I was 8 years old when my piano teacher slammed the fingerboard down and caught the tips of my fingers because I fricked up something from not practicing enough (or maybe because I was only 8 years old...).
The only unrealistic thing here is your lack of command over english grammar.
this
it's completely exaggerated for the sake of the movie
the moment he throws something at a student, he would get sued to death. especially if that student doesn't dodge it.
Abusive parents abuse their children for selfish reasons (i.e., they want to feel better about themselves). Fletcher was abusive for mutually beneficial reasons (i.e., he got no pleasure from it, and he knew the student wanted to improve his craft, so he pushed him past his limit).
> watch movie with mom > last scene when the protagonist leaves his dad to go back to Fletcher > she says "Of course he is not going to stay with you, you fricking loser" out loud
She meant that this was Neiman's shot at becoming somebody and his dad was trying to push him towards a life of mediocrity.
Basically, your mom is based and you're a loser.
If he wasn't bald he wouldn't be such an butthole and could probably have a music career of his own rather than trying to hitch his wagon to someone with actual talent. Many such cases!
(1) There is a clear difference between tough love and being a shrieking psychopath who gets some weird kick out of bullying kids.
(2) Very few of the world's greatest artists trained in an environment like that. Even the ones with shitty childhoods were usually neglected rather than actively abused.
(3) It's unbelievably callous to frick a shit-ton of young people up just because there's a tiny chance that one of them might turn out to be really good at playing a musical instrument.
If you could get better results out of people by yelling at/abusing them, the corporate world would be doing it. It's a very dubious assertion that you can bully people into developing talent, especially if they have no emotional investment to their instructor beyond Stockholm syndrome
When the guys in my band pointed out that I don't scream at them as much as I used to, I said it was because they don't make as many mistakes these days.
The system works.
>If you could get better results out of people by yelling at/abusing them, the corporate world would be doing it.
They used to before the mass introduction of women in the workplace. Now every company is dysfunctional shitshow with nonstop catfights and petty intrigue prioritized over actual work
The idea that mediocre artists need to be clamped down on and thrown into an environment where only a tiny handful of exceptional people will survive is idiotic. Even mediocre artists can sometimes create great work. Also truly great artists are often inspired by their community of peers, even if some of those peers aren't remarkable in-and-of-themselves. The optimal culture for art to thrive is one where all art is encouraged as much as possible, and then you naturally just tolerate or ignore the shitty stuff. The truly great ones will cultivate themselves if they have the capacity for it.
Fletcher has a point in the broad sense that the artists who actually are the legends of their craft get to where they get through tons of adversity and struggle. Lots of the jazz greats fits this profile to a T, but what seemed to be lost in the translation is that overwhelming amount of these jazz legends never went to music school, but had to grind their teeth in the gigging industry hard. Or else their heroin addictions would get the better of them and they die poor and destitute. It was a lot of black musicians of unique situations that led them down those paths that eventually leading them to be masters of their craft. Inherently being at a music school suggests so many aspects of the student's life is not like the lives of those jazz greats so then trying to artificially replicate that in a classroom doesn't actually work. Its treating it like a bootcamp when really that type of school is best when its like a monastery.
in the movie he mentions a 'birdman' and plays along to one of his tracks, it sounded very impressive. i remember the name 'Charlie Parker' from the movie too, but that might just be Birdman's real name
also notoriously irrelevant, dead, gay and pointless.
The hilarious thing is metalhead dweebs get just as good, if not better, playing drums in their bedrooms autistically. Maybe getting drunk with other metalhead dweebs playing music in somebody's garage
I study education. The quick run down is that one generation is too rigid, the next generation is soft and fuzzy, the one after that is rigid again and so on. Being unforgiving to mistakes is as effective as being totally forgiving to mistakes, that is, not effective at all. The best educational systems are complex, accounts to many other variables and do not fall into either of these categories.
He is bad. As a teacher and as a human being. His whole method revolves around an anecdote about a jazzman, so he keeps shitting on students, humiliating them because at some point a hardworking genius will grow from the ashes ? You want to push youths to the brink and show them the qualities of discipline and perseverance but also foster their creativity to ensure they'll never let go of those virtues, not curbstomp them because muh tempo.
if this scenario actually happened fletcher would have to wear a permanent neck brace after he tried mean mugging some nig student who proceeded to mandingo windmill punch him into early retirement. you can't be that much of a c**t to early 20's men without risking injury, no matter how many deflated old ballsack muscles you have
a good point, but these are musicians we're talking about. not suge knight/gg allin/varg vikernes type of musicians (volatile people who happen to make music), but college students who want to become session musicians or music teachers. by default they're the 'gentle artistic' types.
