Why is Return of the Jedi not as well liked as the 1977 original and Empire Strikes Back?
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Why is Return of the Jedi not as well liked as the 1977 original and Empire Strikes Back?
Normalgays got filtered by the Ewoks.
It's the weakest of the trilogy, grow up. I didn't know people hated the Ewoks, makes me wonder why Jar Jar was even in the prequels. I was the target demographic for those films and I thought he was annoying then.
It's the strongest of the trilogy, grow up.
IV is the best Star Wars film ever made.
I love Star Wars (1977) aka A NEW HOPE and works great as a standalone, but it just doesn't have that almost-refined look that 1982 afforded Lucas's galaxy that is present in Revenge/Return of the Jedi.
I slashed that because it turns out that it was released as Revenge of the Jedi in at least one Japanese home video release and possibly a French theatrical release.
>IV is the best Star Wars film ever made.
it, just like ESB, is a fun adventure romp but ultimately they are meaningless movies on their own. they only get meaning retroactively, through luke and vader's story in ROTJ
This is absolutely the correct position. In ESB, all that training on Degobah shit drags, to say nothing of that idiotic fight with exploding helmet Vader. And even before that we have the cutesy Yoda stuff before he reveals who he really is. Only complaint with ANH is how lame the Vader/Obi Wan duel is. Other than that, pure kino.
>he couldn't appreciate the kino first act and emperor scenes
I like Ewoks, but I get the issue. It's the empire, they ruthlessly sacked Hoth. Ewoks shouldn't be a problem. I think Lucas should have gone one step further, had some of the Ewoks be like shaman and use magic. Luke could have said something about it not really being the force and it could give them an edge. It also would have lent to Luke leaving his friends.
Which is another issue. Leia was never meant to be Luke's sister. They planned to add another female character, but Lucas didn't want to add that subplot and end the movie. So he said frick it, and made Leia the sister. I think he could had added the sister character though. Had her be a co-pilot that worked with Lando. Establish a scene here and there, gets some dialogue. Then hell, we might have had an episode 7 in the 90's cause people would want to see more.
Chatgpt, that is a terrible idea for the sister character being Lando’s pilot.
Did you work on the sequel trilogy at all?
The co-pilot character used in the film was superfluous. It was just a mushroom face Chewbaca. Luke could have met some of the new pilots at the rebel base. As Luke is a great pilot, but does not do any dog fighting in Return of the Jedi. The fleet needed him, but he was absent. Their could have been a force connection, like was written in the movie. There are deleted scenes of Vader speaking to Luke through the force, but these were cut. Lando could have also been a romantic love interest to the new sister character which causes Luke to resent Lando in episode 7.
I think making Luke and Leia be brother and sister was a clever way to resolve the love triangle subplot, even if people think it's squicky that Leia kissed her brother. Han and Leia can be a couple and Luke and Leia also love each other as family. Han, by extension, becomes Luke's brother-in-law and part of his family. The books did it one better by giving Luke his own love interest and eventual wife.
To the people who keep wanting to go back and re-litigate Lucas's decision to make the Luke Skywalker story a trilogy rather than a hexology, I would say go back and look at what the original Star Wars movie was before it became a shooting script. Even the version that Fox greenlit was significantly different from the story that we are all familiar with. Having a basic idea for what all three stories will be is essential (as proven by the Disney Trilogy, which had no pre-planned arc for the three movies), but from the time a first movie is a hit and the third goes into production, there's a tremendous amount of things that can change, and the creatives will have to take advantage of that elasticity to make the best movie they can. It's not like adapting from a novel where someone has already spent several years writing out the story, creating the story and the films are part of the same process, and it has to be done three times.
>I think making Luke and Leia be brother and sister was a clever way to resolve the love triangle subplot
You're honestly objectively wrong. It is one of the things that bugs people about RotJ. It's not clever, it's lazy. I don't mind it, I don't care, I'm too young to have ever known Leia as anything but Luke's sister. Characters can resolve love triangles themselves without sudden revelations of their family history.
>clever way to resolve the love triangle subplot
There wasn't really anything to resolve. TESB makes it pretty clear that she's in love with Han.
>Leia was never meant to be Luke's sister. They planned to add another female character,
no that wouldnt work. how do you make the audience believe even for a nano second that goody two-shoes luke could ever fall for the dark side? other than the sister leia corruption threat? it's a stretch but it's required for the perfect finale on the death star
You make Vader sense his daughter out in space with Lando. The whole Leia/Vader face off now hinges on retcons and head canon. That Vader did not sense his own daughter with the force.....
Interestingly enough, the Ewok shaman Logray uses the Force it in the Ewoks cartoon so Ewoks can be Force-sensitive.
Ewoks are an analogy for the Viet Kong.
Cong, anon. VC! Dad just said that they were known as "The Cong" in Vietnam.
>inb4 di di mau and asiatic slurs
Low tech defeats high tech.
By George, you’re right.
This
>It's the empire, they ruthlessly sacked Hoth. Ewoks shouldn't be a problem.
You literally got filtered. That's the whole message. These overconfident technologically advanced buttholes got BTFO by nature. It's a tale as old as time and perfectly fitting with "This technological terror you've built is insignificant next to the power of The Force".
UNIRONICALLY BRAVO GEORGE
Yea but like, show the Ewoks using the force.
Anyone who expected a sincere movie got filtered by the Ewoks.
Shut up, ghost of Gary Kurtz go be an Amish specter somewhere else.
Wasn’t it supposed to be chewbaccas or something?
Ewoks were part of the earliest drafts for Return, and they were always diminutive tribal creatures, but some of the early concept art had them as little goblins or gnomes like yoda, or sometimes ratlike or birdlike creatures, the teddy bear look wasn't finalized until Lucas stepped in, but that had to be at least as early as 1981 since that's when shooting began
Thanks anon
Because nothing happens in Endor
Nobody likes the ending of anything. Everyone is always left unsatisfied pretty much no matter the franchise.
>Nobody likes the ending of anything. Everyone is always left unsatisfied pretty much no matter the franchise.
Underrated and probably the truth.
Having said that, that just goes for online tryhards of today since Jedi crushed in the theaters and was so good it made everyone sad that there weren't any more coming ever, or so we thought.
Look at the ratingraph of any show and realize that as long as they do it a bare minimum of competently if boringly, and don't absolutely butcher it like Dexter or Game of Thrones, people will rate it very highly.
That's the case with shows; I'm not sure with movies.
Annual reminder that this watch order makes for a satisfying symmetrical narrative, of the rebellion story followed by a set of origin stories which show not just how it all came to be, but how close they came to losing it all before it even started.
Star Wars
The Empire Strikes Back
Return of the Jedi
The Phantom Menace
Solo
Rogue One
And yes I'm aware that TPM and Solo aren't great movies. The purpose of the watch order is not to be an overall wonderful cinematic experience, but one that tells all of the story that's necessary and worth keeping, without being depressing, nauseating, or ridiculous.
this opinion is almost as terrible as one that includes the sequel trilogy or excludes return of the jedi
>And yes I'm aware that TPM and Solo aren't great movies.
And Rogue One is?
>one that tells all of the story that's necessary and worth keeping
But TPM and Solo aren't necessary at all. Neither is Rogue One.
Lots of filler compared to the other two
In a word - Ewoks
Some couldnt get into the Jabba part
A lot got mad at the ewoks
Ewok section goes on for too long and doesn't really add anything; It just meanders while the plot is at a standstill.
The confrontation between Luke, Vader and the Emperor in particular suffers from this since its a lot of back and forth with very little said - I imagine this is why it constantly switches to the stupid Ewok battle like anyone gives a shit
It has some great peaks - Vader mask reveal is kino, Jabbas palace and Luke losing it are all great; Its just not as tight as 4 or 5.
