Why do people have a knee-jerk reaction to the idea of Sonic being taken seriously?
Why do people have a knee-jerk reaction to the idea of Sonic being taken seriously?
Why do people have a knee-jerk reaction to the idea of Sonic being taken seriously?
Because he looks like a tire with a face on it in this panel
A perfect post, thank you.
fpbp
Because white monkeys cannot comprehend anything that doesn't directly reflect them being taken seriously
I dunno, maybe because the entire Sonic franchise has become a colossal laughing stock in regards to gameplay, writing, innovation and overall quality and despite that they still desperately try to market their games as mature with edgy brooding characters that use guns, romance between photorealistic humans and 90s mascots, and laughable plots like forming a freedom fighter resistance?
Your beloved series is a fricking joke, sonicuck
And yet, despite all the failures (and there were a LOT), he still lives...
…to be laughed at and mocked by other more successful series.
Don't worry, anon. I'm sure he's just one MORE shitty game or lackluster show away from death. Any decade now.
Sonic hadn't been serious after Unleashed though, when the Happy Tree Friends guys took over writing duties it became so self-aware it swinged really hard into the opposite side with Sanic becoming Reddit incarnate. People welcome Ian Flynn of all people with open arms because dumb shonen Sonic is still better than reddit "lmao guys don't the games suck? lol Big the cat more like Big the gay" Reddit Sonic.
Forces says hi. And whaddya know, it was as big a pathetic joke as 06.
We were way better off with the Colors tone.
Forces main issue was the game sucked, the story itself was just a SatAM pastiche with a Chris Chan mechanic (i.e. the OC).
Had Forces been good like Generations or at least to Unleashed, people wouldn't had shat on it. They managed to make the Hedgehog Engine 2 worse than the original Generations and Unleashed ran on.
>Forget THOSE guys.
>OUR guys are the freedom fighters now!
>Do you love them?
>Please God love them
I mean, for all intents and purposes I didn't grew with the American Sonic fandom, by the time Sonic caught up where I leave it was already a third party so I'm not really part of the SatAM autismo. I gave all cartoons a fair shake and SatAM to me was painfully boring. Adventures was fun enough and Underground was just bad.
Boco was arguing Forces was bad because of the plot/different writers and not the game itself being dogshit. The plot itself is not any dumber than SatAM already was. But it's ok when that cartoon did it for some reason.
Because Sally or the hick rabbit gave kids a boner.
Idk what to tell you, anon. I did grow up with it.
>The plot itself is not any dumber than SatAM already was.
Remember in the game when Sonic was captured and they talk about how he's being HORRIBLY tortured and Amy freaks out, and then you find him and he's totally fine?
I mean, robotization was handled the same, it just wasn't Sonic who was at the end of it, but no-name frickfaces who didn't exist in the games.
It's actually worse. It's better on Forces, but because the engine was meant for linear level design, it causes a lot of pop up in an open field.
>It's actually worse. It's better on Forces
Well of course it's going to be worse for an open world title, something the engine wasn't designed for, but I was talking more about comparing Forces' rendition of HE2 to that used in previous boost games.
>The plot itself is not any dumber than SatAM already was
The central premise of the game's story is Eggman finally beating Sonic and conquering the world, but Eggman himself is essentially treated as a secondary antagonist so the devs could push Mephiles 2.0, who has one of the most pathetic backstories in the franchise. It's already dumber than SatAM for that alone.
Also the Phantom Ruby not actually warping reality, but instead creating illusions that appear so real than they can actually hurt people is needlessly convoluted.
An SatAM he already conquered the world, too. And although we didn't got that third season, Robotnik was going to be replaced by some super special OC, so yeah. Not any dumber.
I meant it's better on Frontiers. the momentum and gameplay feels more consistent in those linear stages than it did on Forces. I tend to scramble both titles, my bad.
Actually, he was going to be replaced by Knuckles. One of the writers changed it to another character from the show later, when he was trying to get it back on the air.
>An SatAM he already conquered the world, too.
And? Robotnik is still depicted as the primary antagonist in the show. That's the point.
Forces repeats the same general premise but doesn't actually feature Eggman in a narrative role where he feels like the main villain until around the very end, making you wonder why they even bothered with that kind of story in the first place. That's what makes it dumb.
Even if the masked dude was there, the whole tone of Forces just felt exactly the same as SatAM just slightly more self-aware. SatAM Robotnik was just boring, too, I never cared for him. Long John Robotnik was somehow more memorable when I got around watching that cartoon.
Bear in mind again, I have no nostalgiahomosexualry and have no real race in this, I watched that cartoon in my early 20s out of boredom because something I DID like was the Sonic games' music.
>SatAM Robotnik was just boring, too
oh, so you're just totally wrong, i see
Eh. Adventures had better gags with the character.
It has no weight exactly because of self-awareness. The so-called "meta era" of Sonic just caused that, a "why fricking care" feeling towards the games' stories.
So whats wrong with that? Its silly, lighthearted stuff.
In the case of the Pontiac and Graff (or whatever his name is) era? Got real old, real fast. It was cute in Colors. It made sense in Generations as just a big celebration game. By Lost World is was obnoxious.
The jokes aren’t the issue imo, it’s the extremely weak and lazy writing in the story
Lost World and Forces alone should be enough of a reason to never want the Colors writers back ever again.
Colors' writers didn't handle Forces' story, they just localized cutscene dialogue. If they were the main writers, you can bet they would have regularly placed Eggman front and center since he comes across as the character they enjoyed writing for the most. Similarly, they only wrote cutscene dialogue for Colors.
I think Lost World is the only mainline title they had any real influence on, plot-wise. I'm not really a fan of them as comedy writers, but I doubt the writing would have been significantly better without their involvement. Even Frontier's narrative only manages to be marginally better than that in previous games, with plenty of issues of its own. Seems like writing quality (and to a lesser extent, story presentation) is just going to be something that Sonic will always have trouble with.
Dream Team too has a very basic run of the mill plot despite Ian Flynn
>"why fricking care" feeling towards the games' stories.
Yes, and that was exactly SoJ's opinion. That's why they, y'know, didn't care about the games' stories and SoA had to come up with something.
Still the most boring Robotnik, and a waste of Jim Cummings
so unbelievably wrong
Dude mostly sits around in a chair and is somehow more interesting than how Eggman is in most of the more modern games, with a fantastic voice acting performance.
This has to be bait
>more interesting
He was a generic saturday morning cartoon villain with even less personality.
NTA but I have to agree with him. I like JC, but as Robotnik he just sounds so bored. Long John Bauldry, on the other hand, embraced that role and made it his.
LJB's Robotnik plays things up and emotes because it's a comedy show, overacting is the point.
JC's Robotnik stays low and sinister in tone, so he can then explode when he gets angry.
I like 'em both, but saying JC's Robotnik isn't great for the tone and theming of the show is nuts.
There is no way to waste that voice, anything with it is automatic points just like Keith David
>the whole tone of Forces just felt exactly the same as SatAM just slightly more self-aware
That's nice, but I didn't say anything about the general tone of either. My main points about Forces being relativity dumber involve Eggman's usage, Infinite being a joke of a character, and the logic behind the central macguffin being pointlessly convoluted.
>just slightly more self-aware.
lol no
There is no weight to any of the threats, unlike SatAM where the freedom fighters would have wins and losses. Characters would be taken and they wouldn't show up later like it was no big deal.
>Characters would be taken and they wouldn't show up later like it was no big deal.
Like those nameless redshirts?
But most of them weren't nameless.
He came back just fine though.
Not without help, and not after a season of everyone trying to figure out how.
Some of the named ones never came back.
Who the frick is this homie?
His name is Cat.
Is he a big cat?
No, he is an old cat. Look at his grey whiskers.
Doesn't he come back as a cyborg in Archie?
Idk, I only ever bought one issue of the comic when I was a kid and I thought it sucked. Never bought another.
for you
>The plot itself is not any dumber than SatAM already was
The main McGuffin literally changes what it can do on a whim. Literally nothing about Forces makes any sort of sense, to the point where it was even called out internally by the localization team about how much the story sucks.
>no one would be complaining if the game was good!
No fricking shit, Sherlock. That's the most worthless thing you could possibly say, because part of the reason why the game sucks is because of the schizophrenic tone. Even if the gameplay was halfway functional, thats only going to go so far with such a dogshit story. It absolutely would not save it from being relentlessly memed on Knuckles saying hackneyed shit like "None of this is good, that's why it's called war".
Right before gunning down helpless Badnik prisoners.
>They managed to make the Hedgehog Engine 2 worse than the original Generations and Unleashed ran on.
Is the engine actually worse, or is Forces' art direction just so drab that it ended up making any engine-side technical improvements meaningless.
Something similar could be said for Frontiers' art direction. At the very least the HE2 seems to be better optimized than the original, at least for linear, boost-centric stages.
Frontiers showed serious Sonic works way better than sarcastic passive-agressive Sonic.
>Colors tone
Nope, not that badly mcnosehair generic crap. It was fine for that specific game but Sonic trying to copy marvel humor isn’t good
this, Sonic has been the biggest joke for literal decades. The ultimate laughing stock of gaming. No matter what it will do, no matter how hard it tries. It will always be a joke
I'd say there are way bigger laughing stocks, especially in the last decade or so.
Maybe there's some bigger ones as of now, but Sonic has been the longest running continuous laughing stock
>with edgy brooding characters that use guns, romance between photorealistic humans and 90s mascots
That was 23 years ago. GET OVER IT!
Sonic was created as a technicolour way-past-cool mascot for a kids franchise that cracks jokes and eats chili dogs while beating up a guy named Egg Man. Trying to turn that into super cereal soap opera melodrama is fricking stupid.
You can do serious mature stories with cartoon animal characters, Sonic isn't one of them. It's a cheesy kids franchise for kids, either respect that or frick off.
What this guy said.
Doesn't help that every attempt to do otherwise has been a laughingstock.
>Sonic was created as a technicolour way-past-cool mascot for a kids franchise that cracks jokes and eats chili dogs while beating up a guy named Egg Man.
Nah, the whole “Sonic was made to be a mascot first” thing was a lie spun by Sega Of America execs. Sonic was slotted into the role of company mascot because they liked one of the designs Ohshima came up with while he and Naka were already working on the game.
Sonic was heavily inspired by shit like Felix The Cat, Dragon Ball, Miyazaki flicks and Star Wars, the games were meant to be cool and cinematic, with the composer for Sonic 1 even stating he developed the soundtrack like a movie.
There’s a reason the games started having grandiose stories once they went to 3D, Sonic was always meant to be cool and serious which made him stand out amongst the whimsical Mario.
Americans ruined Sonic by making shitty cartoons and comic books which came from misunderstanding the source material, then brainrotting Izuka into believing they should have Shadow pack heat since GTA was popular.
Oshima literally took a sketchpad to Central Park and started asking people which character they liked most. That's how we wound up with Mr. Needlemouse.
>misunderstanding the source material,
hey could you tell me what planet the first 3 Sonic games take place on real quick? pretend it's 1994 and Adventure hasn't come along to try and retcon it to Earth yet.
didn't Sega of America make a pitch bible for Sonic that completely ignored what the Japanese had established in their instruction manuals? Sonic is born on Christmas Island in the original Japanese continuity.
Though knowing this board I wouldn't be surprised if half of the people here aren't even aware about Sega of America and Sega of Japan absolutely fricking hating each other to the point many believe their infighting killed the Saturn and by extension the Dreamcast.
Glad you bring that up, because I'm trying to google to find the original pages right now. Sonic HIMSELF states that Christmas Island is "a world very different from our own." So it ain't Earth's Christmas Island. It was from a Japanese Q&A in 1991 just before the game came out.
