the change happended in the 80s, up until then Superman was the most popular DC hero.
is not wrong. For most of the silver and bronze ages, Supes out performed bats quite a bit, with some exceptions in regards to the Adam West show, which while it did renew interest, it actually hurt the brand in the long run for a while since normies associated Batman as a silly kids brand. It wasn't until stuff like Killing Joke & Dark Knight Returns, as well as the films they inspired, shifted the tide to the Bat's favor.
Batman was partially created by a crook, and his earliest Golden Age comics were some of the worst coming out at that time. The first bit of quality to even happen to him was once Dick Sprang was doing the art, but even then it was still leagues below Superman. Then after DC killed Fawcett comics by suing over Captain Marvel's likeness to him, they pillaged Otto Binder and had him write Superman, creating a really robust Silver Age. It was only once Denny O'Neil was on board with Batman, in 1970, that Batman started to come into his more modern form. Throughout the 70s, Batman rose to prominence while Superman's wackier tales lost steam.
I like Dick sprang but he's a pretty crude illustrator compared to Wayne Boring and other illustrators the Superman books had.
Of course the caveat is that the crude, simplistic style Sprang had is more iconic overtime than the illustrators who worked on Superman, which now seem more like rudimentary illustrations than cartooning.
Team cared more about expanding their own DC universe than making good one off episodes like in Batman. 1/4 of the episodes are crossovers and that's not including the New Gods plots running through the whole series. Batman had near twice as many episodes spread across several years and Batman Beyond.
It was probably due the show being on a network, WB, that didn't have the same coverage Fox has. Not that many places carried WB over the air, and the places that didn't required cable to watch the network. Batman TAS aired on Fox, and that network had way more coverage.
To some extent this >Creative ways to nerf Superman
As a kid I actually liked the superman show more, though both were essential weekend viewing. Maybe because the villains were more outlandish (robot t rexes? Why not!).
The team working on it liked Batman more so they didn’t put as much passion into Superman
I recall the writers complained that Superman doesn’t have enough cool villains which automatically makes me disregard what else they have to say about the character.
Compared to Batman's villains it's kind of true. While normies can only list Lex, Brainiac and Zod because of the movies, it's not like Toyman, Metallo, the Parasite, Ultra-Humanite, Mxy, Hank Henshaw and Livewire (who they created for TAS!) are all that iconic to even comic book fans.
You could stretch to include Darkseid and Mongul but they're more general Justice League threats
A lot of Batman's villains are only cool and well known thanks to the adaptations though. The Batman Rogues gallery people remember is largely the product of the adaptations pushing them. Only Penguin, Joker, and Catwoman were prominent before Batman 66; the 66 show helped make Riddler, who had 3 appearances before, a "main" villain. 66 had Mr. Freeze and Mad Hatter, but neither really got thought of as iconic villains until BTAS.
Two-Face was a cult favorite character before BTAS with no adaptations again BTAS elevated him to someone all normies know.
If the showrunners couldn't make Superman villains more iconic, it's a failure on THEIR part.
A lot of the Batman’s “iconic” villains are because of adaptations outside of comics but even besides that point . You don’t need to make a “Superman fights a super villain” to be the plot of every episode
Most of the Superman stories are “something weird happens to Superman/Clark and the story is about how Superman gets out of it”
Lois marries a robot
Jimmy turns into a werewolf
Superman goes back in time
Superman gains a new super power
Superman has to pay his taxes
Sure it might be hard to stretch it out to 22 minutes since a lot of his stories were 8 pages but then have two separate stories intertwined and they work together at the end (Superman owes a million dollars and Jimmy turns into a werewolf or something)
Could have used Legion of Superheroes more often since they were a huge part of Superman’s mythos
The thing is that Batman's rogue gallery used to be a bit of a joke. Things like Batman TAS changed that. For example, Mr. Freeze was reinvented by the cartoon and his origin story and personality rewritten into something that was actually pretty damn compelling, so much so that it's stuck. Then there's Harley Quinn, who they flat out invented and is one of the most popular Batman characters out there today. Even in cases where they weren't the first to "fix" a villain, they still helped push that villain's new look and story to a larger audience. Prior to stuff like Batman TAS and the 1989 film, people remembered the Adam West Batman and considered him and his rogue's gallery to be just a silly joke. Batman TAS helped change perception.
With Superman TAS they kind of tried to do the same thing but it just didn't work. Like with Toyman, they tried to do a Batman TAS style episode with Fun and Games, but a kid whose dad is killed by a criminal who was using his dad's toy factory as a criminal front is just such a convoluted backstory and doesn't really hit with people. Which is a shame, because the design they had for Toyman and his portrayal is actually quite good. Frick, he feels like a Batman TAS villain. But it felt like they were pulling punches on that backstory. Maybe the original plan was his dad abused him or something, but censors wouldn't allow it. I dunno, but it just comes across as really neutered.
As a kid I always thought STAS Toyman's design looked kinda lame compared to even the Super Friends one(they're actually different characters and the Schott Toyman killed this one in the 70's). It's creepy but also not really cool.
I think it's a solid design, but as a kid it didn't look like it'd make a great action figure, you know? By design he looks like a toddler or girl's toy.Where as the BTAS villains all have some visual hook to let them appeal to boys as a toyline. Biggest outlier is Baby Doll who was more of a one-off in BTAS anyway.
The other rogues also suffer in their visual design being a bit generic as well.
Same with Livewire. The concept is interesting, backstory is good too, and the design and portrayal of the character is great, but the story just isn't that good.
Like the beginning is good, you have Leslie making pretty good anti-Superman arguments. Then she gets in that accident, and there's a good scene where a reporter blames Superman and he kind of loses it. And she gets her powers, and that's cool. But then she just starts messing shit up in the city. Why? What's the point? It just doesn't make sense. Like you have a good idea for a character, and the most you can do with her is turn her into a Power Ranger monster of the week?
