You know I gotta admit that the way Chainsaw Man served as a red pill for the Adventure Time community was pretty great. Watching so many people turn on PB just gives me a warm feeling.
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Why are cartoon girls so ugly? How can you frick up what is basically an stickman?
People turned on PB way before Chainsawtrans premiered gay
and it doesn't change the fact that Bonnie is still best girl
People on here turned on PB and maybe the occasionally YouTube video. This wasn't a commonly held belief among normies till fairly recently.
Normies don’t watch adventure time or AT analysis videos you dingus.
I didn't say that they did, notice how I said those were the only places this kind of idea existed and that they weren't common.
Based. And yes, this comparison changed nothing. Morons been hating on my girl for years
You love the Reddit incarnate character?
WTF? Someone defending Bubblegum on Cinemaphile, in a Finncel thread of all things? Now I've seen everything.
>finncel
Is hating on a kid abused by an non ageing tyrant really your your thing ?
I don't hate Finn, I just like making fun of his braindead fans who pretend everything in the show was about relationships.
prove it wasn't. lorecel.
Fully agree. Imagine writing a story where an indomitable authoritarian monarch uses a child soldier to do her bidding, and not realizing you wrote a bad guy.
The adventure time writing staff should really be recognized for their achievements in tone deaf writing. It's really on another fricking level
What? The show was well aware that PB was fricking evil, it's more like the fanbase was either convinced she was a generic tradwife made to be shipped with Finn, or an uwu heckin' wholesome lesbian who's never done anything wrong.
The first fricking episode has her reviving the dead and going oops teehee x3 about it, the only people who didn't catch onto PB being an insane tyrannical mad scientist was the shipping obsessed AT fanbase, the fact that it took other people to bring up the Makima thing for it to dawn on them that PB isn't just a generic waifu shows how bad the media analysis skills of the average person have gotten, and yes this includes Cinemaphile and whatever boogeyman they dislike this week.
>dedicate an entire special after the finale to PB and her special lesbian goth waifu
>she's living a comfortable life and an active protagonist
Shut the FRICK up moron.
PB was living a comfortable and active live while she was doing her tyrant bullshit too, moron. Evil people don't just sit around in bat filled evil lairs waiting for the next chance to commit war crimes, they can do normal people shit and still be evil.
PB is an insane, immortal control freak evil scientist tyrant who purposely makes a nation of morons so they can't overthrow her, AND she gets to hang out with her goth lesbian waifu because she's so above any force that would try to punish her for her actions. These two ideas can co-exist, as earthshattering as the revelation might be to you.
Agreed. I think there's a problem here and across the internet where people tend to need things spelled out for them to the point of characters embodying a stereotype. It almost makes you wonder if getting away with heinous crimes IRL can be as simple as smiling to these people while wearing a uniform or even tap dancing as you commit the crime.
>PB was living a comfortable and active live while she was doing her tyrant bullshit too, moron. Evil people don't just sit around in bat filled evil lairs waiting for the next chance to commit war crimes, they can do normal people shit and still be evil.
>PB is an insane, immortal control freak evil scientist tyrant who purposely makes a nation of morons so they can't overthrow her, AND she gets to hang out with her goth lesbian waifu because she's so above any force that would try to punish her for her actions. These two ideas can co-exist, as earthshattering as the revelation might be to you.
this is true. Thats how it works in real life too. Evil people rarely know they are evil. They dont work like story book dragons and monsters. The evil tends to be a list of random choices made across a lifetime, with their life being pretty normal inbetween. Ole Bin laden was playing AAA games, watching porn, and downloading movies between all his bullshit. Hitler liked to watch Disney movies, read westerns and play with his dogs between his bullshit.
Real evil people are more like adult cartoon villains that do normal stuff between heists or evil acts because the contrast is funny. Thats how real people are.
The problems are twofold: one, the writers try to make her sympathetic in solo episodes by ignoring the subtext that she's an evil tyrant. Two, there's never any payoff or comeuppance for her villainy. It might be "true to life," but it's annoying and unsatisfying writing.
>unironically believing Osama and Hitler were the villains
Lemme get this straight, you'd rather PB get her comeuppance than fricking Hitler?
Horseshoe theory is real
>Wokies: Drumpf is literally worse than Hitler
>Cinemaphile: PB is literally worse than Hitler
Adventure time is probably the only series I know that deliberately fricked itself over(characters, plot, even lore) with retcons and recontextualisations just to make one silly crackship canon and score some woke points. Now it makes me a little bit sad that the team decided to cut out the lore infodump from the very first episode, and I hate infodumps.
>tone deaf writers
They were just different writers, that's it.
I agree. I can't pinpoint when exactly, but the series got to a point where it started doing some crazy gymnastics to fit and recontextualize the behavior of it's characters. You can clearly see that the tone of the show and personality of the characters was one thing at the first seasons, but then it shifted.
Well if the rumors about the new avatar show making zuko & katara a couple to make the shippers happy it might top it
No, it really wasn't. You don't have a character do the things she did and then treat her as just another member of the cast. It really is a case of tone deaf writers not understanding the gravity of a situation, like fricking MCU hacks putting a quip in after every goddamn emotional beat. These people writing out of LA are a plauge and I hope to god this strike ruins them
>No, it really wasn't. You don't have a character do the things she did and then treat her as just another member of the cast. It really is a case of tone deaf writers not understanding the gravity of a situation, like fricking MCU hacks putting a quip in after every goddamn emotional beat. These people writing out of LA are a plauge and I hope to god this strike ruins them
I think the writers knew what they were doing. They shouldn't have to spell out to the audience that a character is evil, nor does the evil character need to experience some karmic retribution. Sometimes bad people get away with things, and their getting away with it shouldn't actually confuse you as a viewer on their moral alignment. If this kind of thing genuinely does confuse you, then you'll likely have much bigger IRL problems to worry about than a cartoon show.
