Why do so many people idolize Rorschach?
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Why do so many people idolize Rorschach?
Why do so many people idolize Rorschach?
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He was right and didn't back down from his principle's.
The "kill everyone and blame a squid" mentality is literally what the nazis thought. Oh hey better kill all these innocent people to create a better future, but keep it secret to only a select few.
Alan Moore would've supported the holocaust
Is that why the Americans genocided so many Japanese-Americans in their concentration camps?
Genocide means committed mass murder those Japanese-Americans camps were not mass murdered that German concentration camps were.
There is no proof of the Germans doing it either
>don't talk politics in a thread about a political comic
frick off
I accept your concession.
>He was right and didn't back down from his principle's.
This.
In a world where everybody else either sold out or gave up, Rorschach alone didn't compromise on his beliefs. He's the incarnation of justice, not for the benefit of himself or anybody else but purely because of justice itself.
Did you not read the backup material where Rorschach liked Truman for having the guts to drop the bomb on Japan, which is pretty much what the bad guy does?
The bomb is way more complicated than you'd think. Bombing an axis power during a war isn't the same as killing innocent people during peace time.
Why not?
Well because the Japanese government was AT FRICKING WAR! Do you understand how war and peace are different?
So wartime makes it ok to kill civilians?
You’re oversimplifying it, but yes war is a completely different kind of animal than peace.
So bombing civilians is okay because uhhh sweetie, it was a war and we just had to firebomb Dresden to the ground and nuke civilian populations, but it’s bad when during peace time we do the equivalent of bombing NYC in order to put a preemptive stop to inevitable WW3?
It wasn't inevitable. Read the fricking comic. Ozymandias is nowhere near as smart as he thinks he is. He's the man from the Black Freighter, and he only barely starts to realize it at the end.
It is inevitable because Ozymandias was established to be able to predict world events to a degree that he was able to dominate the stock market to a point it was entirely boring to him.
And the entire fricking point of the comic is that there is no one right answer, you goddamn moron. It’s purposefully left open ended so that you can view it any way you want.
>And the entire fricking point of the comic is that there is no one right answer, you goddamn moron. It’s purposefully left open ended so that you can view it any way you want.
Why does Moore seethe so much at people siding with Rorschach then?
It's less that one specific decision and more about people idolizing the character in general. People treat him like a hero whose methods are justified and overlook him being overly violent and batshit insane
>People treat him like a hero whose methods are justified and overlook him being overly violent and batshit insane
So?
Moore is the kind of person who idolizes Che Guevara despite him being an absolute psychopath war criminal IRL.
Dropping the nuclear bomb sorted the War by months and possibly years and save millions of lives especially Japanese the Holocaust multiple it is a groups of victims most famously the israelites but also gypsies gays Russians mixed ethnicity people people anyone who disagree with Hitler millions of Civilian lives who died because of crazy ideology.
It was the entry of the Soviet Union on 8 August into the war against Japan that forced surrender.
>the ultimate weapon didn't make the japanese surrender, it was the russians.
The bombs gave the japanese an excuse to surrender. Japan back then was radically different than what it is today, they weren't going to go along with a unconditional surrender.
It really sucks to hear, but bombing japan helped by letting it save face in a way.
The fact that it worked out for the best doesn't absolve the U.S. of threatening nuclear genocide of a nation if they wont surrender.
They never threatening to commit genocide by nuclear bombs not good day with the nuclear capabilities at the time they barely had the capability to make two nucleus at that time .
>The fact that it worked out for the best doesn't absolve the U.S.
Yeah and it doesn't absolve the japanese for nanking, but guess what, we as people recognize that war is different from peace times and try not to judge the entire country for it.
>threatening genocide
japanese propaganda told to civilians to keep them from wanting to surrender. Operation unthinkable was only suggested if the japanese would never surrender, it was called unthinkable because no one actually thought they'd go through with it.
