marston — an extended family member to birth control activists Margaret Sanger and Ethel Byrne — often wrote, lectured, and taught in favor of equality for women, and Peter and his wife Adonica Fulton often drew editorial cartoons in supportive magazines,[11] such as Judge,[12] which featured "The Modern Woman" page from 1912 to 1917.
>etta just casually stuffing her face as diana assaults a dude
lmao, based
The problem with modern day Wonder Woman is she’s divorced from her origin. In classic comics by Marston Diana is a very soft figure - her main tools are her lasso and her gauntlets. She’s not a warrior with a sword or shield - she’s a motherly figure who protects with her bracers and subdues people with her lasso. This is based on Marston’s giga based sex life, but the truth is Diana’s actual weapon is her lasso. Reading all comics, Diana in terms of temperament is more like…Snow White or Betty boop. She’s kind of a motherly fussy figure who shows up and fixes things with the power of love and kindness. She’s very much a messianic figure who values empathy and kindness over violence.
I don’t know when, but eventually Diana was turned into little more than a sword and shield warrior woman. When her lasso stopped being her main tool, Diana lost her original intent as being someone who solved conflicts nonviolently and peacefully with the power of love, and became more of a killer, which is why she’s always stuck in an identity crisis now. Her masculine qualities were valued over her feminine qualities. But the truth is, Diana’s feminine qualities were what makes her likable - classic Diana reminds me of magical girl shows and Disney princesses, which are what actually sell well to a demographic of young girls.
>I don’t know when
I’m not baiting when I say that despite his run being entertaining Perez killed Wonder Woman. Post crisis she became a Greco-Roman warrior.
I’ve heard Perez mentioned in this thread a lot of times. What did he do?
Ripped out all the non-mythological aspects of the Amazons and replaced their techno fantasy with modern fantasy Greek mythology. A bunch of other things too, like removing classic supporting cast and starting the notion that WW needs to be in a relationship with Superman. It's a good run, but in hindsight it was detrimental to future development in some aspects.
Clark at least had his entire upbringing as a normal person so he gets it. Bruce should barely be functional when dealing with others.
It's based on the movie Cheetah.
>Clark at least had his entire upbringing as a normal person so he gets it. Bruce should barely be functional when dealing with others.
Bruce should come off as borderline autistic given that his butler was his main source of social contact for years. His world journey for ninja training doesn't explain his fake ladies man persona.
It would be more realistic that his fake Bruce side was like Zap from Futurama. Just kind of clueless try hard that scores mad puss because of money and status. Which would be pretty realistic given how mega wealthy people with shitty childhoods act.
Him being a naturally charming and good natured man that ladies love is probably one of the more fantasy parts of batman.
Bruce Wayne is functionally a schizoid, but they don’t have any real issues with being socially adept. Bruce didn’t go Batman until his 20’s, that’s plenty of time to be at least superficially functional.
I think another issue is the fact that at least in the west, women do have a semblance of equality and have their own voices and opinions, her all female society is now just a bunch of Immortal LARPers who aren't really women in the sense they aren't human beings. and are completely disconnected from the experiences of regular women.
>completely disconnected from the experiences of regular .
This is most super stuff
yeah but Superman, Batman, and Spider-Man for example all grew up in normal society and at least nominally are supposed to deal with relatable issues.
Relatable issues like:
Being in the top 10 richest people on earth and being able to learn faster than any other human alive
Having the strength and speed of a god
Being amazingly smart and the strength of 100 men
The stories where normal people resent, are jealous and mistrust them for petty ignorant reasons are probably the most realistic. People are shitty. Superman is better than the average human if only because he just doesn't kill 100s of shitty people everyday
Superman has the failings of essentially hiding himself and sort of blithely ignoring existential questions about himself (doesn’t his existence question the small town faith of the Kents?) as well as more or less being 24/7 aware of any crap going on around him and he has to at some point make a moral choice to let bad things happen, or at least not hold himself accountable. Clark’s world would be dim if he were the only superhero around
It would be interesting to see an adult take on superman without it being edgy. Superman is the way he is because it's a story for 8 year olds before the invention of personal computers.
Trying to retroactively explain why supes or batman arw the way they are using a modern adult sensibility is probably ultimately futile. A what if that restarts things and sees how they play out would be better.
Though we'll never get that because there isn't a good way to explain why superman would tolerate the last 80 years of politics from the three biggest superpowers.
Marvel gets around that by making most of their superheros flawed dumbasses with only 1 or 2 powers. But even they write themselves into corners by having so many world ending powered mutants.
>Marvel gets around that by making most of their superheros flawed dumbasses with only 1 or 2 powers. But even they write themselves into corners by having so many world ending powered mutants.
It is interesting that most all knowing beings in marvel books want to destroy humanity and it is only beings of limited perception that think humans are worth it. Then the frick ups usually only manage to save humanity via teamwork and luck.
Maybe the writers are trying to tell us something. That it would only be rational to hate humans if you knew all the fires evil men have their irons in.
>Though we'll never get that because there isn't a good way to explain why superman would tolerate the last 80 years of politics from the three biggest superpowers.
>Maybe the writers are trying to tell us something. That it would only be rational to hate humans if you knew all the fires evil men have their irons in
Samegayging to sperg your totally mature views on humanity is certainly a mature thing to do. I’m sure your superhero fan fics are just wonderful works of art. Tell me, do you wear a lot of purple, do you live in a society?
>Though we'll never get that because there isn't a good way to explain why superman would tolerate the last 80 years of politics from the three biggest superpowers.
The reason it couldn’t work is because you insufferable homosexual manchildren always say shit like this IMMEDIATELY when bringing up superheroe comics for adults.
CAPE COMICS ARENT MEANT TO STROKE YOUR CABLE NEWS AND SOCIAL MEDIA ROTTED BRAINS
EVERY SINGLE TIME YOU homosexual ASS MAN CHILDREN TURN “SUPERHERO BUT FOR ADULTS” INTO “WHY ARENT THEY JUST GOD DICTATORS INSTEAD”.
