Why dont we see proper sword fighting in films? Why is it just people uselessly bashing at plate armor with a sword as if it could cut through it?
Why dont we see proper sword fighting in films?
Why dont we see proper sword fighting in films? Why is it just people uselessly bashing at plate armor with a sword as if it could cut through it?
Precisely
Why not on film or tv?
killing with the point of the sword lacks grace
in armor once the weapons became locked one of them would probably grapple the other and try to take them down to the ground and stab them with a poignard
disarm at 21 seconds is unironically more kino looking than the vast majority of Hollywood sword choreography
yeah its pretty easy to disarm someone if they just intentionally miss you then go limp while you take their sword away
he wasnt limp the other guy grabbed the hilt of the sword locking him there, at that point the only thing you can do is either to try and force the sword away which he tried to do or let go of the sword and run
its a legit tactic used in medieval times
Sezuire inducing shit
>Duuuuuuude, what if, yeah duuude listen, what if sports dueling stances but in full armour... I know right fricking revolutionary!
bashing at people is way way more realistic
Are they moronic ?
No anon. They're warriors.
>cancel fight at the first sign of blood
They're larpers
Just a typical day out with the lads
Yes, my favourite bit of that video is the dude with long hair in a My Little Pony shirt sharpening his sword at a grindstone. German autism at its purist.
What's the full vid called?
Holmgang Hamburg - Scharfe Zweihänder und Stiche in die Fresse - Fencing with sharp swords
Cheers.
Intelligent people aren't put in military roles, see police.
Woman detected.
Reckon they just figured out why they invented armour besides the helmet.
Why are these morons fighting with sharpened swords and no armor except on their heads?
They want to get cut. Get deep enough into any fighting sport and you will always find the idiots who are in that weird intermediate skill phase in which they want to prove themselves and have decided that ignoring safety gear is more badass.
They had to get it on.
Gay AF
>rare cases of realistic swordfights
>Gay AF
lmao, way to prove
right
And it was all downhill from here for Sir Ridley.
Wait is that Joel Kinoman?
Keith Carradine and Harvey Keitel. The Duellists by Ridley Scott. Kinnaman was two years old when the film came out.
Just watched this for the first time.
It was fricking kino.
WTF the stabbed guy is very visibly holding the sword under his arm in the final scene, it even moves with his arm, was it in the final version of this movie? LOL
Nah it is through his shirt, still not the same angle as the stab that is shown but at least not as bad as holding it like it was a school play
That’s from the duelists which is a great movie after you just watched Barry Lyndon and need to keep that feeling going
Jesus Christ hold the camera still this looks like shit.
Although 'The King' was shit it's battle at the end was fairly accurate.
But don't watch it, it has that french homosexual chamalet as Henry V and there's a truckful of better Henry V movies
It wasn't.
were Muay Thai kicks really that prevalent in the old sword and shield manuals
In the format those two are competing in it makes total sense.
Right boot.
Training and choreo is too much, they would rather just do 7 million cuts.
low budget milla jovovich euroaction isn't really a typical example
It's the same for Marvel muttslop
>Stuff!
>Things!
>Excitement!
Fricking christ, I can't even watch the entire webm.
ha, had the same experience
Good to see that stop motion animation is still live and well today
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This channel is awesome if you want to see what a proper 1-on-1 duel might've looked like. Spoilers: often devolves into wrestling and finishing off with a dagger
>Spoilers: often devolves into wrestling and finishing off with a dagger
realistic
This is why the japs attacked random peasants, so they can go oh my subarashi sword technique.
I bet if an actual knight was able to see this he'd think they both look like uncoordinated morons. Must have been a whole other thing entirely to see two men fighting who've both spent their entire lives training for that one purpose, with weapons and armour.
You do realize there's zero spinning in a real swordfight, right? They're not very exciting. Of course it looks "clumsy," armor does an amazing job at deflecting blows. How do you think a knight actually kills another knight? Do you think swords were lightsabers that just slashed clean through armor at the right angle?
https://youtube.com/shorts/9ZAVQQwPHWg?si=CzwRDDLFX0mNdm0E
shortbros... it's over...
Because the point of movie isn't authentic simulation of skill and technique, it's conflict between characters along a narrative path
>it's conflict between characters along a narrative path
then why not just have them on a bare stage in their street clothes
The set dressing is inter-film competition and doesn't improve the quality of the film, just its draw to the audience
I’ve thought a ‘John Wick: late medieval armor autism’ style movie would be cool.
it goes into equilibrium tier gun kata pretty quickly
would not want that
Kingdom Of Heaven indulges in this a little.