Also the Japanese story from the manual is literally just Robotnik likes turning animals in to robots and wants to build a theme park. That's it. Not a lot to go on.
The Sonic Bible was written in February 1992, before the manga was even published. Sonic had a grand total of two characters. Sonic and Eggman.
Found it.
Isn't Sonic mostly popular in America, and Japan doesn't care as much? The American interpretation of Sonic is undoubtedly setting lots of people's expectations for the franchise.
Wrong. The original Sonic wasn’t “way-past-cool.” That was added when they brought him to the US.
The original Sonic was a cartoon hedgehog fighting against an evil scientist who wanted to trap and enslave his buddies inside robot machines.
You are complaining they reinterpreted the character but your version of him is itself a reinterpretation. It’s fine to reinterpret characters. It’s fine to do something different with them. Only autists freak out over Sonic being different.
>That was added when they brought him to the US.
wrong. he's breakdancing to house music in his own fricking commercial
Why do people want to make a blue hedgehog that runs fast into something serious?
Sonic in the west was already carried by kids whose parents didn't let them watch something cooler. In the early 90s all the cool kids were watching Power Rangers and playing TMNT on SNES. So Sonic fans have had insecurity issues from the very beginning.
I was into Power Rangers way before Sonic and can confidently say that Sonic is cooler. The frick are you on about?
TMNT was starting to wanr back in '93 after III flopped and kids turned their attention to Power Rangers.
As for Sonic attempting to ride the Cerebus 'coaster you can thank Evangelion for that
>you can thank Evangelion for that
I'm pretty sure no one at DiC who worked on the show knew wtf Evangelion was.
I meant gamewise. Comicwise it was Captain Planet
More like if anything with sonic in it gets more dour than AoStH, somebody has to have a shit fit about it being edgy grimdark nonsense. The most serious the series can get is something like SA2 where there are stakes and reasons for the characters to take things seriously but it's still a mad scientist holding earth hostage with a space laser instead of sonic having a mental breakdown or experiencing the horrors of war.
Attempts at more serious/intense Sonic stories are universally carried out by deeply stunted or outright mentally disabled adults. A good writer can work with anything, but when has Sonic ever had a good writer?
>but when has Sonic ever had a good writer?
...Nigel Kitching?
I don't mind Sonic being taken seriously. I take issue with how they've done it, every time.
Archie was fun when it wasn't being ruined by Penders, and the original SatAM show could have been cool if it actually used the whole cast instead of being the Sally show with Sonic ex Machina.
Just give me Robotnik doing dark shit and the heroes coming together to fight it while having goofy adventures on the side, not relationship drama or constant overly convoluted and contradictory history drops all the time.
People have a kneejerk reaction to anything Sonic does.
Not unwarranted to be fair, because the execution on serious Sonic has largely been bad, including that ridiculous panel.
But at this point people mock Sonic no matter what he does. Sega tried a more comedic, lighthearted approach during most of the 2010s and after a decade he was no less of a laughingstock. If anything, trying to dial back so hard just made it worse.
The mainstream liked Sonic again for 3 days when Mania released, but then remembered it’s an early 90s platformer that’s been way too many things and been around way too long to regain its original identity.
It helps that Mania was a very simple game in its presentation. "Here's Genesis Sonic, enjoy." Plus, you know, the fact that it was good helped too.
On the other side of the spectrum, look at Sonic 4, when Sega tried the same basic concept and it sucked.
autism
...and politics. if you boil it down, sonic is a left wing eco terrorist who fights against a totalitarian polluter that's destroying the forest and violating animal rights by turning them in to robot slaves, reminiscent of an unregulated capitalist industrial revolution. similar to princess mononoke.
plus the fact that SatAM and the comics as well as the video game levels routinely have scenery of ancient civilizations, or murals, or ruins, which is very anthropocentric, which is a cultured approach to criticism and/or expression of interpretations of society
a right wing sonic fan isn't going to want to contemplate anything that comes close to what's actually going on
the bad execution doesn't start until sonic games are no longer on the genesis or 32X
eeeeh, i would say it started on the 32X
Followed by the Saturn Dry Spell
This thread must have been posted a billion times already and yet every time there are still dummies who bother to respond to it
He's a three foot tall blue hedgehog who is known exclusively for one-liners.
It would be like asking "Why doesn't anyone take Duke Nukem seriously?"
>It would be like asking "Why doesn't anyone take Duke Nukem seriously?"
Why don't I just kick your ass?
Cause he was created to compete against Mario as a coold and edgy character. He's nothing more than a corporative tool that was never good besides two games
Because Sonic does "serious" badly and most of what kicked it off was western artists. Granted, by the time of the adventure games this tonal shift was hitting the japs as well but still but they can't even do it well either.
The adventure games for example have their fun moments but overall the tones of their stories are not the best and frick up the pacing of those games hard.
Believing a "goofy" art style or story concept makes something inherently incapable of handling mature themes or any attempt at doing so inherently "dissonant" is ironically, an extremely immature attitude in of itself, it only shows that (You) can't take it seriously solely due to your preconceived biases. Even Vincent Van Gogh's art style could be considered "goofy", but you'd be hard pressed to find someone who actually thinks it would be ill-suited to mature themes.
>Omg Tezuka is so dramatic!! That's tonally dissonant!
>Deleted his post to repost his argument
>When my argument had nothing to do with style but the fact that Sonic always fails at doing serious properly
BOOO YOU STINK
It doesn't matter how many times you repost it, it doesn't change the fact that it's not the art style people are taking issue with and rather the tonal shift from an inherently silly, non-serious character and doing a complete 180 to make it into something it was never intended to be that people are reacting so viscerally to. It'd be like taking the Michelin tire man and making an entire movie about him being in Vietnam - even if it is a well written story with solid themes (something Sonic as a franchise is a complete stranger to) it's still an inherently stupid fricking idea.
>Why are you like this, OP? Are you that desperate for attention?
He's (presumably) old enough to be posting on Cinemaphile and still into Sonic the Hedgehog, so he's definitely got some mental illness going on.
>things should be static
>new installments shouldnt try to explain, delve into, challenge or contextualize previous installments
>new things are bad
>"This movie/game wasn't how I imagined it in my head and that makes me upset!"
>Cartoons can't have drama or seriousness for whatever reason... no I will not elaborate
>You can't have drama in a series about a talking blue hedgehog because I say so. You are deranged.
Iteration and re-evaluation of past concepts is essential to producing anything of value when you use old stories as your basis. It's how we come up with new permutations of ideas instead of trotting out the same old ones on repeat. I can point to Superman. Our very idea of what Superman has been shifted by people doing EXACTLY the kinds of stories you decry as betraying the material. He was not a compassionate figure UNTIL people like Binder put him in situations his powers couldn't solve and created further restrictions in order to explore Clark's morality and character. Shit, Kryptonite as a weakness wasn't even a Siegel and Schuster invention! It was added to the radio show for drama! They inherently changed the entire conceit of Superman because the norms established in the comics weren't engaging. Challenging convention is not inherently good or bad.
There is no inherent tone from an art style, or story concept, there are only biases you've accumulated about art that you apparently are incapable of acknowledging because you struggle to think outside your own experience. This is also probably why encountering something strange upsets you rather than intrigues you. Classic sign of a sub-80 IQ
Your entire argument is cope for the fact that you get filtered when something initially light-hearted develops a more serious or somber tone over time. Which is a far more embarrassing position since it's a subtle admission you're incapable of looking beyond surface level aesthetics unless a work of fiction brings itself to MCU-tier irony.
>"N-no, really, Sonic the Hedgehog can be deep and mature, you're the one who's low-IQ for disagreeing STOP LAUGHING AT ME"
Wanting to restrict the artistic and thematic expression of a franchise because of the appearance of the characters or their names is philistine shit.
Imagine applying this logic to something like Courage the Cowardly Dog, which is lauded for its episodes that have dramatic moments or touch on serious subjects.
>ummmm.... you can't make a sad story cause it's about a wacky dog that makes wacky faces at scooby doo monsters! it just doesn't work, because.... it just doesn't, okay!!
Grow the frick up.
Courage was built from the ground up to be a kids show tackling adult and horror themes, so that has always been the expectation going in, bad example.
>I just love reductionism into strawman! I love hecking taking what my opponent says and turning it back around regardless of it it makes sense or not!!! Hecking reddit karma!
The point I am personally trying to get across is that Courage works because it always what it was presented on the box AND IT WAS GOOD. Sonic changed and the result was usually bad.
And Sonic was built from the ground up to be a cool character meant to go on adventures in an ever expanding world filled with mythical lost civilizations, magical gemstones, floating continents and giant space stations, it’s appeal came from how it took itself seriously, the intent behind Sonic was not to spout catchphrases, but to enrapture audiences by just being awesome in all it’s 90’s anime inspired glory.
>it’s appeal came from how it took itself seriously,
And that's the problem. People are outright scared of any form of sincerity that isn't human centric, photo-realistic or otherwise.
>Wanting to restrict the artistic and thematic expression of a franchise because of the appearance of the characters or their names is philistine shit.
No one here is seriously making that argument. The argument being made is that if a character/show/whatever is taking a specific tone from its inception, trying to change the tone into something that's wholly different is going to create unavoidable whiplash. Courage the Cowardly Dog works because its tone was always "comedy with elements of horror and drama"; if it went into being straight-up horror or full-bore comedy by losing one of its two "halves", it would be worse off for the change in tone. That's why a lot of people don't buy into Sonic whenever he gets super-serious: Sonic was never a super-serious character (and neither was his franchise), so treating him super-seriously creates tonal whiplash. He's not supposed to be The Punisher; he's supposed to be The Flash.
>things should be static
>new installments shouldnt try to explain, delve into, challenge or contextualize previous installments
>new things are bad
>"This movie/game wasn't how I imagined it in my head and that makes me upset!"
>Cartoons can't have drama or seriousness for whatever reason... no I will not elaborate
>You can't have drama in a series about a talking blue hedgehog because I say so.
>Ignoring that the classic games already had serious and dramatic moments before which the Adventure series only expanded upon and leaned more into
>Sonic never had a serious tone from the beginning
You are deranged.
How about this: from what I can tell every time they’ve tried doing “serious Sonic”, they’ve flubbed it super fricking hard.
Add in the fact that the sonic fanbase has weirdos like fricking Chandler as the face of it, and you can see why people generally mock it.
>Something was done badly once!!! Therefore it should never be attempted and any attempt at doing so should be mocked not based on the actual story from itself but from the concept itself!
>No, this is not a dishonest and surface level way of looking at media.
None of that is my argument.
>something should change if there is a proper way of changing it without causing full-bore tonal whiplash
>new installments should try to contextualize older installments, but not at the expense of the tone and themes of those installments
>new things can be good, but not because of newness alone
>that sounds like a skill issue
>cartoons can have dramatic moments, but they have to make sense and be earned to avoid complete tonal whiplash
>you can have drama in a Sonic series, but trying to turn Sonic into a full-bore drama and cutting out the humor of the franchise is a huge fricking mistake
>now when you say "classic"...
>Sonic didn't have a serious tone from the beginning - it was a goddamn mascot platformer, not a Shakespearian tragedy
should change if there is a proper way of changing it without causing full-bore tonal whiplash
>>new installments should try to contextualize older installments, but not at the expense of the tone and themes of those installments
Which it didn't. Sonic Adventure 1 expands on the lore was introduced in 3&K as well as the CD games. In this case the "tonal whiplash" is a subjective experience and is purely experienced by yourself only.
>new installments should try to contextualize older installments, but not at the expense of the tone and themes of those installments
Which it didn't.
>that sounds like a skill issue
Skill issue for what? You being shit at arguing?
