Why should I care about Dune when the only genre fiction author worth reading hated it?
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Why should I care about Dune when the only genre fiction author worth reading hated it?
cool
btw I watched Dunc part 2 in cinema twice and can't wait for part 3 :^)
I saw it twice also and wish to see it this friday in imax before they pull it. Stupendous movie.
Is Lord of the Rings genre fiction, literary fiction or exactly in between?
Literary, the genre didn't exist functionally until LOTR.
What is it about Tolkien that inspires such feats of Dunning-Krugerism?
Not only did he invent fantasy, now he invented genre fiction!
(neither is remotely true)
he solidified fantasy as a genre and largely defined what it is today. no he didn't invent it, but what is considered fantasy is different before and after tolkein.
can you elaborate on this? what exactly did he do or change?
>he solidified fantasy as a genre
I am positive that the man himself would backhand you for saying that
The Lion, the witch and the wardrobe came out 4 years earlier bro
what is it about your reading comprehension
>fantasy stories weren't written until Tolkien did it
Tolkien didn't even do anything original, let alone create the genre. His popularity is only due to drug culture hippies with no literary frame of reference latching on to his work because it was accessible and appealed to their dudeweed understanding of his anti-industrial romanticism. Ironically not very different from Dune. Without childish middleclass pseuds looking for escapist validation in the 60s nobody would give a frick today.
>being so very wrong while being even wronger
Tolkien got popular because he was popular for his academic work and it spread into those circles, meaning college students picked it up from their teachers and spread from their you dumb frick.
Most of Tolkien’s conservative fans do not actually read and are poorly educated.
They really truly believe that Tolkien created fantasy an that everything after him is derived from him. But fail to grasp he himself is derivative of writers like the Grimm Bros, Hans Christian Andersen, John Milton and others.
Tolkien absolutely created fantasy, everything before that was folklore, mythology and fairy tales. Similar in content but completely different structurally
>Tolkien absolutely created fantasy
The only stuff you can point to as being fantasy that predated Tolkien is pulp fiction like Conan, which is good but not really the same genre.
>The only stuff you can point to as being fantasy that predated Tolkien is pulp fiction like Conan
Lewis Carroll, George McDonald, etc...
You can get away with calling that proto-fantasy but they have much more in common with old-fashioned fairytales.
>fairytales
Did you miss the part where everyone says Tolkien just mixed WW1 with European fairytales?
>proto-fantasy
Oh... so like Homer's Odyssey, or the Epic of Gilgamesh?
Tolkien was a hack that only wrote one story which was extremely derivative.
wrong anyway, ywnbaw
>The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings is one story.
>Tolkien didn't write any other books.
Technically correct; the best kind.
>ywnbaw
Sort of like I'm a male because I was born with a penis, and didn't let you "jews" trim it or brainwash me into lopping it off.
Name another book by Tolkien that has nothing to do with "le shire folks". You can't because you can't so you won't.
4vpp
Farmer Giles of Ham
>Sort of like I'm a male because I was born with a penis, and didn't let you "jews" trim it or brainwash me into lopping it off.
Im not american, israeli or muslim so I am not mutilated. LOTR>DUNE
>blatantly stolen elves and magicians and goblins and hating white people technology is le good
>shitting on zealots and creating technology to better humanity is le bad
Any of Herbert's Dune or non-Dune books > Tolkien's single story.
>hating white people technology is le good
huh?
on zealots and creating technology to better humanity is le bad
huh?
Oh, its another LARPER
>huh?
>huh?
Do you always talk about things you don't know anything about? Like the fact Tolkien hates white people technology? Or the fact Herbert shit on religious zealots?
Frick off with your TTS homosexualry you can't even read.
>the fact Tolkien hates white people technology
white people tech is liberalism and cuckholding
all yeah all that liberal cuckholding is why only white people footprints are on the moon...
That was back when White people actually had a drive and will. Modern Whites are not even close to the men of those caliber, and you know the Eucharist was taken on the moon by a religious zealot and Von Braun be came a devout Chirstphag
he hated destruction of natural beauty, not technology
you're a fricking moron, go read a book you dumb Black person
Sometimes us white people use destruction as an invaluable tool for creation. Something you brown destructoids wouldn't understand because you can't create or even maintain our white people technology.
There's a fun documentary about you called Empire of Dust. Since you can't read maybe should watch it.
Bigmad that the Christian Enlightenment was actually real? topmost fricking kek
>Bigmad that the Christian Enlightenment was actually real? topmost fricking kek
what? My point is White people are lame and not the people they were 100 years ago and almost all liberals and cucks, instead of b***hing about browns do something about your plumetting birthrate and how White countries wont exist in 100 years
you've never read a book in your life
white people are going to be a minority in their own country in 50 years, focus on having kids not larping
It’s like saying sci-fi existed before Verne. That might be technically accurate but he did so much to turn the genre into its modern form that he’s regarded as the founder.
>Homer’s odyssey or the epic of Gilgamesh
Those are epics, a very specific genre that isn’t even prose. Similar in content to fantasy but completely different structurally
>Homer's Odyssey, or the Epic of Gilgamesh
Those are historical accounts, not fiction.
Funny how every time you get blown the frick out you slightly change the goalposts or argue semantics? Perhaps you should learn to stop making incorrect blanket statements about media?
As an American, for me it's Heinlein.
Haven't seen that pic for ages.
>Sometimes us white people use destruction as an invaluable tool for creation. Something you brown destructoids wouldn't understand
That is odd since prominent brownoid religions have a very strong theme of death->life cycle, arguably much more than Abrahamic European religions.
Costs money to (responsibly) have kids though, and too much individualistic pride to just frick like monkeys then whine for gibs.