There's a reason she eventually turned into a good girl in the comics before the reboot, she doesn't have any ambition so she's stuck at bank robbery and the like for her evil plots
>dislike Superman >rally crowd against Superman >get superpowers because of Superman >instead of making defeating him a personal vendetta, just become a criminal because... because
The thing is that Batman's rogue gallery used to be a bit of a joke. Things like Batman TAS changed that. For example, Mr. Freeze was reinvented by the cartoon and his origin story and personality rewritten into something that was actually pretty damn compelling, so much so that it's stuck. Then there's Harley Quinn, who they flat out invented and is one of the most popular Batman characters out there today. Even in cases where they weren't the first to "fix" a villain, they still helped push that villain's new look and story to a larger audience. Prior to stuff like Batman TAS and the 1989 film, people remembered the Adam West Batman and considered him and his rogue's gallery to be just a silly joke. Batman TAS helped change perception.
With Superman TAS they kind of tried to do the same thing but it just didn't work. Like with Toyman, they tried to do a Batman TAS style episode with Fun and Games, but a kid whose dad is killed by a criminal who was using his dad's toy factory as a criminal front is just such a convoluted backstory and doesn't really hit with people. Which is a shame, because the design they had for Toyman and his portrayal is actually quite good. Frick, he feels like a Batman TAS villain. But it felt like they were pulling punches on that backstory. Maybe the original plan was his dad abused him or something, but censors wouldn't allow it. I dunno, but it just comes across as really neutered.
Kind of the same thing with the movies. Batman has more movies and seems a little more popular
I liked Bronze Age era Toyman where is was reformed but always ended up going back to crime. It was an interesting take, like he wanted to be good but was just too crazy
I guess looking like Ben Franklin wouldn’t be super cool with kids though
Batman TAS is remembered for having writing that elevated it above being "just a kids show." Superman TAS, while not a bad show, doesn't really have that. The writing was not nearly as mature. It does have some fun episodes, but it just never reaches Batman TAS level.
I disagree, I'd say BTAS is more cinematic and has a better presentation but the writing isn't really all that mature overall. Even in that Mr. Freeze episode you post, the day is saved by alfred's chicken soup. BTAS in general has a lot of scriptslike that that feel like old 80's cartoons but have higher production values.
Something like The Late Mr. Kent or Dan Turpin's death is far more mature than anything tackled in BTAS
Lois and Clark's banter in STAS feels like two adults playing off each other. That's something BTAS doesn't really have. Unfortunately it just LOOKS cheaper, and not just the art style, it doesn't look as much of a movie as BTAS managed to do on it's budget
>Lois and Clark's banter in STAS feels like two adults playing off each other.
No it doesn't. If you wanted good Lois and Clark interactions you watched Lois & Clark not the cartoon.
BTAS ruined Mr. Freeze with the whole "save Nora" schtick. There's only so many ways that tale can be retold before it starts getting completely ridiculous, so then they have to find secondary motives for him to stay a villain without (or sometimes after) curing her, like him wanting to destroy what makes everybody happy because they can still feel emotions and he can't.
It's fine if it's done right, and one of the ways to do it is to have him be a villain for a long length of time and have his finale be curing/saving Nora in some way, either through self-sacrifice or through saving enough laundered money to fund her cure as he ends with a bang and dies.
Also works fine if his efforts are in vain and he outright can't save Nora, causing him to be a tragic villain as he constantly tries to make people suffer the way he has, or freezing people to make them feel her pain.
Hell, even that Harley Quinn cartoon that looks like shit still had a solid end with him as far as I'm aware.
I know it's a bit repetitive sometimes, but tragic villains who are actually tragic enough for the reader/viewer to sympathize with without feeling forced is incredibly rare, most tragic villains these days are zero-effort virtue signalling stuff like "people bullied me because I was different/gay/female" or some 1:1 clone of something that happened to a writer in their childhood so they make an idealized version of the event and get mad when people think the character is a whiner or something.
Even Baby Doll fits the bill for being a solid tragic villain, I felt for her when she was staring at those mirrors and she completely broke down, even though her methods were silly and odd. Too bad she's a bit hard for most writers to use due to looking and acting like a child, they'd probably have to hamfist reminders that she's not a kid into the writing constantly, which could get annoying.
Calling him a less interesting Captain Cold is generous, OG Freeze was a joke. He was Egghead and King Tut tier thanks to his appearances in the '66 show. There's a reason he shows up in Limbo in Morrison's Animal Man run. Dini just made him into the Cryonic Man but with a sick Mike Mignola redesign.
Justice League's series is more than anything the Batman and Luthor show. Batman reigns everyone in. Everyone is intimidated by Batman and he can get in Superman's face and say "Cry me a river" while pretending to be cool when he's just an butthole. And how did this trash heap end? Superman gave a speech about being able to use his full power against Darkseid and he still LOSES needing Lex Luthor to show up and win against Darkseid by giving him what he wanted (the anti life equation). So it's a happy ending for the villains while the heroes were losers especially Superman who owes the safety of the Earth and reality to his main enemies. Horrible show.
STAS is great when they focus on Luthor/Brainiac/Darkseid, rest of the villians suck.
JL is garbage overall, unlike JLU which is elder god tier and the best DCAU series.
Superman TAS arguably the better show >Consistent quality >Set the tone for the entire DCAU >Better supporting cast
Batman TAS is more fondly remembered because it has higher highs in terms of episodic feats. But what people often forget is that for every Heart of Ice you got like 5 forgettable episodes
This. I'll rewatch all of STAS anytime, if it's BTAS I'll just watch the twenty or so good episodes and skip the rest. Those twenty episodes are better than anything in STAS but the only episode in STAS as bad as the majority of BTAS episodes is the Jimmy Olson one.
It doesn't really have as many stand out episodes. The one where it;'s mostly him being a reported and you see the villain get killed at the end was great. Livewire is also really fricking good.
This is compared to the Batman show which had hit after hit of iconic episodes, even the lesser known villians used once had iconic episodes. Almost every episode is iconic in some way.
on an extra note,, does anyone even remember the joker’s first 3 schemes?