A cold war isn't the same as an active one
The japanese were trying to keep land they took during the world wars, america said no, you have to give back the territories you conquered.
It isn't but it's still a war, and it was much worse one than the real world one. They were much more belligerent and closer to Armageddon, the US was colonizing countries in Asia. Regardless the moral logic is the same which is the point of the squid. Rather than negotiate more they chose to use the nuke as a show of force despite the surrender being inevitable anyway, the myth of the inhumanly honorable Japanese people being unwilling to give in was a myth. It was the leaders who made the choice and they were more than willing to give in since they did.
>nuke as a show of force despite the surrender being inevitable anyway
You know there was an entire fricking cue from the japanese to not surrender right? I don't think you understand how nationalistic the japanese were at the time. They were preparing their civilian's to fight soldiers with fricking sticks.
They were already sending out peace feelers. The big deterrent to them was the unconditional part, they were willing to negotiate. It was another bomb killing a few more meaningless civilians that made them give in it was a potential soviet occupation and being split between the allies.
>Operation unthinkable was only suggested if the japanese would never surrender, it was called unthinkable because no one actually thought they'd go through with it.
Operation Unthinkable was a plan for fighting the USSR in 1945-46. Operational Downfall (with subcomponents Operations Olympic and Coronet) was the planned invasion of Japan).
Nice fanfiction, though.
Japan already offered a conditional surrender before the nukes, and they received that after the bomb anyway. The big motivation for surrender was the threat of Soviet occupation which would've been way worse for the guys in charge, and people on the ground, then an American one. The Nuke was not necessary it was more a show of force to the commies and a test for the weapon itself.
How exactly did Japan have conditional surrender it seemed pretty unconditional to me and all aspects.
They got to keep their emperor and many of the military leaders and war criminals avoided a fate like Nuremberg.
Japan's empathy was never conditioned on surrender; it was just America choosing not to have a Vietnam situation in Japan if they killed him.There was also some Japanese war crime trials but they never had the notice of the notebook trials because people are racist and did not expect better from Agents it's the first place. Japan has a problem where they literally put World War II war criminals inside AJ Japanese tubes of spiritual significance but that was never condition of how they surrendered.
There were “peace feelers” to the Soviet Union from an important minority of the Japanese government, which is quite interesting and complicates the overly-simple picture of Japanese fanaticism that is often told about their refusal to surrender, but they don’t constitute, in any meaningful sense, a real offer to surrender. And they were certainly not an offer of unconditional surrender.
It is proof that the supposedly unmovable Japanese Samurai code demanding no surrender is bullshit and they could've negotiated a surrender and with the increasing turn of the Soviets towards Japan the nuke was unnecessary to get there.
The Soviets had no fricking navy with which they could invade Japan with. Japan hesitated in surrendering after the first nuke because it was unknown if that was the only bomb America had, and because the country was being run by psychos who'd rather burn the whole nation to the ground than give up. These people tried to throw a coup even after the Emperor was going to broadcast his surrender.
They did though. They had a whole Pacific fleet and more. They participated in the taking of Korea and other Japanese holdings. And they had the capacity build and transfer more. Japan was the one that had their entire navy and production capacity destroyed.
Japan wasn't going to win that war before Germany fell.The difference in power was it upset because the Soviet Union joined against them.
Can you explain why Truman announcing in advance he would nuke Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Dropping hundreds of thousands of leaflets over each city and warning the people in advance, and them claiming responsibility for it afterwards. Is somehow the same as Veidt blaming an alien squid race?
Because it isn’t the same at all. Unless your metric is “all mass death is the same”. In which case you better start complaining about how the Nazis got bombed and killed during WW2 because clearly context doesn’t matter
>backup material
Not canon
First of all, it's an essay he wrote as a kid.
Secondly, Ozzy is attacking a nation during peacetime without any kind of warning, on the gamble that the plot of a half-remembered Outer Limits episode will save the world.
There is a big difference between ruthlessly fighting in war, and committing murder because you're afraid.