>A blade isn't the only part of a sword!
for under 10 seconds then its back to the usual shit
you're insufferable
Apparently they really raped that scene in the cutting room. There was so much more of the good stuff in there.
>why don't movies put in the effort to cater to 17 people all of whom live in their parents' basements and don't actually go see movies in the first place
There's nothing wrong with striving to be more accurate. It appeals to few but could be a selling point in and of itself for being unique. So you can imagine better, what if screens on phones were more realistic or gay sex was unsimulated?
typical buttblasted autist
you are irrelevant, your desires are irrelevant, your thoughts, feelings, fears are all irrelevant
we don't waste money on including facets that appeal to dogs and we certainly won't waste it on lesser creatures like yourself
>lets do things differently
>hurr durr autism
>we don't waste money
Who's "we," anon? Are you in the industry?
hema dudebros are insufferable
As a former longsword and rapier instructor, yes I agree. I eventually left the hema scene because the vast majority of dudes in it are insufferable autists either too fat or too skinny to move around.
Hema autists are like any autist: they promote their own ego-centric idea of "realism" above all other aesthetic or stylistic considerations, but since they're autistic it ends up being unrealistic anyway. Impossible to interact with.
Pretentious c**t.
See
Way to prove his point. They put a kickboxer in memema armor and the autist who reads manuals all day let himself get kicked in the head on his fricking shield side because he is an uncoordinated unathletic nerd.
That's not even hema armor or hema. You're talking out of your ass.
Oh so its that slavshit where football hooligans that do mma just fricking jump the shit out of american and euro sissies. Hema is still gay you fricking nerd. Did your manuals also teach you to suck dick.
The point was
>Too skinny or too fat to move properly
you spastic
The guy who got kicked was exactly that you dumb frick. Just stood there like an idiot and let a guy walk into his range and didnt even bother trying to block the obvious attack on his shield side.
Are you fricking thick? The fact that a HEMA fighter can kick another fighter in the head immediately disproves the ‘all HEMA fighters re too fat/skinny to move’. The opponent doesn’t enter into it at all.
It’s like watching Tyson thrash McNeely and saying ‘that just proves all boxers are bad at fighting’.
Fricking real idiot hours up in this thread I fricking swear to god.
>Hema
That other moron just proved you wrong when he said Battle of Nations type shit isnt hema.
The clubs curriculum and the way the jocks who win shit train are two different things. Otherwise you are claiming dumb shit like kodokan judokas train strictly jigoro kanos judo for competition. Non athletic nerd confirmed.
>splitting hairs
Do frick off to your cuckshed, there’s a good lad.
>there’s a good lad.
At last the *nglo dweeb exposes itself. Too fat for five a side with the lads and too pussy and not gay enough for rugby. Lmao ar your life nerd.
They didn’t actually fight like this on the battlefield. That shit was purely for show/training
duels were real
legal disputes could be settled with duels
they trained out of armor as much as in armor, because if they set upon by thugs while out in the wild they'd need to defend themselves and this is how
Lmao no. “Thugs” just stabbed them with daggers or shot them with arrows. Long swords were a meme
If you walk on the street with bow and quivers, the guard would likely have few words with you.
If you attack man with a sword using a dagger, the swordsman is probably gonna cut your hands off.
Brigands attacked people on the road, not in town. A single rope laid across a road combined with two or more assailants armed with only daggers could frick up any broad sword wielder, especially at night.
>lay in hidin at night
>hopin to ambush some carter folly nuff to be wadin about in pitch dark
>gets mauled by wolves
The real answer to this is that a wealthy nobleman (knight) wouldn't be wandering around the country lanes on his own without some kind of retinue. There were far easier pickings for brigands than trained soldiers, which is ultimately what knights were.
Most knights were not wandering around in armory all the time with an armed retinue.
longswords evolved as men-at-arms wore more and more plate
you cant stab someone who has a staff or sword which many commonly would have carried
in army it would have been a more formal lines with spear and pike formations
but they did in individual and small scale combat
now people are being attacked by wiley fricking coyote
and brigands would attack wherever the opportunity presented itself
this is why people commonly traveled with swords
a man-at-arms - a knight was a title - was the retinue of the wealthy
>bashing plate with a sword is exciting
swords were ver expensive. People traveled as commonly with swords as people do nowadays in luxury sportscars.