It's more that the world and characters itself turn a blind eye or are simply oblivious to nearly all her bullshit
If you are willing to gut your writing, characters, world and show for one joke then it's a shitty joke
>its shitty because I didn't get it
The concept of a crooked cop would probably blow your mind too, huh?
A crooked cop is one thing. A crooked cop doing all his shit openly, having a felony list equal to mass terrorist's along with no repercussions or any consequences is just off. PB has a big disconnect between her actions and how she is treated and everything around her. She created a copy of herself that immediately went evil. Created robot squads and killed them when they showed individuality. All of that gets brushed aside and thrown under the bed to be forgotten. The show asking you to look and think about other character's wrong doings and mistakes like Finn's bad choices or any other attempt at deeper stuff just falls flat when you have candy Mengele who gets away with it.
That is literally the joke. She gets away with heinous shit that she otherwise would not be able to get away with because her people are moronic and she's manufactured a bubble where she can do whatever she wants.
It's a bad joke
Ok
Furthermore, the contrast to "deep" (but not really) situations with Finn and others where the audience is asked to "think about other character's wrong doings" provides an interesting contrast, dont you think? It's almost as if you're supposed to realize that the show is taking you for a ride by dragging you face first through a kiddy pool that a tyrant is openly pissing in and calling it "deep".
Partially right but if it was a male character doing all of this people would praise them and meme about how based they are.
The show could've done a better job resolving that.
>The show could've done a better job resolving that.
I pray you never have to deal with a sociopath in real life.
Playing it off as a joke doesn't work when you set a serious tone for your story and want the audience to be compelled. There was clearly an effort to redeem PB somewhat but they didn't commit to it enough.
I agree on most occasions but I remember being genuinely confused by the wedding episode, were we supposed to side with PB for throwing everyone in jail for no reason? If this was a joke, it felt self-indulgent and mary sue-ish, "and then my favorite character beat everyone up LOL". Nowadays I understand it was just a girlboss thing, you weren't supposed to take it seriously but you were kind of supposed to admire her power.
>It really is a case of tone deaf writers not understanding the gravity of a situation
You really expect consistent writing from a show that decided to shift from a post-apocalyptic Dungeons and Dragons parody to a half-assed character drama?
It really depends on what era of the show we're in and what group of writers. Initially PB was just meant to a quirky scientist and the whole brining the dead back to life was meant to be played as a joke. As the show started to grow and writers like Rebecca Sugar started to leave a lasting impact PB did in fact take up more tyrannical tendencies. When these writers eventually left to do their own shit the the poeple who left behind tried to back peddle on this shit and make PB the "uwu wholesome lesbian" and hook her up with Marcaline (which let's be real probably caused Sugar to quietly seethe).
>dubs of truth
It really is funny how much Sugar gets blamed for it when she was drawing shit like pic related
>It really is funny how much Sugar gets blamed for it when she was drawing shit like pic related
Sugar invented the Bubbeline lesbo ship with the episode where PB had marceline's T-shirt. Sugar also started injecting the show with Deeplore Nuggets like that episode where Ice King has Dementia and it's revealed he was Marcy's guardian in the past. The show died when Pendleton Ward tuned out and left.
Sugar made Bubbeline to make Marcy look good
>Look guys, my self insert is such a good person she was able to make amends with a terrible b***h like PB
Like one of Sugar's last episodes was about Marcy lusting over Finn so it's pretty clear what ending she wanted.
>Sugar
>Originally, Ward's idea for the episode was to do it in the style of Mystery Science Theater 3000, featuring Finn and Jake digging up actual Christmas specials, and having them comment on them. This would have entailed a mixing of live-action and traditional animation, but Ward eventually rejected this idea, because the mixing of live action with the animation would have destroyed the world that the cast and crew had spent three seasons creating.[3][4] To make up for this last-minute change of plans, the writers had to replace the Christmas programs that Finn and Jake would watch with "the Ice King's odd home movies".[3] McHale then crafted the story involving Simon Petrikov, a move that Ward heralded as "brilliant".
If you want to blame someone for deeplore, blame original creators. Sugar was just a storyboarder, like many others.
Also Sugar was the creator of Flame Princess, and she made her so Finn could be shipped off with someone else and only then they could force their shitty dyke fanfic ship later on into the series with Finn out of the way
Sugar made FP because she couldn't hook Finn up with Marcy due to the age gap. So instead she just made Marcy 2.0 which was Finn age that he can date without people getting mad. If sugar still wrote she'd probably have just went full Marcy in the later seasons.
I thought Natasha was responsible for the ship.
>who left behind tried to back peddle on this shit and make PB the "uwu wholesome lesbian"
No they don't, the entire final conflict at the end of the show's initial runtime is caused entirely because of PB's actions, again, a character can be fricking evil and also have a relationship, pic related (and most other state alchemists) assisted in genocide and yet still lived their lives as normal people. The fact that you can't wrap your head around the idea that someone can commit or assist in doing objectively awful shit, and then go home to their wife and kids instead of sitting on a throne and cackling like fricking Skeletor every day shows exactly what I'm fricking talking about.
>character does insane shit like revive the dead
>i-it was just for jokes bro stop thinking too hard about it bro why are you analyzing the media bro just ship and consoom
does insane shit like revive the dead
>>i-it was just for jokes bro stop thinking too hard about it bro why are you analyzing the media bro just ship and consoom
Are you stupid? The first season of adventure time had a much different tone compared to the rest of the series. It was alot more lighter and didn't take itself as seriously. PB being back the dead wasn't some first sign that she's actually some evil genius it was meant to be an introduction to the kinda wacky world that the first season was and played into the "smart character accidentally causes outbreak" trope. This is like one of those moronic theories online about "Dexter was actually evil" that fail to realize that the show was never meant to be taken that seriously.