>Costs money to (responsibly) have kids though
No it doesent, not even close thats a anti natalist lie, just have 2-3 and most governments give you gibs, also nothing wrong with abusing government gibs especially In an anti White government
Everything you trotted out as a precursor to lotr is already in a different genre. Most of them aren’t even novels.
>That is odd
I dunno... The Romans invented hydraulic mining for example. It was rather destructive the environment. The reward was the acquisition of raw materials to make tools or fine art. Check out Las Médulas for example.
>McDonald
mcdonnie discusses the genre of his work in multiple places. in the preface of light princess he explains his preferred term is fairy tale, or the german mahrchen which has no english equivalent
Lord Dunsany wipes the floor with that south-african-born peon.
>Tolkien absolutely created fantasy, everything before that was folklore, mythology and fairy tales. Similar in content but completely different structurally
are you a fricking moron? If you want to get technical about modern fantasy and it's creation DnD created what we think of as modern fantasy out of a pastiche of Tolkien's works, culture is neither simple nor clear on where you would really trace the creation of something. Tolkien himself would likely despise the pale shadows that were created in his wake of his myths. Every single modern fantasy trope is the exact opposite of his message, same reason he didn't like Dune.
It's genre fiction and I don't see the argument for it being anywhere in between. It's the standard for fantasy epics. The books revolve entirely around the plot, and the characters are staple archetypes with almost zero character progression.
I think the only ones with real character progression are the hobbits, particularly Merry and Pippin. The whole Scouring of the Shire is there to show how they've matured and grown.
This makes sense to me, since the other characters are met outside of the Shire and are fully mature and established in their ways. Even then Gandalf has a significant change of character when he gets resurrected.
Wasn't Tolkien trying to write in the genre of old European mythology? Makes sense that most of the characters would be flat then.
Genre fiction, since it's worth reading.
Literary fiction is masturbatory tripe. None of the interesting content of genre fiction, and none of the educational value (and interesting content) of history: it has no purpose.
Idk why people got so moronic with these things
Genre fiction does not mean
>book that has a genre
it means
>book that rigidly conforms to a genre in order to be marketable towards a lowest common denominator audience
If you hear someone describing a genre fiction book, you will not be able to distinguish it from another genre fiction book of the same genre, unless it is "high concept" (just meaning it's plot has some kind of contrived gimmick that only exists to sound cool)
It's Conan pastiche.
No homosexual muscle men running around in speedos though
thanks for confirming you've never read a Conan novel in your life
fricking secondaries should all be shot
Genre fiction if the genre in question is mythology.
They're just labels used by pretentious people to pretend their dumb opinions are objective fact. "Genre fiction" means "thing I don't like" and "literary fiction" means "thing I like." That's it, there's nothing more to it.
I find the distinction meaningless as the contents of the book alone is what defines it
There is ton of crap "literary" fiction with much less literary merit than some genre fiction.
Tolkien was fine.
its nonfiction
So true
A wizard does not write genre fiction, nor does he write literary fiction
He writes precisely what he means to
it's elfslop
neither, its fantasy which is different for fiction or science fiction
>fantasy, a genre of fiction, is neither fiction or science fiction
Nice of him to be diplomatic about it.
now imagine if Andrei Tarkovsky had reviewed it instead
Why would he like it?
irrelevant. Tolkien disliked a lot of good stuff for offending his sensibilities, and liked a lot of mediocrity just for being his brand of mediocrity.
not the biggest fan of Dune but what would Tolkien's opinion of, for instance, Book of the New Sun been? probably would've despised it.
Tolkien would have liked BOTNS because of his Catholicism. He disliked Dune for the sake reason, being as Dune is essentially a Godless book where religious belief is 100% a cynical tool.
Dune simply isn't anglo enough for Tolkien
>devout Catholic hated book about space Mohammad
I'm shocked.
I love sci fi, space opera and sci fi horror.
I liked some of the OG Trek and DS9. Also liked Battle Star Galactica and Stargate.
I liked Rogue One and Andor and the Phantom Menace and the Clone Wars.
I liked Pandorum, Event Horizon, and Alien Resurrection.
I liked Legends of the Galactic Heroes and Outlaw Star and Cowboy Bebop.
I like watching all those 10 min sci for shorts from DUST on youtube. And that youtube original "Origins" was incredible.
But for the fricking life of me nothing about Dune seems interesting at all. I genuinely don't give a shit. Like genuinely truly can't even sit through a movie trailer on it. I don't know why.
It's because you have a high IQ anon.
Literally me. I'm reading 15 year old Halo novels but I have zero interest in reading dune
>I'm reading 15 year old Halo novels
yeah i read them when i was a teenager. passable sci fi with some good stories but doesn't hold a candle to dune's world building.
>I love slooooop so much bros
>But I fricking can't stand the trailer of a good sci-fi movie
>Why is that bros
Probably the desert setting.
I agree, nothing about DUNC grabs me at all. I grew up with star wars, halo, i read hyperion and liked it, i've read other scifi and i generally like scifi but absolutely nothing about DUNC appeals to me. i tried watching the first one and it was a goddamn slog, no other way to describe it, turned it off 3/4 the way through i think.
I had the same experience watching the original dune movie, I got most of the way through it and just didn't care. I read the first hyperion book all the way through though and I disliked it severely, the only part I enjoyed was the portion with the moron colony.
>I read the first hyperion book all the way through though and I disliked it severely
So you never even got to the good books in the series? You can literally skip the first book and still understand the rest.
I was disgusted by all of the sexual portions. I don't mind sex in literature, there was just a lot in hyperion that disgusted me and made me not want to read any more, whatever the word that's the opposite of "entertainment" is how I'd describe it. I might give another book a shot on audiobook while I'm at work.