Oh yeah Joker's Favor was before Laughing Fish. Point is, his episodes were memorable. No one gives a shit about Bruce losing his memory in a mine work camp, or Sewer King's episode
Funny because I liked Superman better. Batman TAS was shit on rewatch. It’s only remembered because it aired on FOX and was one of the first of its kind.
BTNA was absolute garbage. And I bet no one on here even knew that show existed.
>And I bet no one on here even knew that show existed.
Why do you namegay? It outs you every time you say something stupid. Of fricking course we know about season 4 of Batman TAS.
Why the frick should I care if you know who am I?
Most people don’t know that shit exists. In real life too. I bet you a gazillion dollars they heard it somewhere here or online.
>Most people don’t know that shit exists
We know on here, dumbass. >Why the frick should I care if you know who am I?
You should be embarrassed because it not only outs you as a newbie, but makes you a annoying narcissist no one gives a frick about. But hey if you get off on the attention and people insulting you, then you got way bigger issues
>Who the frick is "we"
You seriously think this board didn't know about Season 4 of one of the most popular Batman cartoons ever made? You're either stupid or underage, pick
5 months ago
LopiBats
Yep. Lots of people didn’t know about it. Real life people who also grew up on BTAS instead of dedicated Cinemaphile shitposters.
Get the frick off the internet you chronically online circlejerk frick.
5 months ago
Anonymous
>Get the frick off the internet you chronically online circlejerk frick.
Pot, meet kettle
>Most people don’t know that shit exists. In real life too.
that second part is true, but the rest sounds like you are trying on purpose to be moronic, most people into capeshit cartoons know about TNA
It also had more clayface and scarecrow kino, the joker's millions episode, Mad Love, Double Talk, Legends of the Dark Knight and that one creeper episode
BTAS was hard carried by being on Fox in peak relevance as the "bad boy" of network TV, in between two huge blockbuster Batman movies. The fact that Fox straight up had primetime events broadcasting BTAS (And X-men) says a lot of their caliber to the network. There's a reason Fox made the X-men movies, they saw potential in it even if it was a cartoon.
WB was a much smaller network with less stations, and the exec board was a bunch of schizos. STAS having older main characters made them frustrated because they thought the key to success was making everyone teenagers. It's why Batman Beyond happened.
as far as i know batman cucked superman and robin, that was pretty based, cuck your fellow crimefighter, cuck your son, and vaporize your student's hymen
>watch Batman TAS with friend >watch The New Batman Adventures with friend >watch Batman Beyond with friend >he enjoys all three >ask if he wants to watch Superman TAS next, since I wanted an excuse to binge watch it >"No thanks."
Why do normies hate Superman? Also, I still need to watch it.
People nowadays are more comfortable with misery than hope. Can't blame them as they're not much to look forward to, but it's unfortunate that it's the cultural era we're in right now.
Because Superman was a subversion of the pulp action heroes that inspired Batman, and most writers don't understand this and just try to write him the same way they'd write Batman.
No, he means Doc Savage, Zorro, The Phantom and The Shadow...Those were the primary inspirations for Batman. Superman was more inspired by biblical myth and the strongmen archetypes of the era (who also worse capes and undies outside their costumes). Though The Phantom inspired the design of both Superman and Batman.
The first 2 Metallo epsisodes are really good and it show that despite an initially boring character they could make thins more interesting compared to the comic book version
Its been ages since I saw it but isn't Superman just a less psychologically complex series? The villains can't stand on their own as interesting people, powered custom-wearers, yes. People no.
Not him, but that's exactly why Batman works so well today. Mental illnesses are intriguing to people, and associating many of Batman's villains to specific ones makes it both incredibly accessible to the lowest common denominator, while also making it (seemingly) complex.
Notice he didn't say "this is why superman has psychological depth". Because he couldn't think of any. So he had to insult it's opposition, and all he could do is >(fact about the show).
I think you just proved my point about the lowest common denominator. But for the record, Lex Luthor's motivations alone have more "psychological depth" than any character in Batman.
>Silver Age Luthor >hates Superman because Superboy accidentally made him bald >post-Crisis Luthor >hates Superman because he's a bald manlet with a god complex who seethes over having an actual god flying around above his hair free head
I'm not pretending having a guy whose motivation is either a mixture of collecting hats or molesting little blonde girls is psychologically deep either, just pull your head out of your ass man.
Superman because he's a bald manlet with a god complex who seethes over having an actual god flying around above his hair free head
That's Luthor when written by a hack. Luthor hates Superman because he doesn't want humanity to rely on one being and end up stagnating on their own progress. He see's Superman as a weight on humanity's ankle and, mistakenly, believes humanity should be prepared for the day Superman changes his mind.
5 months ago
Anonymous
Yes, so that he can be the one being that they can rely on. He must be that chain on humanity's ankle. His ego will accept nothing less.
5 months ago
Anonymous
Ultimately he wants to be told he was right and to appease his hubris he wants to be placed at the helm of humanity for it. But at his core he genuinely believes Superman's actions will cause humans to stagnate when in reality his actions are motivating people.
>Silver Age Luthor >hates Superman because Superboy accidentally made him bald >post-Crisis Luthor >hates Superman because he's a bald manlet with a god complex who seethes over having an actual god flying around above his hair free head
I'm not pretending having a guy whose motivation is either a mixture of collecting hats or molesting little blonde girls is psychologically deep either, just pull your head out of your ass man.
I think a good test for psychological depth is what it means to empathize with the character or whether it's even possible (and it doesn't have to be the villain). I've never heard of anyone taking a superman character, including the good guys, and say they can relate to them on some level. You see that with batman characters on both the good and bad guy side.
With media brainrot, trannies and women all running rampant, I'm not surprised to hear Batman characters considered relatable.
5 months ago
Anonymous
Isn't one of the most iconic batman comics about how anyone can become like the joker? That's about relatability. It sounds like you just hate comics and cartoons. Why else would you view relating to the characters as something abhorrent? That's some serious brainrot. Sounds like you had a ton of bad days and have become a clown.
