Why did he waste so much energy on the drum player? Surely he had plenty of students who played real instrument he could have coached instead?
Why did he waste so much energy on the drum player?
Why did he waste so much energy on the drum player? Surely he had plenty of students who played real instrument he could have coached instead?
Drums are the backbone of any arrangement. Can't fault him for focusing on it.
>Why did he waste so much energy on the drum player?
Probably because he's like Marco Pierre White, and the drummer was Gordon Ramsay. If you think someone has potential, then you'll give them the most attention. If you can't understand that logic, then you wouldn't be a good teacher. It's like making a sword out of the strongest metal you have.
b-b-b-but muh equal outcomes
Because the movie doesn't work if he focuses on the string section
the nose knows
it’s not rock and roll. jazz drummers actually matter.
post some drumless rock and roll then
god damn this is boring and i listen to dungeon synth
A lot of conservatory types doing drums are second rate drummers who didn't qualify for their preferred instrument but weren't so moronic that that they can't crank out solid music theory. An actual mentor relationship was probably magnified by someone with actual percussion talent. .
underrated and insightful post
because it is the most meaningless postion, and he enjoyed taunting him, it got his tiny dick hard
he explained in the restaurant scene that he treated Neiman like shit because he thought he could get results from him
some fathers and teachers treat their favorite kids the worst
They think the harder they push the better the result. Sometimes it works. Sometimes you break people and they never recover
maybe those who failed were just shit.
The way actual musicians improve isn't with this kind of method anyway. If you practice hard, that doesn't mean it's effective practice if you're just autistically hyperfocusing on technique. Part of the musical process is the chance to collaborate and learn from your peers.
This movie assumes that musicians are like athletes who can just exercise more to get in better shape, it doesn't work like that. I got over a lot of my rough patches by simply taking a break, chilling the frick out and coming back when I was in a better state of mind.
Chilling out and coming back in a better state of mind usually works for anything. If you do something to much you burn out. You have to take a break and come back after
>This movie assumes that musicians are like athletes who can just exercise more to get in better shape, it doesn't work like that. I got over a lot of my rough patches by simply taking a break, chilling the frick out and coming back when I was in a better state of mind.
The theme of the movie that Chazelle pushes is that greatness (especially in art) requires pain and sacrifice. He does this in Babylon too. This is why the protagonist strives for relentlessness
you are describing how a healthy / normal non-obsessive functions / relates to craft
guys who have been swallowed whole by an idea or pursuit don't function like this, and the movie is pretty accurate in this regard imo based on watching two people go off the deep end and not come back
You are not going to play fricking dark funeral if you are not training like an athlete
Isn't this the point of the movie? He can't take his anger out on the important musicians so he redirects it all at Andrew since a drummer is easily replaceable
I don't think you could have missed the point of the movie harder.
>protagonist dumps his girlfriend because he wants to be an amazing drummer
>the teacher himself recognises this, and tries to help him with tough love
The movie is about the struggle that all people have to go through to be great. It either comes from someone else, or the person has to push themselves.
YOU missed the point of the movie. One of his students killed himself. Andrew gets into a car accident, attacks Fletcher. The point of the movie is about exploring the unhealthy dynamic you often find in the teacher student relationship, the fact that Andrew strives so hard to work for the approval of an abusive figure and whether or not the results are really worth everything surrounding it, or if this abuse is even necessary
Literally this. I did my apprenticeship under a domineering head chef exactly like this guy.
I would go to work every day with him yelling and throwing pans and shit but I never seriously considered quitting. Because you had to fight and burn yourself to get a scrap of recognition, every small part you got felt like a gold medal, but there was always higher pressure and expectations.
Looking back it seems stupid now, I could have made the same money working somewhere else and not spent years trying to earn the approval of an emotional cripple.
That said I'm fricking amazing at my job now, shit that other chefs struggle with is a joke to me. But I can also get the job done without making people cry and telling them to kill themselves so maybe it was all bullshit.
Yeah, I think the whole "Gordan Ramsay autist shitfest" mentor system is a bunch of horseshit. You can be firm and not be a total dickhead in pushing people to be better.
Yeah that's my opinion as well.
That said when you're 18 years old and don't know better, its easy to get sucked in. There's a lot of parallels to cults and shit.
Like back then everybody I knew, all my friends, were either kitchen staff or FOH. You would be at work from early morning to late at night most days. After work you would drink at the restaurant after hours, usually till pretty late until you got some sleep and came back to do it again. Very little contact with the outside world apart from drug fueled parties and nightclubs.
If you quit you basically lost your friend group overnight, the chef would tell people that you 'couldn't cut it' or that you 'jumped ship' to another kitchen. Obviously all bullshit, but you wouldn't know when you're immersed in that culture.
That's why I love this movie, I don't give a shit about fricking college bands, but the story resonates with me emotionally.
If other people don't like the movie thats fine. It's not for them.
But the point is that what Fletcher did was justified. And neimann rejects comfortable mediocrity to acheive greatness.