Also, Rorschach's main point is that ordinary people DESERVE THE TRUTH. Rorschach is a guy who seems to have a lot of contempt for ordinary people and society at large, but he still genuinely believes that the truth should come to light.
He still supports Truman as an adult going by his narration. There really isn't much difference between the acts which is the point, the underlying moral argument is committing a heinous sin and murdering innocents in order avoid an even worse outcome in both situations. Rorshach is able to ignore or accept Hiroshima until he is confronted with the reality of that logic.
>bombing an enemy during war is the same as killing innocents during peace time
I'm starting to think some people lack critical thinking skills if they think these two actions are in any way equal.
They aren't at peacetime, they are in a cold war that is threatening to go hot any moment. Killing innocent civilians is morally wrong in both times though.
It's a simple matter in that he values American lives over Japanese ones.
It was either drop the bombs or risk over 2 million causalities and that's just US troops.
It’s unbelievable how many people are this illiterate
He was not right. He knew he wasn't right which is why he suicide's himself through manhattan. It's honestly amazing how people can see that seen and just completely misunderstand what's happening. Rorschach is being confronted with the morality of a grey world and he can't handle it.
>I think the genetically superior humans should be allowed to commit mass murder in the name of peace
>low iq people don't deserve to know what truth is
Yeah, he was wrong
Once again, trannies cannot go five seconds without bringing up hitler
Just admit you're gay for funny mustache man and you agree with him on some level
Most people would rather be right than happy.
This question has kept Moore up late at night for decades.
They too believe in the fairy tale of moral absolutism
>I think it's okay to kill millions of people then lie about it, because i'm smarter than everyone and knows it's for the greater good
To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to understand why lying about mass murder will objectively benefit the world
The whole deal about telling the truth wasn't because the truth would objectively benefit the world either, it was about punishing Veidt
No it's about how everyone deserves to know the truth. The world shouldn't be governed by a select few intelligent people.
Ozzy thinks he's god and above the common man, he thinks he can decide everyone's lives because he's genetically superior.
No, the truth should not be kept to only a handful of genetically superior people playing god
This only concerns truth as an objective good, with either the belief that truth will always lead to the best outcome, or that peace built on lies is worthless without considering the world was on the verge of WW3 (not inevitable, but still a dangerously close possibility). Mind you Dr. Manhattan himself, closest thing to God in that setting, goes along with this
>The world shouldn't be governed by a select few intelligent people
If the world was going to be nuked into oblivion, that decision would also have been limited to like a dozen powerful men deciding the fate of humanity
>truth as a moral good
It's about equality you dense frick. No one should have a monopoly on the fricking truth. No, you being smart doesn't mean you should be allowed to dictate truth to the masses. Low iq or high iq, everyone deserve to know what the frick is really going on.
>If the world was going to be nuked into oblivion, that decision would also have been limited to like a dozen powerful men deciding the fate of humanity
nice hypothetical but no, I don't think people with superior genetics should dictate how the world runs.
>No, you being smart doesn't mean you should be allowed to dictate truth to the masses
>I don't think people with superior genetics should dictate how the world runs
You're arguing ideals over practicality. And the current state of the world is already similar to that; it's not as if everyone is born with the same potential for governing and making the best choices for others
No but I don't think the mentally superior should dictate how everyone else gets to live their lives. That's not freedom, it's genetic based slavery.
Ok, fine, one could argue that one bomb was necessary. But two?
They didn't surrender after the first one
The original US planning would've involved 6-8 through November, plus an acceleration of conventional bombing, and indeed the last bombings happened almost a week after Nagasaki. The 8th Air Force that had burned Germany to the ground was in the process of transferring to the Pacific when the surrender occurred.
Weren't the fire bombings arguably worse than the atomic bomb?
No. Hiroshima and Nagasaki together were less than one percent of Japan's population, but 1/3 of the bombing fatalities.