Its probably my favorite SW, but at the same time its also the worst in the OT, ya feel me?
It's a bad movie
Even if you like the Ewoks, it's just too much of the film spent on no real plot development. Felt like three episodes of Stargate instead of one film.
>it's just too much of the film spent on no real plot development.
Put your phone down, kiddo, the entire film is plot development.
My phone was attached to the wall at my parent's house when I saw it.
I'm surprised people levy these kind of complaints at Jedi when Empire is even more guilty of it - the stretch of Han and Leia evading the Empire consumes a huge portion of the movie and largely does nothing to forward the plot, and until they get to cloud city all it really does is intereupt the more interesting Luke and Yoda plot.
The Han and Leia "romance" is also substantially worse than Anakin and Padme but that's a different issue
>The Han and Leia "romance" is also substantially worse than Anakin and Padme
lol
lmao
shut the frick up
>first movie
>Han and Leia just bicker with one another
>second movie
>Han and Leia still just bicker with one another
>but then they kiss despite no romantic implications, just bickering
>now they're in love to the point of being fine with public displays of affection
it's shit compared to the Anakin/Padme romance which nurtured from their platonic relationship in TPM
i acknowledge however that harrison ford is just bad in general whenever he's opposite female costars
movie
>>Han and Leia just bicker with one another
Maybe you should watch the movie with your brain turned on and eyes opened, zoomie. You don't see nuance, and you don't understand real human emotions. You need them saying O, I SO LOVE YOU, I WISH I COULD WISH AWAY MY FEELINGS, O I AM SO IN LOVE, YOU ARE TEARING ME APART, YOU ARE TORMENTING ME! Which explains why you love the putrid dogshit that is Anakin/Padme.
>>it's shit compared to the Anakin/Padme romance
Holy moron. Anakin/Padme romance is the single most cringeworthy and unrealistic romance ever portrayed in cinema.
>Maybe you should watch the movie with your brain turned on and eyes opened, zoomie.
take your own advice. that scene in your pic isn't Han being interested in Leia, it's him fricking around with Luke, you idiot.
lol, moron
you are unironically autistic
you are incapable of picking up on human intentions and emotions
consider suicide
lmao
Han only says that after he pointedly notices Luke getting defensive after Han talks shit about Leia. he puts on a shit eating grin after Luke nervously tries to shoot Han down in regards to her.
why are you trying to pretend you don't know all this
>a shit eating grin
lol
lmao
You have already confirmed your autism to everyone in this thread. How long are you gonna embarrass yourself? End it NOW.
oh okay I get it you realized you had no idea what you were talking about and now you're going to try and claim you were trolling this whole time. you get 'em, champ.
See:
You think that was "shit eating grin." You are a clinical autist and a moronic zoomer. Which is why you enjoy this putrid garbage. You should end your life.
you think that's the shot i was referring to?. have you even seen these movies?
some deep fricking irony here the way you toss the word autism around while not being able to pick up what was going on in that scene.
The Virgin Awakens
high grade autism
You are a virgin incel with actual, clinically diagnosable autism. Try talking to girls more before critiquing movie romances.
>The Han and Leia "romance" is also substantially worse than Anakin and Padme but that's a different issue
lol, lmao even
Because outside of the kino throne room part, most of the movie is not that good. No matter how hard contrarians try to pretend ewoks are actually kino or something, it still makes for a pretty shit movie to watch Harrison Ford & hairy midgets making fools of themselves while we see just how hilariously incompetent and harmless stormtroopers are.
the plot is really lame and doesn't make sense and the overall vibe is too goofy. the only scene that really has any weight to it is the stuff with luke and the emperor. everything else is like a loony toons cartoon. the whole thing kind of feels phoned in, like nobody really wanted to be there anymore.
It's just shit.
imagine thinking RotJ is shit
I always liked the opening on Jabba's floating barge thingy. Ewoks are meh, second death star is meh. Throne room is kino.
Because of a popular sci-fi magazine that told its readers how to be cool, basically. Then drones got Internet and pretended to agree because they think that they'll be seen as weak or gay if they admit to liking it simply because it has rebel teddy bears in it.
Do you also think the prequels were all loved until RLM poisoned everyone's mind?
>Do you also think the prequels were all loved until RLM poisoned everyone's mind?
TPM was and still is loved. AoTC, not as much, but did extremely well, but RoTS was a letdown for me and many at the time, yet it's grown on me.
tl;dr TPM is my fav prequel
>avid cut
Huh? I remember the SP episode, but not that. Also their opinion means nothing to me.
>TPM was and still is loved
Blatant historical revisionism. You're a liar and more than likely you weren't born yet when it came out. Now frick off, before you post something even more moronic.
>Blatant historical revisionism. You're a liar
lol what? I was there in Seattle camped out with thousands of people. And I saw the film at least 20 times in different theaters. It destroyed everything in its wake. You're the liar here, kid.
Now leave.
>a lot of people saw it and hated it, that means that people loved it
Frick off zoomer LARPer
No U frick off, kiddo. It was a smash hit. Yes, some hated Jar Jar and still do, good for you.
>smash hit
>a lot of people watched it and hated it, therefore people loved it
Frick off zoomer LARPer
Oh no the zoomy is stuck, someone hit him.
Not my fault you keep using the same moron logic.
>a lot of people watched it
>they hated it
>but a lot of people watched it, therefore people loved it
Frick off zoomer LARPer
>some hated Jar Jar
>some
The key to baiting is making it at least sightly believable.
Don't listen to them, they are trying to fit in. Everyone lost their minds in the theater when Maul hit the second blade.
>Everyone lost their minds in the theater when Maul hit the second blade.
And the part where the choreography was the highest, you know the part. The music drove it home.
'ppreciate the backup, mang.
>I saw the film at least 20 times
Why?
Because I liked it a lot. Is this tough to fathom? The music in some of the best theaters helped a bunch.
20 times is unironically too much unless it happens over a 20 span
*20 year span
>Is this tough to fathom?
No, but it's impossible to condone.
>but it's impossible to condone.
It kept me off the streets?
>the whole Jabba stuff is just the movie coming up with a clumsy and overcomplicated way to resolve ESB's ending
>Han Solo, instead of dying like the script originally said, was kept alive solely to sell toys
>Endor can be summarized by pic related which just feels moronic when Luke is fighting Vader and confronting Palpatine at the same time
The stuff with Palpatine and Vader and Luke is great though.
The whole toys and Han dying thing is routinely brought up but Han's death would just be sad for Leia losing the man she loves, not a happy ending.
Harrison Ford wasn't aware of Leia being Luke's sister until the last few days of shooting, the reason he wanted to die was because he thought that Han was the third wheel and the real romance was supposed to be Luke and Leia and it was Han's style not to get in the way of that, and to go out with glory, but he agreed to let Han live once George revealed that Leia's true love was Han and that Luke was her brother, mirroring the plot of the movie exactly
in other words, kino
>Luke and Leia are siblings
>Luke and Leia are in love
Why not do both? Sure recipe for kino.
It's not a French kino, anon.
Tell me more about some of these French Kinos.
can be summarized by pic related which just feels moronic when Luke is fighting Vader and confronting Palpatine at the same time
Felt like the two simultaneous plots in LOTR books, enjoyed it.
It's a movie bookended by two amazing setpieces, rescuing Han and the throne room scene. The rest of the movie is completely forgettable.
Because it's not as good.
the empire seemed really threatening and scary in episode V. In Episode VI you kind of feel like they aren't as ruthless anymore. They should have replaced Ewoks with wookies. The battle could have been more vicious and it would have felt less like a kids movie.
The space battle and the throne room battle are kino though. And the Jaba escape is solid also. If only the Ewok battle were a little less cringey
>In Episode VI you kind of feel like they aren't as ruthless anymore.