>I was disgusted by all of the sexual portions
I only read the first book once and don't recall any sex scenes. But I have read the rest of the story many times and can assure you it is night and day different
it's been over a decade and I don't remember it clearly, but I do remember the portion where the soldier(?) guy has a sexual encounter with some kind of advanced doppleganger being that has a lot of violence surrounding it. I remember reading that and some other parts of the book that for me were the reading equivalent of wading through four feet of shit and broken glass.
Can you please not use such crude language? It's gross and makes you look uneducated.
frick off Black person
Can you please not use such crude language? It's gross and makes you look uneducated.
frick off Black person
at least I don't waste other peoples time with tautology in my language.
>has a sexual encounter with some kind of advanced doppleganger
Oh yeah, forgot about that, It does serve a purpose for the story though and comes back to be a plot point. The first book is a hard read. But there is a style change and it becomes much much much more interesting
It's because Dune isn't really sci-fi beyond some of the set dressing, it's a fantasy political-thriller about the dangers of religion with a tiny dash of science behind it. The science fiction elements are mostly irrelevant or set dressing, and often are presented as fantastical anyways thanks to the whole "Butlerian jihad" thing.
The other thing that makes Dune hard to get into even for fans of the genre is that it requires extensively consulting the appendices for all kinds of relevant information about it's characters and setting because the prose itself does absolutely nothing to explain the basic ideas and concepts that make up the setting. It's an extremely laborious and tedious read the first time around, like reading a fricking 700 page academic paper more than a fiction novel. It's much, much better on the second or third read when you know more about the setting. The first two or three times I tried to get into Dune I hated it until I forced myself to get used to flipping to the appedecies mid paragraph over and over.
Just expanding on my own post, another serious flaw in Dune is that Paul is kind of a boring character, at least in the first book. He's the literal definition of a chosen one Gary stu with no real faults or weaknesses and it's just boring. I get that he needs to be that way for the story Herbert wanted to tell, but it's just not that interesting. Every other character in the book is frankly more interesting, and usually even fans of Dune are more likely to be interested in characters like Baron Harkonnen, Duncan Idaho, Gurney Halleck, Feyd, Jessica, Stilgar, etc. Paul is both the main POV and the crux around which everything revolves and I think the story actually suffers for it.
Just say you're a fricking moron with a mental age of eight, it's quicker. Why eight? Because at nine I read all the Dune books and had no issues understanding them at all. Just because you have to run your finger along the page and mouth out the words doesn't mean everyone else is that dumb.
Bashirhomosexual you're moronic and have shit taste. You like DS9 because of Garak being gay. I've never read or watched Dune, but I know how bad your perceptions are.
Herbert is a much better writer than Tolkien. Dune is far more readable page by page
what you didn't enjoy the endless songs, poems, depictions of flowers and mountains every page.
>the only genre fiction author worth reading
It's okay that the only fantasy you've read is LOTR and part of ASOIAF, you don't need this bullshit rationalization
It’s all for gay nerds anyhow
Go to bed Brandon.
you just enjoy the kino (this is Cinemaphile btw) and ignore the bloated book
Form you own opinions. People aren't arbiters of everything just cuz they're famous or good at one thing. I've read and enjoyed LOTR and Dune
Was Tolkien even an author? He fantasized the story of World War 1 across four books... Herbert wrote 20+ books and only a few were Dune related.
Why would you care about either when you can read something by E. E. "Doc" Smith, H.P. Lovecraft, H.G. Wells, or Jules Verne? Each of which are orders of magnitude better than the first two mentions?
And why would you read any of those authors when you can cut the line and go for the best - Tolstoy, Walter Scott, Balzac, Turgenev?
I read EE Smith because once I found out every single sci-fi author that came afterward copied something from one or more Lensmen book. Also his books have the largest and coolest space battles conceived. I read H.G. Wells and Jules Verne because they were high school assigned readings.
I read Lovecraft because I like cats.
I honestly don't know. Tolkien's 4 whole books are long-winded and meandering. If I wanted to read about WW1 I would have read something from a historian not a folklore thief trying to explain war to kids.
>an European man crafting stories based in folklore native to his country and continent is "a folklore thief"
I'm aware that we all like joking about stuff, but isn't that a woke newspeak term for having inspiration, any at all, from existing native folklore, which is hated by the leftist culture engineers because it signifies history, tradition and blood ties of a given nation/nations, instead of treating countries as if they were corporations with different names, where anyone can be considered a part of it, regardless of origin?
Wasn't he more an academic that wrote as a hobby?
basically yes but then it did consume him mostly. the whole thing is just stuff that he likes, he's not a standard novel-writing author he was way more interested in making a mythology that could have actually happened, with all the gaps filled in.
>smugly assert yourself above tolkien
>with the mindnumbingly moronic take that it's an allegory for WW1
dunning-kruger in full swing
>mindnumbingly moronic take that it's an allegory for WW1
yeah, gay, i'm the only person in history (including the homosexuals own family) that figured out Tolkien's books are a cross between WW1 and European folklore...
Smith at least invented the space opera, and wrote more than one story. Herbert's Dune works may be a bit derivative, but as I previously mentioned essentially all modern space sci-fi has copied Smith in some way (you might see a lot of 3 Body Problem talk lately... for those of us in the know it's blatantly derivative of Smith's Lensmen books).
>dunning-kruger in full swing
indeed... the absolute irony is totally lost upon your fedora tipping dumbass self
>figured out
no moron, you misread
wrong. Tolkien is a hack that wrote 4 boring books and some really bad songs and poems about WW1 x fairies. prove me wrong. you can't so you won't.
I notice you have arguments against everything else I've stated... what's the matter don't you read books?
The burden of proof lies on you, the claimant. You dumb ape.
>reddit spacing
>irrelevant image of shitty composer as some sort of appeal to authority
have a nice day subhuman
>reaction face is appeal to your le authoritay
read a book, untermensch
>What is their best novel then?