Operation Meetinghouse/The Great Tokyo Air Raid had more fatalities, but Tokyo's population, even back then was in the high millions.
Because every single other character in the comic is terrible and is either a bloodless homosexual or a worse kind of extremist, it makes him look good in comparison.
He's cool. People are wrong in saying he never sold out. The reason he announces his plan and allows himself to be killed is because he realizes his principles are impossible to maintain and not worth it but he can't live without them.
So he doesn't adapt his principles to the world and dies? He is a sick man that only fought for justice due of his romantic values.
Japan was never going to surrender. Japan at the time was indoctrinated from an early age to revere the Emperor as a living deity, and to see war as an act that could purify the self, the nation, and ultimately the whole world. Within this framework, the supreme sacrifice of life itself was regarded as the purest of accomplishments. Japan had given civilians bamboo spears to fight with. Japanese leadership was blinded by pride and tradition, they could not admit defeat until they faced the grim possibility of atomic annihilation.
He has a picture of a happy family having a picnic on his face whats not to like
He was right about most things, like how it's humans and their nature who cause suffering and destruction in their own world and the only way to address it is to fully commit as an individual to a lifestyle that prioritizes justice and truth above all else. Rorschach lives like a homeless person but it's by choice rather than by circumstance. This commitment is especially important in a world run and maintained by weak, cowardly, and unintelligent people who would rather sell out their beliefs for security (which led to the alien bombing and rampant crime). He also never compromised and was willing to die when he realized that his philosophy and way of life were incompatible in a world where people like Veidt are heroes. He was also an autistic schizo who believed things even if he might lose friends and respect from his society because of them, which is something a lot of people here seem to identify with. As other anons said most of the characters in watchmen range from being pathetic to outright deplorable so Rorschach stands out as a beacon of righteousness despite being a lunatic. He also just had a really cool design which helps. The fact that he's constantly masked and believes himself to be Rorschach and not Walter, could be interpreted that anybody could be Rorschach, with powers or money not being a necessity.
The Japanese during WW2 were basically Klingons.
Honestly you can condemn both. I mean, thousands of innocent children, babies even, who had nothing to do with the war were instantly incinerated. Does that make what Japan did ok? No. But it feels weird that people see the nukes as "justice" when the only victims were civilians and the actual war criminals who committed the atrocities against the Chinese mostly got off totally scott free.
I think people like (not idolize) Rorschach because he sticks to his convictions and that those beliefs are rooted in a lot of pain. The Comedian caused pain, and has some regrets, but until the very end he kept a very selfish and cynical view. In his final moments, I think he starts to see that it's not a joke anymore. Nite Owl II had a decent life and in the end even gives up and starts to realize Ozy may be right. Manhattan obviously changes his views on humanity, so much so he flip flops between indifference and caring until ultimately killing Rorschach to preserve Ozy's plan. He had a tramatic death but is obviously moved on from it. But he changed his views. Ozy had a great life and built a world for himself. But his real big accomplishment is realizing he can't save humanity without destroying some of it. He went from thinking he could save the world by fighting street gangs to killing millions. He had to make changes in his philosophy. Rorschach didn't. I don't agree with his views. He's too conservative, racist, and a bit of a jerk. But I get why he is, because of his past. And in the end, when everyone including the blue god, is changing their mind, Rorschach stays true to his ideas. I guess a lot of readers, myself included, can at least admire someone who has been through something and sticks to their guns. Right or wrong.
>damn look at all those israelites dying in the camps
>but it'll bring peace back to Europe so let's just change our morals to accept this new normal
Every character besides Rorscach would play along with the nazis and turn israelites into the worlds squids.
Rorschach was right in saying that none of it would have happened if Dr. M. just cared from the start, and it was very much Ozy's fault that he decided to leave.
Nite Owl is actually the best Watchmen character.
Jesus Christ, shut the frick up and stop making this thread.
Because he is right!
Fat lot of good it did him.
Indeed!