People like you are the types who see ancient martial arts and think that people actually fought that way. It’s cute really
Who the frick is saying duels are the same as war?
Who gives a shit about le duels? You would be too low born to ever participate in them anyways.
It was for self-defence and duels. Jousts were for show. They didn't fight like that on the battlefield because unlike films everyone doesn't break off into 1v1s
>Jousts were for show.
Cavalry charges with lances was a real thing in the middle ages.
That's what it originated from but jousting tournaments were a very dangerous show sport, like fighting vs. boxing. They used specialised equipment that didn't see battlefield use like fixed helmets, armour that was much heavier than the norm and the blunt lance made of soft wood that would break on impact
They did. The accounts exist: if you had full plate armor, you were basically unkillable unless you got taken down to the ground.
Dunning-Krueger in full effect.
They don't show accurately show how battles were fought either.
Two side just run at each other with swords, no formations or tactics at all.
People are dumb and want to see starwars sword fights. They were more likely to go into battle with a hammer or axe than a sword.
Because it's boring. There's a reason why fencing and HEMA are so unpopular compared to other sports.
In real life swordfights are just two dudes moving around touching the tips of their swords until one finds an opening to attack. An armoured swordfight lasts even longer since the weak spots for thrusting are known by the fighting parties, and chainmail and plates are basically invulnerable to swordcuts.
The result is two dudes trying again and again to poke the weak spots and parrying until one side is too tired and forgets to parry a very anti-climatic killing blow.
Normalgays want to see spinning dudes without a helmet or armour dancing, grunting and clashing blades mid air for no logical reason.
And god forbid you add actual historical killing blows-techniques like trapping your opponent's sword and finishing him with a dagger (like what Jaime Lannister did in the first GoT season), because that's uncool and if your character does that he's a cheating buttholes with no honour.
You only say that because the duels are not to the death
I want punching with the hilt or guard, wrestling, pressing the blade against the neck, pummelling with the pommel of the blade, elbowing, punching with the shield, pushing and pressing with the shield, chokeholds and so forth. HEMA doesn't really allows this
Sans shield, I've seen all of this done at tournaments.
Half-swording negates that 100% of the time.
It happens, occasionally, but the reason it's rare is because it's a regulated sport. Even in duels it was not very "knightly" to just pin someone down and bash his skull with the pommel of your sword.
Indeed it kinda defeats the whole point of a duel, since you defend your honour and demolish the opponent's reputation with your swordsmanship.
In battles, however, what you just described was more the norm. In battle it was not unusual to grab the blade and use your cross guard to hook an opponent's shield and expose him so that other soldiers in your rank could hack him.
Because Hollywood is literally fricking moronic when it comes to melée combat.
Ask me why this stupid fricking girlboss garde is worthless for both offense and defense and will get you fricking killed in real life.
t. Full contact HEMA combatant
>HEMAgay pretending he's any authority on medieval combat
You're all glorified larpers looking for an excuse to dry hump other men.
I also have three years’ sabre and epée from university so whatever.
That's a hanging guard you know that. She compensates for her lack of power with leverage.
Yeah that's what irl 9 year old girl swordmasters did historically
There are no duels in warfare or battles. People stay in formation or they die. In real warfare you would have your own men to your sides and behind you and you would occasionally strike out with your sword or spear hoping to get lucky but mostly defending yourself from blows. Casualties are low and it continues indefinitely like this until one side gets spooked enough and one side runs enmasse while the other tries to kill as many as possible. That is when 80+% of casualties in a battle will occur
There were duels in wars between the Greeks, Romans, Iranians, and Arabians. There were also judicial duels and duels over passes
>gets mogged by guy with sword and shield
Star Wars
The Princess Bride
The Three Musketeers
Braveheart
First Knight
Die Another Day (featuring guy from Black Sails)
The 13th Warrior
Gladiator
Troy
300 Rise of an Empire
Pirates of the Carribean
Black Sails
Spartacus
Vikings
I think like the ninja genre, anime has taken a over nearly entirely.
I've heard how famous Flynn was but not what actual movies are supposedly famous.
>catch the guy's weapon with my armored hand
>pull him close to me, hug him basically
>the fight is now over, we might struggle, but we aren't killing or getting killed
This is what happened 90% of the time. Sword fights are a joke.
