>You told me Vader killed my father!
>Well you see Luke, from a certain point of view...
You all give Disney shit for retconning but even back in 1980 this was a big fat fucking cope
>You told me Vader killed my father! >Well you see Luke, from a certain point of view...
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literally doesn't contradict anything in the previous movies
>He betrayed and murdered your father.
Which is what happened. Vader killed Anakin.
no Obi-wan killed Anakin and The emperor made Darth Vader. At least from a certain point of view....the correct point of view.
Anakin died the second he cut Windu's arm off, he was already Darth Vader at Mustafar.
>Anakin died the second he cut Windu's arm off
i can sense you're very deeply invested in star wars as mythology. So I am not going to laugh at you....but
>you're very deeply invested in star wars as mythology
Bro Palpatine straight up names him Vader at that point before the slaughtering of younglings and trip to Mustafar, it's not rocket science.
sorry bro, if I affect an air of indifference in a thread I chose to enter and participate in, your post becomes invalid.
Nothin' personnel kid
>it's not rocket science.
from a certain point of view, it is rocket science.
>a character lying is a retcon
How is it not?
>lol actually that didn't happen i just made it up lmao
Do you even know what a retcon is?
>(in a film, television series, or other fictional work) a piece of new information that imposes a different interpretation on previously described events, typically used to facilitate a dramatic plot shift or account for an inconsistency.
So any plot twist is a retcon?
When Vader was never meant to be Luke's father when Lucas wrote ANH, yes.
How dumb are you? That just makes obi a liar. It does not change anything in the past story.
it's okay to retcon if it leads to good shit.
Correct
ROTJ was shit tho.
No. No it wasn’t
Everything after Jabba's palace is garbage
The biggest brainlet post in the history of this shitty site
The throne room is the pinnacle of star wars that has never been, and now will never will be, topped.
THIS
H
I
S
you're shit
you're garbage
It is, de facto, the heart of Star Wars. Anybody who claims it's Empire is a fucking brainlet.
Empire is a great movie all the way through. ROTJ has all kinds of stupid wacky shitty scenes with the Ewoks and the rebel alliance aliens that is all just a precursor to Lucas going crazy with that type of shit in Episode 1
Empire has no profound message, the OT has thanks to ROTJ. Your criticism is surface level, which is why you, as predicted, turn out to be a brainlet.
It's the middle movie in what was by that point a planned trilogy, obviously the overarching motifs established in 4 and 5 have to come to a conclusion in 6. What would even be the point of a 3rd movie if the story's message is concluded in 5? This isn't an argument why one film is better than another, this is you expressing your misunderstanding of how narratives work.
Sure but you'd need an entire other movie at least to showcase their growing bond in between AOTC and ROTS, which is something they reference quite a bit in ROTS.
No, I understand perfectly. I am saying that without the profound message in ROTJ, ESB would be shallow entertainment only. ROTJ could have been without any deeper message, like SW and ESB but it wasn't. It's ROTJ that gives the OT meaning and that's why it's best. It elevates the OT from mere spectacle to something profound, to something timeless.
You could levy the same criticism against ROTJ, without the buildup of the first 2 the 3rd is not profound at all. You're taking a praise of the entire series and attributing it solely to a single movie within that series. If you're comparing the two individual movies, which is what we're doing, Empire is the superior movie. Scene-by-scene it is basically flawless. Even the classic Lucas silly alien moments with Yoda are an important part of the plot. You can't say the same thing about ROTJ, there are plenty of moments in it where it's just crap portending Lucas's later style.
>You could levy the same criticism against ROTJ, without the buildup of the first 2 the 3rd is not profound at all.
This isn't true all but never mind.
>If you're comparing the two individual movies, which is what we're doing, Empire is the superior movie. Scene-by-scene it is basically flawless.
You're still surface-level. It's ROTJ that elevates the OT from being a more sophisticated Buck Rogers or Battlestar Galactica. It didn't have to end the way it did, it could have been as entertaining as ESB but meaningless and by being so, it would have dragged down the trilogy. Going beyond that, having an actual message, no having a timeless message to deliver, that's one for the ages.