To be fair they did cut scenes out that never made it into the final film where the Emperor orders the moon of Endor destroyed and he doesn't care that there's still lots of Imperials there. So the darkness resides mostly with Palpatine, canonically anyway. And to hell with Disney de-canonizing the EU because I just re-canonized it.
I have seen those deleted scenes. I think making the empire lackeys just regular guys following the orders of EVIL palpatine is kind of shit tho. I like how in Episode IV Tarkin looks like he really does want to control the galaxy and is a ruthless pragmatist. The empire should be scary, and we shouldn't feel bad for them or sympathize with them at all really
>I think making the empire lackeys just regular guys following the orders of EVIL palpatine is kind of shit tho. I like how in Episode IV Tarkin looks like he really does want to control the galaxy and is a ruthless pragmatist. The empire should be scary, and we shouldn't feel bad for them or sympathize with them at all really
I see your point, but it's not like the scene made it into the finished film.
>shit tatooine filler
>everything endor and ewoks
>death star returned
>Luke has no real reason to fall to the dark side, because he had already rejected Vader in ESB
>le one bad decision = forever evil
>emperor is just a cackling cartoon villain who is so evil muahahahahha
>Vader redeemed and goes to space heaven despite everything he had done, and gets to stand next to Yoda and obi-wan
>Leia is Luke's sister
>somehow I always knew
>bad acting
The movie is just shit all around. Not as bad as AOTC, but second worst of the OG 6 films.
>>Leia is Luke's sister
I always knew
And Vader never noticed it when she was captured. It was a moronic idea.
redeemed and goes to space heaven despite everything he had done, and gets to stand next to Yoda and obi-wan
agreed.
>genocide planets
>before death ask forgiveness
>????
>profit
He did not even ask for forgiveness, he just killed his boss cause he was frying his son, and he is le good now, I guess.
Vader's redemption always felt half passed and unearned. He was a completely different character in ROTJ compared to the previous two films. The prequels only made it worse with him killing a class of pre-school children with his lightsaber, all because he had a bad dream.
>He did not even ask for forgiveness, he just killed his boss cause he was frying his son, and he is le good now, I guess.
Not that anon, but when Vader admitted to Luke that he was right, he was saying he was sorry.
captcha G0YD4
hmmm
>you were right Luke, I was le good this whole time, when I tortured your sister in the first movie, when I killed your squadron, when I killed Ben, when I almost killed you, when I tortured Han, when I sold him to Boba Fett, when I cut off your hand, when I threatened to turn Leia
>you were right about me...
>I am a good boy...
>ACK...
haha yeah Darth Catholic. Not bashing Jesus like some of you phags, though.
If Goering killed Hitler in real life he would've been let go, Vader killing Palpatine is the same.
it's important to not let one's political leanings warp their view of reality like this
Goering would have been executed
>If Goering killed Hitler in real life he would've been let go
I'm not sure unless it was on film.
>Vader killing Palpatine is the same.
There's no way, even the old EU agrees with me. He had to die, otherwise it would have been Dagobah style hiding out for the remainder of his final days for him.
Thematically the one thing that made sense for Vader was to give up his own life. Paying the ultimate price is the one thing that could redeem him to the audience without feeling phony, with all the evil Vader had done, especially after the prequels. In the books, Leia had a hard time forgiving Anakin even when he appeared to her as a spirit to beg her for forgiveness, and she rejected him. Eventually she did forgive him though, and named her second son after him.
Agreed fully.
>In the books, Leia had a hard time forgiving Anakin even when he appeared to her as a spirit to beg her for forgiveness, and she rejected him. Eventually she did forgive him though, and named her second son after him.
I can't believe how effective those books were in dealing with that. Truce at Bakura had some of it I think.
George always hugely undervalued the EU people
Hilariously yidsney did the same thing but worse, getting rid of them all and trashing their flawed yet carefully constructed universe that filled in all of George's plot holes
We'll always have the old EU, anon, Disney can't tell us to like anything.
I want the Jaina series they cancelled, damnit
they built her really well despite making Jacen turn after building her up for so long to be the one who would turn
>what a twist
That's why aside from some action figures and games, I've given up on anything in the Disney era. Maybe if that rumor turns out to be true and Disney is looking for someone to sell Star Wars to I'll be able to find some new optimism, but I think Disney is too dumb for that. They have sunk cost fallacy, even if they'd make more money back by just selling it, they don't want to accept that they mangled their investment and they think if they just hold onto it they'll make their money back someday. Then again, the same thing happened with Power Rangers. They paid Hiam Saban billions for it and sold it back to him for only $60 million. He out-jewed Disney so good I can't help but admire him for it.
I'm not sure if I buy the idea that Lucas and/or his estate are interested in buying back Star Wars even if it was an option. It is possible that his bill of sale included right of first refusal if Disney ever did decide they need to offload it, but if Disney were to try and sell Star Wars, and Lucas wasn't buying, it would be very interesting to see who's bidding on it. The company is not worth more than $1 billion right now though, even with all the toy licenses.
>aside from some action figures and games
I know we're in a Star Wars thread, but are you 8 years old?
Everyone needs hobbies.
>Maybe if that rumor turns out to be true and Disney is looking for someone to sell Star Wars to
100% not true, not happening, no weight to this rumor at all. You have a complete misunderstanding of all this if you think it's more valuable sold than in Disney's hands. Stop entertaining this thought in your head. Disney is NOT SELLING STAR WARS. They own it, let it go.
The fact that rumour has people genuinely entertaining it proves to me that at least 50% of star wars fans are actual morons.
It's like bigfoot, there's no proof it's real, people just want it.
even if someone else buys it, we'll never get an OT sequel
they wasted the only opportunity to do it with the original cast
whoever else could likely get Hamill and redeem Luke, but that's it
Hitler wasn't viewed as the ultimate evil then that he is now
>Hitler wasn't viewed as the ultimate evil
He was, just not for every reason we have presented to us now.
>for every reason we have presented to us
carefully worded/10
Yeah Hitler was a pretty nice guy in the 80's. I met him once at the opening of a new sporting goods store. Very friendly.
Vader finally spend some time with Luke and realized, he was in the wrong. How the frick is that not obvious. Him seeing his son almost die flicked the switch.
Vader is already somber when he escorts Luke to the shuttle.
The scene where Vader speaks to Luke at the shuttle dock is actually more significant than a lot of people realize. It's the first time Vader has had a conversation with his son and they're not fighting.
>mad that vader is forgiven of his sins
cope harder. that's how anyone gets to heaven. Jesus is the only way.
That's what subhuman Black folk say who want to justify their subhuman Black personness. Christcucks are fricking obnoxious hypocritical Black person homosexuals.
>ugh, I molested those kids...
>but I am so wicked....
>we are all sinners...
>Oh Jesus forgive me my sins I repent!!!
Fundies will never learn and you are so right.
that will be an eternity in hell + tip (fedora)
>"Empire Strikes Back!"
>the next movie: Empire is a full of jobber morons who get rekt by space koalas, Vader gets shoved down stairs repeatedly, the Emperor just gets picked up and shoved into a bottomless pit
i dunno chief
>Vader gets shoved down stairs repeatedly
Oh frick off. Did you whine when Luke kicked Vader off the platform in ESB?