The film takes the judgement position that he is a bad guy, but not by showing that what he does doesn't work
More like showing that it only works with a specific type of subject, who is willing to give everything for it
The film ends with the father having lost his son to a certain fast life and early death, even though the protagonist "wins" by achieving fletcher's respect and commitment
The only thing the teacher did wrong was not have his class sign a waver so if they offed them selves he wouldn't be responsible and its sad that we live in a day and age that hed have to do that cuz we got so many pussy homosexuals. The MC was a loser playing second fiddle and he would of kept being a loser playing second fiddle and if the teacher didn't pick him up and at any given time those kids could of got up and left that class room and never came back. The teacher molded the best, his job was to mold the best and some people like the MC need people like the teacher to take them beyond second fiddle losers.
it's demonstrated that fletcher is a extremely mediocre musician who has to play pling plong piano for 20 people to make ends meet, and his teaching literally just consisted of yelling at people and lying that they're out of tempo. he's an awful teacher
>have his class sign a waver so if they offed them selves he wouldn't be responsible
Waivers routinely get thrown out in court by the judge. They’re not remotely as legally binding as people think they are.
The movie itself shows Fletcher as vicious, hateful and jealous person who hides these traits under the mask of "strict mentor". So if we're talking about the movie then his character is just a personification of MC's obsession with becoming elite musician. In irl Fletcher would be just beaten up and humbled really fast
the whole films theme is "how much bad can saying good job do", it's not about whether or not the toxic teacher student relationship is good or not it's about unhealthy obsessions, fletchers methodology is a byproduct of his obsession with the story about the jazz musician and his perception of the relationship to his mentor, this perception does not correlate to the real relationship or even to real facts yet he follows it, the student is a little shitbag in equal amount to his friends and family. part of the story deals with nurture as well i can't remember if fletcher had some sob story behind him but it's probably daddy issues with him, just like with the student
either way the film is moronic and capeshit tier writing.
"I guess I did good enough" is bad, like in the story about the musician that flubbed his audition and went home and tried really hard.
"I'll hit you until you get it right. I'll also hit you when you do get it right." was not correct.
Fletcher did nothing wrong. Nobody is forcing you to work under him. If you don't like his tactics you're free to leave. If you're willing to sacrifice your entire life to be "the best" at some meme that nobody gives a frick about like jazz, then more power to you.
Most people did leave. He was doing something wrong, he chewed through tons of students using his clumsy filter method rather than actually teach anyone.
Not that the film was making this point, but he's rather quite a bit like most University courses: It's not about teaching anyone, it's about weeding out those that aren't already good at the task.
Fletcher never actually taught anything.
>he taught how to keep time!
He didn't, and by the way learning one piece doesn't make you a musician.
Being able to play a particular piece is the bare minimum, the starting point, it's like learning how to draw.
Learning what to draw, from within yourself, or play is what's actually hard.
Being a great musician isn't about how well you can do the job of a tape recorder (or pick whatever music playing machine), it's how well you can elevate the piece beyond what's written on the page.
Fletcher did nothing wrong. Nobody is forcing you to work under him. If you don't like his tactics you're free to leave. If you're willing to sacrifice your entire life to be "the best" at some meme that nobody gives a frick about like jazz, then more power to you.
I don't give a frick about muh legality, I'm speaking in principle. He did nothing wrong, nobody is forcing you to be there. Don't like it, leave his class.
Short answer good with an 'if' - long answer bad with a 'but'
No, such unrealistic..not even army is like that. Bs movie
I was 8 years old when my piano teacher slammed the fingerboard down and caught the tips of my fingers because I fricked up something from not practicing enough (or maybe because I was only 8 years old...).
The only unrealistic thing here is your lack of command over english grammar.
if i were your parent, i would've been none too impressed
Which is why I never told them about it.
this
it's completely exaggerated for the sake of the movie
the moment he throws something at a student, he would get sued to death. especially if that student doesn't dodge it.
He's fired for his abuse in the movie
yeah, but way too late to be realistic
people with that kind of reputation do not exist in any kind of school or university or even any corporation
>people with that kind of reputation do not exist in any kind of school or university or even any corporation
That's just what you'd like to believe.
Chaotic good. People who never (really) apply themselves will never understand.
if abusing people was a good method to make them the best they can be children of abusive parents wouldn't be the mess they usually are
Abusive parents abuse their children for selfish reasons (i.e., they want to feel better about themselves). Fletcher was abusive for mutually beneficial reasons (i.e., he got no pleasure from it, and he knew the student wanted to improve his craft, so he pushed him past his limit).