In the first season PB was a wacky mad scientist who did mad scientist that could put others in danger because that was her character. She wasn't evil. In later season as the tone became more serious this did change. She was written more evil as the show progressed, which retroactively might make the first episode seem like the first instance of this but that's borderline revisionism.
she was always kind of fricked up.
OK but this wasn't some kind of deeper thought posses behind this. Stuff like this was more about being a sight gag rather than some deeper meaning about the character.
Pen thought it was funny because it implied a darker side to PB. Same season that had Pb saying shit like wanting to throw the duke of nuts in a dungeon for the rest of his life. Also played for comedy, but the point is PB's darker side from later seasons didn't pop out of thin air. The writers leaned into an element that was there from the start.
My brother in Christ, there is literally a mutilated dead body hanging from the walls in a hidden chamber. She's evil.
Yeah but as long as she was willing to frick Finn hypocrites like you didn't care and were willing to write it off as jokes. Only after she started being written as not interested did you start crying about how le evil PB is.
Dude for all we know that skeleton could be alive and will just walk out of here at the end of his sentence. There isn't any info the skeleton so it shouldn't be treated as anything more than a sight gag.
>In the first season PB was a wacky mad scientist who did mad scientist that could put others in danger because that was her character. She wasn't evil. In later season as the tone became more serious this did change. She was written more evil as the show progressed, which retroactively might make the first episode seem like the first instance of this but that's borderline revisionism.
death of the athor
Nah man I think you're overlooking one of the strokes of genius of early AT's writing. Just cause the tone glosses over it (very much a product of Finn's childish naive outlook on the world) doesn't mean there's still major questionable things being shown. Like the episode where Marceline is introduced and she sucks out the cream from a cream pie and throws its withered remains on Finn's face - to us adults the sexual metaphor should be entirely apparent there, but it's glossed over by the tone and framing because Finn himself doesn't know any better.
It's a real cool narrative device that really reinforces Finn's gradual ageing and maturation (until the show shits the bed and drags Finn out of the picture kicking and screaming), so I think it's vastly underselling the writing to call this change revisionism or death of the author. We see things that are clearly meant to raise alarm bells (like resurrecting a long-dead ex in the very first episode, implying that she's way older than she looks), and we see Finn just go "huh." and then snap back to simping and subservience because he's a kid who doesn't know he's being exploited. Seriously, please rewatch the early seasons bros, seeing for yourselves is better than listening to me and better than arguing about it.
To elaborate on this a bit more, the way that all the talk of "sight gags" misses the point only ironically illustrates the point of perspective further. You guys do understand that Finn is the one seeing these strange things and thinking to himself "lol, wacky and random" without thinking further about what it might imply, thus forming one level of the humour (very basic nonsequiturs that make no sense to an uncritical childish eye and thus become funny). The second level is seeing these things, picking up what the writers are putting down, and then getting a sense of Schadenfreude-tinted humour at Finn constantly missing these gigantic red flags because he's too trusting and Jake's too lazy to point it out.
Focusing on only one of these two levels and acting as if the other is a misinterpretation and not wholly intended is a disservice to the writing. They're clearly writing both for 10 year olds and adults at the same time, by writing the ultimate show about being a naive 10 year old, as an adult looking back on what it was like.
>character can be
Character can't "be". Character exist the way it's been created. By real people.
Is English your second language? What do you think 'be' means?
I saw her as a neurodivergent psycho the whole time I watched it growing up
You are a moron if you think she wasn't whitewashed in later seasons
>set up an episode where she make a clone that has the same nature as she does
>clone immediately starts using mind control to take over
>is only stopped when clone of Finn with his nature stops it
That episode was foreshadowing for what was to come. But someone decided that their shipping was more important that narrative or character progression.
PB's character progression was learning to let go of her need to be in control. It had nothing to do with Marceline, though she did help her a little. PB being the ultimate villain was just a crackpot theory the show was never going to entertain.
Did she thought? Did she actually let go of her controlling nature?
Nope, she'd force everyone to drink her moronation potion if she could.
They played PB for laughs once or twice that she's vindictive and petty. This was still during Penn's seasons, even. But then the controls veered off into her love life. Sorry but if you conveniently forget someone is bad, have zero comeuppance, and even give her someone to play kissyface with, it reeks of unawareness.
>conveniently forget someone is bad
The show was consistently framing her as morally grey. Oh no, did she not get punished enough? Well aorry, that's life for you.
I always understood it that she was always manipulative, but the general tone at the beginning played it more for "cartoon does a dumb and the characters move past it because they lack long time depth" laughs before they really tried to add long time emotional emphasis behind it.
Attempting to ground the characters will always retroactively change the entire tone of the show because continuity is a monster with zero boundaries if left unspecified. It's like peripheral vision, you'll know there's something there even if you don't take the time to truly inspect it.
>tyrant
If pb's deal is tyranny, what the frick is lemongrabs? The candy people were free to come and go from the kingdom, can you say the same of the lemons?
>tyran
>not realizing you wrote a bad guy
>writers like Rebecca Sugar
>"Marceline and Bubblegum were both interesting to me. Marceline actively tries to push people away. She seems bad, but she’s anxious and doesn’t have a high opinion of herself. She throws her weight around and tries to hurt people on purpose because that’s less painful than hurting people by accident. Bubblegum is the opposite: She appears good, but she’s a sociopath. She thinks very highly of herself, but she’s not selfish… She’s a cold, calculating tyrant, but she needs to be and knows she does what she does for all the right reasons. They’re both scary, they’re both control freaks. A monster and a mad scientist… secretly selfishly good, and secretly selfishly evil. They’re so fun"
>Sugar gets blamed
Deservedly, because she takes the credit for it even though she was actually not that important writer and didn't even add much to the story at large except for songs, Hunson and her Fire Kingdom OCs, but many other writers after first season created their own recurring characters, like lemongrab, root bear guy or HW so it wasn't anything unusual.