THATS FRICKING EDGY YOU INSUFFERABLE homosexual YOU COULDNT AVOID BEING AN EDGY INSUFFERABLE homosexual FOR SIX SENTENCES AFTER SAYING IT WOULD BE INTERESTING TO HAVE AN ADUKT TAKE ON HIM THAT WASNT EDGY.
FRICK YOU
Superheroes, not just Superman, are an inherently childish concept. But trying to make them “adult” or “mature” is genuinely the most juvenile thing I can imagine.
This.
Young girls like swords and bows too, just don't overdo it. At least putting a bit of Greek warrior into her characterization gave her something. Magical girl Wonder Woman has no appeal to anyone older than eight.
>Magical girl Wonder Woman
Dudes would be down as long as she is cute hot and she fights cool badies. Sailor moon got a lot of milage out of lots of fights and showing a little leg
Sailor Moon is A. explicitly targeted at 8 year olds, and B. has no fights. I'm not exaggerating. Every other fight is just like the villain blasts them, they go kywaaaa they fall down there's no background and what they're being blasted with is usually vague as well. Almost none of the attacks in Sailor Moon are even drawn lol you just see speed lines around the girls and they make noises that indicate they're being hit by something.
One of the villains of the penultimate arc, I'm not joking, has the power to make the room uncomfortably hot but less hot than a hot day. This isn't presented as a gag, this is a serious issue for the team. They overcome it by having Pluto come in, because Pluto is used to running on hot days due to training for a marathon. This is not a series really built around combat.
You're aware that sailor moon has shows, movies and games with actual attacks, right?
>One of the villains of the penultimate arc, I'm not joking, has the power to make the room uncomfortably hot but less hot than a hot day. This isn't presented as a gag, this is a serious issue for the team. They overcome it by having Pluto come in, because Pluto is used to running on hot days due to training for a marathon. This is not a series really built around combat.
just like jojo
A magical girl inspired series--maybe set in 1940s-- where Diana gets to defeat everyone with the power of friendship and fists (+lasso) could do very well.
Write her as a serious ladybug type where you can have her in decent fights as a superhero/magical girl and convoluted romance stories to get the male and female audience.
With the Greek mythology aesthetics you can even take inspo from saint Seiya
That would be sooooo good
>saint Seiya
Better have a b***h'n opening
They really don't "A" young girl may like swords, bows and all that but she will almost never find a girl friend to talk about it with, meanwhile there's a near endless sea of women who've kept to their Magical girl phase well into adulthood.
who the frick was watching the Hunger Games then?
>appropriated" by feminists who embraced her as a heroine
> fictional character made into an icon
Americans are in a league of their own...
Wonder Woman was made in the 40's and reflects how women acted during this time period. However in the 60's when women were campaigning for greater rights she shifted to be more of a feminist icon. Now that women have similar rights to men being a feminist icon hinders what they can do with her as she needs to act as a moral center.
Azzarello's run wasn't a WW comic, it was a mean-spirited parody.
Man, remember when Highfather thought that Zeus turning into a baby would somehow kill the Source?
Or when Orion showed up to punch a baby only to end up flirting badly with Diana and get his junk nearly torn off?
Or when Hera learned absolutely nothing from her friendship arc with Diana and tried to backstab her?
Or when THE FIRST BORN, Zeus' OC donut steel son, showed up and started bodying Olympians?
Or when the last page of the run was literally Diana crying alone on the beach when Zeus just abandoned baby form and abandoned her to reclaim his throne?
why are you putting Finch stuff here?
Tying the New Gods with the Olympians has great potential
It doesn't
It did. Make things more cohesive
Explain
Orion in particular seemed really out of character. They couldn't figure out what to do with him so they just wrote him like the stereotypical 80's jock bully from a John Hughes film.
This is such a good way of summarizing why Azzarello's stuff doesn't work for many, especially those who fell for a different version of Diana.
Glad you're not getting your "good writers", then.
>the number of responses
Hoo boy lol
Hal is based, demigodess Wondy is based. The problem with Kyle is he just sucked.
If you're not pissing off "that" group you're not doing Dubdubs right.
I liked this version the most, especially her heavy chest.
Pretend for a second you're a good writer working for DC. Why the frick would you waste your time on Wonder Woman?
Thread could have ended here. The problem is really much more fundamental than any specific writer's take.
You're just never, ever going to find a good writer whose dream job is writing Wonder Woman these days at DC, AND who can satisfy feminists, grecoboos and cheesecake fetishists at the same time.
>Why the frick would you waste your time on Wonder Woman?
Because I want to frick her.
For having Clay Mann doing sexy interiors for my series
This anon has a great point. Unless she was like your first cartoon waifu, why would you pick her?
She IS one of my first cartoon waifu now that you say that.
Give me her and I'll write her in a story full of Saint Seiya tropes and characters
Nobody knows what to even do with her and when they do, it's never agreed upon
They just need to embrace that people only care about her for porn and do an X rated sex adventure story with her
how her current book reached 800 issues is still beyond me
Rebirth's bi-weekly release sped things up
It didn’t, it’s like 60 in, the 800 are all time. That’s less than 10 per year lol
I AM ONCE AGAIN CALLING FOR THE RETVRN OF THE KING
Is he still alive? Hope he is and doing well.
he had lost his home and was living out of his car in 2018.
Did he make it though that business with all the stuff and things we were doing for a couple years?
Rucka's run was a few years ago though
>inb4 i-it's not good
It wasn't good. His first run was a letdown too. Rucka on WW seems like it should work on paper, yet it just doesn't.
I don't care what anyone say. It was pretty good. But the first run was much better
The inspiration for this art was this Playboy Germany pic - https://images2.imgbox.com/3e/43/mz7pKXX0_o.jpeg
Using half of his run just to retcon out Azz's run was a waste of time and turning Cheetah into another "misunderstood female villain" is dumb.
Male Lesbian Greg Rucka?
The very same future transbian.
Leotard>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
WW default outfit sucks but any time they try and give her a new one people lose their shit
Big issue is she's never had a true establishing run/writer that stuck in the public consiousness but is kept at the forefront because she's token woman for the jla. That and her fanbase being a three way split of feminists, grecoboos and cheesecake fetishists.