The start and finish are good, but Endor is meh. Everything with the Emperor, Luke and Vader is kino, however.
ewoks
>DADDY WASN'T THERE
>TO TAKE ME TO THE FAIR
>entire beginning is totally unrelated to the plot and exists because lucas refused to kill off han
>(han also after getting saved becomes an irrelevant character)
>we get to the main plot and it itself is just bad, literally we have to blow up the death star… again
>the other half is carebears on endor and fluctuates between boring to outright stupid. lucas thinks he’s an actual fricking genius comparing the actual struggle of the viet cong to ooga booga teddy bears with rocks and spears. these things are the precursor to shit like jar jar in the prequels
>the only good sequence (throne room) is also a slight departure from what had been established in ESB
>leia is also lukes sister now
honestly I think the real reason was just star wars lost its novelty to audiences in the six years between the first and third films.
all the nitpicks about the story and the ewoks and stuff seem like retroactive complaints by a minority of nerds, if you look at other really popular films from the same year they had a lot of similar issues
Star Wars was meant to be a single stand alone film. It was pure escapist fantasy. The sequels were money making cash cows, with Empire Strikes Back being good but nothing compared to the original. Alec Guinness was right in his assessment, they're childish banalities that resulted from what was originally a film for the family.
Alec Guiness played pretend for a living
What's your point? He was a stage performer whose job is to entertain. 99% of people would take that job over a standard 9-5 office drone position. They have existed since the dawn of agriculture, maybe even before then. The sequels, much like the capeshit industry today, has a target audience of perpetually adolescent basedboys that reflects much of what's wrong with the West today.
my point is that an anecdote of Alec Guiness telling a literal child he shouldnt like star wars isnt him being based, its him being a cranky old man with a very inflated sense of self-importance.
no one has ever looked back at shit like star wars and said “THIS! this is why my life is shit”… well accept for maybe jake lloyd
plus he was in countless banal movies throughout his career so look who's talking
Gen-X doesn’t like Ewoks
I was discussing this once with a friend and he hated the Ewoks because they were too kiddy.
"But they do adult things with them? Weren't you moved by that scene where the two Ewoks are blasted, one gets up and motions his friend only to realize that he's lying dead?", I asked him.
His reply was "The true tragedy was that the other survived."
>they do adult things with them
see:
i wanna do adult things with ewoks too
>tfw you sliced a bunch of children to pieces and kept an evil tyrant in charge of the galaxy for years but you felt bad about it before dying so now you go to force heaven
That's what believing in Jesus is like
>That's what believing in Jesus is like
Anakin believes in Pope Francis's doctrine that you can do anything and still go to heaven.
That's how Christianity heaven works
Things I don't like:
>too much filler
>Ewoks are lame, should've been Wookies
>the Empire are not longer competent villains
>Vader reading Luke's mind and Luke suddenly going berserk on him feel forced
Things I'm fine with:
>Jabba's palace
>reusing the Death Star
>Leia is Luke's sister (foreshadowed in ESB)
Outside of the scenes with Luke, Vader and The Emperor, its boring as hell. Han has nothing interesting to do, Leia has nothing interesting to do, Lando has nothing interesting to do. Also dumb shit like Boba Fett's lackluster death and the twist of Luke and Leia being siblings. We got slave Leia which I guess the only other plus.
ewoks are stupid
rehashed family member plot twist
rehashed death star
rushed han solo rescue
rushed yoda death
no other jedi who was the "another" yoda said, it was just leia
han acts like a moron the whole movie
fischer acting is laughable due to cocaine
throne room scenes were kino tho
>ewoks are stupid
You're being racist because they were stand-ins for the Viet-Cong. According to liberal rules you must not love the film even if you don't or else you will be cancelled.
*now love
Believe it or not, other people are different than you.
>I loved it when I watched as a 4-year old in 2008, therefore everyone must have loved in 1999
TPM didn't come out in 2008, you literal child.
Now leave.
lmao, you're fricking illiterate
>dur I was pretending to be moronic
Anon, you're not fooling anyone. Don't reply to me anymore, you're incapable of any reading comprehension and you fully are on EBT.
>therefore everyone must have loved in 1999
Loved in what, you illiterate baboon?
I do actually love the movie, but it's flawed and the worst of the 3
commies get the rope, kys
>
You're being racist because they were stand-ins for the Viet-Cong. According to liberal rules you must not love the film even if you don't or else you will be cancelled. (You)
>I do actually love the movie
>but it's flawed and the worst of the 3
>commies get the rope, kys
I agree, so follow your advice.
Wookies
Funny Return of the Jedi was always my favorite original trilogy SW movie.
general audiences are surface level only and thus get filtered by ewoks. they dont understand the true greatness of the drama on the death star
Ewoks were too silly. Everything else is about equal to Empire.
>The Ewoks were, in fact, proving difficult. “The first thing George said was, ‘They’re little furry guys, they carry spears, and they run through the woods,’ ” says Johnston. “We did 300 drawings of little furry guys running through the woods; a lot of them were troll-like or gnomes and all kinds of little things. But George came in and said, ‘Okay, guys. This isn’t working. Let’s make them cuter.’ So we did another hundred [sic] sketches. We found that if we added ears to them, they became much more expressive. Maybe some of them had cute little faces, puppy-dog faces. He picked the puppy dog one and said, ‘That’s looking pretty good. Do some more like this.’ I kind of picked up the direction he was heading and I did one so cute, it looked like the teddy bear’s picnic. It had little ears and was wearing a little bonnet. George came in the next day and said, ‘That’s it! We’ll kill ’em with cuteness! Try them all cute.’"
>“Ralph [McQuarrie] was very opinionated, because he’s a fantastic storyteller, and so if he didn’t always agree with George, I think sometimes he would lose interest in something,” Craig Barron would say. “I remember specifically when the Ewoks started to become very much like teddy bears that there was a feeling that it was maybe too obvious a marketing idea. I think Ralph didn’t like that too much. But it was George’s movie and he was there to help the director tell his story.”
>“I kept pitching the same idea to George over and over, and George would say, ‘Where are you going with this?’ ” Rodis-Jamero adds. “I said, ‘What if the Ewoks were just up in the branches of trees while the war between the rebels and the Empire was played out below them.’ So my Ewoks would never partake in the war. I just didn’t think that they belonged in this story. I thought it would be more layered if they were not involved, but I was completely wrong.”
Over the last 25 years these are the two reasons that people most frequently cite:
Ewoks
Second death star
I posit that if they had used Wookiees, and the final battle had been against the Executor and the imperial fleet rather than a second death star, people would have had a lot less to complain about. Of course, the final sequences of the Death Star interior are incredible and I don't think you could replace them easily. One option I have considered is that the final battle could have been an assault on Couriscant, although I'm not sure if they had the technology to have a battle scene that big even though it was around the same time as Bladerunner.
I just accept the movie as it is. It may not have been perfect but it's still one of my favorite movies of all time, and I don't need to change it.
>the final battle had been against the Executor and the imperial fleet rather than a second death star
final battle should be on coruscant like lucas originally planned
but it's incidental to the actual story and therefore pretty much irrelevant
>final battle should be on coruscant like lucas originally planned
Nothing is stopping you from making Return of the Jedi Part 2, anon. Hamill asked for it back in '82.
>Hamill asked for it back in '82.
he did?
Yep. He concurred with Lawrence Kasdan and imagined Luke to then take Vader's helmet (not the mask) and wear it then declaring himself Emperor after he personally kills Palpatine.