You keep using the term "surface-level" yet you're the blathering, stubborn retard sitting here pretending that the overarching themes of the entire trilogy are solely attributable to one of the movies in that trilogy. And I say pretending because even you know you're wrong, which is why when I pointed this out all you can say is "DURR NEVER MIND THAT YOU'RE RIGHT" and went back to repeating the same wrong shit that I already addressed.
>the entire message of all 3 of these movies is superior to just one of said movies
is an intensely retarded argument to try to be making, but I think you know that.
no, you just need to understand it was all a ploy to trap Luke friends to make he turn to the dark side. It was just a little bit convoluted.
This
Plus frequency matters, too. Careless disregard for everything vs a select few things.
>come to think of it I actually fought your father three times
>and he was a good friend
actually this is the bigger one for me, relative to the new movies.
I think the original retcon (where obiwan lies about his father being dead) kind of makes sense for the character. the events that lead to vader being vader are pretty horrible for all involved and glossing over that for the benefit of a kid who isn't ready to hear it makes a certain kind of sense.
but during the first SW at that early bit obiwan also describes anakin and their relationship in some detail, and it's nothing like the version we got in the prequels (or presumably the new show).
>but during the first SW at that early bit obiwan also describes anakin and their relationship in some detail, and it's nothing like the version we got in the prequels
What are you talking about?
>He was the best star pilot in the galaxy
True and real
>and a cunning warrior
He was shown to be pretty good at coming up with stuff on the fly tactically.
>and he was a good friend
The delivery here is more important than the line itself, Obi-Wan was getting very emotional here. The two were like brothers in the PT, even if the relationship was rocky at points.
>He was the best star pilot in the galaxy
>True and real
based on what? he's a capable pilot, we know, but "best ever" isn't supported by anything
>and a cunning warrior
>he was shown to be pretty good at coming up with stuff on the fly
like what? he either does what he's told / supposed to or he does evil, stupid shit. those are his two modes in the prequels. obedient and kinda dense for the first two, or evil and kinda dense for most of the third.
>and he was a good friend
>The two were like brothers in the PT
again, there's literally no point where they're "like brothers" or even really peers. that's your fanfic. he goes straight from being obiwan's student to being an asshole. if obiwan was going to remember any version of him fondly, it would be the younger more innocent version - as a kid he failed, basically. not as a "good friend". because anakin wasn't that at any point. anakin and obiwan have less development as bros than fucking biggs and wedge. if anything his turn was just doubling down on the fact that he'd been a self-interested douche from the start.
>again, there's literally no point where they're "like brothers" or even really peers. that's your fanfic
bro he literally tells anakin he considered him a brother on mustafar
Ideally, that is shown and not told
Watch the show. They develop the relationship and the tactician parts pretty well. Not to mention in episode one (of the trilogy, not the show) he's shown to be an extremely gifted pilot at 10. Your complaints are not valid.
>Best star pilot
We see multiple times from kid to cyborg adult that he is an incredible pilot. He wins the podrace as a child, catches the bounty hunter in the speeder chase, saves himself and Obi-wan from the buzz droids, lands half a separatist capital ship and basically stomps the rebels at the death star not to mention the shit in clone wars and rebels.
>cunning warrior
In combat, Anakin was clearly swinging above his paygrade in AOTC and in ROTS he was one of the best duelists in the jedi order. being good or evil has nothing to do with this conversation.
>Brothers
"You were my brother Anakin, i loved you." Did you even watch the movies?
>but during the first SW at that early bit obiwan also describes anakin and their relationship in some detail, and it's nothing like the version we got in the prequels
Why do you assume everything Obi Wan says must be 100% true, when we already know he lies about the past in the OT too?
Obiwan just lies. He and Yoda also lie when they say he'll destroy everything his friends fought for if he goes to Bespin. They're fucking idiots. That's why they ended up living in tiny huts on backwater planets.