I dunno about Smith's "best", but everyone seems to blatantly copy Triplantery. From Verne I like Journey to the Center of the Earth.
you wanna call yourself an author you better write more than 1 story... thus Tolkien really isn't an author...
not an argument. Tolkien sucks kek
*Triplanetary
>E. E. "Doc" Smith,
>Jules Verne
What is their best novel then?
>Jules Verne
Any that was illustrated by Gustave Dore
Smith's Lensman saga is a feat I think most authors today can't even pull off much less 80+ years ago and create the space opera genre at the same time.
Jules Verne had wonderful ideas but they're incredibly dull outside of that
>1D characters
>wikipedia/how-to guides disguised as part of the plot
>Was Tolkien even an author? He fantasized the story of World War 1 across four books
So you have 4 good reasons to claim he was an author
What kind of shitty argument is that? What's the number of books required to be a "true" author for you? 10? 20?
It’s always nice to see an absolutely moronic chimp strutting about to make you feel better about yourself
E. E. Doc Smith is good
Do you think lansman could be made into movie?
>Promotes equality
>Also promotes eugenics and nonwhites are nonexistent
Lovecraft is trash though
Damn. I had no idea Tolkien was such a pleb.
>Science Fiction
>Intensely critical of organized religion
>Subversion of the "Chosen One" trope
>Islamophiliac
>Written by an American
Well no shit he hated it
Tolkien actually liked Sci-Fi. Asimov was one of his favourite writers
it's called dunk and who the frick is token?
>W-why should I-I stop sucking this author's dick when t-this other a-author's dick I suck said he hated it?
LOTR is fantasy kino for christians
Dune is fantasy kino for muslims
ASOIAF is fantasy kino for atheists
This is how I know you are all like 15 here. Tolkien is writing Christian books. Dune is a far left postmodern hellscape that is just about money and crap like that. a proto-GoT. Find Christ you zoomers.
God isn't real you fricking man child.
There is no good reason to believe in that crap and you thinking you've figured out some grand shit and needing others to believe in it too is narcissism. There is zero evidence for anything supernatural. There are no good arguments for theism at all. you frickers are such ass clowns it's insanity to me.
Theism is narcissism.
Why in the fricking hell would you have any idea regarding some all power thing that created it all who cares about? why the frick would you live forever in perfection after you die? wtf? That's completely ridiculous
Look the world and see the people that go around believing in this shit the most. They are savages. You gonna get on your knees when some sand Black folk tell you to shut the frick up and believe in muhammad? nah you're gonna tell him to go frick himself because that's moronic
Intelligent old farts that died 100 years ago and believed in this shit doesn't mean it's substantiated in anyway. Extremely high iq people in the past believed in moronic crap all the time. Go take shrooms or some shit and figure out that you don't even exist. theism is such childsplay if you actually wanna figure shit out
So what's highschool like for you anon? Imagine if you spent all that typing on your 1000 word history assignment instead of ranting like an autistic edgelord on your sekrit club 4chinz
The best evidence that god is real is that we have a concept of good, we have a concept of beauty. our world is a mere imitation of shadows on the wall. It is why we have something instead of nothing. Not only is there a God but he is as incredible, the calvary is really coming, but we have to go through this trial first. When you realize this, everything clicks.
I personally believe in Christ, but I respect that Muslims believe in their own version of God. Yes there are terrorists, but a true Muslim lives a devout life that we can all learn from. I am more of the Christ persuasion that I believe that we are in a fallen world, whereas they believe everything is perfect.
>conflating plato with christian metaphysics
la mao
Quads eternally blows the frick out of all fedora tippin atheists
Divination is a sin according to your holy book. Go repent.
Why are there so many Christians on Cinemaphile? Why are you on the hatefilled anime and porn website?
We went so hard on non-conformity that conformity is now non-conformist.
This basically. They have no principals other than “do the opposite of the current thing.” Look how quickly these spineless rats turned on the whole Covid China bio weapon narrative once the mainstream took it seriously. They went from thinking it was some virus made to destroy the world by China to now just denying it, acting like they didn’t have a hand in causing the lockdowns.
>They went from thinking it was some virus made to destroy the world by China to now just denying it, acting like they didn’t have a hand in causing the lockdowns.
I’ll speak for myself here: I watched the COVID stuff unravel with curiosity. At first it was reported to be some kind of disease that caused chinks to drop dead in the street, blackened your skin and necessitated sealing people up in their houses—our leaders called us racist for saying it came from China, and told us to go out and buy Chinese food in Chinatown. When lockdowns occurred we liked the two weeks off and only turned against lockdowns when we realized 1. COVID was just the flu 2. The anti-COVID policies were moronic and selectively enforced and 3. When shutting everything down, especially without stimulus checks was hurting more people than the actual disease. So, really that’s what changed my views on it—it wasn’t just contrarianism.
>anon conveniently forgets that the dems were the ones claiming the coof was a non issue at first, opposed travel bans and told everyone to go and hug a chink before you're racist otherwise
Oh no don’t get it twisted: they’re homosexuals too.
You can literally see this phenomenon happening in real time in the catalog, there's always at least one "Dan Schneider is innocent!" thread up, even though this very board is the place that spawned the pedo Dan rumors.
>Why are there so many Christians on Cinemaphile?
They are LARPers. I don't think I have ever seen an imageboard "christian" who actually knew anything about the religion or followed any of it. It's all just contrarians who think le crusaders are ebin and badass.
Because they're pussies who don't have the balls to hate women and gays without justifying it with a shallow facade of religious devotion.
I hate women and gays based purely on rationality, logic, and science, thank you very much.