That being said you have occasional gems like Trinity and the taco whiz story where she pushes for actual self-reliance and advocacy. "Nut up or shut up" as a default stance would have made her a solid middleground between batman and supes.
Pic related as another example of that i guess. "Things are always gonna suck so you have to deal" isn't really a message capeshit readers want though.
>Big issue is she's never had a true establishing run/writer that stuck in the public consiousness
Nah I’d say specifically the problem is that there is that
PEREZ
And he ruined Wonder Woman. Took out all of the fun and whimsy and techno fantasy for mythology and warrior shit. It’s awful but women find it a more feminist take and so DC pushes that.
They’d genuinely love to turn the Amazon’s into the modern day bulldyke Spartans, just look at the new 52
Why is this shitty take so popular here nowadays?
it's just one person
Source? Because Cinemaphile always claims that it's only one guy when they don't like something.
Because what we’ve gotten recently is bad specifically because all it does is rely on hackeyed mythology. It’s awful, there hasn’t been a good Wonder Woman ongoing since the 90s.
No, it’s definitely not. Even without this loser larping
90s Wonder Woman comics are some of her worst and praising WML's run so much is strictly a Cinemaphile meme
>waaaah everyone I don't like is one guy
Cope Perez dick rider
I don't even particularly care about it
>No, it’s definitely not.
b***h you've been b***hing about Perez multiple times in this thread.
Not just me.
Sure anon.
Azz' run was fine even with it heavily tied to mythology so I'd say her latest runs sucking is a deeper, wider spanning problem.
>Loses powers when tied up
>Brings rope with them
It's a bit strange for a hero to bring their weakness into battle with them.
Why does she act soo smug as a kid?
Frick off pedophile
>Every WW is infested with pedophiles that spam the same 10 images
What happened
Why samegay and sperg like this after anon posted one image? Go back
Frick off pedophile
1. I’m not attracted to children
2. I’m not that anon
3. You’re being a massive fricking homosexual fighting the surf
4. You’re like a newbie.
5. Stream your suicide or go back or accept reality. You came here, we didn’t ask for you.
neh, he right though, MAPgays along with the rest of the basedflake rainbow specialgenders can frick off from Cinemaphile.
MAPgays were literially made up here on Cinemaphile by /misc/tards to turn people against the LGBT. Pedophiles exist, but the whole idea of them being politically organized and part of the LGBT community is *literially* a load of crap minted right here as a prank.
lgbtrannies do that themselves
so, since it was announced has there been any news on the Wonder Woman game? any news at all?
I know it's not really related to the OP but I didn't see any other Wondie threads
As far as I know not really. I was honestly expecting something to be shown in these recent games shows.
I see
I'm really just praying it isn't shit, GK was such a disappointment and Suicide Squad looks significantly worse
That art is rough, just look at the shadows fighting each other
They are waiting for the new synergy directives to drop
She desperately needs an animated show. If she'd had obe concurrently with Batman and Superman way more people would have a better understanding of her lore and villains.
except for all the changes they did to her lore and villains in the DCAU lol
Such as?
>Wonder Woman leaves Paradise Island because of the alien invasion, stealing her apparatus and running away
>Steve Trevor was a guy from WWII she met in a time travel adventure
>She is Hades' daughter
>Hades is an Ares replacement
>Cheetah is a human-cat hybrid scientific experiment
>She is Hades' daughter
Wish they kept this. This was based.
a hero is only as great as his main villain.
>Batman has the Joker.
>Superman has Lex Luthor.
>Wonderwoman has... Cheetah... yeah...
no one can take you seriously when your biggest enemy is an overfed cat.
Not many writers are interested in writing her in general, and the few that do are split between people with apparently absolutely abhorrent takes or people desperate to write "their" Wonder Woman.
>Batman has a clown
>Superman has Jeff Bezos
Her main villain is usually split between Ares and Circe, casual.
Circe has been turned into a girlboss frenemy, it's problematic to have a female villain actually act like a villain nowadays!!
>Circe has been turned into a girlboss frenemy,
Well so has Cheetah, she even looks like Tigra now.
Cheetah sort of works as a frenemy. Circe should be straight up evil.
None of the Cheetah's work as a frenemy. Giganta worked because at the end of the day she's an overgrown bully.
Wrong, Cheetah worked best when she's evil Lara Croft.
>complaining about Circe the girlboss frenemy
>not also complaining that Rebirth retconned Ares into never having done anything wrong at all
It's kind of funny that even the character designed as a designated new archnemesis for her has just left Wonder Woman behind too, judging from Grail showing up in Dark Crisis not really giving a shit about her specifically. She's stuck with Cheetah as her designated arch because the writers don't wan to admit they're not smart enough to come up with a way for her to beat enemies more competent and powerful than Cheetah.
Actually scratch that, at the MOST recent they turned Cheetah back into a friend again because of a vax that toned down her furry shit into being more catgirl-like, and now Diana's back to brawling with gods. And uh, her own past memories or some shit. Seriously the new run of Wonder Woman comics keeps going "look how shitty the Wonder Woman continuity is!" and then not really doing anything to help it, the writers genuinely can't think of any solution here, just to point and laugh at the problem.
No one liked Grail to start with.
I will always be amused she really lived up to be as edgy as her design implied, though.
Grail doesn't work as a WW villain and sucks in general. If she has to stay around, I'd move her to Cyborg or Jon Kent's rogue gallery. Cyborg needs less robotic villains and has a connection to the New Gods via his tech. Jon doesn't have a rogue gallery yet.
Who she?
>a hero is only as great as his main villain.
This is a moronic take.
>a hero is only as great as his main villain
So that's why the Flash is the best
It's really baffling to me that some people are Wonder Woman fans because of the JL cartoon, considering she's easily the weakest character
If she did get her own animated series, it would probably be hijacked by Batman and Superman cameos and would end up being another Justice League show by default because the producers would be worried that she couldn't carry the show on her own.
She’s a female character so she’s expected to be written by female writers these days and it’s led to her worst era ever.
The problem with all female characters is that they’re treated like they have to be “for women/girls” and so they specifically do shit that turns male readers off.
I mean in the last 5 years WW is nothing more than a BIPOC/LGBTWQAEADA/Feminist fantasy.