>cartoons can have dramatic moments, but they have to make sense and be earned to avoid complete tonal whiplash
Which the majority of the moments in the Sonic Adventure series are. You keep using the phrase "tonal whiplash" as a crutch and a buzz phrase for anything you don't like or can't explain.
>you can have drama in a Sonic series, but trying to turn Sonic into a full-bore drama and cutting out the humor of the franchise is a huge fricking mistake
Oh. You haven't actually played the series you're trying to criticize then. Even Shadow the Hedgehog had humorous moments.
>Sonic didn't have a serious tone from the beginning - it was a goddamn mascot platformer, not a Shakespearian tragedy
It literally did. It was played straight like a shonen from the very beginning.
https://info.sonicretro.org/Sonic_the_Hedgehog_2_(16-bit)/Manuals
https://info.sonicretro.org/Sonic_the_Hedgehog_3/Manuals
>referencing the manuals
oh my god nobody read those for the plot you fricking loser
ahahahahaha
what the fricking frick, opinion discarded, go back to your cave
nta, but literally the only way to get the plot was from the manuals, anon. that's where SoJ put it. they only cared so much why this hedgehog was fighting an egg.
so they would shit out a single paragraph and stick it in the manual.
I am literally using what the Sonic source material itself says. If that doesn't convince you, then nothing will.
>Zoomzoom wasn't around for when games needed to tell the backstory through manual because cutscenes were barely a thing
>Probably got filtered by Sky Canyon
Just because Sonic Team took the "AND THEN SONIC TURNED INTO SUPER SAIYAN GOKU TO BLOW UP A DEATH STAR WITH EGGMAN'S FACE ON IT" joke seriously in the jump to 3D doesn't mean it wasn't originally a joke.
>Did lesbians beforr it was cool while Bush was in power.
mad respect
Overrated lifetime reject.
>Believing a "goofy" art style or story concept makes something inherently incapable of handling mature themes
It doesn't make it "inherently incapable" nor is the "goofy" art style is the problem you strawmanning gay. Literally no one said that or even implied it.
The problem is Sonic himself. HE can't do it. His series can't do it. His fans can't take it. His writers would flub it. He is in a series diametrically opposed to doing anything serious and not looking absolutely ridiculous. So you can stop posting much better cartoons and saying "Sonic can be just like this!" because he can't be, he never was and never will.
tl;dr
>You can't because I say so!!
You frickers were insinuating in the beginning that serious tones of the likes of Sonic doesn't work because of visuals and surface level details alone, don't bullshit.
You're sheltered to the point where you don't even know that there's other kids media who are more disturbing than Mother. Power Rangers had children die on-screen and had multiple implications of genocide.
Any series is valid if done right, saying that one series shouldn't be allowed to tackle serious topics because muh visuals, then you are a manchild that deserves to be mocked. MLP literally had episodes that had forced labor and suicide. And it's a show about fricking ponies.
Happy Tree Friends is a gorefest comedy adult show about cartoon characters who would fit for a kids show fricking each other, you are saying that it shouldn't have cutsy cartoonish designs because it's too dark, even on a adult show like these? Should adult shows have "mature" designs, should had even been a cartoon at this point? What is the point of HTF then?
Fricking hell.
And for the love of frick, it's all game as long as it's executed well. The artstyle is all dependant on personal tastes, but if you do well and not dogshit like for instance, creepypasta game dogshit with HYPERREALISTIC EYES, then it's all good. It's why the indie scenes is doing well in comparison to AAA gaming.
Again, do not restrict someone's work because of visuals alone. That's the beauty of fiction.
>You can't because I say so!!
Period, yes. Now put your blue hedgehog away Timmy.
I love it when the person arguing against me has no actual arguments left and is instead postng reaction images and memes. I accept your concession.
That's not even remotely close to a justification. All you're saying is that people need better media literacy.
>That's not even remotely close to a justification.
Seems like a fine justification to me if we're talking about knee-jerk reactions to surface level content.
They see the cartoon animal media and have certain expectations for it. When it goes against their initial expectations they have a knee-jerk reaction to it, in most cases negative.
A simple, but sensible explanation.
>I love it when the person arguing against me has no actual arguments left
You don't have an actual argument. All of your arguments boil down to:
I accepted your concession ages ago. You are a grown man having a fit that no one takes your cartoon hedgehog seriously. Filled with strawmen and generalizations like:
>You frickers were insinuating in the beginning that serious tones of the likes of Sonic doesn't work because of visuals and surface level details alone, don't bullshit.
When you are too intellectually unable to realize the actual argument at hand, Your cringe blue hedgehog has other problems besides just being a cringe blue hedgehog. All of those problems stem from him being a 90's mascot who should have died a looooong time ago. If it was Bubsy trying to be dark and serious, we would have equal parts ridicule for the attempt.
Now put your sad little hedgehog OC away.
nta but is
>DURF BLURF 90s
your only backing argument?
literally everything is a product of its time, anon.
>DURF BLURF 90s
>your only backing argument?
Sonic and Bubsy are both out of touch ancient marketing campaigns made to sell consoles, video games, and toys. They are fundamentally incompatible with deep, rich storytelling because of their place as a tool for the game industry and business.
>literally everything is a product of its time, anon.
Precisely, which is why Sonic can't create good, compelling stories. He is the wrong tool for that job.
>nta
sure bud. Just like everyone else thinks Sonic is actually "REALLY COOL" and that branding is the only reason people find him cringe.
Anyone who seriously believes this isn't just out of touch, they're out of their mind. Please, seek help.
>out of touch ancient marketing campaigns
so then obviously you could give an example of one that isn't, right?
>He is the wrong tool for that job.
because he's from the 90s? so you're saying good, compelling stories were impossible before...when, exactly? what date would you say? 2000? 2001?
...anon, when were you born?
>so then obviously you could give an example of one that isn't, right?
>because he's from the 90s? so you're saying good, compelling stories were impossible before...when
Pic, your entire argument hinges on fighting strawmen you made up in your head.
>What's an example of one who isn't?
Mario, unironically. He's a short fat plumber but at least he didn't build his entire self-image out of being too-cool-for-school.
Oh yeah, and Mega Man. Because it DID The transition from funny Astro Boy knockoff to actual Terminator style robot apocalypse.
More like Casshern and Hakkaider, less so Terminator.
So much, Sigma is a rip off of pic related. A big bald, intelligent robot who's malfunctioning and said malfunction has made him decide humanity is holding back the potential of robots/reploids.
Mario's entire self image is stomping on turtles and never getting pussy.
No wonder kids liked Sonic more in the 90s.
How many proteins did scientists name after Mario, again? Thought so.
>Mario's entire self image is stomping on turtles and never getting pussy.
That's actually exactly why he's suitable for bigger stories: he didn't market himself as this 2-cool extra awesome can-do-no-wrong crimefighter. He's the definition of a schlub, and thus he has a character. It's not much of one, but it's better than the entire saga that was the Storybook franchise they tried to do with Sonic.
>can-do-no-wrong
but American Sonic messed up all the time
you're thinking of post-SoJ-mandates Sonic
>because he's from the 90s?
What the frick are you even talking about? The 90's was the PEAK of "Let's take funny mascot character and make them edgy and cool".
Sonic is not edgy nor was he ever cool. You just think of him as being the canvas of some brilliant extended universe because you grew up with him.
>...anon, when were you born?
80's. Back when this was considered peak comicbook entertainment.
We think of this shit as cringe for the same reason we can't take THESE guys and make a competent story out of them: they're fricking ridiculous. Just like Sonic.
Who seriously believes what? That surface level aesthetics don't disqualify something from having rich storytelling?
>Post that BTFO'd everyone in the thread gets deleted by some butthurt tard reporting it to the mods
kek.
It really didn't BTFO anybody, it was just a minor meltdown by anon, even resorting to ad hominems.
He literally logically refuted everything they said in that post. What?
Nah, m8, making up strawmen and going "Black personhomosexual" isn't logical refuting.
>Sonic and Bubsy are both out of touch ancient marketing campaigns made to sell consoles, video games, and toys. They are fundamentally incompatible with deep, rich storytelling because of their place as a tool for the game industry and business.
>Posts the game that basically disproves the idea that Sonic himself is just a catchphrase spouting machine with no depth.
>YOU SHOULD LET THE STORY END BECAUSE CHIVALRY AND KNIGHTS ARE GAY AS SHIT
What depth to Sonic's character is that?
The fricking gall to use Tezuka to defend your dogshit argument. Dororo is an especially poor example because that book was a massive failure at it's time, precisely because of the clashing tone betraying the edgier, more graphic material. Whenever it gets rebooted the FIRST thing they do is give it a more appropriate tone and style. When Tezuka tried to make Astro Boy edgier he got a huge amount of backlash from it. His only books that were able to afford a cartoonish style while being darker in tone are the ones that veer closer to being educational/historical books, like Black Jack and Buddha.
Your entire argument coasts on being completely detatched from reality, ignorant to any sort of context or nuance.
How come Devilman worked even though that also had a goofy artstyle
Because it was from the start a serious piece of media.
That and all early manga looked kinda goofy.
Partially because the goofiness has an aesthetic that allows for the Devils to be intimidating and partially because as the comic became more serious, the art changed too. The scene where Akira gets teased by Miki for being such a crybaby is very different from the scene where he finds her near the end of the series.
Probably also "helped" that depending on who you ask, Creating Devilman was how Nagai was dealing with some ugly feelings or was actually giving him depression. Finally, Nagai actually has some practice trying to modulate his "Goofy/Serious" tone in his works. Cutey Honey, for instance jumps between "Panther Claw commits a goddamned war crime" and "Honey's just sort of..hopping around naked because her transformation went haywire and it's flustering Sister Jill something fierce." both around the same time. There's another one about a crass high school that was cancelled because of parents writing in, so Nagai just straight up has the kids of the school go to war against adults, and lose; and die.
Nagai's a brilliant but very bizarre creator, when you take a long look at his body of work.
Popularity doesn't correlate to quality.
Your anger doesn't make you correct or your arguments sensical.
>But muh Astro Boy
What does that have to do with Phoenix or any of Tezuka's other work, all of which features the same cutesy art style with more serious themes (Dr. Blackjack, Apollo's Song, etc.)?
Do you think that Astro Boy didn't have any serious stories to tell in it...? You DID actually read the fricking manga before parading it around to make your point about... What's your point again?
Is Phoenix’s cutesy art style inappropriate given the serious subject matter? I’m not deflecting, but the example was deliberately chosen. Tezuka can both resent being forced to make one story more serious, while at the same time spend years crafting a serious story with the same art style (Phoenix) on his own terms. Please focus.
>Popularity doesn't correlate to quality
Then your own argument is useless, because you're quite literally asking "Why is edgy Sonic shit not popular". Also the implication that SONIC of all things is even close to the same quality as Tezuka story is laughable.
>What does that have to do with Phoenix or any of Tezuka's other work, all of which features the same cutesy art style with more serious themes (Dr. Blackjack, Apollo's Song, etc.)?
If you can't see the difference between Tezuka using a cartoonish aesthetic to soften up an otherwise harsh elements for a younger audience, vs Sonic Team pretending to be "mature", then you should spare the gene pool of your stupidity and end yourself already.
>Then your own argument is useless, because you're quite literally asking "Why is edgy Sonic shit not popular". Also the implication that SONIC of all things is even close to the same quality as Tezuka story is laughable.
Again, your anger is clouding your ability to actually argue correctly. Having a knee jerk reaction to something being taken seriously, doesn't ergo then mean that I'm asking "Why isn't edgy Sonic popular" my argument is not that despite you claiming that it is. Try and stay focused and actually argue against what I'm saying properly.