Christianity is the ultimate truth and Cinemaphile is filled with truth seekers
>truth seekers
Imagine thinking all these smart ass scientists and doctors aren’t doing everything in their power to fleece you and every other normie for money.
imagine thinking that casting doubt makes you the morally superior fleece artist
scientists and doctors have done more for humanity than those of you that worship satan in your synagogues
I’m not trying to fleece anyone I just want to be left alone. I’m not a christcuck either I’m an old school antivaxx hippie. I’ll stand with the christcucks if they’re the only ones on my side in today’s fricked up world, I’ll never submit to big pharma
it's cringe when people act like tolkein invented fiction
You shouldn't.
>evident
that's how you know its genre fiction and not real literature lmao
And israeliteorge reddit reddit martin is?
>older literature
>look into the epic of gilgamesh
>protagonist is grey and often immoral
mhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Older pagan literature was full of black and white morality and promoted an objective sense of virtue. It’s just what they considered good and bad back then was very different to today.
Have you fricking read Homer? Milton? Shakespeare?
All older than Tolkien and wrote closer to GRRM than Tolkien in terms of morality.
And Tolkien wasn't clearly defined either. Or do we just ignore Gollum who is literally a conflicted character compromised of both good and evil. Or Boromir?
You clearly have no comprehension of the shit you read nor does the meme creator. Dumb frick.
Boromir isn't grey though hes gigachad good guy who wants to use the ring to destroy the orcs. He doesn't do anything grey he just gets tempted to take the ring but doesn't. His brother is even more of a gary stu.
Its a blatant critique of religion and myth, no shit tolkien wouldnt like it
Its still a well-written and fascinating book to read
>filtered by Dune
What did the “language master” really get filtered by some Arabic influenced words? His tushy hurt because its a direct reference to the evil british empire getting demolished? Just a butthurt boring old man who cant understand what scifi is about.
as much as I like lotr its pretty evident that tolkien had pretty thin skin and was not good at accepting other viewpoints. His atheist friend becomes Christian and Tolkien almost ends his friendship with him because he became the wrong kind of Christian.
>butthurt clueless villenueve slurpers attacking tolkein for not liking a book
no reason was given and he chose never to make his opinion public, yet here you are being insufferable aids vectors
anon denis villeneueve didnt write dune
Tolkien was big into religion as an idea an vehicle for hope and community. Dune is antithetical to all that for the same reasons. No shit he hated it.
That gif is hilarious as frick; I wish Tolkien could see it.
LotR left ZERO impression on me. I think to enjoy it you have to be one of those guys thats into lore and worldbuilding more than real substance and story.
What would Tolkien think of Rescue Run?
What would Tolkien think about Touhou?
Tolkien was a hack. Just ripped off old European folklore. Herbert actually tried to create something new.
>create something new
http://www.jacurutu.com/viewtopic.php?t=4054
Dune is just another pop sci-fi series, Conan the Barbarian has more literary depth than anything Frank Herbert wrote
Conan was written by a mentally ill homosexual who killed himself when his mommy died
Mentally ill people have famously never made any worthwhile art, all the greatest art is made by completely straight-laced suburbanites
>suburbanites
You mean like howard? Face it he was a homosexual plump little nerd and wrong power fantasies about being a cool muscle dude to cope. Also probably gay
Tolkien liked Conan
probably because Howard had a good understanding and love of human history and injected it into his stories
I wouldn't count his works among the great pieces of literature, but Conan as a character is basically a modern Gilgamesh and you can draw parallels to many mythological heroes
Tolkien literally ripped off Richard Wagner's Ring Cycle for LotR. Most shamelessly with Smeagol (there's a reason the tribe kvetches about that Tolkien character in particular). This has been intentionally obfuscated due to WWII and AH's love of Wagner and brief courting of his daughter.
>thinking Wagner invented Völsungasaga
jesus fricking christ
Tolkien was a god damned linguist, the Merton Professor of English Language and Literature
he understood Anglo-Germanic sagas well, and it shows in his writings because they all pull from these purely Eurocentric ideas
The Hobbit and The Children of Hurin were written before he attended The Ring
what you're seeing is two different creators drawing on the same story, and one of them had a better understanding of even more Sagas and pulled more concepts from them
Tolkien ripped off the Ring of Gyges too
>Tolkien: Brown people are…LE BAD
>Herbert: What if brown people were…LE GOOD
>Tolkien: goes on incel rampage
Lmao
It's because Dune sucks.
Man Tolkien IDF is big on Cinemaphile. But why? Hackson's flicks which Cinemaphile loves shat on his books.
>and in that unfortunate case it is much the best and fairest to another author to keep silent and refuse to comment
>>wow what a great letter, let's publish it alongside a ton of Tolkien's other private correspondence in our homosexual book
>wow what a great quote, it'll surely get me plenty of likes on xitter
>wow what a great tweet I should post a screenshot of it on Cinemaphile like a fricking Black person homosexual
Tolkien was a total autist who secretly hated his own culture and race for being so advanced and competent over the third world hordes. Hence why so many browns on Cinemaphile lionize his hatred of innovation and the English language.
I think Moorwiener likes dune though
>reading someone who's name is literally More wiener
No
To be fair, Dune is heavily Arab-inspired. Not being racist (mods), just Islam came from there and they're mostly Islamic. The history of Islam and its stifling consequences on the modern Arab world aren't super uplifting. He was basically saying something along the lines of "I'm not the target audience. I'm shutting up. Ask someone else."
I've never been able to get into dune. I always start reading or listening to the audiobook and lose all interest within the first hour or so. I've tried several times. I've sat through some really dry stuff, it's not boredom. dune repulses me. same thing that happens every time I try to get into the stargate television series.
>filtered by fricking dune and SG1
they're just too cheesy and stupid while taking themselves too seriously. bad combination. cheesy and fun, or chiseled and serious. anything in between is annoying.