>She’s a female character so she’s expected to be written by female writers these days and it’s led to her worst era ever.
On its face, there isn't much wrong with that. The problem is that most women that want to write comics are fricking weirdos that were writing wynx club invader Zim cross over lesbian fanfics in high school and couldnt give two shits about wonder woman.
The best thing that could happen to wonder woman would be to hand her to a male writer that thought she was hot in his teens but now has daughters and wants to make something that they or his grandkids could enjoy. Something between attractive and wholesome.
If they could find a woman that can write that way, great, but I think those types of women skip writing for comics entirely and instead try to get into lifetime movies and sitcoms.
The other anon said it, the problem with comics is they’re written by people who’ve never bought them and don’t know what they’re supposed to be.
I don't know about that, the British invasion for example produced some of the greatest comics in the history of these companies and most of those guys weren't raised on comics.
>most of these guys weren’t raised on comics
Untrue
And the British Invasion made mostly terrible comics for people who didn’t like capeshit anymore but didn’t want to grow up. Most of it didn’t sell as well as Morrison or millar either.
If you mean the brits like gayman and and moore they were very studious readers and students of the form and history.
I’d also add they had editors who were and understood the importance of telling them “no”. Editors now know less than every about the characters and history and don’t understand the reader because they never were one.
the most powerful voice in the creative room needs to the person most familiar with the character and fans. This is a business.
>Editors now know less than every about the characters and history and don’t understand the reader because they never were one.
Truth be told, the thing that is killing everything on co is student loan debt. Frickers lie about loving this comic and that cartoon because they have bills to pay. This drives a lot of people onto projects they don't really care about
I do mean Moore and Gaiman and the like.
Now that's the thing hurting the current state of these comics imo. And I do think it's the editors who should have been loving these characters from childhood, because ultimately it's up to them to shape their world. Even with the arguably sub-par writers Marvel and DC have on payroll currently, a good editor team should be able to bring the best out of them. Instead they just give the okay to anything and the results are apparent.
good writers want to wrote Batman and Superman or their own authorial stuff
I don’t think this is true. I think good writers want to write their favorites and DC wants them writing big books (if they’re good sellers particularly).
I think it’s just that in wonder woman’s case, in some ways a lot like black characters/writers, if you aren’t a woman you’re already walking on eggshells and if you don’t agree with making the Amazon’s masculine tough girls with a bunch of lesbian allusions or making Wonder Woman a tough girl neck snapper then you’re looked at as being condescending. But at the same time people who just want compassionate and fun Lynda Carter/pre-Perez wonder woman just tune out anything in which she’s even so much as holding a shield let alone wearing armor.
DC has a problem of letting writers and artists do whatever they want and when such different takes on characters exist it fractures the fandom and makes them antagonistic in some cases toward each other.
So between fan insanity and sociopolitical shit flinging it’s not worth it to write a female character, particularly well known ones - even and specifically wonder woman.
/thread
There is genuinely no other discussion point.
And then there's the bizarre case of Yara Flor, who was generally well liked upon her debut, that DC first decided to kill all promotion for and then apparently take her out of her original writer's hands and try to make her a bland Wonder Girl fill-in they just pretend has all kinds of wisdom and adventuring experience beyond her paltry solo and the Trials of the Amazons event you probably don't even know existed. And are really missing nothing of value by doing so.
Yara Flor was created for an event that wound up never happening which torpedoed any momentum and trajectory for the character from the outset. Getting backported to main continuity forced attention to be split with Nubia's ongoing push and coming after Artemis' gain in popularity, and the necessary deaging meant she was now a teen hero book and awkwardly plunged into the Wonder Girl role. Then no one read Trials of the Amazons (or really cared about the new Amazons), the writer changes, the book delays, and the plagiarism accusations buried Yara.
It had one delay. But I agree the moronic Nubia push was mostly what derailed yara. Along with the moronic editors not understanding that three fat Brazilian men in dresses aren’t their audience.
t. Actually bought the book and doesn’t rely on Twitter misinformation
The Nubia push genuinely pissed me off. Her Silver Age setup was a great place to use her as counter-commentary to Diana's ideals and provide an alternate viewpoint on the necessity of violence and alternate positions on feminism and gender relations. But instead we got another basic Amazon given an unwarranted importance in the narrative. Nubia's trajectory in modern comics feels like I'm reading a Phillipus story that was changed at the last minute.
Plagiarism accusations?
Jones had several pieces of her art noticed that appeared very much to be traced from other comic book art.
>But at the same time people who just want compassionate and fun Lynda Carter/pre-Perez wonder woman just tune out anything in which she’s even so much as holding a shield let alone wearing armor.
Nobody has a problem with her wearing armor on occasion. Shield is just stupid. Even in Perez' run she barely used it even when she went to Hades.
I mean when the armor is basically just a cute dress nobody is going to complain. And when she’s dressed in shit like the golden chicken armor at least it’s for show.
Her normal outfit should be mostly cloth.
Also what’s with the weird dot on her chest there?
This “art” is horrible. Costumes and designs look solid though.
Yeah, it was mainly a Dynamite book, but DC wasn't spending much money for the art on the main Wonder Woman '77 either
Art Looks better there, I like the color and overall line work. The design is horrible though, what a hideous outfit. She looks like one of those hippie gypsy chicks who thinks witches and horoscopes are real.
But idk who the character is supposed to be, I’m not familiar with the likeness.
It's too late to bring back the campy goofy Amazon stories of the golden age.
We can argue whether that's a good thing or a bad thing, but you can't deny that right now it's less likely to take off than DC cutting down on the number of Batman books being published every year.
>It's too late to bring back the campy goofy Amazon stories of the golden age.
No it isn’t just like it isn’t “too late” to make Jon Kent a kid again and too young to have a sexuality. I’d argue it’s the perfect time for both. You sound like an employee touting company lines.
>We can argue whether that's a good thing or a bad thing
It’s undoubtedly a bad thing.
>You sound like an employee touting company lines.
And you sound like a boomer in denial that most people do not, in fact, want goofy Wonder Woman. If they did 1984 would have sold better.