Where does this "HEMA people are all out of shape nerds" idea come from? The top 500 dudes on hema ratings are all basically pro athletes. The Russians especially go all in on the "JUST HIT THEM REALLY, REALLY FRICKING HARD" strat; Kultaev was notorious for breaking protective gear with how hard he goes.
Hell, looking at the top 10 or 15 and there's several guys who are just straight up ripped. Kool basically does a 2 meter standing jump from a lunge with how strong his legs are.
baka nerds projecting again
The average hema dork is just that. Competition always seperates the wheat from the chaff so of course athletically gifted chads will dominate the rankings since its a head to head confrontation where you have to physically impose yourself on the opponent and the judges. They arent worried about the historical autism in competition just how they can beat c**ts under the ruleset like all other competitive fighting sports.
What exactly is the "average hema dork"? Because the average tournament is like 6 hours of continuous exercise. And a good third of the top 50 on hema ratings are staunch "read the source material, moron" advocates. Hell, Gothenburg is one of the "strongest" clubs around and they only practice the way the manuals say to.
‘The average HEMA dork’ is used to lugging 20+ kilos of armor and weapons and swinging hard blows, sometimes for several hours a day. So you just know anyone who claims all HEMA fighters are out of shape is probably a seething BJJ homosexual who wouldn’t last three minutes in even an entry level HEMA match.
>20+ kilos of armor
homie plz. Authentic armor wasn't that heavy then and certainly what people wear in hema now doesn't come close. Heavy armor is a hollywood meme. People could swim / do handstands and somersaults while wearing armor.
20kg is pretty accurate actually
Note the phrase ‘armour and weapons’.
Armour plus shield plus weapon adding up to around 20kg is absolutely on point.
I'm not sure why I got this so wrong. Probably because I spent a lot of time researching 16th century when a lot of armor was obsolete. But yeah 13th century even had up to 35kg sometimes. My bad.
Because the ""realistic"" and ""historical"" fighting fad looks fricking shit. No one wants to watch larpers jumping around.
2 words: Training and Insurance
Both cost time and money. And you're talking about the industry that has the witcher fight with a swordless hilt in his hand and puts in the blade in post.
>And you're talking about the industry that has the witcher fight with a swordless hilt in his hand and puts in the blade in post.
for real?
jesus christ
well it's just the hilt, but you get the gist:
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Someone should instruct the king his fighting style could use improvement. Unless he has insane cardio training he'll tire himself out if he does this on the battlefield (medieval battles are known to go on for days at a time). He needs to learn how to parry attacks instead of always rerlying on dodging. It might look cool in sparring but dancing around the opponent like that would wear you out quick.
Not to mention due to battle formations he won't have as much floor space to do these dodge maneuvers and footwork.
Fricking autist
He thought he was unkillable.
>15th century plate armor
>13th century great helm
Dishonest
that was his grandfather's helm and you'll show respect!
Kino
kino of the highest order
KINOOOOOOOO
what movie
Roman Polanski's Macbeth. It's incredibly good, although possibly responsible for the medieval filter of modern times.
Gun troops required extensive training. Stay mad about it.
So why didn't his buddies 6v1 Macbeth? Or if they're the King's guards why aren't they killing the assassin?
what about this scene?
Pretty shit ngl. Like a slower version of old kung fu flicks.
yeah but is it actually realistic?
Why they don't simply blow everything with gigantic explosions?
Because actors are theater kids. They lack the athleticism and rigor it takes to learn a martial art I'm their own time and choreography never looks quite right because they don't give it enough time to perfect the takes. They would rather spend the money on a bigger actor than put the cast through 6 weeks of actual training with world class instructors. When they claim a movie did that, they are full of shit
Because Hollywood doesn't give a shit and audiences slop it up anyway. They can't get unarmed combat or guns right either, even though those are things regularly seen in the modern day.
because it’s boring christcuck dark ages morons hitting eachother with pointy sticks, it’s not badass
We don't get any form of proper fighting anymore, choreography has gone stale. I suspect the US has a handful of groups of stuntmen/choreographers that just sell the same shit to everybody. Pay attention you will see that it's the same fight over and over again, the same moves etc. It's even worse with women since they probably have a more limited pool of stunt workers and everybody is still convinced that the "wrap your legs around the villain's neck and spin around" takedown looks impressive.