The scene where his dads offers him a hug but he rejects it.
The outcome was greatness, but Fletcher's goal isn't greatness, it's perfection; the ultimate moving goalpost.
By tricking his students into chasing perfection they can never be 'good enough'. There's no level of critical acclaim or achievement which meets his standards.
Even the ending, Fletcher isn't acknowledging Neimanns skill, but his zealotry.
Thats pretty much true, I doubt there was much self awareness. That said my boss was extremely adept at manipulating people. He would play people against each other, pick at insecurities and get in your head.
Personally he saw everything as 'his'. So if somebody made a mistake he would get insanely angry as if they personally wronged him.
Exactly this. My boss's father was an IRA member who fled Ireland with his family. He was an extremely strict 'army' type who administered lessons with violence.
People like Fletcher, or's boss aren't thinking deeply about their behviour. They don't think
>hmmm today I will deliberately act like a spastic and abuse everyone too scared to confront so that I can build greatness in others
They're just spastic morons who can't control themselves.
Cope. They know they have gone through the same shit and that what made them good at what they do and they are trying to pass on the torch.
In the movie, fletcher straight out admits this to neimann. In real life it’s more complicated but there are similarities
This is actually cope. People that act like Fletcher failed to achieve greatness so they take their anger out on other people, especially people that want to overcome them. I bet that anon's chef boss hated being a chef and hated the kitchen he was in and thought it was beneath him.
Fletcher went out of hiw was to undermine Neimann and sabotage him, if he really gave a shit about "passing on the torch" he wouldn't have tried to frick him at the end out of revenge. He knows he was wrong too, which is why he lied about the student who killed himself. If he actually was trying to make great musicians he would have been upfront and honest about that, instead he knew he drove him to kill himself because he was a shitty instructor and he kept on doing what he was doing before.
No one has ever achieved anything great by being inside a circle of abuse, the idea that being treated like shit made them good so that they will treat other people like shit is only what mediocre spastic morons tell themselves to justify their behaviour.
Any man who can't control his emotions in a professional setting is a woman as far as I'm concerned.
It's pure narcissistic autistic inability to comprehend the craft. There's nothing masculine about emotional outbursts as a means to respect. The feared man can expect nothing but conniving deception at best and outright contempt at worst.
If you can't treat your art like a science then you're a woman.
Well thats certainly a take.
I recall a study where researchers raised and trained dogs for obedience. Some used only positive reinforcement. Some used only negative. And some a mixture of both.
Predictably the best results came from a mixture of positive and negative training, but negative only crushed positive only, especially when the tests involved adverse stimuli like loud noises or unpleasant smells.
I think its self evident that the same is true for humans. Strong punishments and scant rewards are enough to make principled and strong willed people do almost anything. People don't really care about philosophy or the nature of society, they think about the people around them and the role they fill in group (tribe).
You're probably right that the "ideal master" is some kind of enlightened purist. But that's not really how human beings work fundamentally. Ego is always a consideration. Social dynamics exist. As soon as you get 3 people in a room, a hierarchy will form.
Anyway at the end of the day many of the best chefs I've ever seen were women. And they were rarely as emotional or ego driven as their male counterparts...
Well, I'll write this as a concise way to sum up my point ... intermitten reinforcement is certainly best, but precisely how and why you employ a technique of punishment depends on your level of empathy and consciousness of other people and their mental frames.
It's sufficient to explain to a student that the biggest loser should they fail to adhere to the routines of practice and apprenticeship to a craft is the student themselves, followed by their mentor, and then society at large. They're practicing because they want to be a good father, a good husband, a good citizen, and to accumulate respect and admiration alongside wealth and status. And if they don't listen to you, then those things become less likely by the minute. Therein you twist up into a single knot the motivation to success and not to fail.
That's all the motivation anyone should ever need. Spazzing out and screaming like a woman is simply the woman's way of affecting change in the men around her.
You were 100% right in theory. Until you got to the woman part.
You gotta touch some grass buddy. Women are just people; some good, some bad, few great. You can't paint 4 billion people with the same brush and consider yourself intellectually honest.
*the negative woman.
I love women, as agents of femininity. What I don't like I'd when the histrionic elemt of woman parasitizes narcissistic men into brutal emotional scenes the likes are reserved for hormonal women.
>Men cant be bad unless they are outwardly emotional and emotions are reserved solely for women
I assure you that is not the case.
>I recall a study where researchers raised and trained dogs for obedience. Some used only positive reinforcement. Some used only negative. And some a mixture of both.
source? I want to read this study because I got in an argument with somebody about pitbulls and why they're dangerous, because I was arguing after owning one I realized they don't respond to negative reinforcement basically at all on account of having such high pain tolerance and essentially no fear, and the other side of the argument was saying negative reinforcement wasn't necessary at all for training dogs which I heavily disagreed with.
Pretty good take.
It's both dumb fricks. Both are true
he was busy leading the aryan nation and trying to get beecher killed
Tobias Beecher took a shit on his face.