Many years ago there was a dude on a local BBS who posted something like this that he called "that's no space station, that's a moon" where instead of Endor being the moon it was the wookie planet and instead of a second death star, it was the main imperial base built on a moon. The moon was tapped so there was a path all the way into the core where it got its energy from. And the rebel plan and imperial trap was a double-trap: the base was usually guarded by a massive fleet and so unassailable. But the rebels gambled that if they launched most of their stuff against another, critical target the empire would take the bait and deploy to defend it against the main rebel attack. Then a small rebel fleet could strike the now barely-defended moon base. But the Emperor figured it out and drew them in, then the fleet showed up and it was like "oh shit". This would basically preserve the battle, including the ride into the core to destroy the reactor.
the problem with wookiees is that they're already established as technological creatures within the films and the EU prior to ROTJ
Chewie knows how to operate and repair starships, and he comes from a race of people that builds starships and participates in galactic politics and was enslaved to do work on the death star
that clashes with the fundamental "nature vs technology/primitive vs advanced" theme of ROTJ which requires what amounts to red indians cobbling together wood and hide and rock and hemp weapons in order to help defeat the bad guys
also the idea that it was ever supposed to be wookiees in the final battle is a complete myth, that had been dropped as a concept by 1975, having existed previously only within the very early drafts for Star Wars back when Han Solo was a green alien and Luke Skywalker was a girl
>the fundamental "nature vs technology/primitive vs advanced" theme of ROTJ
lol that's only the theme on Endor and only to make the Ewoks cuter
Nice try though
George Lucas literally said so, it's a theme that runs through the entire series, the Force is one with nature, the Dark Side is all about raping nature and bending it to your will, Star Wars is very luddite and anti-industrial in attitudes when you consider the primary objects of villainy: Star Destroyers, droids, clones, the Death Star
>George Lucas literally said so
the question with George is always when did he say a thing
because he is notorious for aggrandizing himself more and more the more he talks about it all
>because he is notorious for aggrandizing himself more and more the more he talks about it all
isn't it curious how the idea that Lucas is a liar who makes shit up every time he opens his mouth comes from all the parasites riding on his success trying to aggrandize themselves as "the real brains behind star wars' success"?
I like and respect Lucas even if I dislike a lot of his work, but the man is a notorious bullshit artist that changes his mind with every plate of food court noodles.
>parasites riding on his success
lol, he contradicts himself in his own interviews over the years
no I'm not going to even bother sourcing, this argument doesn't mean shit to me, it's well known
read/watch his interviews over the years and you'll see it for yourself
>it is known
the man is a notorious egomaniac
I bought the VHS copies of the OT when he did the special edition
this motherfricker paid Leonard Maltin to do the mother of all butthole sucking interviews and this man split it into 3 parts and stuck one BEFORE each movie, so you had to fast forward through it every time
if you ever want to see him at his most head up his own ass, these were made right when he was preproducing the PT, after getting his ego's wiener sucked on a daily by LF kids working for him for almost 20 solid years
For the record I love George and what he made but holy frick does he have some huge flaws
>wearing that turtleneck with the neck high enough to cover the goiter
he was based and you're seething
jelly rlmkid
jesus, take the (You) if you're going to beg me for it like that
>Given his chance, Ford returned to his mantra, with an eagerness for the film perhaps lesser than Hamill’s. “I desperately wanted to die,” Ford says. “I thought it would give the myth some body, and that Han Solo, in fact, really had no place to go. He would have best served the situation by giving it the weight of sacrifice, but that was the one thing I was unable to convince George of. George has a predisposition to happy endings. There’s no less enthusiasm on my part because my idea didn’t pan out. I just say that to illustrate the fact that I feel I am finished with the story.”
>“He said, ‘I want to die,’ ” Marquand confirms. “And he sort of persuaded me that there was a lot in what he was saying. If he could have some super heroic death, he would be out of the way so that Mark and Carrie can work out whatever it is they are going to do. Well, you see, Harrison didn’t know the truth of the story. He didn’t know and I couldn’t tell him [that Leia is Luke’s sister], because I was not allowed. Looking at it from Harrison’s point of view, yeah, that would be great: He goes back into the bunker, blows the whole thing up; he’s trapped, but everybody’s saved and they have this big party and say, ‘Hey, wasn’t Han Solo great!’ ”
>“There was no future in dead-Han toys,” Ford would later say.
There was a test screening of Jedi where Lando died, but that was as dark as George was willing to get concerning the good guys.
Harrison Ford has made so much money off of his likeness being used, I can't help but imagine he's glad that Lucas didn't kill Han off.
Why would Han dying as a hero decrease merch sales?
idk but it would be a moronic decision and it shows that ford never understood the material. the OT is about the new generation fixing a broken world inherited by the old guard. therefore, it needs a happy ending for the new guard. it's not a trilogy for kids but for adolescence, teaching them the right way to find your place in the world and be happy
and all that rests on rotj's shoulders
lol, dumbass
you can't just "fix" a totalitarian genocidal regime and get away with it, it's not a game
people who try that get imprisoned, tortured, and eventually killed, senselessly and for nothing
you don't even get a heroic sacrifice, you die of torture in prison or killed at the protests
but the message that Star Wars gives is that it's just a game and you're all gonna be fine - there is no grit, edge and sacrifice
homosexuals toppled a tyrannical government, and the worst thing that happened to them is Luke losing a hand, and even then, he got a new one in the next scene
your interpretatiin is surface level. the ot isn't at its core about a dictatorship, it's more timeless than that.
the world is a mess. the old guard has fricked up. now a new generation enters the scene and has to clean up the mess behind. the particulars of the mess are SECONDARY.
how do you deal with that as a young person? lucas has a wonderfully nuanced message in rotj. he says: these are the old people you can trust. these are the old people you can save. and these are the old people beyond salvage. but even with the old people you can trust, you cant do that blindly, you need to know better than them.
it's a fricking brilliant trilogy, thanks to this movie.
I see what you mean but I could’ve fit Han’s character I think
if han dies, the ot would send the message that loving scoundrels have not much of a future, only goody two-shoes. that would have lessened the message of the ot substantially because it's not plausible. as it is, it says that the future has room for good people of different stripes.
han must live
hate boner for lucas
they think he wasn't as involved in empire even though he was still very much involved
if you read about the making of of rotj, he was the one behind the death star plotline, he made all the right calls here
He basically ghost-directed Jedi, even fully directing several scenes.
The popular revisionist history that was going around during the heyday of the RLM reviews, before Disney bought Star Wars, was that George Lucas was basically off running a toy company while Irvin Kirshner and Lawrence Kasdan made Empire Strikes Back. The fact of the matter is that Lucas was on the set for Empire Strikes Back every day. It was his baby, and the project was too big for him to work as director when there were so many other components of the production that he had to oversee.
I think where Lucas did make a mistake was that he gave into his vanity with the prequels and wanted that director's credit. I think if everything had been the same, even the screenplays, and he had Kenneth Branagh directing the actors, he would have gotten that Shakespearian high-language that he wanted, and the audience would have bought it. I actually like the prequels and I accept them as-is, but I do think that Lucas would have been better off if he'd filled the same role he did with Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi, as the master storyteller and overseer while someone else handled the actors. He always did say that directing actors on a set was his least favorite part of filmmaking.
As for Kingom of the Crystal Skull, I have a take that most people don't really consider with it. People always talk about the lack of accountability that Lucas had while making the prequels. Well, take that and multiply it by two, because now you had two of the biggest men in Hollywood making a personal project with unchecked egos and nobody who could tell them "maybe this is a little too much." Temple of Doom is what they had always wanted the Indiana Jones "spinoff films" to be, and they were kind of ego-checked into making "Raiders of the Lost Ark 3" (Last Crusade). Crystal Skull is everything that was wrong with Temple of Doom and more, because once again, there was no ego checking.
>I think where Lucas did make a mistake was that he gave into his vanity with the prequels and wanted that director's credit
Not true, he had asked multiple directors to work on Episode 1. Ron Howard could have done the whole trilogy after he did Apollo 13 and told George no. No official offer, but Howard just instinctively told Lucas to do it himself, it's his thing more than anyone's.
Since George was directing and overseeing new technology, it took him longer to get started on episode 1. He did the special editions first to buy himself time really.