>idea that someone can commit or assist in doing objectively awful shit
I'd argue that Bubblegum didn't do much that was "evil", until the series decided to retcon her into immortal power hungry b***h who plays house with her dimwitted creations and genocides sentient robots without batting an eye. And the problem isn't that she does bad things, problem is that other main characters simply start to ignore it.
>final conflict
Technically that happened because magic man and betty ass-pulled GOLB into OOO. Actually it happened because CN cancelled the final season at the last minute
>Fully agree. Imagine writing a story where an indomitable authoritarian monarch uses a child soldier to do her bidding, and not realizing you wrote a bad guy.
>The adventure time writing staff should really be recognized for their achievements in tone deaf writing. It's really on another fricking level
given that some women want to frick and have children with murderes, going as far as to use death row as like a shopping list for partners, I'm not sure the writers know she is evil.
Women have an idea of what kind of power they find hot in men. And they copy that power when they get management jobs or write leader characters. And unfortunately some non zero number of women are attracted to tyrants and killers.
You're talking about fringe psychos.
You say that like people here wouldn’t do the exact same thing if the genders were reversed
>child soldier
What part of Fin's schtick was grooming? Joshua and Margret kicked ass and he slayed evil for himself.
The adventurer kid did tasks for Bubblegum so now Finncels pearl clutch that poor Finn was actually a child soldier lol
Nothing. People ignore that Finn wanted to do hero shit. There's one episode where he's bugging PB to give him quests and she tells him to frick off. Even when PB was deposed he just did shit for King of Ooo instead.
You do realize grooming doesn't have to be about sexuality and can just be general manipulation.
What manipulation? Finn and Jake have always wanted to be heroes like their parents and PB just gave them hero quests to do, hell, Finn and Jake we're working for multiple princesses in OOO. PB and the Candy Kingdom could have never existed and Finn would still do hero work.
Did it really? Are there less defenders of PB's ludicrously abhorrent actions now?
What the frick did she do that was abhorrent? She never acted on the camera shit before shutting it down and she pulled back when called out on the fire kingdom invasion. Even with the gumball soldiers, she was effectively their God despite the scrapping. Even with Gumbald and the rest of the family, she has the defense of being a child then with the pond and the potion moroning the rest of the family.
She is inherently evil. Goliad is proof of that.
Both of them are authoritarian but neither share goals with the Lich.
You don’t have to to still be evil.
Define evil
Goliad only became evil after Jake's shitty lessons for her, she is pragmatic and prefers efficiency but she is inherently morally grey, she could have been good but she learned the wrong lessons because Jake wasn't a good teacher, unlike Stormo who because of Finn's DNA is already morally good and didn't need lessons to sway him to a side.
Talking about adventure time in here is such a defeating sad experience because there’s so much shit you have to deal with, shit that pretty much suffocates any and all actual discussion that can be had.
I’ll just say season 3-b all the way to session 5 is peak adventure time and leave it at that
I feel you
I miss the drawthreads that were solely dedicated tot his series. AT isn't perfect, but man, it holds a special place in my heart because really helped me get back into drawing when I was ready to give up art entirely.
Remember when Fiona was made here?
Yeah, unfortunately discussing shit here is a gamble, but there's no other alternative that isn't even worse.
>chainsaw man is just adventure time without the sugarcoating
woah
What’s the status on Nayuta?
She's fine. They did a fake out a few chapters ago where she got capture by the government and was being used as a hostage but she just left. Like seriously what the frick is the government going to do to her, she can easily mind rape anyone they send.
I support PB because she's my favorite type of villain
I support PB because she's hot and cute
Based
My kinda woman
She might be evil but she's also hot so she gets a pass.
I don't even register the evil. Just the hotness. She was designed to be the cutest princess from conception.
Based. As long as she's hot she can't do anything wrong.
Mob face with hot/lewd body gets me like nothing else, AT fanart was a goldmine for this
Finally, a sensible soul
>Mangaka says the Denji and Pochits were inspired by Finn and Jake
>People use this as a bandwagon to go after PB as an expy for the evil big tiddy waifu
>Despite said mangaka not mentioning her as an inspiration
>Thinking PB has any tiddy
Even without citing direct inspiration, the similarity in dynamics and story of surrounding characters predisposes comparisons. And besides, if the shoe fits.
Has anyone got Pendleton's opinion on all this Chainsaw Man stuff?
He'd probably just say it's neat
I don't even know what the chainsaw man stuff is
Please reread the thread.
Oh I see now
Thanks
Devilman but Akira Fudoh's a simp.
So it’s shit?
I need big titty PB, please.
no it ISN'T
Adventure Time is just "The Name of the Rose" from 1986 but worse.
fionna screening tomorrow. I hope they release it.
I'm hoping for male betty.
The writers had been the biggest pussies in the entire industry.
Atheists and Lesbians ruined the character.
Princess Bubblebutt
PB won chuds, get over it
And the show lost. It's too bad they sacrificed the story just to pat themselves on the back.
Even if I agreed the pairing sucked, thinking it came at the expense of the entire show is moronic. People on here greatly exaggerate how important it was because they're mad their waifu didn't end up with their self-insert. Or because they wanted le epic twist villain xD
The author cited adventure time as a source of inspiration.
Literally would of made the story more interesting and thematic sense but enjoy your dykeslop.
>The author cited adventure time as a source of inspiration.
And? Red riding hood has inspired a lot of gory stuff, yet it would be dumb to compare it to them.