> watch movie with mom
> last scene when the protagonist leaves his dad to go back to Fletcher
> she says "Of course he is not going to stay with you, you fricking loser" out loud
What did she mean by this, bros?
It means your mom is a filthy prostitute.
She meant that this was Neiman's shot at becoming somebody and his dad was trying to push him towards a life of mediocrity.
Basically, your mom is based and you're a loser.
Your mom possibly has tourette's
isn’t that the point? his dad is a spineless loser, he represents comfortable mediocrity in contrast to fletcher’s painful greatness
Your mom is based but she may also be a prostitute, it's hard to say
Your moms based I want to marry and care for her
She'd call you an incel loser
he's a lil pussycat compared to Schillinger
>I've always wondered, is Adebisi's baton bigger than mine?
If he wasn't bald he wouldn't be such an butthole and could probably have a music career of his own rather than trying to hitch his wagon to someone with actual talent. Many such cases!
I appreciate pushing your students but you could achieve that without yelling at them. Rigor and chimping out aren't mutually inclusive.
(1) There is a clear difference between tough love and being a shrieking psychopath who gets some weird kick out of bullying kids.
(2) Very few of the world's greatest artists trained in an environment like that. Even the ones with shitty childhoods were usually neglected rather than actively abused.
(3) It's unbelievably callous to frick a shit-ton of young people up just because there's a tiny chance that one of them might turn out to be really good at playing a musical instrument.
If you could get better results out of people by yelling at/abusing them, the corporate world would be doing it. It's a very dubious assertion that you can bully people into developing talent, especially if they have no emotional investment to their instructor beyond Stockholm syndrome
When the guys in my band pointed out that I don't scream at them as much as I used to, I said it was because they don't make as many mistakes these days.
The system works.
>If you could get better results out of people by yelling at/abusing them, the corporate world would be doing it.
They used to before the mass introduction of women in the workplace. Now every company is dysfunctional shitshow with nonstop catfights and petty intrigue prioritized over actual work
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Good. He was in fact, the essence of goodness because he encapsulates the need for overcoming oneself
The idea that mediocre artists need to be clamped down on and thrown into an environment where only a tiny handful of exceptional people will survive is idiotic. Even mediocre artists can sometimes create great work. Also truly great artists are often inspired by their community of peers, even if some of those peers aren't remarkable in-and-of-themselves. The optimal culture for art to thrive is one where all art is encouraged as much as possible, and then you naturally just tolerate or ignore the shitty stuff. The truly great ones will cultivate themselves if they have the capacity for it.
Fletcher has a point in the broad sense that the artists who actually are the legends of their craft get to where they get through tons of adversity and struggle. Lots of the jazz greats fits this profile to a T, but what seemed to be lost in the translation is that overwhelming amount of these jazz legends never went to music school, but had to grind their teeth in the gigging industry hard. Or else their heroin addictions would get the better of them and they die poor and destitute. It was a lot of black musicians of unique situations that led them down those paths that eventually leading them to be masters of their craft. Inherently being at a music school suggests so many aspects of the student's life is not like the lives of those jazz greats so then trying to artificially replicate that in a classroom doesn't actually work. Its treating it like a bootcamp when really that type of school is best when its like a monastery.
An abuser that uses "you must put up with this or you'll never git gud" as his excuse.
Never watched this but isn't this guy a teacher of some moronic instrument like cymbals or bongos or something?
jazz drumming, notoriously difficult apparently
also notoriously irrelevant, dead, gay and pointless.
I'd understand if he's teaching saxophone or piano or something that makes you a jazz star. Were any famous jazzers drummers?
in the movie he mentions a 'birdman' and plays along to one of his tracks, it sounded very impressive. i remember the name 'Charlie Parker' from the movie too, but that might just be Birdman's real name
The hilarious thing is metalhead dweebs get just as good, if not better, playing drums in their bedrooms autistically. Maybe getting drunk with other metalhead dweebs playing music in somebody's garage
I study education. The quick run down is that one generation is too rigid, the next generation is soft and fuzzy, the one after that is rigid again and so on. Being unforgiving to mistakes is as effective as being totally forgiving to mistakes, that is, not effective at all. The best educational systems are complex, accounts to many other variables and do not fall into either of these categories.
>it's both sides at once and a little bit of everything
brilliant insight, doc
and yet it goes over a lot of people's heads
How's your second semester of undergrad starting off, kid? Looking forward to spring break, I hope.