5 months ago
Anonymous
Look, I’m not gonna bow down just because you’re trying to appeal to my clownification fetish. But I also never said a single thing about relatability being bad. Just that Batman characters are about the furthest thing from it, unless you’re mentally ill (though more than half the world’s population is at this point). But I personally find a country bumpkin from Kansas more relatable than a billionaire orphan.
5 months ago
Anonymous
>unless you’re mentally ill (though more than half the world’s population is at this point)
You hit the nail on the head.
>But I personally find a country bumpkin from Kansas more relatable than a billionaire orphan.
That's just foreign to me. Probably because I am ill.
You have trouble thinking in ways that are not binary. You are saying ALL of DC has zero psychological depth. Depth isn't a binary, it's degrees. Not being able to think in degrees is a huge tell of low iq.
>didn't run for nearly as long >too many long plotlines and too many callbacks instead of episodic content, meaning reruns were hard to do >intro was a cheap clip show of various scenes from the show instead of Batman TAS's timeless one >Batman and his villains were way more popular than Superman and his >Batman's villains were mostly all redesigned for the better, so great that most kept their changes for decades, reused in other media, even literally creating Harley Quinn, who now probably makes more money than all other DC villains combined, including Joker himself >Superman's villains are... mostly just Lex and eventually Darkseid, plus a weirdly high amount of rando gangsters >had to watch the entire thing just to get a sense of appreciation for the various plots, as opposed to Batman TAS letting you just watch whatever you want in mostly whatever order you want (minus the New Batman Adventures switch)
I mean, I love both shows, but Batman TAS is my go-to that I rewatch every six months or so, whereas I rewatch Superman TAS every other year at the most.
Plus I've always hated how that scientist dude I've memoryholed was Superman's best friend for a whole season, then becomes a fairly one-dimensional villain because "evil superman evil", turning on a dime and becoming a far less interesting character other than that time he made(?) not-Power Girl and promptly got shitslapped for it.
>then becomes a fairly one-dimensional villain because "evil superman evil", turning on a dime and becoming a far less interesting character other than that time he made(?) not-Power Girl and promptly got shitslapped for it.
That didn't happen until JLU
Batman is a more popular character and had just come off the back of the Tim Burton film. Atmospherically and thematically, it just resonates more with the average male viewer.
I personally prefer Superman, both as a charac ter and as an animated series, but he doesn't have the same mass appeal and is decidedly more "old-fashioned" and "dorky"
Lame villains.
Batman's villains were darker and thus cooler (especially in the edgy 90s, when stuff like Skeleton Warriors was just a cartoon for kids)
Fangirl filter. moronic men like Bruce are more appealing; healthy, well-adjusted and humble men intimidate them. It was strictly a boys' cartoon, one of the last of its kind.
It doesn't really have as many stand out episodes. The one where it;'s mostly him being a reported and you see the villain get killed at the end was great. Livewire is also really fricking good.
This is compared to the Batman show which had hit after hit of iconic episodes, even the lesser known villians used once had iconic episodes. Almost every episode is iconic in some way.
They produced way more episodes for Batman and aired it all 5 days a week, whereas Superman aired one episode a week, and had probably less than half as many episodes produced. Superman was also cancelled- Legacy was meant to be a season finale and the next was Superman’s redemption arc where he would gather up the Justice League.
In hindsight, I think they were running out of ideas, and the fact that Bruce Timm was always intending to go forward with the Justice League says a lot in how long he wished to utilize Clark as a solo starring character in his own series.
It is Superman, the most normalgay cape hero. He is so normalgay tier they needed to try and brood him up in the Snyderverse. Hell, my father was a Supeman fan, and even collected Detective Comic back when he was a kid. To bad they were all damaged in a flooding. I thought MoS was entertaining enough, but was a horrible portrayal for a main cinematic Superman archetype.
Because Batman has to be smart and has a real challenge with his enemies. Superman could just superspeed at everyone and end the episode right off if he wanted. There is rarely a challenge for him.
DC has repeatedly had stinkers for videogames too. For every NES Batman|ROTJ there was Batman Dork Tomorrow or Sin Tsu. For every Superman Returns and Shadow of Apokolips there was MK vs DC, Justice League Heroes or some other jank. I'm leaving Superman 64 alone since that wasn't Titus's fault it was on DC|WB. The last good hits DC has had recently was TTGO and Shazam.
Batman has always been more popular. Simple as.
Batman lost to Superman and Scrouge McDuck back when comics were still relevant
and these days, right when comics aren’t as relevant as used to, it’s spiderman or bust
the change happended in the 80s, up until then Superman was the most popular DC hero.
Zoomers are always outing themselves.
is not wrong. For most of the silver and bronze ages, Supes out performed bats quite a bit, with some exceptions in regards to the Adam West show, which while it did renew interest, it actually hurt the brand in the long run for a while since normies associated Batman as a silly kids brand. It wasn't until stuff like Killing Joke & Dark Knight Returns, as well as the films they inspired, shifted the tide to the Bat's favor.
Batman was partially created by a crook, and his earliest Golden Age comics were some of the worst coming out at that time. The first bit of quality to even happen to him was once Dick Sprang was doing the art, but even then it was still leagues below Superman. Then after DC killed Fawcett comics by suing over Captain Marvel's likeness to him, they pillaged Otto Binder and had him write Superman, creating a really robust Silver Age. It was only once Denny O'Neil was on board with Batman, in 1970, that Batman started to come into his more modern form. Throughout the 70s, Batman rose to prominence while Superman's wackier tales lost steam.
Golden Age Batman is far superior from a cartooning perspective to Golden Age Superman
how so
I like Dick sprang but he's a pretty crude illustrator compared to Wayne Boring and other illustrators the Superman books had.
Of course the caveat is that the crude, simplistic style Sprang had is more iconic overtime than the illustrators who worked on Superman, which now seem more like rudimentary illustrations than cartooning.
>always been
>Simple as.