Well that cuts down the anti-Lucas theories even more in that case, and it shows how far spread the RLM-era revisionist history has gone. If you ask a Lucas-hater what Star Wars is, they'll tell you "Empire Strikes Back is an excellent movie directed by Irvin Kirshner and written by Lawrence Kasdan. George Lucas is a massive-ego hack who made 5 bad movies and wants to take credit for the one good one." There are people who won't even acknowledge the original film's greatness despite being a global phenomena when it released, and when pressed on it they'll say "well, it was a going to be a mediocre sci-fi film that was saved in post when Lucas's wife locked him out of the editing room." I just feel like, do these people even watch the movies, or do they just b***h about them on the internet and pray to a shrine with the Empire Strikes Back VHS in the center?
The Disney movies are all bad though. I am not even gonna suck up to Rogue One because the Darth Vader scene that everyone loved so much is one of the worst parts of the movie. It was completely out of character for Vader to do wetwork like that when he's got armies to do it for him. It was basically just a bad fan-film re-imagining of the opening scene from A New Hope where it's more like a video game cutscene.
>It was completely out of character for Vader to do wetwork like that when he's got armies to do it for him.
I disagree with that one, letting off steam like that while going to get the plans back personally is totally in character, if you're counting the PT's characterization
>I disagree with that one, letting off steam like that while going to get the plans back personally is totally in character
*cringe*
>selectively greentexting almost the entire post while leaving out the qualifying bit
yikes and oof and touch grass while having sex chudcel
I don't pay attention to RLM and sometimes in these topics I get told I'm parroting them, but honestly I think it's parallel thinking. Really, I think Lucas loved other parts of film making more. Writing and directing is laborious and he did it despite himself. He hired Leigh Brackett to write ESB so he wouldn't have to. When she died he had to hire someone else and do even more work to move forward. The real issue with Lucas was he didn't trust people. He was anti-hollywood and wanted to make these big budget independent films. That's why he ever offered ROTJ to Lynch. Because of Eraserhead basically. Richard Donnor would have been a great director for Star Wars, but Lucas didn't know him, so that never happened. Lucas deserves credit and criticism.
Because the Ewoks look stupid.
I like the original Star Wars the least of the 3. It’s a great movie and I certainly don’t dislike it but it’s it doesn’t have the momentum of the other 2.
To be fair Lucas has put out as many as six versions of ANH with varying scenes and runtimes.
Every time he touches ANH it gets worse.
he should have edited only the most controversial part of the OT, the ewoks. i feel if you edit out some of the more buffoonish moments and add some grit, like some blood on the dead ewok, it could work really wel
>Every time he touches ANH it gets worse.
Fully agree. I prefer the first real cut after the first assembly cut that is known as "the lost cut", even that that wasn't a cut, so the one after that is my preferred version, but you have to make your own.
Because it was poorly written, acted, and directed. And for no good reason. There was no time limit with that production.
Haven't watched it since i was a kid, but I remember it being my favorite. The reconciliation between Anakin and Luke was moving to me as a boy. Made me have hope me and my pops could reconcile too and gain respect for each other and we did.
Ewoks were created to appeal to girls.
>Not every product was a success, however. “George was determined that there was going to be an Ewok [soft toy],” Roffman (who would become Lucas Licensing president in 1986) would say. “George had a baby girl and he wanted something that Amanda could play with from Star Wars. But it was a thankless task trying to convince licensees that Star Wars shouldn’t be just for boys. For Kenner, it was a complete anathema, because, being in the toy business, they understood gender differentiation very well. They were afraid that it would turn off the boys and that it really wouldn’t appeal to girls.”
>“Merchandisers were very reluctant to go along with it,” Lucas says. “I want my daughter to have one. That’s what I care about. Nobody else wants one, that’s fine with me. A lot of people are going to be offended by Ewoks. A lot of people say the films are just an excuse for merchandising: ‘Lucas decided to cash in on the teddy bear.’ Well, it’s not a great thing to cash in on, because there are lots of teddy bears marketed, so you don’t have anything that’s unique. If I were designing something original as a market item, I could do a lot better. Again, people tend to look at merchandising as an evil thing. But ultimately, a lot of fun things come out of it, and at the same time, it pays for the overhead of the company and everybody’s salary.”
>Ultimately Kenner agreed to do Ewok plush. “But their heart was never really in it and the product wasn’t very good,” Roffman adds.
>“I’ll tell you what was totally successful about marketing the Ewoks: Letting our audience know that something special was coming and not revealing what,” Ganis would say. “Not revealing what that something special was until the appointed moment—and then bringing it on the scene. We successfully built the Ewoks into something that was going to be important to the saga and then we sprung it.”
I don't think killing Han was a good idea. You know what character should've died as a hero in the climax? Wedge Antilles.
Because it was rushed, crams everything from the ST that George planned at the time to deal with Vader and the Emperor into one film, compressing Vader's slow rehumanizing arc into him transforming suddenly into a whiny, depressed b***h after being a badass in ESB (thus creating the whiny flip floppy spoiled Anakin in the PT); George had already lost his touch from his divorce and used Marqard as a puppet, interfering too much
George was tired and gave up on it and just wanted it over with when he should have then just let other people take the drivers' seat
Wish Lynch directed it. Stupid frick would have had all the freedom he wanted instead of getting fricked over on Dune.
>Stupid frick would have had all the freedom he wanted
The way George used who he got for it, I don't think so
George would have been interfering, and Lynch's personality, he likely would have started fricking with George constantly, making decisions with it just to irritate or confuse George
Think Lynch saw it just from meeting him
I do love that story Lynch tells about meeting Lucas, but I think Lucas loved and respected Lynch enough to let him go wild. Why else would he have asked Lynch, who at that time was still pretty obscure and wierd? I just always find it so funny he took on Dune a few years later anyways.
I'm sure David Lynch wishes he'd said yes to Lucas and no to Dune.
The acting is worse, the writing is often perfunctory and feels like it's just buying time, and it's a much more flat looking production. The prequels are the best thing to ever happen to ROTJ's reputation.
I like ROTJ a lot despite all its faults, but it's undoubtedly a lesser movie. I recognize that I like it because I like Star Wars, and ROTJ is classic Star Wars even if it's shoddy.
The biggest difference RotJ has from ANH and ESB is that Gary Kurtz wasn't the producer. He's gone here.
but again who cares. star wars and esb are devoid of meaning without rotj
best space battle in series
SW vidya was the best part of the franchise.
George and Marcia divorced on june 1983, one month after RotJ premiered. Look at the date.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.upi.com/amp/Archives/1983/06/15/Star-Wars-producer-getting-divorced/5263424497600/
She was nice enough to continue editing the film during their divorce. If she were French, maybe the movie wouldn't exist at all.
In other words, anyone who says that divorce had something to do with RotJ's quality is wrong. RotJ was finished when Marcia made the decision.
>the conditions leading to a divorce doesn't start years prior
fools
you don't get divorced cause it's going great
the divorce itself is usually the best part of a divorce, an end to the hell that necessitated the divorce
it absolutely colored ROTJ
>it absolutely colored ROTJ
Not them, but I have my doubts. It seems he channeled all that dark energy into The Temple of Doom, according to his own words, he said he was in a "bad mood" during the making of that one. Regardless, ToD is either the best or the second best one, can't decide.
>It seems he channeled all that dark energy into The Temple of Doom
and he tortures robots in ROTJ for some reason
and, again, he gave up on all of his existing plans for a sequel trilogy to deal with Vader and the Emperor and rushed through finishing it in one film instead, a film he wasn't originally planning on being the last movie
he had no actual intentions of making the PT at that time, what George says about what he planned when has changed constantly over the years
the marriage falling apart made him give up on SW at the time
I means they did just literally blow up a second Death Star
It’s hard to retread the same ground you did before and make it come off as intenresting it makes it come off as you ran out of ideas (which Lucas pretty well had by episode 6)
Leila being Luke’s sister also weirded people out a bit and the Ewoks seemed to lower the stakes (tho I liked them personally)
i skip all scenes with ewoks. whoever put them into the film was braindead
i love rotj to death but even i consider this understandable. they're fine the first or second time you watch the movie but after that a waste of time. they have little to no personality
I personally liked it more than ANH, jabba's palace was great, despite Endors flaws I did like the speederbike battle, and the Vader stuff was great.