>Every time lesbians are in a show
>lesbians
I wish. They're just lame, safe girl bisexuals. Wake me up when male bisexuals pop up.
biexual is just a code word for gay as far as media is concerned
Same goes for real life, the second a penis willingly enters a mans body he’s a gay.
That is true, for men.
To be fair, in The Witch from Mercury the lesbians really did save the day and all the carnage before was performed by Best Mom and Big Sis.
No one cares about your terrible yuri wankbait
It's one of the worst things made in Gundam, and that's a tough competition
>Comparing a gory anime to a doddle kids show.
There's no point of return for u.
>it's gory and has a realistic artstyle so it's inherently more serious
Kys normie. Or learn to see past the most shallow things.
Jake Suit Man
The reason why PB became so evil came from how the audience (or at least vocal members of it) influenced the writers. AT starting out as a goofy fun adventure comedy, PB having mad scientist tendencies was just a fun quirk of the show. When they show began to occasionally make an episode that tried something new, such as an episode being deep or having more serious aspects to it. AT was a show praised for these episodes early on, as before then an episodic comedy like this wouldn't be expected to attempt to tell those kinds of stories. This positive reaction from the audience made the writers think they had to keep doing that, at the cost of the silly adventure stuff. So what was once just a quirky mad scientist princess started to be used in a more serious light and she turned out to be a tyrant as people kept building on that characterisation.
I do think the realised this was a bad thing though, as towards the end they tried to redeem her and have her arc be learning to not be so evil. Although I don't think they truly went far enough. You have the episode where she tries to steal those important relics from the fire kingdom because they are dangerous, and it was supposed to be an episode showing her learn grow into a better person. But the very fact she used the ice king to essentially poison a whole kingdom to steal their only self defence that is also an important cultural item for them in the first place just made her look more worse than she was before the episode making the development she has in it less impactful. There were a couple other moments like this, like lessoning her surveillance, losing her kingdom to the King of Ooo for a while and being humbled as a farmer, and her Gum relatives coming back to get revenge on her. But I don't think for most people this was enough, she didn't really learn enough or pay any sort of significant punishment for all her actions.
>I do think the realised this was a bad thing though, as towards the end they tried to redeem her and have her arc be learning to not be so evil.
There's only one reason why PB has been whitewashed the way she was and one reason only. There's no need for any excessive mental gymnastics.
It’s not mental gymnastics to remember she’s a main character and friend of the protagonist, she doesn’t need to be gay for them to realise she probably shouldn’t be one of the most evil characters on the show.
So the writers couldn’t commit so they undid it in a half assed way? Classic adventure time.
Pretty much. They set up too much stuff and didn't have the time to actually address it all, culminating in everything being shoved together in that final season and quickly tied off in the finale in a generally unsatisfying way. Solving long built up storylines with Finn/Fern and PB/her gum relatives in a single dream sequence with aunt lolly even just deciding to change alignment for literally no reason (she didn't see the dream sequence and was shown to be just as manipulative as the others before her becoming "good"). And then they shoved all the Betty/Ice King/Magic Man/Golb stuff in the second half of the episode. It was all just way too cramped. Ideally the show needed that extra season, although probably what it needed even more was for the writers to just be better at handling these storylines in the first place so they wouldn't get to that situation.
>It’s not mental gymnastics to remember she’s a main character and friend of the protagonist, she doesn’t need to be gay for them to realise she probably shouldn’t be one of the most evil characters on the show.
Or maybe the point was originally supposed to be that the protagonist is a flawed and impressionable young boy rather than a Gary Stu, and that his looking past her obvious evils due to a childhood crush was meant to very clearly illustrate one of those flaws.
Yeah basically.
personally i like evil PB and think she should get away with whatever she wants
I like how Marceline's immediate assumption upon seeing GOLB is that Bonnie had something to do with it.
>You know I gotta admit that the way Chainsaw Man served as a red pill for the Adventure Time community was pretty great
Where is this happening? Moreover, how is this character related to Bubblegum? I am in the dark.
The writer for Chainsaw Man admitted he based the main character and his devil friend after Finn and Jake, and one of the storyboard artists decided to draw up fan art of Princess Bubblegum as Makima in response to show appreciation.
And then people thought about the implications of Princess Bubblegum being compared to Makima, a older woman aesthetically close to the main character's age who put on the front of being a cool-headed government official but was secretly a emotionally manipulative and hyper-controlling inhuman monster who intentionally strung along a pubescent young man with promises of love and affection in order to retain his loyalty, essentially grooming an emotionally starved orphan into becoming her mindlessly loyal child soldier, and the comparisons resulted in a lot of people now arguing about whether what PB did to Finn is child abuse or not considering she took her sweet time telling Finn she outright refuses to love him the way he loved her yet had no issues using that false hope to essentially keep stringing him along to serve as hero to the Candy Kingdom up until the point it made her uncomfortable.
Damn.
Yeah more or less though the comparison did start before Ian drew that pick, like the image was a quote tweet to someone asking who was worse. Ian just gave the idea traction.
Also for the comparison of Finn and Denji both are also blonde and have female friends who are directly tied to blood.
Makima is supposed to be Denji’s abusive mother figure. Fujimoto even points out in an interview that if you take the Ki, or Tree, out of Makima, you get Mama, and that he based their relationship off of documentaries about abusive parenting, and bit of Haruko from FLCL.
I think it’s a bit of a coincidence that Makima and Bubblegum are so close to each other, but it is a bit concerning when some of those comparisons can be made.
Yeah, for what it's worth, it's definitely not a 1 to 1 perfect comparison, especially when you consider
Chainsaw Man's author's original intent, but that it's possible to make this many connections between Makima and PB does give one a lot to chew on as a fan, especially considering how Adventure Time does take time to reflect on the aftereffects of Finn's failed relationships, like when we caught a glimpse into his happy place.