>taking themselves too seriously
you have clearly never watched SG1. It is largely made fun of for not being serious enough. Perhaps you could say that if all you ever watched was the first season
yeah I never got more than 2-3 episodes in. for context I watched the entirety of all star trek series, I can sit through some corny shit. the beginning of stargate just annoys me.
skip the first season all together. I do anytime I rewatch it. You miss very little.
Robert E Howard didn't like Dune?
It's understandable that Tolkien would dislike Dune. The story of Dune, of the danger of heroes, is pretty much in direct opposition to the way Tolkien wrote of them. In Tolkien's work, heroes are good. Aragorn, the rightful ruler of humankind, is unquestionably a force for good. His very presence inspires men in their fight against an unquestionable evil. Paul inspires the Fremen to commit genocide across the galaxy in his name, who believe that they're doing good. It's a rather dour view on heroism and Tolkien was a simple guy.
Dune characters are so fricking shit, it's impossible to feel attached to any of them.
>"Dear sir. I have, with much appreciation, received the copy of Frank Herbert's Dune that you promised me a week ago. It is a substantial book with much valid worldbuilding. However as I continued through the tome my stomach felt queasy and I had to rush to the bathroom with inestimable haste to projectile vomit and defecate so loudly that it woke my son, Christopher, from his slumber. This book may be to some people's tastes but, speaking for myself, it is a vile and insidious tale that made me expel last evening's supper at great velocity."
Herbert writes like an autistic guy in the 60s taking a lot of psychedelics. I prefer that style over Tolkien.
> Tolkien's personal copy of Dune.
> Please pass it on.
So uhh, who has it now?
tolkien is a hack. he's like the miyazaki of western fantasy literature.
All governments suffer a recurring problem: Power attracts pathological personalities. It is not that power corrupts but that it is magnetic to the corruptible. Such people have a tendency to become drunk on violence, a condition to which they are quickly addicted.
—Frank Herbert, Chapterhouse: Dune
You can just tell by the quote above that Tolkien would find Dune far too cynical.
What were Tolkien's tax policies?
imagine uniroincally complaining that an archetypical "wise king" didn't specify their tax policy, like he doesn't grasp the concept of abstraction
This is what happens when a typical midwit presents his shitty "hot takes" as "professional literary criticism".
The worst thing is ... we still don't know Aerys' or Roberts' tax policies.
To me, Dune always felt like it was a rich source of ideas executed better in the works it inspired. It's a bit like Dying Earth in that way.
>would you like me to return the book as I already have one, or to hand it on?
Was he autistic?
>anon is incapable of understanding basic courtesy
you'll never be as studied or creative as Tolkien so you'll have a different level of standards
So what did Pratchett say about it?
I like the first Rama book the rest are gay tho
There's more than one?
I liked it as well. Never bothered with the rest
I read Clarke for his ideas, not captivating plots and characters, and the idea was sufficiently explored in the first one
Why are tolkienoids such hero-worshiping bootlickers?
lotr books are not good, movies are
books are great, I even get emotional reading parts of them. rare for a book to pull that off, aside from making me laugh or making me angry.
It's the normal human reaction to reading what in essence is a drug fueled creation where you can find about author's most vile fetishes and sexual fantasies, set in a totalitarian kind of a world, where the ruler is omniscient, where this gift rationalizes mass murder, drug abuse and sexual exploitation of both sexes on a galactic scale. Sure, people who take an excessive interest in porn of any kind will certainly find the Dune Universe to be most suited to their deviant tastes.
It's a book worthy of note, but unworthy of praise, which is the most natural reaction of a man with principles.
Nasu hates Dune?
I've never been partial to Tolkiens Christcuck fan fiction for children
You live in different times, have other inclinations, aren't as smart, as prolific or as knowledgable.
homosexual.
What is it with people pretending these books for little children are important?
Good for you, OP! Never think for yourself, just accept what the experts say and you'll never go wrong!
Token suxs
if you read lotr(and the silmarillion) its extremely clear that its a story about characters
if you read dune its extremely clear that its a story about the world and the characters are secondary
so the authors of each of these world very clearly not like the works of the other.
Wrong, no genre fiction is worth reading. If it were worth reading it would just be literature, like Salammbo, not genre fiction.
I love horny pulp art so much bros
It's funny because the novel itself is neither horny nor pulpy, but it was marketed as such and probably did inspire a lot of later pulp fiction.
The same is true in all things. Art is meant to be transcendent, novel, an inspiration. Not ironic or meta-textual or derivative.
Both DUNC and LotR sucks. They are movies enjoyed only by midwits who never saw anything better. Worst than the capeshit and Fast and Furious audience since at least they know they like garbage.
dune is fricking trash
woke troony detected
Dune Messiah wipes its ass with Tolkiens best work.
LISAN AL GAIB!
LOTR is for lonely beta male losers and DUNC is for White chads that enjoy casual sex with mudslimes and shitskins
thats all you need to know
Honorable of Tolkien to not bash his contemporaries work and taint public perception with his respected opinion. More people could learn such honor and allow their contemporaries work to exist without comment if they dislike when they know some people hold their opinion in such high regard that a negative comment could prevent the work fron being judged on it's own merits.
And look now Dune is considered to be a masterpiece by the vast majority of the reading world.
It was wise and kind of Tolkien to not taint discussion on it.
I couldn't care less about Dune.
Frank Herbert the child abuser
Dunc is a wretched magic nonesense story
https://rumble.com/v4km6mx-the-truth-about-dune.html
Who the frick listens to over 2 hours of literally whos and their awful microphones?
Basedo, I was halfway through Dune 1 but I might just read the Space trilogy again.
The second half is way more fun to read.
Dune is capeslop AND Slop of Thrones
>Brit so pissy that an American wrote a superior book that he just says he hates it and refuses to elaborate on any way
why are the beanboys like this?
Brits are still seething about shit from medieval times. They're probably the most pathetic people in existence.