Rebuilding the death star was kind of meh, but eh.
It was my favorite as a kid. And Empire was my least favorite. Maybe thats your answer?
it is well-liked by normalgays, it's the hardcore turbo-autists who like edgy shit and pseudointellectuals that pretend movies are art that dislike it
Can you blame Lucas for going for Ewoks instead of Wookies? When production of RotJ began in late 1980/early 1981, the holiday special was still quite recent and people remembered it a bit (still unsure of what the hell they witnessed)
Do people really not like the death star 2 battle? I thought it was on par with ANH, especially when they are going in and out.
>Do people really not like the death star 2 battle?
No one in their right mind bad mouths DS battle, anon. It's technically superior, maybe even thematically minus the rehash aspect of the thing itself.
Hamill also is on record for saying that once he read the story for Jedi's ending he told George Lucas:
>....Well that's kind of pat.
to which Lucas basically replied, "Yeah no shit, it's mostly for kids."
No offense, but everyone who likes Rogue One is mentally stuck at 14 years of age.
And they're bad persons.
>Somehow, the Death Star returned
>Darth Vader's redemption
>Obi-Wan sitting on a log talking to Luke via the lifestream
>Luke killing Jabba's guards despite being there under the pretense of negotiations
>Jabba taking the offering of two bog standard droids that have almost no value
I could probably come up with more but I gotta go mow my lawn, so I'll check back later. Ultimately it just comes down to the story feeling rushed and not making sense in context. The Empire's ultimate defeat on Endor made them appear stupid. Like they put all of their eggs in the previous baskets and now seem to be less equipped than the rebels.
, the Death Star returned
>First rule in government spending, why have one when you can build two at twice the price?
, the Death Star returned
As a kid, and it turns out, many were the same, I was convinced that the first Death Star just sort of half blew up. Keep in mind that I was a young kid who ignored or forgot about the opening text crawl during its initial run.
Its the best of the trilogy, theatrical cut, btw.
Its also funny how it doesnt have a clear structured second act, it goes from Tattooine straight to the Endor assault, which is tight. Needless to say, Vader/Luke/Emperor is kino of the highest order. Even if you HATED the ewooks (which are great) this would trump it anyway. And Lukes smirk, when the three force ghosts appear and Leia pulls him away, just as a remidner to not dwell on the afterlife....amazing shit.
Forgive us, George.
Introduces the goofy aspect of Lucas that infected the rest of his career to varying degrees.
>allegedly the worst real SW movie
>gets talked about far more than the others
Huh that's odd.
because it had a lot of potential, a lot of different ways it could have gone
and like the PT does constantly, it makes a lot of poor choices
>and like the PT does constantly, it makes a lot of poor choices
haha I can't believe you can even compare the two. Lucas was younger and more fun when he made the originals, so they're better. Then later he made more that are vastly inferior, yet still infinitely entertaining because he's a good storyteller.
>Lucas was younger and more fun when he made the originals, so they're better.
see: all the posts ITT about his marriage falling apart during its making, leading to him scrapping his original ROTJ and beyond plans for the franchise
>leading to him scrapping his original ROTJ and beyond plans for the franchise
But that's untrue, he made lots of related SW material to keep it going until at least 1987, with Star Tours, the two Ewok films that saw theatrical releases outside of America, two animated series, breakfast cereals complete with new footage of real special effects, you name it.
But I will say that the period of 1988-1990 were quiet years for Wars, but that soon changed in 1991 when a SW book came out that was so good Boomers and their parents were reading it, that's what led to the '97s special editions, which directly led to the prequels, which led to the sequels..
>But that's untrue
Boba Fett was supposed to be what became ROTJ's main villain, and Lucas was going to do another trilogy that would wrap up the Vader-Luke-Palpatine storyline
he gave up on all of that to wrap everything up in ROTJ instead
at that time he had no serious plans to make the PT, and everything else in the interim he barely touched himself
he left it all to LF and the EU people
>According to Miller: “Originally Boba Fett was set up in Empire as a character, and the third movie’s plot was going to be more about Boba Fett, rescuing Han Solo and all of that. Boba was gonna be the main villain… That was set up, why he was taking Han Solo away, why there was a thing with him in the Christmas special.”
>it was Lucas’ own fatigue and franchise ennui that ultimately nixed his plans to tackle multiple Star Wars trilogies in a row. Thus, the Original Trilogy closer that we got in Return of the Jedi ended up becoming a mad scramble to tie-up several of the loose ends that were originally planned to unravel in a more methodical, slow-burn manner. It all would have potentially led into a version of the Sequel Trilogy that would have climaxed with Luke Skywalker’s final showdown with Darth Vader and Emperor Palpatine, upon which the Rebellion would achieve its final victory.
https://www.denofgeek.com/movies/boba-fett-return-of-the-jedi-villain/
>Boba Fett was supposed to be what became ROTJ's main villain, and Lucas was going to do another trilogy that would wrap up the Vader-Luke-Palpatine storyline
Yes that was yet another idea. Can't say I like it much and I doubt it would have worked anywhere near as well as Jedi wrapped it all up. Bobe Fett just wasn't a believable mastermind.
>I doubt it would have worked anywhere near as well as Jedi wrapped it all up.
the trilogy after would have allowed far more time for Vader to rehumanize, so it wasn't the abrupt shift from badass wizard robot in ESB to moody, whiny emo b***h of Palpatine in ROTJ
the whole main storyline would have had much more room to evolve and close out better
whatever ROTJ would have been might have suffered a bit if Boba wasn't done right as a villain, but the whole series would have been better off
>but the whole series would have been better off
I really don't think so. It had to be the way it was otherwise we wouldn't be talking. The Jedi we got was so good we didn't want it to end, but we accepted it, sort of, see:
>It had to be the way it was otherwise we wouldn't be talking.
think we'd be talking about the series either way
>think we'd be talking about the series either way
No way, I can't believe it for a second. The OT hit it out of the park and could not be bettered.
>the trilogy after would have allowed far more time for Vader to rehumanize, so it wasn't the abrupt shift from badass wizard robot in ESB to moody, whiny emo b***h of Palpatine in ROTJ
>the whole main storyline would have had much more room to evolve and close out better
Maybe, but to be honest I think the novelty of everything would have worn increasingly thin. Vader, stormtroopers, Jedi shenanigans, etc. would have all become too routine and familiar. I recognize that EU diehards would probably disagree, but I think it needed to wrap up. I think ROTJ could have been a much better movie, though.
>Bobe Fett just wasn't a believable mastermind.
and he wouldn't have had to have been a mastermind, as the whole plot of the series wouldn't have hinged on him
After the fun Jabba stuff, Han and Chewy and Leia have nothing to do and just dink around in the woods with teddy bears. Too many of the main cast just waste screen time and none of it is that fun like the Jabba stuff.
i liked it the most as a kid and im starting to favorite it again
It was the first movie to establish the Empire as a joke. Stormtroopers would never be a threat after this movie, only a joke.
The tattooine stuff is fun kino, the final encounter between Vader, Luke and The Emperor is Star Wars at it's best. A lot of the Endor stuff is filler compared to those parts, but still fun
it's a movie that slogs in the 2nd half, but unironically has some of the greatest scenes ever.