He was an insane boomer and the drummer was a dumb cuck who needed a daddy. In the end neither got what they wanted but they both probably coomed about it afterwards
Literally the answer
I'm a fan of this anon's dark comedy interpretation
it's actually a sports movie, replace drumming with any sport and nothing will change. it even has a "character gets a career ending injury" scene
Brainlets missing the point of the movie again. It's not about "becoming the best drummer", it's about this twisted father-son power dynamic between Neiman and Fletcher, which is why Neiman is constantly looking for Fletcher's approval, because his own dad was too milquetoast.
>Neiman and Fletcher,
>"Play it BETTER you shallow fricking WASP FRICKASS."
This and also that people like Fletcher can have an inordinate amount of influence over your career. Music is one of the hardest things to make a living at, you literally have to be the absolute cream of the crop AND have connections, AND get lucky or you starve. Neiman knows this and in addition to the dynamic you mentioned he fears burning a golden ticket to making a living as a gigging musician
The point of the movie: The teacher is abusive and psychotic (he drove a previous student to suicide). Neiman is a good victim in that he lacks the ability to assert his own boundaries and takes whatever shit his teacher doles out. Victimizers are good at selecting their victims. The phony tough guy teacher needed to be punched out in act one.
>drones on about Charlie Parker
>fancies himself as le revolutionary avant-garde musician
>abuses students because somebody said something mean to Charlie Parker once
>thinks that had anything to do with Charlie Parker becoming the firebrand of his generation
Jazz “studies” is a massive grift in the first place, and then you have buttholes like this that actually believe what they’re doing is revolutionary when in reality they’ve been in the museum for going on a century. I’ve had teachers that pushed me hard, and yes that does make you a better player up to a point. But to think you can sift out the next Charlie Parker, whatever the frick that means to this gay, by abusing people in such reckless ways is completely moronic. Parker would have become Parker no matter what some homosexual supposedly told him. Some people have the talent, drive and luck, most don’t, simple as.
.Midwit post
I've always thought about how pointless everything was.
Who gives a frick about some Jazz drummer who can play cover of old Jazz songs while bleeding?
We aren't in the 40s anymore, kek.
This. Radiohead perfected music when they released In Rainbows anyway, it's a dead medium now
Helps that Phil Selway is a phenomenal drummer
Professional orchestras and conservatories hemorrhage cash and are always propped up by the investor class, be it for status, tax breaks, optics or because certain wealthy autists have an obsession with “high-art”. These things still exist to serve the upper crust of society as they always have, and I say this as a self-professed autist that loves bop and orchestral music
Just started watching oz and almost finished what scene is this? Why does this guy love wiener and guys buttholes so much? Is Chris gonna kill him? I'm on the second to last episode of s6, this show has blown me away honestly and disgusted me. I can't wait to look into the making and writing of. I had no idea what the show was about or who was in it just knew I wanted more HBO and this show is a fricking gem. Why is it not more popular? I bet the snowflakes are offended by the reality of the show. It's literally the truth. We all live in our own prison. Why the frick is Schilinger even alive? Why hasn't anyone killed him yet? It would be so much easier to kill him than track down his crackhead son and through the mafia and have him wacked
PARKER
YOU BETTER GET THIS DRUM SOLO RIGHT
OR IM ASS RAPING YOU TONIGHT
THAT WASNT A JOKE. I WILL ASS RAPE YOU BECAUSE I AM A PRISON INMATE
Weird
Them soles tho
the realistic answer is that there’s way too many brass players and way too few drummers out there. if you find a drummer you have to make the most of it
Piano chads how are we feeling today
Remains the king of instruments.
Everyone overanalyzing this movie ITT. It's literally just a story about how music teachers are morons who think they're top shit
t. Elmer Fudd
Alternatively, you can look at Whiplash as a sports movie that replaces sports with music. Drumline did the same thing back in the early 00s.
Except Drumline is a steaming pile of shit.
t. horrid taste, drumline is pure kino
>real instruments
moron
>captcha
Boomer narcissism and vicarious enjoyment. Baldy probably has arthritis and it makes him envious of the not yet decrepit and miserable youth. Whiplash is a VAMPIRE movie.
Cause it's a movie with a plot n shit.
Not quite my poo-poo.
I bet you getting shot in the dick would be a Faustian Performance Art piece
>Americans really have music schools for "Jazz"
>Americans consider these schools prestigious
Fricking lmao I just couldn't take this movie seriously
This. Jazz is just an excuse for Black folk being too high to play their instrument properly
Because drums are arguably the instrument with the most potential within the genre, and in particular the titular piece of music the movie centers around.
Stop calling it jazz. It’s bebop. All of those heroin addicted homosexuals like Charlie Parker and Dizzy Gillespie played BEBOP. Not jazz. They were also bankrolled by a female Rothschild because the whole point was to subvert jazz which is pre-war American music.
Explain. Was the point to make jazz Black person music so that whites would be pushed towards the next psyop of rock n roll