It's funny how Cinemaphile had been talking about what a monster PB was before the series even ended, and it took some dumb anime fanart to finally make the fandom as a whole wake up to the fact. Like people had been calling PB a manipulative psycho here for years, it's amazing how fricking stupid the rest of the AT community really was.
Discussions on how manipulative and evil PB is have existed everywhere for over a decade. Cinemaphile was not special.
Let him have his high
And they were shot down by the fandom at large, at first out of sheer blindness or then "muh uggu lesbian kiss". Cinemaphile was the only place where it was consistently maintained that PB was a monster until morons had an anime comparison that finally showed it to their faces.
>And they were shot down by the fandom at large
I doubt that nobody acknowledged that at all. But people were also willing to acknowledge her moral greyness.
>Cinemaphile was the only place where it was consistently maintained that PB was a monster
It was, but mainly because she didn't frick Finn.
>It was, but mainly because she didn't frick Finn.
Hey I mean, right for the wrong reasons I guess.
She diiiiiid knowingly lead him on for however many years - you'd probably be mad too if it actually happened irl
When did she explicitly lead fin on? You could make a case that maybe he had a chance when she de-aged, but it didn't look like that was going anywhere.
Do you literally not remember how every second episode she'd be like "teeheehee" and give him a kiss on the cheek before sending him off to do something for her? Or calling him "my hero" in drawn out giggly tones that clearly appealed to his self image and belief that if he kept this up he'd get in with her? In "The Real You" (s2e14ish I think?) she receives explicit written confirmation that he wants her to fall for him, kisses him, then never does anything with that information later, despite now knowing explicitly how he feels about her and how her actions encourage and exploit that
I remember it being spaced out, but other princesses did that as well. Even with the glasses and the black-hole, her behavior wasn't a change from the usual.
That's my point, this is just one example of regular behaviour from her which led Finn on, but from that point forwards she couldn't feign ignorance about how she was making him feel
I mean that's how alot of internet discourse goes. An idea starts on Cinemaphile, permeates for a while and then leaks into the mainstream where it will blow up.
Cinemaphile is the source of most memes and is generally 2 years ahead of the curve on everything.
Makes me feel bad for wasting my time on Cinemaphile instead.
Is chainsaw man a good read?
It’s pretty good.
>Pictured: anons defending PB ITT
I will frick the evil out of Bubblegum
>Adventure Time Studios, 3:30 AM
>A dark corner
>Pendleton Ward is scribbling away
>He has finished, at long last, the full story for the Adventure Time movie
>It's not perfect, nothing ever is, but it's as close to the memories of his tabletop games and comic books that motivated him to make that fateful pilot episode years ago
>The story is simple enough, Finn fights the Ice King to save Peebles, and then contends with the Lich. The structure is effective, but it's in the humor where the film truly shines
>Suddenly, the door to Pen's office bursts open
>He is blinded as light fills the room
>Jesse Moynihan, Steve Little, Somvilay Xayaphone, and even Rebecca Sugar walk into the office
>Pen has not heard from them in months
>He hasn't seen Rebecca for years
>"W-what's up, guys?", he asks, a mix of fear and hope in his voice
>"We heard you finished the movie, Pen.", Little says, an eerie smile on his face
>"We wanted to offer feedback.", Moynihan chips in
>Ward clenches his teeth. "There's- there's no need for that, guys."
>"Oh, I insist.", Jesse says, and snatches the 500 storyboards from Pen's hand as he takes out a bright red sharpie.
>"This is no good at all", Little snorts, as he crosses off a picture of the Gumball Guardians and replaces them with Betty.
>"This plot point is too direct. You need to be more experimental and philisophical with your ending.", Moynihan mutters as he tears the final story board of Finn killing the Lich into pieces.
>"I like this panel.", Rebecca Sugar says, as she holds up a picture of Finn kissing Princess Bubblegum as Marceline cheers them all.
>"But it would work even better if you switched Finn with Marceline, don't you agree?"
>"N-no I- I don't agr-" Pen starts to mutter.
>He is met not with glares, but looks of incredulity.
>"Y-yes, you're right.", Pen says
>"I- I just wanted an Adventure, but maybe... maybe that's not what kids want. Go ahead and make the changes.
>AND YOU COULD HAVE IT ALL
>MY EMPIRE OF DIRT
Posts like this make me convinced that
is finncels' pent up sexual fantasy
>finncel
I swear, this word is just used by like two dedicated homosexuals on this board.
Both of you still salty no one but Twitter troons agree with you?
Nobody agrees with Finncels BUT Finncels, lol
>Finncel coping
Classic
Well, I guess you found the two.
Well, I guess coping is part of your nature
It's really funny how transparent they are. It's either these same two all the time, or the same anon responding to himself.
homie not only simping for a fake girl, but an objectively terrible one
The reasoning skills of a broken-minded manchild. Oh man, does it make me laugh. Please never stop
Your responses literally sound like a bot too
Uhhhh, yeeeee, literally, unironically, cuz. You got me homie!
I also like making fun of finncels
Finncel is definitely a title the Finncels earned. That's how it works, if a type of person is consistently obnoxious in a certain way people are going to start identifying them as such. It's definitely more than just two people who are sick of your shit. Finncels were the types who deluded themselves into thinking that Finn died alone and miserable just because he said his brother was his most important person in his life in Together Again. As if they've never had a best friend or a brother with that kind of bond and the only relationships they deem worthy are the ones where sex is involved.
I've always been a pro-Finn person and believe he deserved better characterisation and focus in the latter two thirds of the show, but it's annoying to argue in favor of him here when I have to associate with obnoxious self inserters who'd rather seethe about dykes than actually discuss Finn's character and story arc and how it could have been improved.
We call those people homosexuals, and you sure sound like one
>Finn dies loveless and without anyone to carry on his legacy; only has a dog he delusionally calls his “brother” that inevitably died before him.