LOTR is far superior to dune, dune is just a copy of the sabres of paradise
I’d rather have LotR as some kind of neo folk mythology for England than what Americans have like Star Wars or something lmao
>neo folk mythology
Tolkien was writing a semi-fictionalized, allegorical account of ACTUAL history. He couldn’t come out and say this or he would have been in deep shit. He drops hints all over the place and his “HEY GUYS I HATE ALLEGORY THIS DEFINITELY ISN’T SYMBOLIC LOL” was just to cover his ass. Start analyzing the symbolism and it’s like Alex Jones wrote the book, I mean the main villain is literally the all-seeing eye on the top of the pyramid. Saruman goes from being a normal white guy to a rainbow-colored flamer who spends all his time arguing with his gay lover b***h boy who has AIDS. Tolkien even called the dick-sucking bottom “wormtongue.” How much more obvious can it get?
I know this was made for ragebait, but Dune actually sucks as a book.
It's Gary Stu white man's power fantasy with half the books being psychedelic trippy schlock. There's hardly any narrative
wow what a petty butthole.
sucks that it turns out most accomplished people are just arrogant and egotistical as you would expect.
>doesn't like a book
>chooses not to critique said book and sway readers opinions
>petty
He is British, he is not being civil he is being passive aggressive.
Here is a translation of the second letter into American English:
>I hated that piece of shit so much that I am not going to talk about it. I don't want it. Take it back.
yeah, but he didn't publish that in a paper, it was a private note to a guy who sent him a copy and wanted his opinion
he was saying: I fricking hate this shit, but I'm not commenting on it
>no, you see, the fact that he DIDN'T publically say he hated the book is what ACTUALLY makes him so heinous!
Pull your head out of your ass kek.
I love the Dune series, all of it, but they are not good books.
Once you get over that fact the world's your oyster.
>Tolkien loved driving cars
>some moron on Cinemaphile thinks he hated technology
I always skip the fellowship and move onto the two towers, i'm sorry but I can't enjoy the shire like he wanted to me too. Just so dull and boring. Peter jackson did a good job cutting most of the crap from the first book and combing two towers into the fellowship.
Lord of the Rings has sold over 150,000,000+ copies of books and has been translated into over 40+ languages.
Dune has only sold around 20,000,000 copies and has only been translated into 20ish languages.
This is like comparing Pokemon to Digimon, its not a real contest no matter the merits of the dark horse.
fricking harry potter sold more than Dune what's your point? that the world has millions more morons like you than it did 50 years ago? cool story...
>fricking harry potter sold more than Dune what's your point?
my point is that Dune is mid bargain bin trash from and the author is a literal-who-nobody next to Tolkien, one of the most culturally impactful fiction authors of modern western civilization. His ONE story has had infinitely more impact than all of Herbert's works combined.
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_fiction_authors
>Authors such as Jane Austen, Miguel de Cervantes, Alexandre Dumas, Charles Dickens, Arthur Conan Doyle, Victor Hugo, Jules Verne, Rick Riordan, Ernest Hemingway, Jack Higgins, Isaac Asimov and Leon Uris have not been included in the table because no exact figures could be found—although there are indications that they too have more than 100 million copies of their work in print.
Tolkien barely cracks the top 40, but more importantly has literally only written 1 story.
cool. if I wanted to read about WW1 I'd read from an actual historian. if I wanted to read about fairytales I'd read from an actual fantasy author...
there is literally nothing of impact in the story of "World War 1, but with gay elves, greedy israelite dwarves, and evil white industrial magicians"...
Post a picture of yourself with a time stamp. I want to see what kind of kippah you wear
>kippah
The Christian Bible has sold more copies of any other book in history. cope and seethe rabbi dumbfrickberg
Why would a israelite cope and seethe about his culture, mythos and deity of choice overwriting the ethnic faiths of the gentiles?
Sorry but your israelite smoke screen wont work here. You aren't going to successfully demonize tolkien. You time is better spent on Cinemaphile convincing trannies to cut their dicks off.
>still thinks it's an allegory
>still thinks he only wrote one story
you need to actually go read a book, not just watch movies to contribute to this discussion
but you keep defending your islamic rip-off, which lifted concepts and lines from a non-fiction book
but you don't know that, because you have never read a book before
>no arguments
>non sequitur
It's really too bad that Tolkien only wrote that one single long boring fictionalized story about World War 1 (replacing all the participants with shit copied from fairytales and previous actual fantasy authors).
Had Tolkien written more than the one single story and an autisticly terrible songs and poetry about the the one story perhaps we could call him an author of historical fiction...
The other authors mentioned ITT have entire arrays of literary work to discus. It's very telling that Tolkien doesn't.
Tolkien wrote a lot of stuff that was never published in his lifetime. It took place in the same universe but were different stories. By your logic homer only ever wrote one story
My argument is that you're fundamentally wrong, on every level
nothing you have posted is grounded in reality, or truth, so it cannot be taken at even face level
your posts are worthless, they are pointless, they are contrarian for the sake of being contrarian
you are less than a pajeet shillposter, you are lower than a bot: you are a israelite, a israeli rat pretending to be things you are not
it is clear by your method of attempting to argue without acknowledging anything based in reality that you are heeb, you have been unmasked rabbi
>non sequitur
>ad hominem
Learn how to read then take an English course.
pic related
>evil white industrial magicians
Kek Tolkien literally refers to black people as “half-trolls with white eyes and red tongues.” Saruman is portrayed as a gay rainbow orc-loving libshit. Not sure why you would worship industrialism if you like Hitler, the guy is the textbook example of a politician reining in the excesses of industrialism in order to protect the local environment.