They knew full well what Vader was going to do after confronting Luke in that situation, reveal the truth and pitch him the idea of ruling the Galaxy together. Obviously they didn't have enough faith in him to resist, which effectively sets up them also being wrong in the next movie regarding the possibility of Anakin being redeemed.
this. its the equivalent of taking advice from /r9k/ shut-ins word for word. Obi and Yoda are both clueless virgins.
that’s the point. they both want vader dead because they’re shit jedi living in fear and letting it control them (like sith). luke chooses forgiveness and the power of love instead and it works.
No, you're right OP. the only reason why they're okay with it is because they're autistic and choose to white knight Lucas' retconning bullshit out of spite. Contrarianism is a cancer. It's okay to admit that it's all shit and Lucas is guilty of the same shit because he is.
That "retcon" by good fortune actually lends context to stuff from the first film, namely Owen being afraid of Luke having too much of his father in him. Of course Disney seem to have retconned even that now
Leia was the true reedemer of the light, not Luke. Then Disney created analog of Leia, Rey Palpatine to finish the Skywalker Saga. It all makes sense if you think about it.
Lol I never finished the sequel trilogy. Is that British slag really palpy's daughter or granddaughter or something?
Nobody cares about Rey. She may as well be Palpatine’s masseuse
None of that is canon, just ignore it like everybody else.
Yes, they unironically stole a plotline from the fucking Jedi Prince books.
And it ends with Rey declaring herself a skywalker
They even fucked that up, it would've felt far more poignant had she called herself Rey Solo. Not only did she have the surrogate father shtick with Han in TFA, the Solo movie also established that surname denotes someone alone, without family. As retarded as her fighting weapon being a stick yet not being given a dual bladed lightsaber.
>Leia
Lol
Luke redeemed Vader when Leia, Obi Wan, Yoda all told him it couldn’t be done. The whole world loves Leia - but mark my words the second you fuckers try to pit Leia against Luke, it won’t hurt Luke. It’ll hurt Leia, and you. Haven’t you learned you lesson with Rey yet?
>retcon to explain one of the greatest twists in movie history
vs
>retcon to shovel forgettable cash-in slop into your Disney+Hole
just stuff it in my fat worn out Disney hole daddy
>guy is called "dark father"
>him being the protagonist's father is "one of the greatest twists in movie history"
Damn movies suck I guess.
>one retcon happens in the second movie three years after the first one, this new one happened 45 years later after 9 main movies and several shows
It’s not even a retcon. His name is literally Vader (father)
Obi-wan protected luke with typical monk gobbledymoron
It's a retcon.
That movie didn’t come out in 1980
>defending Disney
but why
>when I left you I was tossing you around in fire now I am the master
>you see luke you have a twin sister who was also Dather vaders child and He is your father, or was he was my padwan anankin and I Half killed him and left him to burn alive on a fire planet and then I fought him several times after and recused your sister and killed the inquisitors...all while you were farming for the past 10 years. ....and he was a good friend.
>Obi wan you once served my father in the clone wars, and also remember that time when we went on off world adventures when I was a kid and you saved my life? Help me Obiwan you’re my only hope
>also when you die I’ll act like I don’t know you cause the guy I kinda have a crush on is closer to you I’ll let him mourn
>actually luke your father was a dick if I'm being honest.
It actually was true from a certain point of view. And Obi Wan was trying to protect Luke. Luke and Leia were literally the rebellion/ Jedi’s secret weapons and the last thing you want to do is tell some ambitious teenage farmboy that his father is the most powerful man in the galaxy. Luke may have sought him out immediately….and then the galaxy would have been totally screwed
Obi Wan was playing chess.
>Obi Wan was playing chess.
obi wan? Now that s name I haven't heard in about 10 years
Obi-wan? Now, that's a name I haven't heard in about 5 months or so since our last duel with Anakin
kek
>according to Obi-wan, who wants Luke to kill Vader and Palps
He's not exactly an unbiased source
Shit like this, or the deflecting to the PT and EU, never ceases to be so pathetically hilarious.