>If you can't see the difference between Tezuka using a cartoonish aesthetic to soften up an otherwise harsh elements for a younger audience, vs Sonic Team pretending to be "mature", then you should spare the gene pool of your stupidity and end yourself already.
Seething much? My argument was that a cartoony art style like Sonic can work with more serious themes and then posted examples of such to support my argument. Even Sonic clashing realistic aesthetics with the cutesy art style would count as an example of this. Where is Sonic trying to be more "mature"? Where? How? Explain your argument. I'm not going to magically get what you're saying if you don't.
People take Tezuka and Mickey doing serious things because they're actually sincere about it instead of Sonic being a protagonist so 2kewl and ironic that they wrote an entire game about how he thinks chivalry and King Arthur was fricking moronic bullshit.
Sonic trying to be taken seriously is a product of team of people wanting to turn Sonic into something he's not.
For the west, the whole "Freedom Fighter" schtick was made because one dude was developing Furry Star Wars, but in order to get ABC to order it, he had to base it on a video game he never heard of. Also America doesn't respect cartoons unless they are subversively funny or an action toon to sell toys.
for Sonic Team, it's that they wanted to use Sonic as a stepping stone to make different games that would satisfy their DBZ fetish and got stuck with the blue rat forever, so they slap whatever weird anime nonsense they have stuck to their heads into his games
Nobody on either side of the pond wants to commit to the idea of a colorful super fast cartoon hedgehog fights evil mad scientist obsessed with toy robots and eggs.
>it insists upon itself
THIS, SO THE FRICK MUCH!
Mario comes up and goes "play the game. have fun"
Sonic comes up and says "play the game. try to have fun, but you won't cuz you didn't get the real ending unless you finish all the special stages and get all the emeralds. And there's no real reward for emeralds until Sonic 2, but you gotta for lore reasons. Also, enjoy your arcadey speedy 2D platformer; once we go 3D, everything fricking changes"
Mario is content with being a fun game for you.
Sonic keeps stumbling & failing to be something bigger than he is & he drags you along with him.
>the whole "Freedom Fighter" schtick was made
Because SoJ didn't care why this hedgehog was fighting an egg and didn't think up much of a story.
In order to better sell Sonic to the west, a story and cast were provided. It succeeded.
>you didn't get the real ending
except the differences were superficial.
https://youtube.com/shorts/gWiK1zQ_Imk?si=lC59DT6NUPTqNprn
pretty sure the levels of fun were the same.
>Mario comes up and says "play the game. try to have fun, but you won't cuz regardless of how you get through the game you'll be getting the same ending every time with no variation, look we'll put a warp zone right in level 1-2 so you can skip as much of this boring slog as you need, we know it's not terribly fun and you would like to get it over with as quickly as possible"
"Hnyehhnyehh i'msawnicthehedgehawg, WOAH! Too slow bro! Gotta go fast! heeheheh heysallycmonsally hnyehhnyeh WOAH! S-S-S-SpeedCHEESE! Too Kewl 4 Skewl!!! You hurt muh fwens?? alright time for me to unleash my hidden DARK SIDE nothin personel keed!! hnyehhnyeh WOAHHH! ChilliDAWGGS??? WOAH! Radical! Hnyehhnyeh Too slow bro!"
“S…stop laughing at me you guys I’m super cereal!”
>When you get older you cringe at war vet Sonic with sexy figured Sally Acorn.
>Not realizing this makes perfect sense to a twelve year old boy.
I knew Sonic was fartsniffing cringe since I was 8. Any self-respecting 12 year old will have moved on to Call of Duty.
>Call of Zion
If only
it insists upon itself
https://desuarchive.org/co/search/text/Sonic%20serious/image/IRW-JaP-jF9Nq-iasFoyXg/type/op/
https://desuarchive.org/co/search/text/Sonic%20seriously/image/IRW-JaP-jF9Nq-iasFoyXg/type/op/
Why are you like this, OP? Are you that desperate for attention?
>Scratch and Grounder are dead and never coming back
now that hurts
And Coconuts. At least they live on in countless Sonic 2 ports...
Now that does actually kinda suck.
From what I can remember of the show I liked those guys.
Also that iteration of Robotnik.
The fact that his theme for the movies HEAVILY resembles that of Adventures is something I really like.
I remember looking up his theme on YT, hearing it, and thinking “hol the frick up, that sounds really familiar.”
>The fact that his theme for the movies HEAVILY resembles that of Adventures is something I really like.
Not hard since they're both based on the same piece of classical music.
Wait really?
Didn’t know that.
Neat.
Normalgays can't handle autism kino
What causes autism like this? We are on Cinemaphile for frick sake, no need to make a block of text explaining how art style doesn't determine the tone of something, any avid comic reader or cartoon watcher can tell you this, it is just mostly sonic does it badly enough that people cannot get past the art style or tone shift. You can do those things, they just got to be GOOD ENOUGH to distract the audience.
Yahtzee really ass blasted you morons int oblivion, didn't he?
What did he do?
He made a whole video about Sonics tonal issues, right after Sonic: Death Stranding came out.
Then he quit Zero Punctuation.
That sounds amusing.
Here you go
?si=n07iMXsHg7Bh7CDH
Thread can't get any worse anyway.
Imagine that same panel but with Mario. Do you see how fricking stupid that would look? Your furhomosexualry has ruined your life
>Appeal to absurdity
More "because I say so" bullshit.
Mario does "serious" stories just as often as Sonic does and only like 2 people in the entire universe have a problem with it.
Mario's presentation of said stories is usually different. That's what makes it more digestible to most people. You could also use Kirby as a similar example.
Maybe Sonic would have an easier time getting away with "serious" stories too if the games weren't filled with boring cutscenes of characters standing around spilling awkward dialogue and blatant exposition to each other.
It helps that Mario is much more of a classic fairytale/children's fantasy in its presentation and setting then Sonic ever was. The whole premise was "What if Italian dudes were sent to Oz/Wonderland instead of little girls?" after all.
Also Mario's "serious" storylines are actually well-executed and fit with the tone of the games. The darkest it ever really got was Super Paper Mario, and even that had a lot of the tragedies (the destruction of the Sammer Guy word, Luvbi's sacrifice) get undone thanks to the magic of the Seven Crystal Pure Heart Star Moon Whatevers.
Same with M&L, the darkest out of all of them being PiT. Whole ass alien invasion, Toad being processed into energy for the alien, whole towns destroyed. And in the end, its all fix with baby tears.
I don't really see how Sonic's setting/presentation is significantly different (at least initially). He's a cartoon woodland animal who bops robots and fights a meanie scientist. It's nothing super out-there or new.
At the end of the day, story presentation and execution are what matters most, and is specifically what sets Mario and Sonic's approaches to storytelling apart from each other.
Mario's a Disney fairytale while Sonic is the animal trickster you find in Looney Tunes or Tex Avery cartoons. Similar realms but distinct.
>Similar realms but distinct.
Sure, but not so distinct from each other that Sonic couldn't tell a story similar to how Mario tends to do so.
Sonic doesn't need to be a mute, but you *could* cut out a significant amount of dialogue from his games and the general narrative wouldn't be worse off for it, as an example.
>You could also use Kirby as a similar example.
Kirby is everything Sonic should be.
Kirby is cute, light-hearted & nonsensical...right until the last few levels where Kirby has to punch out Cthulu.
By focusing so much on being cute, then raising the stakes so high at the last minute, the tonal whiplash of absurdity somehow makes Kirby looks cool.
Sonic tries too hard to be cool 24/7, so it makes him look like a lame Pokemon. Sonic trying to punch out Liquid Gojira doesn't make him cooler - it just makes him a Gary Stu shit.
Some people say that The End could have been that first step, Sonic's own version of Dark Matter.
Pure innocence versus unspeakable evil is also a great contrast and gives Kirby a great underdog quality.
Sonic making quips and doing skateboard stunts just makes me think of Poochie.
I view Sonic as a furry Dante. In fact, I'd go as far to say that in terms of tone, "Furry DMC" would be a great direction to go in.
People would love furry DMC. People mock when Sonic goes furry DmC. Important distinction to understand.
It helps that the Mario games with serious storylines are usually done in a different artstyle than the main series, making them more easily digestible. If you had a game with Super Paper Mario's tone with the artsyle of the mainline 3D games and cutscenes with voice acting, it'd be fricking moronic.
Outside of Galaxy, most 'serious' Mario stories are relegated to the RPGs, which usually balance it out by being even wackier than the main games.
>every time Sonic has tried to be super-serious it's fallen flat on its face with Penders nonsense, Shad05, Sonic 06
>only time it maybe worked was SA2, whose darkest character was a ripoff of Vegeta from DBZ and MewTwo from fricking Pokemon
>BUT WHY DO PEOPLE LAUGH AT SONIC??
Gee, I wonder.
Anyway, many years ago I went and ate some BBQ with a girl I was into. I grew up in a small town and we would all party on a stretch of road out in the country. I was hanging out there when it hit me. I took off and was going to go to the nearest gas station, but then a scenario of me shitting my pants in this public place started haunting me. So I broke into a nearby short bus and took the fattest, brownest, mushiest, softest, hardest, smelliest, filthiest, bloodiest, stickiest, slipperiest, most liquidy, most solid, heaviest, blackest, bloodiest, juiciest, most corn-ridden shit anyone has ever taken directly in Mooregay's mouth.
>a ripoff of Vegeta from DBZ and MewTwo from fricking Pokemon
No he wasn't you damn tool.
Mewtwo, absolutely.
Shadow literally has Vegeta scribbled into his design notes from SA2
He is literally just Sonic’s shit failed attempt to ripoff a Vegeta and force it into their babyshit series
Tbf Sonic has been ripping off Dragonball since Sonic 2, so it's nothing new.
seriously, it's like these homosexuals have never seen Super Sonic
like, hello, it's the most obvious DBZ ripoff EVER, and it's been in the games since the fricking '90s
Why is Sonic mocked for its furry fanbase but not anything else?
I mock it for the dumb fricking storytelling too.
Why does Nintendo have a knee-jerk reaction to the idea of Mario being too "childish?"
You know, maybe people just mock Sonic for the same reason they hate israelites.
As in, there's no reason. They're just a convenient designated punching bag.
Sonic was kicked out of 109 different countries.
It's the same reason people have a problem with Kingdom Hearts.
Cartoon animals talking about serious things only appeals to autists
Sonic has done serious moments well plenty of times, they've just done so in a way that actually makes sense with the pre-existing tone of the franchise instead of going full moron into DeviantArt emo cringe like the shitty comics did.
That is deviantart emo cringe, though. "Sonic the philosopher" doesn't fit with his character at all, I hate how the games make him a shitty Goku clone crapping out fortune cookie tier advice. If only the games were even a tenth as well written as the comics.
>"Sonic the philosopher" doesn't fit with his character at all
He's just explaining his attitude, that's all. It fits in a game where the main antagonist is trying to put her world in stasis to avoid change. He's always been intended as a chill guy who takes life day-by-day.
The comics where he’s an unlikable douche who spouts outdated slang simping over a princess and defending the monarchy?
He never specifically mentioned Archie. You're quite obsessed.
The only other things he could mean are IDW, where he's even more of a Goku clone to the point of sparing his enemies, and StC, where he's a huge butthole.
Thanks for proving my point, moron.
Why is the fixation sonic? Ok, bad question, I know the answer... but why don't other "Silly turned serious" franchises get the same level of autism?
How many other "silly turned serious" franchises can you name?
Pokémon kinda
I think Pokemon gets the same level of autistic attention tho
Not even close.
You're right, Sonic can't even compete.
Red vs Blue for a bit, and it had a similar, if smaller, autism boom from it. I remember there being a lot of fanfic written during the whole "what if we took a comedy show and told zero jokes?" freelancer arc.