I liked the fight choreography in lotr for the most part, and it wasn't really going for strict realism. For characters other than Legolas, the fights are wild and energetic. They feel dangerous and unpredictable. Hollywood hasn't produced action like that in years and trying to get them to focus on realism won't change it.
Real sword fights are really short and anticlimactic. Audiences expect fights to last for a little bit to have more dramatic weight.
>20kg of armor
that's nothing. I see dudes carrying around an extra 120kg of flesh every time I go to walmart.
bump
I don't understand why guns got employed as early as they did. Sure they were easier to master, but horseback riding is too. Why not just create hordes of horse lancers instead of using inaccurate black powder guns that don't penetrate armor and are slow to reload?
They tended to explode without warning.
Metallurgy wasn't quite there yet
Good luck dodging or parrying a goddamn musket ball when you have a wooden shield and plate mail
I'm convinced they kept at it so long because they made an impressive amount of smoke and noise
I suppose. They do use smoke grenades I guess. Just seems inconvenient to hire expensive gun specialists for that little benefit.
The benefit was actually huge and regularly decided battles, hence the specialists being so expensive in a free market.
Gun manufacturers paid off generals to employ gun only battles.
From what I've heard the amount of training needed was magnitudes lower. Learning the skills of a cavalryman takes a really long time. You also had heavy guns which were incredibly useful in sieges and for demoralizing the enemy. You can find academic books about the introduction of them in Europe if you're interested.
This also.
This mainly. Guns are the ultimate battlefield equalizer. Only training you need is how to reload it and how to point & pull a trigger.
Gun troops were extensively trained and drilled professionals in this period. Governments spent a lot of money training them or hiring them.
They spent dosh because they needed mass troops drilled to a certain standard and discipline. The actual act of fricking loading and firing the burner was easy enough for any moron to learn.
That's moot if they require so much additional training to be effective on the battlefield, which history shows they did.
It would be marching and formation training and drilling. The shoot and reload part is easy you dumb frick. Even now just ask a zogbot how much actual training time is spent on the rifle and range overall.
How are you the one calling me the moron here?
>(You) Only training you need is how to reload and shoot it
>It was universally agreed by contemporary military experts that high standards of training and discipline were essential for gun troops to be effective
>(You) but learning to shoot and reload is easy
>Yes but being able to shoot effectively in a battle was much more difficult and costly
>(You) but learning to shoot and reload is easy
Did you forget what you originally said? Firearm troops in the middle ages and renaissance were the furthest thing from loosely trained rough n ready irregulars, and the whole trend of military development at the time was to greater professionalism and drill with modern weapons. Far from a battlefield equalizer.
Autism. Learn to read asswipe.
Horses are difficult to maintain, you moron. It's not like a video game where you park it like a car and never think about it. Back then, horse riders were responsible for their mounts. Officers didn't just hand them out to every recruit that signed up. You have to shelter them, feed them, ensure they don't get stolen. They aren't even usable in warfare until they get to a certain age, then you have to train them.
this is correct. and the supply of horses in western europe was limited as well.
Those horse lancers would be stopped by a pike wall, augmented with guns. This was the meta for around 150 years.
>easier to master
Than what?
guns were in the beginning fortification weapons, not battlefield weapons. Those horse lancers are useless in a siege.
You can just watch every movie that William Hobbs worked on and you'll have seen the best
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Hobbs_(choreographer)
>disgusting hemagay thread
because the quality of a movie has nothing to do with that
>Movies should be about homosexuals talking about how badly the want to suck each other's dicks
This is you
Harsh but true answer, it's because a real sword fight would be over in less than a minute.
And it wouldn’t be exciting to watch, it would probably leave you with trauma.
Why do hemagays have such an inferiority complex lmao
>swords
gay! blunt weapons are cooler.
I recently saw Macbeth performed live in Norwich and the guy playing Macduff had the best most booming shouting voice I've ever heard. Him going "AWAKE!!!!!" with a sword in hand on stage was brilliant that I don't think I could watch another rendition of Macbeth
There are still a few old time Shakespearean actors kicking around in an industry soon to be fully buried in third world transsexuals at the behest of smug champagne socialist female/numale producers. Enjoy the classical thespians while they last.
it's to discombobulate your opponent so that you have an opening to do those moves. duh
Yeah I saw that video too OP, we're algorithm besties 🙂