He is bad. As a teacher and as a human being. His whole method revolves around an anecdote about a jazzman, so he keeps shitting on students, humiliating them because at some point a hardworking genius will grow from the ashes ? You want to push youths to the brink and show them the qualities of discipline and perseverance but also foster their creativity to ensure they'll never let go of those virtues, not curbstomp them because muh tempo.
if this scenario actually happened fletcher would have to wear a permanent neck brace after he tried mean mugging some nig student who proceeded to mandingo windmill punch him into early retirement. you can't be that much of a c**t to early 20's men without risking injury, no matter how many deflated old ballsack muscles you have
a good point, but these are musicians we're talking about. not suge knight/gg allin/varg vikernes type of musicians (volatile people who happen to make music), but college students who want to become session musicians or music teachers. by default they're the 'gentle artistic' types.
yeah but even andrew tried beating the shit out of him and he was restrained by the other students, and andrew is a wimp
Why would a jazz teacher act like a football coach?
both. it really depends on if the student is the type that needs this extreme style of master
some require patience, others need someone to force the talent out of them
The film takes the judgement position that he is a bad guy, but not by showing that what he does doesn't work
More like showing that it only works with a specific type of subject, who is willing to give everything for it
The film ends with the father having lost his son to a certain fast life and early death, even though the protagonist "wins" by achieving fletcher's respect and commitment
The only thing the teacher did wrong was not have his class sign a waver so if they offed them selves he wouldn't be responsible and its sad that we live in a day and age that hed have to do that cuz we got so many pussy homosexuals. The MC was a loser playing second fiddle and he would of kept being a loser playing second fiddle and if the teacher didn't pick him up and at any given time those kids could of got up and left that class room and never came back. The teacher molded the best, his job was to mold the best and some people like the MC need people like the teacher to take them beyond second fiddle losers.
it's demonstrated that fletcher is a extremely mediocre musician who has to play pling plong piano for 20 people to make ends meet, and his teaching literally just consisted of yelling at people and lying that they're out of tempo. he's an awful teacher
You literally just described every teacher ever.
>have his class sign a waver so if they offed them selves he wouldn't be responsible
Waivers routinely get thrown out in court by the judge. They’re not remotely as legally binding as people think they are.
The movie itself shows Fletcher as vicious, hateful and jealous person who hides these traits under the mask of "strict mentor". So if we're talking about the movie then his character is just a personification of MC's obsession with becoming elite musician. In irl Fletcher would be just beaten up and humbled really fast
Bad.
NEXT!
the whole films theme is "how much bad can saying good job do", it's not about whether or not the toxic teacher student relationship is good or not it's about unhealthy obsessions, fletchers methodology is a byproduct of his obsession with the story about the jazz musician and his perception of the relationship to his mentor, this perception does not correlate to the real relationship or even to real facts yet he follows it, the student is a little shitbag in equal amount to his friends and family. part of the story deals with nurture as well i can't remember if fletcher had some sob story behind him but it's probably daddy issues with him, just like with the student
either way the film is moronic and capeshit tier writing.
"I guess I did good enough" is bad, like in the story about the musician that flubbed his audition and went home and tried really hard.
"I'll hit you until you get it right. I'll also hit you when you do get it right." was not correct.
Most people did leave. He was doing something wrong, he chewed through tons of students using his clumsy filter method rather than actually teach anyone.
Not that the film was making this point, but he's rather quite a bit like most University courses: It's not about teaching anyone, it's about weeding out those that aren't already good at the task.
Fletcher never actually taught anything.
>he taught how to keep time!
He didn't, and by the way learning one piece doesn't make you a musician.
Being able to play a particular piece is the bare minimum, the starting point, it's like learning how to draw.
Learning what to draw, from within yourself, or play is what's actually hard.
Being a great musician isn't about how well you can do the job of a tape recorder (or pick whatever music playing machine), it's how well you can elevate the piece beyond what's written on the page.
good bad
I wouldn't consider anything, I would listen. And that's what no one did.
I would have broken this fricking pussy's jaw for talking to me like that
Fletcher did nothing wrong. Nobody is forcing you to work under him. If you don't like his tactics you're free to leave. If you're willing to sacrifice your entire life to be "the best" at some meme that nobody gives a frick about like jazz, then more power to you.
if the film was realistic he would be fired and probably arrested. even in military you're not allowed to shout at or disparage the grunts anymore.
I don't give a frick about muh legality, I'm speaking in principle. He did nothing wrong, nobody is forcing you to be there. Don't like it, leave his class.