Simple as what, yo?
btas never had finalized Fleischer cartoons to compare to, though the brothers were trying to make it happen back int he 40s
Superman TAS is shit. End of discussion.
Team cared more about expanding their own DC universe than making good one off episodes like in Batman. 1/4 of the episodes are crossovers and that's not including the New Gods plots running through the whole series. Batman had near twice as many episodes spread across several years and Batman Beyond.
Batman TAS had
>Came out first
>Had more iconic characters than Superman’s rouges gallery
>Had better stories
Superman TAS had
>Creative ways to nerf Superman
It was probably due the show being on a network, WB, that didn't have the same coverage Fox has. Not that many places carried WB over the air, and the places that didn't required cable to watch the network. Batman TAS aired on Fox, and that network had way more coverage.
To some extent this
>Creative ways to nerf Superman
As a kid I actually liked the superman show more, though both were essential weekend viewing. Maybe because the villains were more outlandish (robot t rexes? Why not!).
Batman is more popular than Superman.
Uh Idunno
The STAS theme is pretty cool
Because Superman TAS isn't as good as Batman TAS.
Why did the chicken cross the road?
It had the better theme for sure, and I like Clark/Kal-El more than Bruce
Superman a better written show.
Why dough?
The team working on it liked Batman more so they didn’t put as much passion into Superman
I recall the writers complained that Superman doesn’t have enough cool villains which automatically makes me disregard what else they have to say about the character.
Compared to Batman's villains it's kind of true. While normies can only list Lex, Brainiac and Zod because of the movies, it's not like Toyman, Metallo, the Parasite, Ultra-Humanite, Mxy, Hank Henshaw and Livewire (who they created for TAS!) are all that iconic to even comic book fans.
You could stretch to include Darkseid and Mongul but they're more general Justice League threats
A lot of Batman's villains are only cool and well known thanks to the adaptations though. The Batman Rogues gallery people remember is largely the product of the adaptations pushing them. Only Penguin, Joker, and Catwoman were prominent before Batman 66; the 66 show helped make Riddler, who had 3 appearances before, a "main" villain. 66 had Mr. Freeze and Mad Hatter, but neither really got thought of as iconic villains until BTAS.
Two-Face was a cult favorite character before BTAS with no adaptations again BTAS elevated him to someone all normies know.
If the showrunners couldn't make Superman villains more iconic, it's a failure on THEIR part.
A lot of the Batman’s “iconic” villains are because of adaptations outside of comics but even besides that point . You don’t need to make a “Superman fights a super villain” to be the plot of every episode
Most of the Superman stories are “something weird happens to Superman/Clark and the story is about how Superman gets out of it”
Lois marries a robot
Jimmy turns into a werewolf
Superman goes back in time
Superman gains a new super power
Superman has to pay his taxes
Sure it might be hard to stretch it out to 22 minutes since a lot of his stories were 8 pages but then have two separate stories intertwined and they work together at the end (Superman owes a million dollars and Jimmy turns into a werewolf or something)
Could have used Legion of Superheroes more often since they were a huge part of Superman’s mythos
>Superman owes a million dollars and Jimmy turns into a werewolf or something
jesus, this sounds fricking awful.
Senpai BTAS is part of the reason why Batman’s villains are so iconic to begin with
Mr Feeze used to be a joke. Clayman, Two Face, Poison Ivy. These were existing characters that became more popular thanks to the show.
The thing is that Batman's rogue gallery used to be a bit of a joke. Things like Batman TAS changed that. For example, Mr. Freeze was reinvented by the cartoon and his origin story and personality rewritten into something that was actually pretty damn compelling, so much so that it's stuck. Then there's Harley Quinn, who they flat out invented and is one of the most popular Batman characters out there today. Even in cases where they weren't the first to "fix" a villain, they still helped push that villain's new look and story to a larger audience. Prior to stuff like Batman TAS and the 1989 film, people remembered the Adam West Batman and considered him and his rogue's gallery to be just a silly joke. Batman TAS helped change perception.
With Superman TAS they kind of tried to do the same thing but it just didn't work. Like with Toyman, they tried to do a Batman TAS style episode with Fun and Games, but a kid whose dad is killed by a criminal who was using his dad's toy factory as a criminal front is just such a convoluted backstory and doesn't really hit with people. Which is a shame, because the design they had for Toyman and his portrayal is actually quite good. Frick, he feels like a Batman TAS villain. But it felt like they were pulling punches on that backstory. Maybe the original plan was his dad abused him or something, but censors wouldn't allow it. I dunno, but it just comes across as really neutered.
As a kid I always thought STAS Toyman's design looked kinda lame compared to even the Super Friends one(they're actually different characters and the Schott Toyman killed this one in the 70's). It's creepy but also not really cool.
Really? I like it because it's creepy and actually menacing. To each his own though.
I think it's a solid design, but as a kid it didn't look like it'd make a great action figure, you know? By design he looks like a toddler or girl's toy.Where as the BTAS villains all have some visual hook to let them appeal to boys as a toyline. Biggest outlier is Baby Doll who was more of a one-off in BTAS anyway.
The other rogues also suffer in their visual design being a bit generic as well.
Same with Livewire. The concept is interesting, backstory is good too, and the design and portrayal of the character is great, but the story just isn't that good.
Like the beginning is good, you have Leslie making pretty good anti-Superman arguments. Then she gets in that accident, and there's a good scene where a reporter blames Superman and he kind of loses it. And she gets her powers, and that's cool. But then she just starts messing shit up in the city. Why? What's the point? It just doesn't make sense. Like you have a good idea for a character, and the most you can do with her is turn her into a Power Ranger monster of the week?
Yeah
There's a reason she eventually turned into a good girl in the comics before the reboot, she doesn't have any ambition so she's stuck at bank robbery and the like for her evil plots
I remember finding this weird.