Idk about that one either, because while RvB might have been comedy, it was still based off something serious. Halo sure wasn't supposed to be 'silly' now was it?
Literally any super hero comic.
Dragon Ball.
Transformers.
Gi-joe.
Digimon.
Megaman.
TMNT.
Jak and Daxter.
Kingdom Hearts.
Um, anon, literally every single one of those started with at least serious undertones.
>Dragon Ball
People get holes blown through them all the time. Goku killed his grandfather. The RR army brutalizes cities and villages.
>Transformers
Characters frickin DIED.
>Gi-joe
War is hell.
>Digimon
The digi destined were in real danger and took it seriously.
>TMNT
What is the comic?
>Jak and Daxter
I'M GONNA KILL PRAXIS
>Kingdom Hearts
... IS LIGHT!!!!!
Mega Man I might give you. Most of the artwork I've seen of horribly broken, disassembled, crying characters has not been official art.
Dragon Ball was still mostly a silly adventure comedy despite all that, it only started to get serious when Piccolo showed up
Gohan dies and the RR Army show up before Piccolo. People die before Piccolo.
Gohan’s death was not played seriously like Krillin’s was. It was offscreen and basically played for laughs when Goku doesn’t put two and two together when he doesn’t understand that him looking at the moon and his grandpa getting flattened by a monster are linked. Having a death in a story does not automatically make it dark.
Does having a stand-in for the Third Reich make something dark?
Depends on how it’s executed. Nobody would call springtime for Hitler dark.
The Red Ribbon weren’t Nazis but they were jokes. Goku easily plows through them all. The only competent guy was Tao Pai Pai and he’s still pretty goofy, killing people with his tongue and surfing on a pillar.
>People get holes blown through them all the time. Goku killed his grandfather. The RR army brutalizes cities and villages.
Nobody died in the Pilaf Saga besides Gohan offscreen, and he’s chilling in heaven with hot chicks. Also the Red Ribbon only killed one Native American guy and he was brought back to life, the leader of the Red Ribbon Army is a pathetic midget who wants to use the dragon to get taller. DB only got serious during the King Piccolo arc.
>Characters frickin DIED.
In the movie, the original show was very light hearted.
>War is hell.
Every plane that gets shot down explicitly has the pilot parachuting out of it.
>The digi destined were in real danger and took it seriously.
Tamers ups the stakes further.
>TMNT What is the comic?
The last Ronin was darker than any of the old comics.
>The last Ronin was darker than any of the old comics.
Never read Steve Bissette's stuff, I see.
>Also the Red Ribbon only killed one Native American guy and he was brought back to life,
Colonel Silver is executed, Tao kills General Blue, Black Shoots Commander Red in the head and Goku kills Black.
Anon, I'M GOING TO KILL PRAXIS was from the 2nd game and is a meme for a reason.
>>TMNT
>What is the comic?
Does anyone actually care about the Mirage turtles comic? The Turtles have been around for almost four decades and the original comic never broke 100 issues.
>Does anyone actually care about the Mirage turtles comic?
Those with actual taste do
>I'M GONNA KILL PRAXIS
That was the second game you nig nog.
Mega Man is a sunday morning kodomo anime-styled series about boy robot stopping a bitter old coot every week with no lasting consequences.
By the end of the timeline, the world is mostly flooded, there's scars on the surface caused by over 200 military-grade satellite canons, a (partial) colony crash, a satelltie crash, the extinction of mankind and the artificial life forms that replaced humans, unaware of the history of the world prior their creation, have their numbers routinely trimmed by Purge Officers who belong to a shadow government that was the last creation of mankind. Said shadow government operating both in the planet and from space used to be the paramilitary law enforcement that was tasked simply with stopping malfunctioning robots.
There's also a shit ton of religious references.
Difference is, those aren't the same Mega Man from the Classic series. They made totally seperate franchises just to explore those avenues. What OP is arguing for is like asking Mega Man 12 to have that same tone, because OP is severely moronic.
The Rockman 11 Production Book that was released around the same time as Mega Man 11 confirmed it is a single timeline, confirming the dates for Zero and ZX as 23XX and 25XX and dating Legends in 80XX (which had long-since been rumored given the Japanese title of Diggouter's Adventure Story in the Halcyon days).
Then during the release of Zero/ZX LC, scenario writer Makoto Yabe confirms several tidbits like ZX serving as a bridge towards Legends (Tethis himself desires a flooded world just like in Legends), modelled Innerlands after the concept art of sunken cities in Legends' artwork and that the ultimate goal in his notes was for al models to merge into Biometal Model XyZ, whose name would be pronounced Model ZASH or DASH.
>The Rockman 11 Production Book that was released around the same time as Mega Man 11 confirmed it is a single timeline, confirming the dates for Zero and ZX as 23XX and 25XX and dating Legends in 80XX
Okay, but that doesn't exactly mean anything. Jist like the Zelda timeline, it's little more than lipservive. We're never going to get Classic game that explicitly ties it together with Zero, because at the end of the day they're still very much separate franchise that don't impact each other in the slightest.
Why do you guys need all these paragraphs of text and logic pretzels to justify why something can't have a goofy looking art style and be serious at the same time.
There is no inherent tone from an art style, or story concept, there are only biases you've accumulated about art that you apparently are incapable of acknowledging because you struggle to think outside your own experience. This is also probably why encountering something strange upsets you rather than intrigues you. Classic sign of a sub-80 IQ
I was just discussing how Classic is by design different from the rest of the subseries in the timeline and why Inafune didn't felt comfortable with closing that gap, tho.
I think the best example of this is the PSP remakes, the tone of Maverick Hunter X vs the tone of Mega Man: Powered Up
You frickers were insinuating in the beginning that serious tones of the likes of Sonic doesn't work because of visuals and surface level details alone, don't bullshit. Stop backpedaling because an entire ocean of examples proved you wrong.
I just joined the thread Mega Man discussion once I saw it, man.
You should debate Sega on stream.
>serious tones of the likes of Sonic doesn't work because of visuals and surface level details alone
That seems like a reasonable explanation considering OP was specifically asking about knee-jerk reactions.
Except every time you go "B-b-but Tezuka and the Brothers Grimm", everyone shuts you down by telling you that the chili dog rat is not on their level at all.
You people have literally never refuted that comparison, ever. You only say
>T-they're not on the same level of quality
>They're not the same level of cultural relevance
>They aren't the same because (insert post hoc rationale bullshit excuse here.)
None of which actually refute the argument.
>they're not on the same level of quality
This is an actual good arguement. To change the Tezuka arguement for a different mangaka, that's why Cyborg 009 worked but Sonic doesn't, the quality of the writing carries it hard.
>T-they're not on the same level of quality
>They're not the same level of cultural relevance
Well, they're not. Sonic is a 90s kiddie mascot who eats junk food and is a TOTALLY XTREME SKATER DUDE. Having him "LEARN THE MEANING OF WAR!!" as in the OP is like going "NOW, CHUCK E. CHEESE KNOWS THE MEANING OF WAR!!"
Most of the serious stories people try to tell with him also generally frick up in terms of execution, resulting in:
>Elise, Princess of Bestiality
>Jason Bourne the Hedgehog vs. some FPS-reject aliens
>Ken Penders tastelessly comparing his campy Saturday Morning Cartoon villains to the Nazis with the "First they came..." poem
They did alright with the more serious story in Sonic Frontiers, though it was pretty generic.
But Astro Boy was just Tezuka ripping off Disney and Max Fleischer shorts.
>b-but
shut up
>facts
>S-S-SHUT UP
Only for the art and composition, the story itself was unique enough.
>Black personhomosexual
Ah, here it is. The ad-hominem. All to defend Sonic the god damn Hedgehog.
>the story itself was unique enough.
but he wasn't even the first robot boy
He wasn't, but I'd argue he was the most influential if we take characters like Rusty, Mega Man and Robotboy into account.
And Heroboy in Freakazoid.
We aren't saying you can't have goofy art and serious stories together, we're saying that Sonic sucks fricking balls whenever it tries doing that. And frankly, forcing wacky cartoon trickster animals into serious stories only for them to fall completely flat on their face isn't even unique to Sonic.
>Out of context comic screencap
You absolute moron, that's a clone of Mega Man shooting a fake Dr. Wily Dummy. Frick off with you bad faith garbage.
>Missing the point this badly.
There is no point. The entirety of that comic is better written than any of Penders or Flynn's slop.
Kitching-Chads stay winning
Granted, the Production Book confirms the Robots-centered games are all part of a single timeline, with the only ambiguious one being Command Mission. The director of CM commented it's "only canon if marketing wants to, but I directed it as it's own standalone product", but the artist of CM designed X thinking CM was an inbetween MMX and MMZ in 22XX, and thus tech should adjust accordingly. The Elf Wars lends itself to be an RPG, so who can blame him?
Kouji Okohara commented during X4's pre-release he didn't believe Dr. Light and Dr. Wily in X were the same as classic, but Keiji Inafune and Hayato Kaji disagreed with him saying X is intended to be the following step. In a long-since deleted post in Capcom's blog from the late 90s (according to the Japanese Atwiki at least) Inafune and Kaji commented Rockman and Forte was meant to be the final classic game because they didn't knew how to continue the games anymore, Bass felt it was overlapping with X, and thus the intention was, if X4 sales were strong enough, to focus solely on the X series.
It didn't went quite according to plan, but we got BN, itself an AU to classic.
Funny you say that because if the blogspot in Atwiki's account of events is real, then MM2:TPF's Bass Ending where Wily shows Bass the nearly-finished schematics for Zero (which show Zero in his X2 form, lending credence to the Planner's document that Wily died before finishing both Zero and the Virus, thus Wily as Serges merely finishing the job), that was as close as they dared to go, because the tone of classic Rockman is too different from X. Inafune infamously threw a shitfit and Kaji too but the guy is never brought up because Super Adventure Rockman shows helicopters with people exploding. Something about "such violence belongs in X, in classic Rockman they should have the tripulation parachuting safely".
Mega Man is weird, because it's a mishmash of a bunch of different Showa era things like Astro Boy, Android Kikaider and Gundam. The who silliness vs seriousness in the latter two were usually due to budget conflicts. The original Gundam anime was painfully low-budget while the writers were trying to do a serious sci-fi military series, while being forced to make it toyetic, and I'm sure there was a lot of executive meddling all around.
With Mega Man they had technical limitations to deal with, so they were simple games with barely any plot. And once they had the freedom to add more plot, they made it pretty dark almost too quickly.
>and I'm sure there was a lot of executive meddling all around.
IIRC Tomino confirmed for Gundam they could do whatever they wanted as long as the design of the titular mech was toyetic. That's why the ZAKU look more militaristic by comparison. It also had the advantage of Amuro's Gundam popping out much more against the mass-produced ZAKUs.
Those green military fricks also inspired the Sniper Joes and Pantheon enemies in Mega Man.
I distinctly remember some b***hing about the episode with Cucuruz Doan's Island that the Core Fighter scene in the beginning of the episode took up runtime that would have otherwise helped the plot (and animation budget)
Oh, I no doubt it that the suits were like "This is the new toy, shove it" on various episodes, I think Tomino spoke broadly on the whole run of the original show they were relatively free.
>they had technical limitations to deal with, so they were simple games with barely any plot. And once they had the freedom to add more plot, they made it pretty dark almost too quickly.
Pretty much this but with Sonic. The plots of the Genesis-era games boiled down to 'Robotnik is doing bad things, go stop him'. The moment they went to 3D, they became about eldritch abominations, child murder and post-apocalyptic futures.