Nobody can even AGREE what Wonder Woman should be. She's not part of the "Trinity" because she sells well, she's part of it because the writers thought a girl looks good on a team with two guys and she got grandfathered in there as a "key member" who conveniently never does anything as important as Batman or Superman.
>But JLD-
She spent most of JLD getting her ass kicked and needing OTHER VILLAINS to bail her out, it was a dreadful performance for someone who may or may not still be Zeus' byblow with Hippolyta.
Which they still have NEVER addressed kek
>And you sound like a boomer in denial that most people do not, in fact, want goofy Wonder Woman. If they did 1984 would have sold better.
Yes, the problem with WW84 was the lighthearted tone, not the awful script
>And you sound like a boomer in denial that most people do not, in fact, want goofy Wonder Woman.
I’m 30 bro, you hustle just sound like a gods honest LGBTQ homosexual. Tell me I’m wrong.
That’s because DC editors are all valley girls and gayfolk who spend too much time on twitter and think the three Brazilians who complained about jones writing the book were ever going to buy their comics.
I own every yara flor issue, hers were the only future state comics I bought. It was solid as frick. Great new character.
But I guess she wasn’t ugly or miserable or ragebaiting enough like the rest of them.
>Waah waah WAAAH
I'll tell you that the first Gail Simone WW movie turned a profit even with marketing cope calculations taken into account. And I'll also tell you that you don't actually have a damn clue how to actually make it happen.
>Great new character
On that we agree, though. Absolutely horrendous how that one Lazarus Planet writer made her a generic smug b***h instead of being endearingly brusque and earnest under her original writer. That's not the worst part though, the worst part is one of her briefly consistent features was having a highly negative opinion of Amazons/Themyscira but now she's being shoehorned as a Wonder Girl even though she should have no real investment in the position.
>If they did 1984 would have sold better.
Wonder Woman 1984 was the best selling dvd/blu-ray of 2021
I'm gonna be honest... Wonder Woman peaked here
The trend seems to be to assign female characters to female writers. Aside from Louise Simonson, I can't think of a decent female comic writer. Every woman assigned to scribe WW has been awful.
I liked the Perez run from years ago, and the decision to make WW Zeus' daughter cements her as a person instead of that golem nonsense.
The problem is that WW is defined by committee instead of vision. She was pretty good in the JL animated series, but in the comics, there are too many suits calling the shots.
>I liked the Perez run from years ago
Then you’re not a true WW fan. Perez ruined WW forever.
>Aside from Louise Simonson, I can't think of a decent female comic writer.
Jo Duffy's run on the Star Wars comics back in the day was pretty fun.
>I can't think of a decent female comic writer
My favorite comics written by women are all indie stuff like Persepolis whose writers never crossed over into the big two.
>and the decision to make WW Zeus' daughter cements her as a person instead of that golem nonsense.
No it doesn't, it makes her generic. The clay creation origin story actually was unique.
>She was pretty good in the JL animated series
No she wasn't, almost 100% of her personality in that show was being an angry c**t and wanting Batman's wiener. It contributed to the ruining of her character's perception.
Source of wonder woman fanart
https://twitter.com/serafleur/status/1672620153715015682 serafleur
https://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/6430711
>why can't she get good writers?
That subjective
She's had good writers. The character's just boring as frick.
>in the snyderverse Darkseid's invasion of earth is stopped by Ares
can dorkseid ever recover from getting axed by /our guy/ Ares?
Why did the kill the entire pantheon pre-movie? And then kill Diana's entire supporting cast before movie 2?
because they're stupid
Well from 1938 to about the late 80s DC was pumping out Superman stuff nonstop. Then Burton and Miller happened and we find ourselves in a sea of Batman content that will presumably last another decade or two. After that who knows? Maybe Wondy will get her time as DCs cash cow starting in the 2030s?
That would require women and gay men becoming much larger segments of her money spending audience. Most money spending Wonder Woman fans are still by and large straight men.
The world has changed™
Popular adaptations used to increase the sales of comic books and made the whole IP a "mania"
Wonder Woman's first movie was a hit but it didn't help the sales of the comic books one bit
The world has changed but not the audience who buys comic books. The problem is most of the people working in comics divisions have never bought a floppy and don’t understand you can’t change the make up of that demographic (or thw serial release format which is why they fight it with decompression)
The answer to all of comics’ problems is to only hire people who have had a pull list at some point in their lives, preferably recently.
>The world has changed but not the audience who buys comic books. The problem is most of the people working in comics divisions have never bought a floppy and don’t understand you can’t change the make up of that demographic (or thw serial release format which is why they fight it with decompression)
I think in addition to this, a lot of marketing people assume that the current buyers are locked in. And that they can stack minorities and other target audiences on top. They see marketing as an "and" type of thing. That they can sell to the old fans AND lesbians AND gays, etc. They don't even consider that they can alienate old consumers and drive them away.
We see this with a lot of entertainment companies. They are all chasing little girl dollars, mom dollars, lbgt dollars, etc. They just assume the men that were buying will always buy and there is no risk of losing market share by changing things to chase new demographics.
Or hell, maybe I'm stupid and they've actually ran simulations and think 25% of men + 5% of women and %5 of gays is better than 30% of men only. Maybe they already know how many men buyers they will lose and it is less than half of the new demographics they will gain
They try to get her a female writer and there are almost no good female writers
Why did she never get her own cartoon
Because of Diana's meta-importance as the platonic ideal of female superheroes and her importance as a feminist icon she often has to get revised in order to be ideologically relevant. In other words, each writer goes onto her book asking themselves "what does being a woman mean to ME" and projects that onto her book and her setting.
I theorize that this is a contributing factor but ultimately the root problem with Wonder Woman books is just a simple lack of consistency. EVERYTHING about Wonder Woman is up for grabs if the writer can make a good enough case. Clay baby or has a dad? Either or. Where does she live? Boston? London? Theymscaria? All are true at one point. Does she have a secret identity? A day job? Or is she Wonder Woman full time? Yes. All of the above. How old is she? Anywhere from 5000 years old to 23, it depends on the run.
Compare this to Superman, her spear counterpart:
>Alien, Metropolis, Early 30s.
Diana is a shifting character build on a foundation that's equally shifty. And that's just not a good way to make a long running franchise.