>dislike Superman
>rally crowd against Superman
>get superpowers because of Superman
>instead of making defeating him a personal vendetta, just become a criminal because... because
Kind of the same thing with the movies. Batman has more movies and seems a little more popular
I liked Bronze Age era Toyman where is was reformed but always ended up going back to crime. It was an interesting take, like he wanted to be good but was just too crazy
I guess looking like Ben Franklin wouldn’t be super cool with kids though
This right here.
The creators didn’t put in the passion they had for Batman Villains in B:TAS into the S:TAS.
Batman TAS is remembered for having writing that elevated it above being "just a kids show." Superman TAS, while not a bad show, doesn't really have that. The writing was not nearly as mature. It does have some fun episodes, but it just never reaches Batman TAS level.
I disagree, I'd say BTAS is more cinematic and has a better presentation but the writing isn't really all that mature overall. Even in that Mr. Freeze episode you post, the day is saved by alfred's chicken soup. BTAS in general has a lot of scriptslike that that feel like old 80's cartoons but have higher production values.
Something like The Late Mr. Kent or Dan Turpin's death is far more mature than anything tackled in BTAS
Lois and Clark's banter in STAS feels like two adults playing off each other. That's something BTAS doesn't really have. Unfortunately it just LOOKS cheaper, and not just the art style, it doesn't look as much of a movie as BTAS managed to do on it's budget
>Lois and Clark's banter in STAS feels like two adults playing off each other.
No it doesn't. If you wanted good Lois and Clark interactions you watched Lois & Clark not the cartoon.
BTAS ruined Mr. Freeze with the whole "save Nora" schtick. There's only so many ways that tale can be retold before it starts getting completely ridiculous, so then they have to find secondary motives for him to stay a villain without (or sometimes after) curing her, like him wanting to destroy what makes everybody happy because they can still feel emotions and he can't.
It took a dead end nobody and gave him one good story, that also left him a dead end nobody. That's still a net positive, just not one with legs.
Enough for one movie really.
It was a pretty good movie. Then they fricked it up by bringing him back AGAIN. Batman Beyond at least had the decency to kill him off for good.
It's fine if it's done right, and one of the ways to do it is to have him be a villain for a long length of time and have his finale be curing/saving Nora in some way, either through self-sacrifice or through saving enough laundered money to fund her cure as he ends with a bang and dies.
Also works fine if his efforts are in vain and he outright can't save Nora, causing him to be a tragic villain as he constantly tries to make people suffer the way he has, or freezing people to make them feel her pain.
Hell, even that Harley Quinn cartoon that looks like shit still had a solid end with him as far as I'm aware.
I know it's a bit repetitive sometimes, but tragic villains who are actually tragic enough for the reader/viewer to sympathize with without feeling forced is incredibly rare, most tragic villains these days are zero-effort virtue signalling stuff like "people bullied me because I was different/gay/female" or some 1:1 clone of something that happened to a writer in their childhood so they make an idealized version of the event and get mad when people think the character is a whiner or something.
Even Baby Doll fits the bill for being a solid tragic villain, I felt for her when she was staring at those mirrors and she completely broke down, even though her methods were silly and odd. Too bad she's a bit hard for most writers to use due to looking and acting like a child, they'd probably have to hamfist reminders that she's not a kid into the writing constantly, which could get annoying.
>Mr. Freeze was better when he was a less interesting Captain Cold.
Well, you're wrong.
Calling him a less interesting Captain Cold is generous, OG Freeze was a joke. He was Egghead and King Tut tier thanks to his appearances in the '66 show. There's a reason he shows up in Limbo in Morrison's Animal Man run. Dini just made him into the Cryonic Man but with a sick Mike Mignola redesign.
Batman TAS = best Bats cartoon
Superman TAS = mediocre toy commercial
JL/JLU = best Supes cartoon
Unironically this.
I just cared about Supes because the JL/JLU cartoons, but, his own show were meh.
I think it didn't help that Superman was too serious in his own show.
>JL/JLU = best Supes cartoon
Incorrect.
Justice League's series is more than anything the Batman and Luthor show. Batman reigns everyone in. Everyone is intimidated by Batman and he can get in Superman's face and say "Cry me a river" while pretending to be cool when he's just an butthole. And how did this trash heap end? Superman gave a speech about being able to use his full power against Darkseid and he still LOSES needing Lex Luthor to show up and win against Darkseid by giving him what he wanted (the anti life equation). So it's a happy ending for the villains while the heroes were losers especially Superman who owes the safety of the Earth and reality to his main enemies. Horrible show.
STAS is great when they focus on Luthor/Brainiac/Darkseid, rest of the villians suck.
JL is garbage overall, unlike JLU which is elder god tier and the best DCAU series.
AIEEEE AIEEEE NOOOO NOT THE HECKIN' ELECTRICITY SAVE ME BRUCE AIEEEEEEE
Because it's shit.
The writers went out if their way to halfass it because they’re Batgays.
Superman TAS arguably the better show
>Consistent quality
>Set the tone for the entire DCAU
>Better supporting cast
Batman TAS is more fondly remembered because it has higher highs in terms of episodic feats. But what people often forget is that for every Heart of Ice you got like 5 forgettable episodes
This. I'll rewatch all of STAS anytime, if it's BTAS I'll just watch the twenty or so good episodes and skip the rest. Those twenty episodes are better than anything in STAS but the only episode in STAS as bad as the majority of BTAS episodes is the Jimmy Olson one.
additionally i feel like some people misremembered TNBA as being BTAS season 4, but then again WB episode guides say the same thing
b”ye, some of the “better” BTAS episodes come from the kids’ WB TNBA run, so them being lump red together might play a part
>misremembered TNBA as being BTAS season 4
It IS season 4 of BTAS. A direct continuation
on an extra note,, does anyone even remember the joker’s first 3 schemes?
First episode was his Christmas Special
Then it was the toxic trash boat with Captain Clown
Then it was the smiling fish scam
right, right, wrong
his third scheme was blowing up gotham’s wealthy elite with a dynamite-laden cake while also inadvertently kidnapping a kid
any way you slice it, i think most agree things rly stared picking up joker-wise once paul dini got his college mate onboard
Oh yeah Joker's Favor was before Laughing Fish. Point is, his episodes were memorable. No one gives a shit about Bruce losing his memory in a mine work camp, or Sewer King's episode
All of the Joker's schemes sucked in that show. The Dark Knight is still the only Batman story to make the Joker interesting.