>YEAH WE THINK THE SERIES WAS FULL OF FUCK UPS BEFORE WE CAME ALONG, SO WE DECIDED TO EMULATE EACH AND EVERY ONE OF THEM
>HAH, WHAT NOW, CHUD?!?!
Do you retards not read what you write?
You're are, without a trace of irony, claiming that fucking up is ok because previous fuck ups you could have learned from (but didn't) exist.
How fucking stupid could you possibly get?
The best this line will ever go for you is the premise being rejected from the outset.
>Luke, I mutilated your father and watched as he burned alive and left him for dead....and he was a good friend.
>your father wanted you to have this lightsaber from a certain point of view
>but I actually looted it while he was burning alive
>Luke……I castrated your father and watched on as his extremities turned to ash and then I left with his wife - your mother - in her ship and then we went back to her place. He was a very good friend
Would it be better to have your penis burned off entirely, or just burned to the point where its still there but you can never do anything with it again without there being a lot of pain?
C-c-cute burnt Lord Vader-kun!
>*She was a VERY good friend
>but on the bright side, he absolutely fell in love with the area and decided to build his castle there
>AHHHHHHHHHHH, I HATE YOU, GIVEMYSONTHISLIGHTSABER AHHHHHHHHHH
>OH GOD IT BURNS! IT BURNS ALMOST AS MUCH AS MY LONGING FOR PRIME REAL ESTATE AHHHHHHHHHHHHH
it's a retcon, but not a plothole or continuity error like the disney shit
I've never liked that scene much. Instead of using it as an opportunity to explore Obi-Wan's motivations and history it's just the script self-consciously trying to justify its own story. Obi-Wan's dialogue just never felt natural to me.
>Luke, your father was a child murdering psychopath, I should have finished him off when I had the chance. And you, you have to stop him. And he was a good friend.
Based subliminal chuck poster
Obi-wan is explicitly a lying and manipulative asshole
At least in Empire Strikes Back Vader's reveal was at the end of the film and didn't hurt the forward moving momentum that the film has. Return of the the jedi, through now, made the first two films non-canon.
>Luke I regret training your father because I made so many mistakes and He ended up killing a lot of women and children. I mean, not just Jedi but sand people as well. ....And he was a good freind
>leftist humor
Episode 1 is the best film. Fuck you
>"I haven't gone by the name Obi-Wan since before you were born"
What did the man still being called Obi-Wan when Luke is 10 mean by this?
vader is not anakin to obiwan its that simple, even said darth killed him
>watching star wars 20 years after the prequels
You deserve the pain, nerds
There aren't enough morons in the world to be shoven down this shit franchise
And RotJ was seen as the weakest of the three films for that reason.
>you lied to me, you told me Vader killed my father
>would you rather I told you that your father turned to the dark side, slaughtered thousands, including women, children and was responsible for your own mothers death? Did you want to automatically find out your dad was responsible for the rise of the empire and the emperor?
Yes, he just tried to kill me on multiple occasions.... a great friend.....
>Luke did I ever tell you about Count Dooku?
>You see, Count Dooku was a Jedi that uncovered a Sith conspiracy to take over the Old Republic so he covertly ordered a clone army under guise of then deceased Jedi Master Syfo Dias because the evil Sith Lord Darth Sidious wanted to bring the surprise evil army back to the Republic so he could use it for evil purposes but I luckily I found the evil army first so logically I decided to bring the evil army back to the Republic myself, then immediately afterward Count Dooku saved me from being killed and told how Darth Sidious planned to use the evil army for evil and offered to help me stop the evil but I told him to eat shit because reasons, then let your Father cut of Dooku's head because I had trained him very poorly, before soullessly using your mother to find your Father so that I could cut off his arms and legs and leave him to burn to death an an abandoned lava planet and finally separating you from your twin and hiding you from your own biological family because because you Father and I had a political disagreement about the meaning of the word treason which was only made possible because I refuse to listen to anybody around me -- including my old master -- and deliberately enabled the plot of the mustache twirling villain to ever exist.