> eldritch abominations
The Genesis-era games didn't have that much in-game, but the Japanese manuals did have some degree of story, including stuff like ancient civilizations that died out due to abusing the emeralds, Knuckles mistaking the Death Egg for the egg of a dragon that would end the world and Vector's interest in Newtrogic High being due to it being called an island of miracles and him believing in God.
While the Sonic Adventure is essentially a soft-reboot, Chaos' story in the first game is built off of what the classic games hinted at in the Japanese storylines.
>While the Sonic Adventure is essentially a soft-reboot, Chaos' story in the first game is built off of what the classic games hinted at in the Japanese storylines.
nta, but that still signifies the difference between Genesis-era and 3D Sonic, where the Genesis games used said elements as the background for a game's given setting, while 3D Sonic made these elements an active part of the game's plot
one is ignorable text/lore and the other is dumped on you as you play, making the latter significantly harder to ignore when it's badly written
>Pretty much this but with Sonic.
Sonic took it to the next level. Mega Man Zero and Legends, which arguably had some of the darkest stuff in the Mega Man series, still managed to avoid getting too cartoonishly dark, to the point the latter managed to have their equivalent to Team Rocket in a scene shortly before the main villain nonchalantly mentions killing everyone on the island, without feeling tonally inconsistent.
Sonic Adventure 2 managed to have an anatomically-impossible blue hedgehog alongside a vaguely realistic SWAT team.
It's kind of funny because I feel like the most "cartoonishly dark" the Mega Man franchise gets is with X4 and basically everything about the buffoonery of Repliforce, but otherwise that was just a one-off moment
>the most "cartoonishly dark" the Mega Man franchise gets is with X4
After X3 the writing on the X series gets progressively worse, but never really in a way that's considered "too dark" but just generally too shitty. If anything, the Zero flashbacks with robot blood on his hands was the edgiest part of X4.
Bro, MMZ is literally 75% of the planet genocided in its backstory, opens up with Zero fighting a dystopian regime led by what's beleived to be his best friend turned evil and has arguably the darkest villain in the franchise in Doctor Weil. It's way more cartoonishly dark than X4 ever was.
To be fair, X4's plot wasn't done by then-regular Inafune and Kaji combo, but because they became senior employees suddenly had other responsibilites, the writing of X4 went to Kouji Okohara.
According to atwiki in an interview with Inafune, he came to resent how the X4 plot was executed in the game proper and the characterization of characters, and praised Iwamoto for essentially "fixing the story" in the manga adaptation of Rockman X4
>https://w.atwiki.jp/gcmatome/pages/3847.html
Supposedly, Iris and Colonel being in Battle Network is because the team resents that Okohara did to Iris and colonel (their official profiles in the X4 Hyakka and X to Z mirror more the personalities of their EXE counterparts and flat out mentions events that didn't occur as protrayed in X4 proper). The X4 team went on to work on BN, while X5 onwards were handled by an outsource team led by Okohara, until he became replaced in X8.
>Pretty much this but with Sonic. The plots of the Genesis-era games boiled down to 'Robotnik is doing bad things, go stop him'. The moment they went to 3D, they became about eldritch abominations, child murder and post-apocalyptic futures.
-Anon that's exactly why everyone thinks those games fricking suck. X and Zero are cool, they are characters made for the world they were created in. Shadow, Sonic, Blaze, Silver, all the burger king kid's club: They're cringe pegs trying to be smashed into edgy holes and it comes off as ridiculous. Get that much better series out of your mouth and stop trying to compare them.
Dropped the pic of the coolest game ever made apparently
>Mario's entire self image is stomping on turtles and never getting pussy.
And he's still seen as way cooler than Sonic. What does that say for your blue rat?
>No wonder kids liked Sonic more in the 90s.
Kids in the 90's said pic would be the coolest game ever made, then they made it and people realized Kids have terrible tastes.
Sonic keeps pumping out shit game after shit game and cannot die. Do you really want to make an enemy of God?
>Kids in the 90's
take your meds, anon
>Doesn't know his own franchise
Shadow first appeared in Sonic Adventure 2, a game from 2001. Kids have terrible tastes.
>doesn't take his pills when he needs to
that pic ain't of SA2, anon...
>Kids in the 90's said pic
>The biggest and greatest argument sonic fans have for Shadow not being shit is that it came out in 2005 and not the 90s.
can we just admit you don't have any arguments anymore and end the thread because this is pathetic reaching even for Sonic fans who gaslit themselves into thinking Frontiers was good.
oh no, anon, i've never even played the game.
that other anon
said
>Kids in the 90's said pic would be the coolest game ever made
and posted a picture of Shadow the Hedgehog. i was a kid in the 90s. can confirm Shadow didn't exist yet.
It's really interesting how hellbent you people are on keeping Sonic shit. Any other fanbase of any other setting normally wants their setting to be good and interesting. They want to see it's history, characters, factions, political situation, culture, religion and concepts developed, sensible, believable and cool. Except for you gays. You want it shit. Naka and the comics made Sonic interesting and fanbase only screams:
>No! It's too much! Make it shit again! Make it simplistic! Sonic should never be good and interesting!
No wonder Mania was so successful. Even a basic, simple plot like Shadow's backstory, 06's story etc filter the shit out you fricks. Any worldbuilding seems to cause literal, physical pain in you. It's unbelievable really.
>They want to see it's history, characters, factions, political situation, culture, religion and concepts developed, sensible, believable and cool.
This is why Archie is unironically my favorite Sonic community despite the glaring flaws. The world building and lore is astounding. Probably way too much lore for a story about as blue hedgehog but hey, I'm here for it. The lore got stupid at times of course, you had the echidna bs going too far, etc. But there is no other version of Sonic's world that interests me like Archie's version. The games' world is probably the most boring.
Dragon Ball
And now its going back to silly. All is well.
I'd say Batman but he's always somewhere between being a silly but effective caped crusader to a super serious vigilante in the old days.
I don't. SA1 & SA2 are proof. But I also don't mind him being more Ghibli esque.
Because it's weird, that is all.
That isn't to say Sonic can't or shouldn't, just that it's a bit harder to, especially when you didn't grow up with it.
They're moronic, simple as
Because what you fail to realize is that there's "serious" that is to say Sonic treating things with a tonally appropriate level of response and then there's "SERIOUS" where every character turns into a overly dramatic soap opera and are crying every third panel.
Meh. Sonic is anime, anime does moronic tone shifts all the time. It can be done poorly and it can be done well, Sonic has examples of both
Adventure 2 is peak Sonic tone.
Because 1 Archie/IDW comic autists like You OP spam Sonic threads every single day and 2 because Sonic Frontiers made some realize that Flynn's is almost as bad of a writer as Penders
Agreed
There was a moment in SatAM S1 where they tried to free uncle Chuck from the robotization, but it didn't last long and Sonic was visibly heart broken when it happened. I think it was a nice moment that gave some depth to Sonic while not misrepresenting the character neither being cringy and out of place.
You can have serious moments in goofy franchises but there is a right way to do it and a limit in how much you should do. The "SatAM is le serious" is a stupid meme. It may be relatively more serious compared to the rest of the franchise at the time but it still is a lighthearted cartoon in the grand scheme of things.
If you want me to take him seriously than just present good, serious stories. Don't have the narrator blatantly tell the audience "this is not funny this is serious actually."
Because Sonic is still seen as a joke due to the dark ages which is why when any other franchise tries a serious storyline people will go “WOW this is incredible” but the second you try to take Sonic seriously the defacto response is “UMMM THIS IS A SERIES ABOUT A CARTOON HEDGEHOG BEATING UP A FAT EGG GUY LOL WTF SEGA IS SO STUPID NOW LOL!”
yes I am irritated that this still happens to this day
Plenty of silly stories turned serious do get shit on the regular, like Loonatics Unleashed. It's all about execution and Sonic never does it well.
>Because Sonic is still seen as a joke due to the dark ages
You act as if Sega hasn't continued to put out mediocre Sonic games since then. That's why most people continue to not take Sonic very seriously.
We did but at the same time for every mediocre game we got we had a pretty good game released right alongside it like the Advance or Rush trilogy or Colors and Gens
Even recently Sonic hasn’t really had a bad game since Forces, finally having a string of pretty good to decent games the past 6 years but I lost track of this post I’m pretty hungry. About to order some McDonald’s.
Reminder SA2 Eggman is genuinely not just peak Eggman but peak vidya villains in general
I can’t believe they went from this to Heroes where he’s treated like a damsel in distress in the very next game
Don't forget SA2 Eggman threated to murder Amy.
"Get here or she WILL die!"
He's only "peak Eggman" in a few very specific cutscenes, otherwise Eggman can act pretty stupid in that game, at least from a writing standpoint. Like how it makes absolutely no sense for him to use a timed bomb during the Prison Island heist.
Eggman being a playable character helps make him seem a bit more competent, I think.
To be fair, a lot of SA2 has “QUALITY” writing moments
>”You thought you could trick me with that fake emerald didn’t you?”
>”UHHHH SO HOW DID YOU KNOW IT WASNT THE REAL ONE?”
That moment made sense though. Tails is young and naïve, not calling Eggman’s bluff was great.
>Why is 60 something scientist smarter then 8 year old
That bit makes perfect sense, Sonic even gets mad at Tails for falling for that.
Reminder that Eggman was fricking with Tails. He knew the emerald was fake before they showed up.
I thought it was that he wasn't sure which was the fake, so decided to call the heroes' bluff.
>Why would the eight year old impressionable fox be outsmarted by an old man who happens to be a super genius?
Well, Tails himself is also a super genius but it makes sense that he's bad with that sort of thing since he apparently was alone most of his life until he met Sonic and the other people he knew weren't the most friendly. Chances are that Tails genuinely thought that Eggman found a way to detect a fake emerald with his tech and wanted Eggman to show him since he loves to brag a lot.
Since the FFs were brought up, reminder that Reboot Archie was great
>ties in the FFs with Sonic 1, 2 and 3
>nigel was a better dad
>No stupid romance plots, no Tails getting cucked by Sonic
>all of Penders' nonsense thrown out the window
>Eggman remains a threat while never going over board (i.e. Metal Virus)
>Egg Bosses give Eggman various henchmen to bounce off of
>the world is expanded with the Unleashed adaptation, humans and mobians mingle with no worries
I still miss it, but the past is the past.
I didn’t know the reboot series ran that long, I only got into it after IDW but I thought after the genesis wave it only ran for like a year or two
When I mean it ties in Sonic 1, 2 and 3 I'm mostly talking flashbacks as the Kingdom of Acorn is set in the same island of Sonic 1 and 2. The reboot has it's own setup issues (reintroducing the cast and showing off new ones) before doing the Unleashed adaption. THEN it got canned.
>m*bians
Honestly dude you should just stop with these threads as is it just incites people who make hating a cartoon blue hedgehog and anything regarding it their whole personality, these threads really do nothing but encourage them to just shit all over the property
There's only one piece of Sonic media that matters b***hes.
Is Tamers12345 the only creator who managed to make serious sonic material ?
It's literally the only good Sonic thing, yes.
Cringeic the Cringehog
What no Adventure 3 does to a homie
You and people like you don't give a shit about fricking anything, not even an argument to the contrary. Get fricked you worthless limp homosexuals.
Bejitabro, btw.
Just accept the deviant furry rat can't be taken seriously and its autistic fanbase like yourself has made it beyond-salvagable.
>In shambles because people laugh at my Paw Patrol goes to Vietnam fanfic
This is the same board that whines about quipy capeshit never having a serious moment
>REGARLDESS OF IF IT MAKES ANY SENSE OR NOT!
It makes perfect sense. You know this too, that's why you've sudden gone into an autistic tirade because you have no real argument otherwise.