Funny because I liked Superman better. Batman TAS was shit on rewatch. It’s only remembered because it aired on FOX and was one of the first of its kind.
BTNA was absolute garbage. And I bet no one on here even knew that show existed.
>And I bet no one on here even knew that show existed.
Why do you namegay? It outs you every time you say something stupid. Of fricking course we know about season 4 of Batman TAS.
Why the frick should I care if you know who am I?
Most people don’t know that shit exists. In real life too. I bet you a gazillion dollars they heard it somewhere here or online.
>Most people don’t know that shit exists
We know on here, dumbass.
>Why the frick should I care if you know who am I?
You should be embarrassed because it not only outs you as a newbie, but makes you a annoying narcissist no one gives a frick about. But hey if you get off on the attention and people insulting you, then you got way bigger issues
Who the frick is “we,” you mean you and your moronic ass response?
You’re mad at my existence and it’s hilarious as frick.
>Who the frick is "we"
You seriously think this board didn't know about Season 4 of one of the most popular Batman cartoons ever made? You're either stupid or underage, pick
Yep. Lots of people didn’t know about it. Real life people who also grew up on BTAS instead of dedicated Cinemaphile shitposters.
Get the frick off the internet you chronically online circlejerk frick.
>Get the frick off the internet you chronically online circlejerk frick.
Pot, meet kettle
>Most people don’t know that shit exists. In real life too.
that second part is true, but the rest sounds like you are trying on purpose to be moronic, most people into capeshit cartoons know about TNA
It also had more clayface and scarecrow kino, the joker's millions episode, Mad Love, Double Talk, Legends of the Dark Knight and that one creeper episode
BTAS was hard carried by being on Fox in peak relevance as the "bad boy" of network TV, in between two huge blockbuster Batman movies. The fact that Fox straight up had primetime events broadcasting BTAS (And X-men) says a lot of their caliber to the network. There's a reason Fox made the X-men movies, they saw potential in it even if it was a cartoon.
WB was a much smaller network with less stations, and the exec board was a bunch of schizos. STAS having older main characters made them frustrated because they thought the key to success was making everyone teenagers. It's why Batman Beyond happened.
DC was never good. It’s all nostalgia.
140970195
Doesn’t need to argue with a child whose gonna be in a body cast if xhe doesn’t get the message.
Are you alright?
It's a Superman is knocked out of commission by an electrified net episode
as far as i know batman cucked superman and robin, that was pretty based, cuck your fellow crimefighter, cuck your son, and vaporize your student's hymen
>watch Batman TAS with friend
>watch The New Batman Adventures with friend
>watch Batman Beyond with friend
>he enjoys all three
>ask if he wants to watch Superman TAS next, since I wanted an excuse to binge watch it
>"No thanks."
Why do normies hate Superman? Also, I still need to watch it.
Blame Death Battle and Zack Snyder
Spider-Man is just a better version of him honestly.
What? The appeal of Spider-Man is totally different.
They were told Superman is boring because he is too strong.
People nowadays are more comfortable with misery than hope. Can't blame them as they're not much to look forward to, but it's unfortunate that it's the cultural era we're in right now.
Because Superman was a subversion of the pulp action heroes that inspired Batman, and most writers don't understand this and just try to write him the same way they'd write Batman.
>Superman was a subversion of the pulp action heroes that inspired Batman
You mean Superman?
No, he means Doc Savage, Zorro, The Phantom and The Shadow...Those were the primary inspirations for Batman. Superman was more inspired by biblical myth and the strongmen archetypes of the era (who also worse capes and undies outside their costumes). Though The Phantom inspired the design of both Superman and Batman.
but supes is inspired by john carter and the princess of mars.
It did have the greatest moment in the entire dcau
Even if they cut away from it, I'm surprised they managed to get away with executing this guy on a kid's show.
Kids WB censors were really relaxed at the time.
STAS and TNBA got away with some shit that never would have happened on any other network.
“MORE CHILD ENDANGERMENT!”
-James, watchtower database
>HE'S AQUAMAN!
>CLUNK
>TWO GIANT BUTTS APPEAR FROM THE WALL AND BEGIN FARTING
The first 2 Metallo epsisodes are really good and it show that despite an initially boring character they could make thins more interesting compared to the comic book version
Its been ages since I saw it but isn't Superman just a less psychologically complex series? The villains can't stand on their own as interesting people, powered custom-wearers, yes. People no.
>Mental illness is complex now
Lol
Not him, but that's exactly why Batman works so well today. Mental illnesses are intriguing to people, and associating many of Batman's villains to specific ones makes it both incredibly accessible to the lowest common denominator, while also making it (seemingly) complex.
Notice he didn't say "this is why superman has psychological depth". Because he couldn't think of any. So he had to insult it's opposition, and all he could do is >(fact about the show).
Who tf are you talking about?
I think you just proved my point about the lowest common denominator. But for the record, Lex Luthor's motivations alone have more "psychological depth" than any character in Batman.
>Silver Age Luthor
>hates Superman because Superboy accidentally made him bald
>post-Crisis Luthor
>hates Superman because he's a bald manlet with a god complex who seethes over having an actual god flying around above his hair free head
I'm not pretending having a guy whose motivation is either a mixture of collecting hats or molesting little blonde girls is psychologically deep either, just pull your head out of your ass man.
But I never claimed psychological depth, just said more than Batman. Get your ears out of your ass.
Superman because he's a bald manlet with a god complex who seethes over having an actual god flying around above his hair free head
That's Luthor when written by a hack. Luthor hates Superman because he doesn't want humanity to rely on one being and end up stagnating on their own progress. He see's Superman as a weight on humanity's ankle and, mistakenly, believes humanity should be prepared for the day Superman changes his mind.