I will say this is just a DC problem as a whole. They only say “everything is canon” because neither they’d writers or, more importantly, their editors read comics and never did. So the writers have carte blanche to avoid having editors “bully them” about shit they only wiki-ed anyway.
That’s why:
is right.
>The answer to all of comics’ problems is to only hire people who have had a pull list at some point in their lives, preferably recently.
At least then they’d understand why people care so much about canon rather than treating 60 dollars yearly to follow a single big 2 monthly as negligible.
Like most DC heroes she’s isn’t interesting beyond her origin story. The DCEU, had it been successful, should’ve gone in the direction of crossover/group projects like Justice League and Suicide Squad after the origin stories, unlike Marvels direction of giving every hero a trilogy where each movie is a 3 act slopfest that ends with a cgi battle. For example WW1984 had no reason 2 exist, Shazam 2 also. Doing another Justice League in that time would’ve been smarter.
I say DC heroes but I meant heroes in general
I was about to ask because that doesn't seem like a trait only DC heroes share. Superhero stories are almost always episodic in nature (which marks a stark contrast with the idea of a shared world but that's another whole can of worms) so it makes sense that the origin story is the strong point. After all it's their guiding light, the one point every new writer can draw from when looking for new ideas.
I never even got what this character's hook was supposed to be. She was conceived of as a feminist symbol and patriotic WWII hero/Writer's Thinly Disguised Fetish, but her premise has been redundant for the better part of a century. What's her identity then? Just a general-issue Greek mythological hero?
>her premise has been redundant for the better part of a century
just like feminists IRL
Because no one wants to admit she's a stupid b***h who only exists for breasts and ass. We're all waiting for The Rape of Wonder Woman. We all know it's coming. And when we get it, the wienertease will have served its purpose
Rape of Wonder Woman is something that should never happen and wouldn't be good anyways, but idiots would praise it for being 'dark, mature edgy and deep'
aww, look at you rushing to defend your prostitute of a waifu
It took over an hour for him to respond. By contrast, it took you less than two minutes to reply when someone finally bit the bait. Guess you're the one "rushing" to get that epic trolling in, huh?
>him
anon, please
>We're all waiting for The Rape of Wonder Woman
Kek, just imagine the shitstorm. I wanna see that now
I want it to be fully illustrated. Wonder Woman's ahegao face on display. An internal monologue about how much she's enjoying it. And, best of all, I want her to retire pregnant to raise her rapist's baby.
What's Wonder Woman's core story?
Superman is an alien raised by humans, who has sworn to protect his new world.
Batman is a guy whose parents were killed by a crook, and so he vows to fight crime.
Wonder Woman is... ?
I don't know, "female superman?"
She's a woman from a secret island populated by women, and she happens to have super powers. This is a description, not a story. Because of that, WW becomes whatever the hell her current writer wants to make her.
Kind of ironic that one of her retconned origins happened to be that her mother molded her out of magic clay and brought her to life. WW is just as vague and featureless as clay.
>Wonder Woman is... ?
an Amazon princess who leaves her women-only island after a man crashes on it so she can return him to his world and be a champion of love and freedom against warmongers in man's world. Pay attention next time.
her core story is an Amazonian who realizes America Good and puts on the stars and stripes to fight the Germans and Japanese while fricking an American man. That's why the character was created and it's why she looks the way she does.
And they should embrace that and stop pretending she's anything different.
DC will embrace that when Marvel embraces that Captain America is a proud patriot.
AKA not in decades.
i wish dc would write her as their thor, because they lack one, space warrior adventures would do her some good
They tried making Orion their Thor for a very brief moment in time
>why can't she get good writers?
Why can't any dc comic get good writers?
I would say only the animated universe gets good writers but that is mostly them pulling from the best stories from before 1989. And even that has petered out after justice league and batman beyond.
I just think she’s neat
what runs are worth reading? Any classic storylines I'm missing?
>storylines
honestly, I don't know what to tell you. I liked Dead Earth but that might be more for DWJ's art than it being a representative story.
DWJ’s art is fricking hideous. I’m so sick of artists who overuse detail to make up for the fact that they can’t draw.
Well, do you have any Wonder Woman story suggestions then?
Byrnes run
People absolutely hate to hear this truth but Wonder Woman is written best when she is an overt man hating feminist. Her being distrustful or feeling superior to all men is inherent to her concept.
The problem is that people either start as that and never resolve it or already have her trusting men which makes her boring. She can start as a misandrist and change into a person that is more trusting but people will never accept that.
that's already flawed because if it need to be resolved then you have nothing afterwards
lets not act like we have Batman go through the exact same arc of trusting other people like 50 times
>Her being distrustful or feeling superior to all men is inherent to her concept.
I think a bigger problem is that if she is written maturely and things are taken to their logical conclusion, she would mistrust men and look down on women not from her island. It would very much be like women from the congo or Africa or the Caribbean coming to the US and thinking American black women are mostly stupid buttholes. Or wealthy educated Asians/blacks/Mexicans looking down on people who act like racial stereotypes.
But people are not ready for a boondocks like wonder woman, where she points out how horrible men are to each other ...then takes women to task for their laziness and ultimate complicity in their suffering and the suffering of men.
>But people are not ready for a boondocks like wonder woman, where she points out how horrible men are to each other ...then takes women to task for their laziness and ultimate complicity in their suffering and the suffering of men.
Turns out you weren't ready for the boondocks either if you missed out how it blames "the man".
It's always the man with dem homies
Like the R Kelly episode where Huey tries to figure out how this problem is caused by the white man.
Or in the episode with homie moments where the white guy remembers he's white and just walks away.
@137933728
Gr8b8m8ir88/8
The Wonder girls being perverts who follow Diana because of her ass is good.
Perez and Rucka are the only ones who have done anything worth a frick with her in forty years. I honestly don't know what to do with Wonder Woman right now. Diana is cool but maybe just stop making Wonder Woman comics for a few years.
I think DC can't do that for legal issues.
They stopped publishing Wonder Woman for a year in 1986, but maybe it can't be more than that
All the things people say about Superman being outdated, irrelevant, and boring applies more towards Wonder Woman than Superman.