>Sonic is literally the most recognizable video game character on the entire planet
lel
>Sonic is literally the most recognizable video game character on the entire planet
Isn't that Steve now, though?
Sonic is moronic and no one likes it. You homosexuals are as bad as bronies and you should be banned from Cinemaphile.
Because it's sonic.
They have a preconceived headcanon that Sonic started out as some Looney Tunes thing because they watched an episode of AoSTH or two.
He's designed after vintage cartoon characters, behaves like vintage cartoon characters, has a Bugs Bunny/Yosemite Sam dynamic with his main villain, and has storylines based around pop culture references
You can, it's just SEGA in its current state doesn't allow it as most sonic characters are emotionally shallow as a puddle save for some OCs.
Here's probably the most mature offical Sonic story you'll get.
It's kinda depressing when the soulless robotic copy of Sonic is allowed to have more depth than Sonic himself
damn this robot homie really trying to double robot himself jokes on you fool you're no organic
I think Secret Rings Sonic was a really good portrayal of him. They should have stuck with that
Because Sonic is a silly franchise with a silly hedgehog. Doing something more serious with it is puzzling to some people. It's also annoying because Sonic going serious... has not always been a good thing.
>SatAM
Eh, Idk why people rage about this show so much. It's really nice and fun for what it is, and it isn't too much darker than that one Care Bears cartoon from the 80's. Frick the Antoine episodes though. What was ABC thinking by forcing Ben Hurst to make those?
>Archie Sonic
Living proof that Serious Sonic can be fun and bring you to the edge of your seat... as long as Penders and Bollers aren't writing their love triangle and echidna bullshit.... But boy, seeing Shadow kick ass when Hope is in danger, Eggman taking a direct approach and beating the frick out of Sonic, the Freedom Fighters facing crazy stakes be it alien invasions, universe, reboots, etc. This shjt can be FUN and I couldn't get my face out of these stories.
>Sonic the Comic
Literally nothing wrong with these comics.
> Sonic X Season 3
Tell me how the best season of X is bad. Tell me
> SatAM: The Game (Forces)
The worst offender. They literally hired the Happy tree friends writers who don't know how to write shit other than furries dying over and over again. Hell, I swear that Sega let this game shit the bed on purpose to say "SEE! FREEDOM FIGHTER STUFF BAD! NEVER AGAIN!"
Game is so bad it feels like it was sabotaged.
TLDR, Serious can be good, can be exciting, can tug on your feelings and be very memorable... when the right people are doing the job and not weirdos or egomaniacs.
ALSO! If you want fantastic fan made examples of Serious Sonic being good, I recommend:
Ghosts of the Future by The Evan Stanley
And
The Murder of Me by Gigi-D
First one is really good but the the latter of these two blew me away. If you actually end up reading Murder of Me, do note, it concludes with a neatly put together animatic on YT.
IDW Sonic doesn’t feel as cringey as Archie Sonic when I read the archives of the first 50 issues of both last month with no prior knowledge.
Taken seriously in what way? A serious story being played straight? Nothing wrong with that.
Unless you mean shit like Shadow The Hedgeheg where characters start uttering PG-13 swears for no reason and/or fanfics where Sonic and the rest act like a parody of Chudow plus there's blood involved.
>Taken seriously in what way? A serious story being played straight? Nothing wrong with that.
You can't make a serious franchise with this as your protagonist. Even if you make a competent story.
I'll be first to admit Sonic has some good stories. Black Knight, ridiculous as it looks, has a good start, middle, end and even a good twist at he end.
The story fricking sucks because it stars Sonic. There is no way to make even a competent story look good when THIS is your protagonist and HE is the star of the show.
>Doesn't address the point
Concession accepted.
>It's really interesting how hellbent you people are on keeping Sonic shit.
Literally every game you idiots insisted Sega make dark and edgy has been shit. The best sonic game made in the last 20 years has been a 2D sidescroller made by an australian who didn't care about making a story for Sonic. It barely has one at all. But it's still fifteen times the game Forces is.
YOU people keep Sonic shit. You're the one who keeps screaming to the world as loudly as possible "I can make this edgy hedgehog game good". Yet, you never do. Sonic team can't do it. Your Sonic 06 "backstory" even if it was any good, is underminded by the fact it stars Shadow and Shadow is a ridiculous parody of 00's and 90's edge.
't address the point
2001 also isn't the 90s, concession accepted
now open up~
>Doesn't address the point
>Doesn't address a post I made
Concession accepted.
There's only one cure for your level of autism, Anon. Now, open up~
>Doesn't address the point
>Doesn't address the post I made
concession accepted
you really need to stick your medicine routine, anon! you don't want another episode, do you?
>Starting to reply to the voices in his head
Anon when did you start having hallucinations? Are you on medication for that?
Sonic the Hedgehog is your God and he is very angry, anon. You need to kneel and pray for his forgiveness immediately! HURRY BEFORE HE SMITES YOU WITH HIS HOLY SPIN ATTACK
Are the police aware of the danger you pose to your siblings and relatives while you're off your meds?
JESUS FRICKING CHRIST ANON HERE HE COMES AND HE HAS HYPER REALISTIC EYES START PRAYING FOR THE LOVE OF ALL FRICKING THINGS GET DOWN AND START PRAYING ONLY YOUR PRAYERS CAN FEND OFF HIS WRATH
Uh oh, it sounds like he's taken his pants off and is running toward barbara again. call elderly care.
>2001 also isn't the 90s,
woow so sonic must have been good by then, right?
people are clowning on you because your argumentation skills fricking suck. take your meds, and possibly finish middle school.
And what is your argument exactly?
>And what is your argument exactly?
sonic wasn't good in the 90's and the idolization of him is from kids who had sour grapes that they didn't own better consoles.
>oh no, anon, i've never even played the game.
lol
lol
lmao
NTA but you just conceded my point I was saying that the only times anyone has cared about Sonic at all was when he didn't have a 'dark, edgy story' and frankly, barely had a story at all.
That was the environment he was made for and attempts to twist him into "serious" games have ALWAYS ruined him.
Could we take a moment to appreciate just how fricking wondrously bizarre and awful Forces is? Every single thing about it looks like it was taken straight from a docket of "How do we make the worst game ever made?"
It's equal parts terrible boost gameplay, appealing to the worst fanbase in video games and comics, and having a terrible presentation in general. The fact this came out better than sonic 06 is actually some kind of miracle and proof Sonic Team isn't a bad dev, just mismanaged by absolute bozos.
I mean, I'm not a fan of Ian's work on Sonic but he does do good stuff.
Again the problem is that he's making stories for Sonic. When he was making Mega Man stories, all of that stuff fit just fine.
gee, i wonder if that's because the only times he barely had a story at all were those early 90s games. because Sega didn't care to put much of one in.
also you remember we're on Cinemaphile and not Cinemaphile right?
> because Sega didn't care to put much of one in.
Oh but they did, anon. I'm glad you're trying to steer this back to cartoons because it goes back to what I was saying before: even teh attempts to do dark and edgy stories even back when he was considered good come off as embarrassments today.
that was Sega of America, non.
to see Sega of Japan's story, you need to crack open a manual.
did you know that SoJ and SoA didn't like each other very much?
>popular = good
thus the sonic homosexual loses yet another argument.
That's exactly what he said, THO.
The Super Nintendo kicked the SHIT out of the Genesis and kids who flocked to Sonic to cope with their shovelware console of course idolize him because he was the one savior that didn't make them realize their parents had been scammed from buying better consoles with better games.
but anon, didn't you hear?
popular != good
you're not trying to say the SNES and Mario was more popular, are you...?
>popular != good
Anon has learning problems and believes the opposite of popular not immediately being good must be that all popular games suck. Feel pity for his disability.
>you're not trying to say the SNES and Mario was more popular, are you...?
They were actually neck and neck throughout the 90's. Thus why it's so cringe seeing people trying to flock to Sonic.
Okay but you'd be really dumb to imply or even think the Genesis is remembered fondly for its good games when no one even brings it up anymore because most of its games are just straight-up bad. Sure, those games are good, but what else outside of those do you even remember? Ranger X comes up to me and that's a game no one even bought.
>Thus why it's so cringe
Why, if they were neck and neck?
Because it's ultimate fox and the grapes.
Sonic fans do this a bunch, the last few good pieces of media for their franchise were:
>The Archie comics (Killed by Sega and revived again)
>Sonic Boom (A literal animated shitpost)
>Sonic Mania (Something not even related to Sonic team or their attempts to re-brand him)
And it's arguable if any of this is good on its own merits (Sonic Mania is fun, so it gets a pass) or if nostalgia isn't getting the best of people.
>fox and the grapes.
But what if you had both?
>Console Fanboyism
You're fricking cringe, and I say that as a kid who grew up on Nintendo consoles. Genesis had a lot of great games outside of the OG Sonics like Streets of Rage, Contra Hard Corps, Castlevania Bloodlines, Thunder Force, etc.
You're just blinded by nostalgia goggles and brand loyalty.
>You're just blinded by nostalgia goggles and brand loyalty.
Anon, we're in a Sonic thread. This is the peak of the mountain of cope nostalgia goggled brand loyalty and fanboyism on the internet. There is literally no group online that is more blinded by rose tinted glasses than Sonic fans.
SNES won in several things but lost in others. Case in fight: Due to the SNES port of Final Fight and Super Double Dragon being dumpster fires, beat gamers flock to Streets of Rage instead.
So how bad was it?
The most infamous part of the FF port is them cutting out a playable character (Guy). Keep in mind the original Final Fight only had 3 characters to begin with.
>"That thing you liked was never good"
Oh, so you're one of those
>The story fricking sucks because it stars Sonic. There is no way to make even a competent story look good when THIS is your protagonist and HE is the star of the show.
I can take Sonic a hell of a lot more serious than, say, Mario. Hell, I can take Sonic more serious than I would most modern AAA games.
>I can take Sonic a hell of a lot more serious than, say, Mario.
Why?
I guess the problem we're having is we have different meanings of the term "serious". Like when you say "Serious", a few times you've said the cartoonish final boss shit like Giant Dark "entities" or eldritch abominations he says one-liners towards and goes Super Saiyan to defeat.
That's not serious to me, that's as serious as Power Rangers.
>Like when you say "Serious", a few times you've said the cartoonish final boss shit like Giant Dark "entities" or eldritch abominations he says one-liners towards and goes Super Saiyan to defeat.
And the manga inspired stories in the Adventure games.
I wouldn't be able to take those stories seriously if it were Mario.
sad to say, but I'm hoping that the return of the original SEGA non-mascots will wean gamers off Sonic.
Nonmascots?
Shinobi, Golden Axe, Streets of Rage, Crazy Taxi, Jet Set Radio.
He means good games like Crazy Taxi, Golden Axe, IE: games for real people who like playing video games and not Ken Penders still making Sonic OCs in 2023.
Yeah, looks like Sega's trying to make some moves, doesn't it? I hope they pull it off. But, uh, you know the top selling Sega games of all time that WEREN'T Sonic were a Disney game, Mortal Kombat, a basketball game and Power Rangers, right?
Look what they did last time they tried to bring back one of the classics.
>Best selling
Doesn't mean anything when they routinely sabotage those other franchises.
Of all the sabotaged franchises, I think Jet Set Radio got it the hardest. Music game where Sega's incompetence means it couldn't come to a new platform.
Good thing the fans are here to right Sega's wrongs.
>Jet Set Radio
>Music game
At this point the only person I trust to write anything Sonic-related is Tyson Heese.