Yes, so that he can be the one being that they can rely on. He must be that chain on humanity's ankle. His ego will accept nothing less.
Ultimately he wants to be told he was right and to appease his hubris he wants to be placed at the helm of humanity for it. But at his core he genuinely believes Superman's actions will cause humans to stagnate when in reality his actions are motivating people.
I think a good test for psychological depth is what it means to empathize with the character or whether it's even possible (and it doesn't have to be the villain). I've never heard of anyone taking a superman character, including the good guys, and say they can relate to them on some level. You see that with batman characters on both the good and bad guy side.
With media brainrot, trannies and women all running rampant, I'm not surprised to hear Batman characters considered relatable.
Isn't one of the most iconic batman comics about how anyone can become like the joker? That's about relatability. It sounds like you just hate comics and cartoons. Why else would you view relating to the characters as something abhorrent? That's some serious brainrot. Sounds like you had a ton of bad days and have become a clown.
Look, I’m not gonna bow down just because you’re trying to appeal to my clownification fetish. But I also never said a single thing about relatability being bad. Just that Batman characters are about the furthest thing from it, unless you’re mentally ill (though more than half the world’s population is at this point). But I personally find a country bumpkin from Kansas more relatable than a billionaire orphan.
>unless you’re mentally ill (though more than half the world’s population is at this point)
You hit the nail on the head.
>But I personally find a country bumpkin from Kansas more relatable than a billionaire orphan.
That's just foreign to me. Probably because I am ill.
>relatability
Are you okay?
There is no psychological depth in DC. It’s just shock value.
You have trouble thinking in ways that are not binary. You are saying ALL of DC has zero psychological depth. Depth isn't a binary, it's degrees. Not being able to think in degrees is a huge tell of low iq.
Let's be honest here, the true answer is because Batman's cast of villains is the best one anyone could ask for.
No one matters but the joker.
>the true answer is because Batman's cast of villains is the best one anyone could ask for
Or because they've been tweaked over time and other non-Batman characters have not been given that treatment?
>didn't run for nearly as long
>too many long plotlines and too many callbacks instead of episodic content, meaning reruns were hard to do
>intro was a cheap clip show of various scenes from the show instead of Batman TAS's timeless one
>Batman and his villains were way more popular than Superman and his
>Batman's villains were mostly all redesigned for the better, so great that most kept their changes for decades, reused in other media, even literally creating Harley Quinn, who now probably makes more money than all other DC villains combined, including Joker himself
>Superman's villains are... mostly just Lex and eventually Darkseid, plus a weirdly high amount of rando gangsters
>had to watch the entire thing just to get a sense of appreciation for the various plots, as opposed to Batman TAS letting you just watch whatever you want in mostly whatever order you want (minus the New Batman Adventures switch)
I mean, I love both shows, but Batman TAS is my go-to that I rewatch every six months or so, whereas I rewatch Superman TAS every other year at the most.
Plus I've always hated how that scientist dude I've memoryholed was Superman's best friend for a whole season, then becomes a fairly one-dimensional villain because "evil superman evil", turning on a dime and becoming a far less interesting character other than that time he made(?) not-Power Girl and promptly got shitslapped for it.
BRB, rewatching the Mr. Freeze episode of Batman.
>then becomes a fairly one-dimensional villain because "evil superman evil", turning on a dime and becoming a far less interesting character other than that time he made(?) not-Power Girl and promptly got shitslapped for it.
That didn't happen until JLU
They didn't have this type of shot in every episode.
Batman is a more popular character and had just come off the back of the Tim Burton film. Atmospherically and thematically, it just resonates more with the average male viewer.
I personally prefer Superman, both as a charac ter and as an animated series, but he doesn't have the same mass appeal and is decidedly more "old-fashioned" and "dorky"
Is it weird that I really liked the tannish look that Superman had?
Certainly fits a man who grew up working the fields of Kansas while also literally being powered by the sun.
Lame villains.
Batman's villains were darker and thus cooler (especially in the edgy 90s, when stuff like Skeleton Warriors was just a cartoon for kids)
Fangirl filter. moronic men like Bruce are more appealing; healthy, well-adjusted and humble men intimidate them. It was strictly a boys' cartoon, one of the last of its kind.
It doesn't really have as many stand out episodes. The one where it;'s mostly him being a reported and you see the villain get killed at the end was great. Livewire is also really fricking good.
This is compared to the Batman show which had hit after hit of iconic episodes, even the lesser known villians used once had iconic episodes. Almost every episode is iconic in some way.
They produced way more episodes for Batman and aired it all 5 days a week, whereas Superman aired one episode a week, and had probably less than half as many episodes produced. Superman was also cancelled- Legacy was meant to be a season finale and the next was Superman’s redemption arc where he would gather up the Justice League.
In hindsight, I think they were running out of ideas, and the fact that Bruce Timm was always intending to go forward with the Justice League says a lot in how long he wished to utilize Clark as a solo starring character in his own series.
It is Superman, the most normalgay cape hero. He is so normalgay tier they needed to try and brood him up in the Snyderverse. Hell, my father was a Supeman fan, and even collected Detective Comic back when he was a kid. To bad they were all damaged in a flooding. I thought MoS was entertaining enough, but was a horrible portrayal for a main cinematic Superman archetype.
because Batman is always much more interesting than Superman
feel free to keep coping and seething supertrannies
I want Supeman to be Superman!
Because Batman has to be smart and has a real challenge with his enemies. Superman could just superspeed at everyone and end the episode right off if he wanted. There is rarely a challenge for him.
DC has repeatedly had stinkers for videogames too. For every NES Batman|ROTJ there was Batman Dork Tomorrow or Sin Tsu. For every Superman Returns and Shadow of Apokolips there was MK vs DC, Justice League Heroes or some other jank. I'm leaving Superman 64 alone since that wasn't Titus's fault it was on DC|WB. The last good hits DC has had recently was TTGO and Shazam.
I could never get home early enough from school to catch it.