It's the best one it has flying motorcycles in big trees and the ewoks are cute and Leia is pretty in her cozy forest outfit. Also red and green light saber fight and electricity fingers. Atats but with horse legs. Hole in ground eats Boba fett, Luke kicks ass now 10/10
>me, age 8, 1993
my opinion will not change
>>me, age 8, 1993
>my opinion will not change
baste
Literally Ewoks. Jedi is my favorite of the 6. Original RotJ. I honestly don't mind them. But the Lucasfied version of the movie is nowhere near as good. Watch the original if you can.
Lapti Nek > Jedi Rocks
Yub Nub > Victory Celebration
Beakless sarlacc > beaked sarlacc
Old Anakin > Young Anakin
Not only is Yub Nub a better ending. It flows into the end credits theme way WAY better than Victory Celebration. And it makes more sense from a story standpoint. The audience already knows the implication of Emperor Palpatine and his right hand man dying means. We already know the galaxy is finally free and the Sith are at last defeated. We don't need to see the entire galaxy simultaneously celebrating. It only makes sense if Papa Palps was broadcasting the battle across the entire Empire. Which is admittedly something he'd do but it's never shown once in the movie. Seems like if he was doing that he'd use it to taunt Luke.
>heh heh, the entire galaxy is going to witness you and your friends' failure heheheheheheh
So how the frick does the entire galaxy instantly know the Emperor is dead? The Empire still has their high command, regional governers and a good amount of admirals and generals. They'd use every propaganda trick they could to suppress as much info about their crushing defeat as possible. Or go full revenge boner guerilla warlord like Daala did.
Check it.
Start at 2:00 if you don't want to sit through it.
vs
Again, skip to 2:00 if'n ya want
>So how the frick does the entire galaxy instantly know the Emperor is dead?
Back then way over there they had better radios.
>But the Lucasfied version of the movie is nowhere near as good.
always true
the SE is so jarring
Because its full of boring shit, atleast in Empire Strikes Back you had comfy Dagobah
This will always be the real post-ROTJ Star Wars, not the Disney crap.
Based. Had a lot of low points, but the best highs SW ever had.
>but the best highs SW ever had
Sad part is that you unironically believe this.
Not perfect, but a frick ton of a lot better.
>Cade front and center
Vile.
Star Wars fans ALWAYS had shitty taste, since forever
A lot of critics at the time preferred ROTJ over ESB. ESB was seen as being too dark and adult (make of that what you will), whereas ROTJ recaptured the perceived superior tone of ANW.
>getting Han back at Jabba's palace feels like a separate adventure from everything else happening
>Han and Leia have nothing to do the rest of the movie
>Chewbacca is reduced to a feral animal doing dumb shit
>Ewoks; should have been Wookies instead
>the Empire acts moronic, even for Star Wars it's really bad
>reveal that Leia is Luke's sister is just revealed in a single line of dialogue with no buildup and has zero implications for the story anyway
>Yub Nub is a shitty song and it's the last thing you hear
>more kid friendly and dumbed down than New Hope and especially Empire Strikes Back
>boring cinematography
>Harrison Ford doesn't give a shit and phones in his performance
the confrontation in the throne room and Vader's redemption are the only things keeping Return of the Jedi from being a bad movie and instead it's merely average
Return of the Jedi is already a more compromised film as opposed to the other 2, compromised due to toy sales, studio interference, poor director, Carrie fisher on drugs, Harrison ford fricking Carrie fisher. And to make matters worse, it is the film that is hurt the most by the specialised edition, to a cringeworthy degree, Jedi rocks is genuinely awful, the celebration ending is bad, Anakin is the wrong actor.
Some of the more fundamental flaws are:
Second death star.
Han does nothing, and acts goofy after being rescued (which they spend half the film doing)
Ewoks are annoying (One of my teachers swore of star wars after seeing ewoks)
From a film language aspect, the film is dramatically worse than ESB, far less dynamic, the shots have the signature George Lucas stiltedness, with none of careful construction that made them work in ANH.
Lucas was told to frick off and stay in a corner while the people who knew what they were doing made Empire. Once Empire became a huge hit, Lucas weaseled his way back in and had near total control over Jedi, which is why that movie feels so flat and uninspired in the storytelling and visuals in comparison
>uh, actually Star Wars is only good when Lucas didn't have anything to do with it!
you fricking cretins deserve Disney, with every fiber of your being you are responsible for the sequel trilogy and you fricking deserve it you moldy rotten vicious verminous pondscum, you Black folk are EVERYTHING wrong with Star Wars, and I'm glad you are finally as miserable as the people you've been denigrating for years you filthy fricking parasites
George Lucas' excessive involvement in ROTJ is a reason why the film isn't as good as ESB, his directing style is blander and the film was compromised for toy sales, this isn't really debatable.
George Lucas is literally to blame for alot of what people complain about in modern films.
nah you're just a gay moron who should kill himself
Don't forget
>No....
>NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
At the time it actually was. Even as late as the '90s, the debate over the best Star Wars movie was between Empire and Jedi (see the famous exchange in Clerks). It was only after the Special Editions and came out that things started to change, and then after Phantom Menace, certain people tried to draw comparisons between the ewoks and Jar Jar, which is just stupid.
Note, I'm taking about the fandom here, not the critics. The critics were pretty lukewarm towards both Empire and Jedi.
who the frick cares what critics think, they gave the 1977 best picture oscar to Annie Hall
Annie Hall is pretty good.
>certain people tried to draw comparisons between the ewoks and Jar Jar, which is just stupid.
?t=90
The people with actual talent who made ANH great in spite of Lucas and ESB the best one without him wanted a bittersweet ending. The empire is defeated but Han Solo is dead, Luke walks alone into the sunset, and Leia faces the daunting task of fixing the political mess left with the emperor gone. Unfortunately Lucas was done selling toys by that point and took more creative control so we got a teddy bear luau instead, and the special editions and prequels not long after.
FYI the first two original movies are preserved by the library of congress' film archives but not RotJ because a few highlights it sucks compared to the other two.
>and ESB the best one without him
this is an outdated meme
It's the truth and being a contrarian about it isn't going to change that.
I bet some hardcore george lucasites would defend the specialised editions.
There's a 4 hour long Youtube video essay that ineptly tries.
Anyone got a picture of the DVD collection of the OT and Prequels where they put all the original trilogy character in a small area where they'd always be covered up by the DVDs or a booklet or something?
I think you're talking about Tsuneo Sanda's art.
Kino https://youtu.be/IKxzI4LuNSU?t=13
>one small fighter is capable of destroying a gargantuan executor star destroyer by ramming it
This is where Star Wars became moronic.
>This escape pod is empty, don't blow it up
It was always moronic.
i like how you can see the frame of the car drove through something to create the explosion
>Why is Return of the Jedi not as well liked?
Because the second Death Star wasn't completed. Do you know how many independent civilian contractors died when the rebels blew it up? Jfc man, have a heart.
the stupid care bears pieces of shit
by the time of the PT the whole series was only ever supposed to be 6 movies and he knew its plot arcs from beginning to end with ANH
>whole series was only ever supposed to be 6 movies
Until he changed his mind again, of course.
I think a lot of people didn’t like the shift in tone back to a more lighthearted movie like ANH because Empire is fairly dark for a Star Wars movie. It’s still good though, has one of the best tracks in all of SW and I like the Endor aesthetics with camo rebels and scout troopers.
>literal teddy bears obviously there just to sell toys
>said teddy bears massacre stormtroopers making them look like a total joke
>leia asspulled to be luke's sister
>another death star, but now it's even bigger!
>gets destroyed the same way but now they didn't even need the force to do it
Don't get me wrong, I don't hate it and it's nowhere near as bad as most of the later movies but the criticism is valid.
Despite all the good points others have made about the movie's flaws, I will say this: it has probably the best space battle I've ever seen. The depth of perspective is immense, ranging from the tiny fighters to the capital ships to the Death Star and then to Endor, which creates a real three dimensional sense of swooping and diving.