Because good writers don't run her industry, ~~*they*~~ do.
skirt or leotard?
leotard all the way
Leotard or kys
skirt but only if it's reminiscent of Greek Pteruges
I think the Rebirth design did this well, makes her look armoured while still looking feminine
The battle skirt is the best ever redesign choice for a superheroine. I'll stand by that
The skirt made sales drop and she may never be in the top 10 again comics are for boys,
Leotard.
both
Skirt is superior
superior to pants, maybe
Topless wonder woman
She works better in moving mediums
>fully embrace that Diana is into kink
>make her a switch so you get the best of both worlds, the classic "oh no Wonder Woman is tied up" scenes as well as the "step on my face mommy" energy.
>threesomes with Steve and Cheetah in homage to Marston's MFF situation
>epic fantasy adventures drawing upon Greek mythology
there, I fixed Wonder Woman
Yeah feminists and twitter are not going to like your run anon.
Who cares what they want. They don't buy anything
Frick em
>threesomes with Steve and Cheetah in homage to Marston's MFF situation
Cheetah tries to steal Steve from Diana when she's still a villain only to become a throuple once she has her hee-face turn.
they both look hideous
I wonder which lesbian drew this and based cheetah on her ugly girlfriend
Here are some of my Ideas
>Lean into the Greeco-Roman aesthetic(make them the Daughters of Ares)
>make the Amazons their own separate people instead the reincarnated souls of abused women
>don't make them rape random guys, but have them be like gender specific Viltrumites, where they choose strong male warriors to be the fathers of their daughters
>Lean into the Greeco-Roman aesthetic(make them the Daughters of Ares)
I still don't understand why DC has never used that since it works even if Ares is still an antagonist since it gives the Amazons a sense of responsibility for his actions.
You could even bring in some of the social reform stuff by saying the growing impersonal brutality of war has made Ares even worse and Wonder Woman hopes that if the world becomes kinder maybe he eventually will as well.
I don't see how making the Amazons the daughters of Ares makes sense thematically. I get that they are in the mythology, but the whole with the Amazons is that they're blessed by the female goddesses of the pantheon.
I do like the idea of Ares and maybe Athena too becoming more cruel and callous as wars became larger and more formulaic.
Perez ruined Wonder Woman. Nobody cares about ares or Greek shit. Bring back the dopey technology and go back to calling it paradise island.
Get off Cinemaphile Morrison
They should make her and Nubia sisters again
If I had to work within the constraints of modern sensibilities, I'd have her be a mentor to other heroes, and her arc be about going from being an uncompromising zealot of occasionally deadly justice to being almost the Master Yoda Mother Bear of the Justice League for middle-tier supers.
Batman trains all of the humans who use gadgets.
Superman mentors all of the ultrahumans in worlds made of cardboard.
Wonder Woman trains the superhumans who can wipe out a dozen armed bank robbers without breaking a sweat but would get themselves killed if they tried to fight another super without a team or a plan.
Since Diana has been trained from birth to be a warrior, she doesn't have experience dealing with children, or non-Amazons. She expects them to be disciplined warriors like herself out of the gate, and expects them to fight with her level of brutality, not understanding that her upbringing was incredibly unique.
She'd be like Piccolo training a bunch of Gohans.
It would end the same way. You'll never be able to write Diana into barefoot pregnancy, but by the end, her grown students should eventually be happily handing off their children to her for training or even mere babysitting. She should be able to fight with one of her student's babies safely tucked under her arm, so thorough is her control.
I’ve never understood why people like you spend so much time thinking of dumb shit like this nobody would ever want to read.
I mean Wolverine worked as an Xavier sub. could work.
90% of the people who claim to like this character only do so cause they think she's hot. This is still better than other female superheroes like Power Girl, Batgirl, or any of the X-girls where it's closer to 100%. Either way, nobody's reading her comics and nobody wants to write her. Seriously, what aspiring comic writer grows up saying "I want to write Wonder Woman"?
>Seriously, what aspiring comic writer grows up saying "I want to write Wonder Woman"?
There are a few transexual pornstars like that. Vanity TS for one
I liked all the weird tech stuff in the old Wonder Woman comics. Like Diana making the invisible jet herself and the Amazons having guns and going to space.
Wonder Woman Earth one isn't good aside from the art, but I do like that it used a bunch of the old goofy stuff.
Anyone else prefer the "made from clay" origin? Seems more mystical.
I like that its more original. Zeus being a bawd just takes away from her amd isnt a new thing.
I'm sorry Diana, I prefer evil women
See Diana CAN be pretty evil, especially in all those bad timelines where for whatever reason going evil corresponds with her jumping on Superman's dick. Like Injustice. Or the one where Superman killed her on the spot for some other shit. Or the Dark Knight series. And YES, it absolutely counts as a bad end. It's just that even then Diana goes for a very banal, uninteresting, petty form of evil.
Also I like how Circe herself retconned 9 and 10 as her LARPing as a supervillain and making up edgy backstories just to pass the time as an immortal.
dumb villain
dumb post
for me it's 12
I should not have played that game in my formative teenage years, Circe is to blame for my dommy mommy fetish
what game?
DCUO
Circe is nuts
She needs to be a good character first.
how muscular do you like your Diana?
I like a fairly bulky Diana.
Death by snoosnoo
patrician
Buff Diana is best
this. Faust spoiled me, now I need Diana to have a poorly hidden accent and be 2 heads taller.
Name the female heroes who consistently have better runs than ww
Good writers don't care about her.
Assuming minimal editorial interference, Tom "The" King WILL save Wonder Woman
no, it will be PTSD over and over again.
you WILL like it
Because DC is fricking terrified of embracing Wonder Woman's sexual side when her entire character as conceived by Marston is a super-woman from a pacifist society rehabilitating supervillains through loving dominance. So that's why we get all of these gay takes where Wonder Woman is either a sword-swinging Xena knock-off or super edgy shit like Azzarello.
Christopher Priest unironically had the closest idea as to how Wonder Woman should be written with that one story where a dictator says he'll stop doing evil shit if Wonder Woman has sex with him.
because e-girl is illegal in the west, sadly
Correct
What book/issue was that story where pre-teen Steve Trevour meets pre-teen Diana?