>PB gets to find lesbian love, live a comfortable life; a happy end for her.
It really does feel like the writing of this show was worse than TTG.
Jake literally is his brother you moron
True they are brothers
>realistic outcomes == bad writing
Hmm...
>baiting at this hour
Come on anon.
What program do they use for this, clip studio? Corel painter? Which is it lads, what's the ideal digital paint Chad Workflow? Also crack versión pretty pls??
>lesbian is a manipulative and petty tyrant
What did AT mean by this?
It's not evil if she's hot.
What is your favorite PB quote.
Can't recall too many, but
> "You promised you wouldn't frickin tell anyone!"
is stuck in my head
At least Makima ultimately fulfilled her role as a wife and mother, leaving Denji with a daughteru... that's technically her with a brainwipe.
Show me examples of how this show has made people turn on pb
I’m talking about chainsaw man, how did chainsaw man make people turn on bubblegum?
Because Makima and Bubblegum have a lot of similarities. They manipulate a young boy who’s in love with them into being their child soldier, they’re extremely controlling, they’re older than they look, and various other similarities that made people realize that PB is actually a terrible person. It might’ve been intentional on the author’s part too, since he was inspired by Adventure Time to make Denji and Pochita’s relationship like Finn and Jake’s according to one of the interviews he did.
Actual serial killer behavior
Not to twist your dick or anything, I don't have a dog in this fight
But if the creatures she is experimenting on are designed to (I'm assuming) not feel pain or be distressed... does it even mater what she's doing to them?
Why would you create such a creature in the first place?
To experiment, honestly it's even more ethical than the tests we do on rats and pigs in our world.
... If you want to experiment on something why give it consciousness?
Feedback. Relatability.
Anon I'm sorry but that sounds evil.
What in the scene makes it seem like it's conscious? Could be nothing more than a slightly advanced candy "machine", which by the extremely nonchalant attitude it has is probably the case, even a wild animal is probably more conscious than these little guys.
Honestly, I wanna make a comic or a game one day with a character that’s essentially a deconstruction of pb and all the other crappy princess deconstructions we get nowadays.
>acts really annoying and agressive towards other people, constantly belittiling others
>rules her kingdom like a tyrant or a “girlboss”
>she explains to the hero that she’s a lesbian and you don’t always get the girl in the end, only for the girl the princess is crushing on to get with the hero
>ends up becoming the villain because of this
>eventually revealed she isn’t the princess at all and is someone else pretending to be the princess, the real princess is a naive kindhearted girly person who was cursed into another form
Just as lame and gay as people like Vivzie turning hell into the cool quirky place and heaven a bunch of misogynist squares for the sake of subversion and deconstruction
Bitterness is anathema to creation
Those are nothing alike.
>eventually revealed she isn’t the princess at all and is someone else pretending to be the princess, the real princess is a naive kindhearted girly person who was cursed into another form
Camp Lazlo beat you to it
Link?
Oh, that’s what you were talking about, not quite the same thing
>Create world
>Write characters
>Crazies in fandom are woketards ship two female characters
>Whatever
>Hire new writers as show gets bigger
>The hires are the crazy shippers
>Take over and make their lesbian ships real at the cost of everything else
Yep. Same shit happened with Blizzard's Overwatch.
princess bubblegum only did what was best for her kingdom. why does that make her a bad person? she could've used one million child soldiers and one billion monitoring devices and she still would've been justified in protecting her people. the very people who were cosmically forced to turn on her. bonnibel bubblegum is a tragic character and no amount of fallacious collocation can change the fact that intent is all that makes the morals of a character, and in this measure bubblegum is shown to more often than not have righteous intent.
Pb, get off the computer
Although I am someone who defends PB a lot here, the show does call her out with all the surveillance cameras and stuff, FP calls in her face that she isn't a good person, although that does start a character development for her. PB is a decent-to-good person who does morally questionable things from time to time for righteous reasons, she is probably the reason the continent of OOO is so stable despite all the shit going on there as she is the most powerful leader in the place, but we can't forget the bad stuff she did as well.
Chainsaw man is communist propaganda, which is based
This is what should have happened to pb
Fixed something
It's time. For the anons who are at SDCC, post spoilers.
https://twitter.com/HypraSeaPea/status/1681838719157039104
waiting for someone to post a phone recording of the episode online
The CSM stuff has been nice in showing people how PB is fricked up in a real way but it also went too far in the other direction. People now think that PB was actually grooming Finn when he was nearly always very excited to help her and she didn't have to do much work.
The thing is, she did manipulate him in certain ways, even ones no one ever brings up like how she was 900 years old the entire time but never told Finn and he had to find out on his own (I can think of no reasoning for hiding that which makes PB look good), but ultimately what PB did was use Finn to half help her kingdom and half get adventures and quests and shit both of which he always wanted to do. So, it's light fricked up. The other real bad thing PB did with Finn is let his delusions about having a chance with her go on for waaaaay too long, despite what people say I don't think there's ever a time in the show that she straight up told Finn hey I'm too old for you it's not gonna happen lets just be friends. The closest is probably Too Old or something but as I recall that was some bullshit about her just having too much responsibilities to play little boy games. Other than these most of PB's awful actions involve her own subjects not Finn.
However, to my understanding Makima is like legitimately evil and the villain of CSM and fricks over Denji a lot more than PB ever fricked with Finn. So PB isn't to that level even if you take the most uncharitable interpretation of all of her actions. I see a lot of people acting like PB is worse when these discussions are had and while I only have half the info it just doesn't seem like that's true.
In conclucion PB is more fricked up than the uwu baby lesbian fans like to admit but she's also not literally Makima Hitler like people are saying nonstop recently. She's just a pretty fricked in the head god ruler who treats her moron subjects more like toys instead of actual people even though she made them that way, and who also could have saved Finn a lot of trouble if she told him she was a dyke in season 2.