>there is literally nothing of impact in the story
the main themes of lord of the ring are promoting the values of friendship, loyalty, honor, and perseverance, and HOPE.
the main themes in dune are pessimistic beliefs about how the universe is inherently corrupt and corrupts all who seek to fight corruption and anyone who bothers to successfully rise up against oppression then becomes the oppressor. its a very cynical and utilitarian world view. a sort of dystopian science fiction story where no matter what you do the corruption is inevitable.
vs the inspiring fantasy story of earnest heroes winning against pure evil despite the odds.
if you dont understand why one of these stories resonants with over 10-100x more people than the other you are maybe not human.
Enjoyed by the masses =/= good
It also doesn't mean it's bad, you underage contrarian.
lotr is the bible
dune is realpolitik
dune is just sci-fi vision of the muslim world which you can watch play out in real-time
That makes me feel a bit better. I've never really gotten the hype over Dune. It's a cool world and all, but it's all plans within plans within plans and it makes everything that happens feel really contrived. Like you're starting on episode three of a TV series and everyone says, "No, trust me, all this stuff was setup in the first episodes." But there were no first episodes so all the plot points just come out of nowhere.
The Lord of the Rings is about the evils of industralization and the destruction of the white race.
What would Tolkien think of this thread?
>a series of room temperature posters attempting to argue about books based on shit they saw in the movies of said books
considering he taught some of the smartest people in his country and helped to maintain the English language as well as creating several words for concepts we still use today, he'd fricking hate it
He'd be chuckling that a bunch of virgins on Cinemaphile are seething this much about him, 80 years later
This was a long time ago. I'm pretty sure if he was alive today he would be able to see the truth.
>his grandfather came from germany in the 1700s
>worships israelites
>thinks he's pure english
Typical
Dune has inspired more thought provoking works
I find it funny Tolkien said he liked Conan. What do you think he liked about it?
see
I already touched on this
Why is that funny? Conan is one of the best fantasy series of all time. Are you Valley Forge?
the themes of barbarism overcoming civilized man and overall visceral and sometimes lurid style of Conan simply doesn't seem like it would interest Tolkien who valued more lofty and chivalric principles
The way you describe Conan leads me to believe that you're not familiar with it at all and obviously you're very wrong about Tolkien's interest.
that is literally what Conan is about
Wrong.
What do you think it is about
Adventure, romance, mystery, freedom. Try reading it some time.
conan becomes a civilized king. though he longs for the simple life still, as all good kings do.
Conan being more civilized than the civilized people is a recurring theme in those stories
it's not that he's more civilized it's that he's more honorable, brave, cunning etc than wicked civilized men as a direct result of his barbarian ways
I forget which story it is, but one of my favourite moments is the store that opens up with Conan trying to hitch a ride on a ship, because he has to flee the city after killing a judge in his courtroom. The judge ordered him to do something traitorous, he refused, the judge ordered him arrested, and Conan judged the judge to be insane and slew him on the spot then fled.
Wow killing someone and running away super cool and honorable
the judge was gonna kill him
Tolkien said he sort of liked conan which from him is pretty high praise
I read the first Herbert novel like fifteen years ago and just found it incredibly uncool. All the stuff about prophecy and magic and their tech, all the stuff that as supposed to be cool, was just lame in my opinion. I don't get the dick-riding for this series over the decades. It's not that cool
>I don't get the dick-riding for this series over the decades.
>decades
Because your brain has been rotted to swiss cheese status by all the derivative works. Like Star Wars and other brands of goyslop. It's the same exact reason you have to have poojeet CG in your capeshit, and literally die from watching a silent or talkie era kino.
Yeah but how many Hugo Awards does Tolkien have?
Comparing J.R.R. Tolkien and Frank Herbert is like comparing apples and oranges. They are both incredibly influential authors in the realm of speculative fiction, but their styles and contributions are quite different.
Tolkien is best known for his epic high fantasy works, particularly "The Lord of the Rings" series. His world-building, mythology, and attention to detail have set a standard for fantasy literature that many authors aspire to.
On the other hand, Frank Herbert is known for his science fiction masterpiece, "Dune." Herbert's work is deeply philosophical, exploring themes of politics, religion, and ecology in a complex and richly imagined universe.
Both authors have legions of devoted fans, and their works have had a lasting impact on the genre. Ultimately, the question of who is the "better" author comes down to personal preference and the aspects of storytelling that resonate most with each individual reader.
How exactly does this site benefit from AI filling out threads? Does it keep 'engagement' up or something
>the result has not in any way measured up to storytelling of the highest quality
The Nobel prize jury on Tolkien's nomination for the Nobel Prize in Literature.
Lol.
Its cute that C.S. Lewis nominated him though
Obama has one of those, they're literally worthless
you should look up who has a Nobel laureate in literature, it's a mostly sad list full of some real head scratchers
it's also the most controversial prize, because they choose persons based on "a body of works" but then they never actually have a specific criteria and there are some people on that list who never wrote a single fricking book
sorry that should clarify before some moron jumps down my throat, Obama has a Nobe;l prize in peace (lmao)
Who the frick nominated Tolkien for the 1966 Hugo Awards Best All-time Series award?
probably Lewis, again, dude really looked up to Tolkien
anyways, Hugos used to be solely for Science Fiction, and the winner thought that Tolkien would have and should have won
I think Harry Potter was the first fantasy series to win a Hugo
I'm pretty sure it's Valley Forge.
This guy has obviously never read a Conan story in his life and is simply projecting the title of barbarian onto his analysis in a literal sense based on his own preconceptions. Why the frick do morons act like this?
Kind of surprising, since Dune reads pretty much exactly like Silmarillion.
Both books suck, by the way.
LoTR, however, is a master piece. Nothing like it will ever be made again, despite the whole host of genres it spawned.
>Nothing like it will ever be made again
GOOD
>uses the term "genre fiction"
Opinion disregarded, you're a pretentious moron.