>Mooregay gets chased out of his own shitty spam thread
>even worse autists have taken over and are now overcorrecting by hating literally everything in the Sonic franchise and are bringing back the console wars
Cinemaphile is a cesspit
>Mooregay gets chased out of his own shitty spam thread
based
>>even worse autists have taken over and are now overcorrecting by hating literally everything in the Sonic franchise and are bringing back the console wars
there's not much in the franchise to like, unfortunately.
Can someone explain to me why this show has such garbage animation? The total and only CGI setpieces they made for the entire series are:
Green Hill (add grey filter, make trees bigger, delete trees and replace with grey rocks, or fill it with water, for your "alternate dimensions")
A road in New Yolk
Eggman's HQ room
Tails' empty wooden barn
Nine's empty grey "lab" (aka a room with nothing actually inside it)
Can someone explain to me how the FRICK they thought this was passable? It is the laziest shit I have ever seen in my life. Porn artists on Blender could make more sets than that. Nursery school cartoons I watch with my little brother like Backyardigans or Masha and the Bear make more sets than this. G-Mod and TF2 morons make more sets than this to put in their Youtube Poops.
Sonic Prime has to have the worst animation production I have ever seen in my life. How the FRICK did this happen?
Anon, nobody watched this fricking show. Even in a thread of Sonic autists desperately trying to tell everyone how cool their stories could be, not even they brought this up as an example. It's THAT fricking bad and you have done yourself a disservice by watching it.
Sonicgays have no standards and will slurp any slop up on all fours.
They knew this and shat out the laziest low-effort shit possible, and surprise surprise, Sonicgays had no standards and slurped up one of the worst CGI shows in history
Shadowgays bring it up as the one thing in the franchise that's writing him correctly, so there's that.
>How the FRICK did this happen?
That's something you hear a lot, in relation to Sonic.
But there is no mystery in this world. The answer to all questions is money.
This could've been the most interesting Sonic show yet but they took the most safe and boring route
The CGI is so bad it affects their writing.
They modelled nothing in Green Hill but just copy-pasted hills and trees, so there's nothing for Sonic to be homesick about except for "uhhh Green Hill had lots of hills and trees"
Which led to that weird fixation in multiple episodes about a random tree in Green Hill that Amy and Rouge keep acting like is super special.
Not because that's ever been a thing in the games, they just have nothing else in the entire show to talk about because their home is an empty cgi wasteland where the cgi trees are the only thing to talk about
Basically the moment from the end of Season 1 of Boom where Orbot and Cubot talk about how limited the settings are.
But Boom could somewhat get away with it because it basically became a sitcom with contractually obligated fight scenes.
I'm tired, so I will make it simple.
1. Millennials have been conditioned to be sarcastic & cynical at all times. We have all been trained through either peer pressure or bullying into thinking EMOTION BAD & SINCERITY BAD. Why this is, I don't know. Either we picked up where Generation X left off, or something about 9/11 making us hate mushy emotions, or Invader Zim & Foamy warping our humor. I dunno. Again, tired.
2. People wanting to look cool by beating a dead horse that's been dead for well over a decade by making fun of this stuff.
this. millennial writers can't manage tone. it's always quips, sarcasm, and insincerity
If you want to portray horrifying moments in children's fiction without crossing into edgelord territory, you need camp. And modern writers can't do that.
Isn't RTD Gen X or some shit?
It's not knee-jerk, it's entirely legitimate cringing.
Nobody here is denying that Penders's stuff was shit
Mooregay legitimately did. He had no idea why anyone would object to OP pic or Charmy Bee's friend overdosing on LSD.
they all did this shit. Ian took those plotlines and wrote entire years-long arcs about eugenics and brain damage and cuckery.
The games made Sonic more pretentious and self-important than ever saying "inspiration" instagram quotes to the audience along a backing track about sex and drugs
Sonic X was so tryhard about this shit it was almost a parody how hard they tried to push Sonic as a meme "deep" philosophical character for machildren
>The games made Sonic more pretentious and self-important than ever saying "inspiration" instagram quotes to the audience along a backing track about sex and drugs
>Sonic X was so tryhard about this shit it was almost a parody how hard they tried to push Sonic as a meme "deep" philosophical character for machildren
The frick are you even talking about?
please keep up with your own series, Sonic piggy
I literally watched and played the things your talking about. You're full of shit.
>Sonic was RUINED by having serious moments!!!
Then you must also agree that the only good Kirby games are the ones where King Dedede is the final boss.
>inb4 "Kirby was never good"
>whataboutisms
Fine then, Sonic is literally the only bad series ever made, even stuff like Brothers Grunt, Mega Babies, Cheetahmen, and Allen Gregory have more dignity.
Happy?
being moronic is not helping your case
Kirby's stories don't have any serious moments.
It's all tucked away in pause menus and gatcha figurine discriptions.
Kirby's fights against gods aren't serious. He, and the game, treats them like Kirby has just stumbled across them and that he needs to put them down to retrieve his cake or something.
Kirby rarely shows any strong emotion in the series, they've been flat and silent characters and everyone likes it.
Man Sonic Adventure 2 was so cool
OP's made this thread multiple times and he's gotten BTFO in every single one of them.
I don't even know why he bothers at this point. "Muh serious Sonic the Hedgehog stories" is such a weird hill to die on.
He's literally BTFO'd everyone in every thread he's ever argued this point on. The problem is that no one can actually address his points outside of whataboutism, strawmanning and shifting goalposts.
No he hasn't. He regularly says "WELL I DON'T CARE WHAT THE MASSES THINK" as though someone is going to rediscover Shadow the Hedgehog as great art someday.
His question about why people don't like serious Sonic has been answered several times: because Sonic usually fricks up its serious stories and churns out garbage like Sonic 06.
He's BTFO'd on the Brothers Grimm comparison
He's BTFO'd them on the "branding" argument
He's BTFO'd them on the idea that you can't tell serious with a cartoon hedgehog when a good writer can make someone relate to a literal toaster
He's BTFO'd them on the idea that a cutesy artstyle doesn't have an inherent tone and can't work with mature themes.
He's won.
>He's BTFO'd them on the idea that a cutesy artstyle doesn't have an inherent tone and can't work with mature themes.
I just think Sonic has consistently failed to do that.
Just pure incompetence.
Wow, people think Sonic is a bad series. Any other amazing and deep insight you have?
Should they think of Penders' echidna autism and Sonic 06 as high art or something?
>good writer
>mature themes
Sonic doesn't have those though.
>He's
Stop pretending you're a different anon, OP.
that's not the same anon, silly! it's his own original personality, Plonic!
any time a blue hedgehog comes up on his screen, the seizures start, and then Plonic comes out to play.
unless he can convince people Sonic can never be serious, the other him will be trapped inside his own personal hell: watching people ACTUALLY believe Sonic can be serious!
because Shadow ruined the entire franchise.
Aside from the armadas of autism that follow it around like some dark shadow from the underworld, a lot of sanic material is just pure dogwater or so bad its good type of stuff. Hell a big appeal of the movie was acknowledging how moronic and cringe so much of its background is, nevermind shit like Chris Chan. It failed at beating Mario so they tried backtracking a bit to make it a little more serious and broody, then made shit that practically defined early-mid 2000’s Deviantart Hot Topic tier edge. Its still amazing in the sense that it has a little something for everyone, but at the end of the day that reputation it garnered over the decades is not going anywhere.
>"N-OOOO YOU CANT HAVE SERIOUS STORIES WITH A CARTOON HEDGEHOG! NOOOOO!"
Anyone who says this demonstrates a serious lack of awareness of children's literature and storytelling throughout history. Asserting that putting mature themes in a children's story is wrong or misguided is basically at odds with most storytelling throughout human culture in almost any other time period and is probably the perspective of a sanitized person brought up on junk television and media, or whatever their excuse might be, ignorant of culture.
>"B-but Maria dies, that's so edgy!!"
Uh-huh. And? That’s bad because….cartoon game characters are escapist fantasy stories that shouldn’t deal with anything beyond the most basic power struggles? Again, totally unlike fairy tales throughout history over thousands of years where animals and children were killed or murdered or eaten etc etc, right? But video game characters must be pure because, why, exactly?
Sonic Adventure 2 and Satam are far more thematically and tonally similar to a traditional children's story than what passes for kids entertainment in mass media today.
Essentially there's no fricking way that these people would ever appreciate or recommend to a child Hans Christian Andersen, Liaozhai zhiyi, Brothers Grimm, Ozaki's "Japanese Fairy Tales", and so on. They admire a sanitized, simplistic world and consider the introduction of any supposedly "mature" themes a tonal intrusion. What they don't recognize is that this position is genuinely a 20th/21st-century sheltered-kid puritanical position that goes against the entire history of children's storytelling. Their criticism of Sonic Adventure 2 is focused solely on the fact that depression and grief has no place in a cartoonish world, but when cute animals dealt with these things in stories all over the world for centuries, I have to wonder how many other works in how many other cultures would be considered to be shit by their standards.
>multiple paragraphs to justify liking the stories of a cartoon cereal mascot
I don't get it, why do you need to justify yourself so hard?
>cartoony hedgehogs with superpowers can't have drama because I SAY SO, STOP ASKING QUESTIONS!!!!!!!!
You are embarrassing.
You need drama that fits with the source material, and every attempt the franchise has made at drama has been fricking awful.
Penders, Shadow, '06, Forces... it's all sucked.
Mario and Kirby are proof that you CAN make good drama with relatively cutesy characters if you do it well, but for whatever reason Sonic's always been fricking bad at it.
Yeah but for every Sonic Adventure 2 that Sonic made, there's five different things like Sonic 06, or Ken Penders' echidna stories, or Sonic Forces that have fallen flat on their fricking face.
Reminder that Frontiers with its "le deep story" attempts surpassed SEGA's expectations in sales, you can cope all you want but JRPG stories for Sonic are back on the menu
Honestly i like the autism plots for sonic, may as well embrace it and have him be cool
>thinking it's because of the story and not because 'Open World' is catnip for normalgays
Frontiers' story could be argued to be a decent serious-Sonic story, even if it was pretty generic.
Because it fails when it tries to take itself seriously
A game can have a silly style or tone while telling a mature story, Earthbound is an excellent example of this. Sonic doesn't work because the writing is fricking awful plain and simple.
>people can't take the story about scrimblo bimblo fighting nazis while shouting 90's era catchphrases
What a shock.
Sonic *is* taken seriously now. You're just mad it's not Archie that did it.
Oh look. You’re back.
The answer’s never changed by the way.
>NO YOU CAN'T USE THIS CUTESEY ANIMAL MASCOT FOR SERIOUS IT CAN ONLY BE OTHERS BEACAUSE UH BLURF GUH FFFRRRT
lol
someone gets REALLY upset that people enjoy Sonic, huh?
>maybe if I keep screaming the voices will stop
>maybe if I keep posting on the Internet I will kill Sonic
>NOW, X KNOWS THE MEANING OF WAR!!
>Ripping off the Martin Niemöller Holocaust poem for your fictional bad guys
>human Princess wants to frick a Hedgehog
>The President for some reason has a photograph of Sonic and Shadow on his desk
>Black Doom is a shitty one-dimensional villain
with a voice like a monster from an 80s cartoon
>Infinite, the pint-sized edgelord who acts like a parody of an anime villain
>Knuckles gets 80% of his army killed in Operation Big Wave
All this shit would be terrible even if the characters didn't look like something out of Mickey Mouse. Notice that people don't usually diss the well-written serious Sonic characters/plotlines, like Dr. Finitevus or Ian Flynn's Archie stories.
People have a knee-jerk reaction to serious Sonic stories because Sonic Team keeps fricking up at writing them. It's like asking why people have a knee-jerk reaction to new Star Wars media -- because Lucas and Disney have been churning out shit for the past 20 years.
Lest we forget, Sonic Team was always about hooking Sonic up with human women.