Smallville Season 11 Issue 16
at this point I'm fully convinced only a pedophile could write a compelling wonder woman series, all she has been for the last years is either a plot device for superman/batman or a soapbox for writer's attempt to politicize their troon fetishes
DC might as well go for it.
They won't even despite most of their writers actually actively engaging in such thing, they are cowards.
They should change Wonder Woman to Diana and the Wonder Girls, where the Amazons are all cute e-girls and go on adventures.
and throw in some clay e-girl golems into the mix for the muh golem e-girl-deniers
Now I want to see art of e-girl Artemis.
Make it happen artgays
Put her in more explicitly sexual situations. Especially with other girls.
thighs.
She was originally written by a guy with two wives who believed that women were inherently superior to men and that bondage was the key to world peace or something.
They need to embrace the core concept of the character, comment on how silly it is, and then insert some meaningful message. That seems to be the formula for a lot of good revivals of older characters.
Trying to make her a feminist icon isnt going to make for a unique and interesting character. Play into the utter insanity of the original concept a bit and you have something more unique.
Morrison already shat the bed on that
Marston was an academic feminist and academic feminism has always and continued be a cesspit of neuroticism and unhinged fetishism dolled up in a lab coat.
Where as if you asked the laymen your family or neighbors etc what they think feminism is you'd likely come away thinking it was a new age take on chivalry just how men and women should act around each other and nothing more.
Wonder woman is a feminist icon because she is exactly what a feminist icon would look like warts and all.
And if anything the Marston's old works in feminist literature might even be considered more on the grounded end by todays standards.
Justice League Forsaken Souls is her best story
call me a moronic power level gay but they really really really should stop pretending that she's a god on par with Superman, both because it never amounts to anything and because it never fits what she does outside of power scaling. None of her villains are that way either. She's a street-leveler/mid-tier who's threatened by bullets, and that's fine.
Wonder Woman is a bad character, and to make matters worse she has a vocal minority of """"fans"""" that think she should never be altered at all because she's an LGBTQGBBQ+ icon, making it impossible to fix her. Grant Morrison tried and couldn't do shit with her. At this point she only has a comic so that DC gets to keep the IP.
What do you think about Eris?
I miss her
If you think about it, Wonder Woman is the most useless member of the league.
>She's not the smartest.
>not the best with technology.
>not the strongest
>It's not the fastest.
>not the best swimmer.
>It's not the most versatile.
>not the best detective.
>She is almost useless in space and at sea.
>doesn't know anything about magic.
and anyone can use greek weapons, it also doesn't help that she always chooses the more violent option.
A third of these are "she's not a genius", nobody gives a frick about fighting the handful of low-tier villains who operate underwater.
By these standards Cyborg or Mr. Terrific makes Batman redundant and useless.
>is not the most versatile
that's where you're wrong
she's not the best at individual skills but she is the most versatile because she has most of them
also the lasso is useful if J'onn is not in the team
She is a bad character.
Adam Warren writing her as a bandage bawd who subconsciously wants to lose and be defeated and tied up, but who can't find anyone strong enough to defeat her unironically would be a good fit for writing Diana.
*bondage bawd
From thr beginning the gay movement was about legalizing pedos. They have books and pamphlets in the 60s talking about their strategy to normalize pedophilia. Dr John money was a pedo who encouraged pedophilia. Harvey Milk the gay politician famously had underage boyfriends
>Harvey Milk the gay politician famously had underage boyfriends
Bro everyone in the 60s and 70s was fricking 16 year olds. I’m kinda sick of you zoomers acting like this is odd. It used to be relatively common. Not something people were proud of but it wasn’t considered pedophilia (and definitionally isn’t).
Ok, now defend Michel Foucault.
>ok, now defend *hastily googles name of famous gay guy*
why
I have a grad degree in English, I didn't need to google the father of queer theory.
I have no need to, you didn’t engage with the point I made and I have no knowledge of who he even is. Apparently he wrote gay shit, I’m sure you’re super proud of knowing who he is.
I agree with you that having sex with teens as an adult is not the same as pedophilia, though I think that it's still pretty skeezy once you're in your late 20s. That doesn't change the fact that there's a significant movement within queer theory and some parts of LGBT activism that wants to push down the age of consent and classify pedophilia as a sexuality. And while I commend LGBT activists for condemning it, I don't think they are being logical or consistent in doing so, as long as they embrace queer theory at least.
In the TV show Wonder Girl is viewed as a 15 year old (although it's uncertain if she really is, she could be way older like the other Amazons), and in the episodes she appears there's always some platonic stuff with guys in their early 20s and nobody cared or cares
Except that's not true. NAMBLA was involved with some of the early organization but the LGBT community did the based thing and dropped them the moment they didn't need that organization anymore. NAMBLA and MAPs are different anyway.
The rest is bullshit conservacucks made up because they know their chance of getting to stroke their murder-boners on the LGBT is fading quickly and they think if they can trick the normies into thinking Pedos are in with the LGBT they can keep stroking for their kill-nuts a little longer.
And good on the LGBT organizations for dropping NAMBLA, though I seriously question why they needed to team up with them in the first place.
But John Money, Michel Foucault, and many, many other prominent activist figures are not just made up by conservatives. They're real and they are responsible for where the LGBT activist community is now.
Just bought a copy of Wonder Woman Earth One. What am I in for?
A fairly lousy series that ultimately shits on WW's characterization and mythos because Morrision doesn't actually care about the character.
Artists too, fricking Artgerm style sameface weebshit
Perez killed Wonder Woman
jesus fricking christ finally some recs. Thanks!
Probably writers are trying too hard to be a feminist icon.
Instead of writing her as a person with her own personality.
anon
she's a woman
>pedophiles making the best WW posts
What the frick
pedophiles will save wonder woman
What are the ideal/best WW runs? I've always liked the idea of using her as DC's Thor, but I don't know what actual fans of the character want for her.
how come she's always a stand out character in the animated movies and her 2009 movie is still one of the best DC has put out, and yet her modern live-action appearances are all dogshit?
Because women are mostly shit at action scenes and choreography, not all of them but most of them.