She’s incredibly evil. She spies on her citizens, made them moronic so they could never do anything without her, experiments on them, created Goliad and Lemongrab, caused two zombie apocalypses, had Flame Princess imprisoned, employs Peppermint Butler, steals from Finn and Jake, etc.
I'm not a PB gay but she's not blatantly evil, even though she does evil things.
She does genuinely care about her people even if she fricks with them and looks down on them, she does care about Finn even though she didn't treat him the best either (really I think this point would be much improved if the writers in the later seasons had her actually like Finn as a friend instead of how she seemed to merely tolerate him a lot), and she does want to keep the land safe and stable.
That is a good point with FP though, both the show and PBgays ignore how PB was at least complicit in imprisoning a literal infant for like 12 years. Pretty fricked up. Funnily enough it looked like there was a small retcon on how that played out too since in Burning Low she said she locked up Flame Princess but the later episode has her dad do it.
The writers realized it was too fricked up to justify, so they got rid of it rather than confront the fact that Bubblegum did something really fricked up.
They do this a fair amount, or at least do something along those lines.
I'm reminded of how PB sabotaged the Flame Kingdom which would essentially be dooming the entire populace to dying without a fire source but apparently they all ended up fine and it's not even brought up.
Man maybe PB is just straight up evil, she really did so much fricked stuff. The show probably did go too hard on her to just walk her back as much as they did.
Sweeping it under the rug and ignoring feels worse than just acknowledging she really did those things to me.
Makima isn't "evil", but she's definitely not in the right. She's just very warped, misguided, and lonely due to her inability to form equal relationships stemming from her nature and being the government's puppet. But she's too far gone to change. She thinks a world without bad movies would be better than one with them, and like a child just wants to remove the unfortunate parts of life thinking that only experiencing sweet things and being entirely ignorant of the bad will make everyone happier.
>when he was nearly always very excited to help her
That's still grooming, especially cause he was still far to young to be making those decisions. Keep in mind this is not the first time she tried using someone like a hero with horrendous consequences too. This is the issue with recontextualizing stuff, they only sometimes want us to judge characters and their actions by reals standards. Honestly it annoys me more with Jake and his kids. They tried to do stories about him not being around or not growing up enough as if they were normal. But those abominations fricked off in an episode, you can't just push your family issues onto a character who was denied time to grow.
>This is the issue with recontextualizing stuff, they only sometimes want us to judge characters and their actions by reals standards.
This is completely true but the stuff you mentioned is looking into it too far. Finn is only 12 years old but he's also a badass adventurer who could fight giant monsters toe to toe and win just fine. That's why I find it so funny when people criticize PB for using child soldiers and shit, my guy even if the cartoon got lost up its own ass you're currently doing the same by arguing this.
AT did have a problem of it taking stuff that early on clearly was not meant to be serious and then making it serious. Oh I guess Ice King is wacky because he got mind broken to despair, oh I guess Marcy's dad is actually a negligent father not a goofy version of Satan who ate her fries. So on and so forth. It's hard to make tonal sense out of that, I think I usually go with if the show decided it was serious even if it was stupid then it's serious, if not it's still goofy and not a big deal (barring some strange stuff like how LSP fricking dateraped Finn kind of but it was no big deal wtf)
Oh forgetting my favorite example of it was goofy but now serious: turns out Marceline's dad wasn't just being wacky, Gunther is literally an ancient cosmic space deity that ate planets and was one of the most evil beings in the galaxy.
One of the most underrated moronic things in the show.
>looking into it too far.
Thing is is you just want to arbitrarily draw that line you can put it anywhere and hand wave any issue presented. Especially when the show does examine if Finn's Adventure-tism is healthy multiple times usually concluding it really is not. But those around him who encouraged certain actions do not get the same treatment. Then you have inconsistencies on other issues. Finn is bad cause of his weird 1 episode cuck fetish, TT is okay being a crazy alien swinger for far longer than the joke was funny. The application of morality by characters in the show only makes sense from a out of show context based on what the writers wish to do. Rather than a natural extension of their character. You can see this in character arcs generally like how they never properly solved Marceline being an eternal moody teen who can't deal with authority. She just chills and cries a lot to facilitate other stories.
They solved it by pairing her with the most controlling and tyrannical c**t in the show. Problem solved.
What I found especially strange was that in the same season that PB was prepared and about to commit genocide on the Fire Kingdom, and Finn whoring himself out to a bunch of princesses from sadbrains about his dad, both some of the lowest points for each respective character, they had some of the most heartfelt interactions with each other of the entire show. Finn and Jake convincing PB to chill out for a moment and just watch the candy people be dumbasses in James II. PB willing to get punched in the face by Finn just to help him set his mind straight about his dad at the end of The Tower. The entirety of The Pajama War.
Now, of course, you could attribute these interstitials of PB at her most grounded and humanizing in-between her bouts of being absolutely mental as a somewhat realistic depiction of how villains realistically would be, as pointed out by folks earlier (don't see themselves as evil, have normal lives apart from committing war crimes, etc.). Or, you could just pin it on inconsistent writing. I'm hedging my bets on the latter, and the main reason for that is that the show was always produced without a strong general direction, written primarily by storyboarders typically divorced from the context of surrounding episodes. It'd be difficult to commit to an overarching arc for a character if everyone writing each individual segment had completely separate ideas for how such an arc should be carried out and where it should lead the character in question, with insufficient communication between the writers to reach a common consensus.
Bubblegum innocent
>it's a "Finncel has no father figure in his life and grows up socially stunted and maladjusted" episode
Hate these reruns
Kid’s shows should stop trying to be deep deconstructions of fantasy where everyone is actually mentally ill and abusive.
why her?