>he as a good friend
Dukoo should not have been a sith. He should have been some kind of rogue, ex Jedi, trying to pursue the mission of preservating the Republic on his own, unrestrained by the sclerotic Jedi order.
They had to add Count Dooku when they decided to abandon Darth Jar Jar.
Even in the OT it was pretty obvious Obiwan was just trying to manipulate Luke into doing whatever he wanted at the moment and figured he was too dumb to catch on
>figured he was too dumb to catch on
It's a little more devious than that.
Obi Wan made sure Luke was raised in absolute ignorance of everything happening around him and everything that had happened in the past. He then used Luke to try to kill Luke's own fucking Dad without giving Luke a heads up or a choice.
Empire is Anakin trying to break through all of that weird pedo conditioning.
Was it really his turn to tell him Vader is his father at ANY point during Star Wars 77? He couldn't have known that Owen and Beru were about dead at that point in time.
>time to go on an adventure, Luke, just like your father!
>by the way, he casually butchered children in cold blood. I watched the sick son of a bitch do it with my own eyes.
>since then he's been the right hand man of the worst tyrant the galaxy has ever seen
>he's caused endless misery in every misbegotten year he's been in power, personally slaughtering thousands, being responsible for the deaths of millions, and his every action causing the untold suffering of countless more that he couldn't even begin to conceptualize
>and it's a good thing he can't, because that's the sort of shit he gets off to nowadays, since the last time we met I hacked all his remaining limbs off and set his dick on fire.
>I really ought to just lie about this to soften the blow, but nowadays casually destroying the spirits of young boys is quite literally the only way I can get an erection.
>I'm only in my fifties, but sand does things to a man, Luke. I'd say ask your father, but the sick son of a bitch would probably rip your trachea out if you got within a hundred metres of him
>and he was a good friend.
It's impressive how Lucas managed to retroactively convince a large part of the population that he had everything planned all along, going as far as renaming the first movie and adding episode numbers in the 90s (which is now how everyone adresses them) to make it look like he had always planned on making a franchise all along.
>(which is now how everyone adresses them)
Ahem:
Not everyone.
You lads are few and far between, and if you talk about "Star Wars" to someone it's unlikely they'll jump to the conclusion you're talking about the 1st movie in the series m
Well, fuck'em.
Lucas is a very unreliable narrator
>it's impressive that people use the names for the movies that the creator gave them
*changed
The name he gave them are Star Wars, The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi. No new hope, no episode numbers.
If Robert Zemeckis decides tomorrow that the first Back to the Future movie is actually called Forward to the Past I'm not going to pretend it was always his intention.
Other than being needlessly contrarian what purpose is their to argue with the creator of Star Wars about what Star Wars is?
I don't like historical revisionism. Lucas also thinks Han shot second so he clearly doesn't understand Star Wars.
> Lucas also thinks Han shot second so he clearly doesn't understand Star Wars.
Yeah you, random internet shitposter, clearly know more about Star Wars than the guy who dedicated his life to making those movies.
Yes, I do, which is why you have no arguments besides a pathetic appeal to authority and ad hominem. Lucas is notorious for not remembering shit from the movies too.
What 'arguments' have you put forward?
He's not wrong. I say the same about my former best friend, "Trump betrayed and murdered him"
it was kind of completely out of character for vader to kill innocents. fuck the new show
What? How? He kills innocents all the time.
rebel scum aren't innocents. there's no way vader, who experienced the pain of his own mother, would just kill that kid for no reason in front of his family. out of character, not canon
Yeah I'm sure there were no civilians on Alderaan. And those Jedi pupils? Clearly not innocent.
Anakin insisted on interrogation to find the rebel bases instead of blowing up planets, but he didn't count on/know that Leia was force sensitive and had enough latent power to resist him. Tarkin blew up Alderaan because he got impatient and because the military arm of the Empire was trying to flex. It wasn't Vader.
yo fuck that bro
It was supposed to convey that Vader had become an ultra-powerful
>ends justify the means
kind of evil. Still doesn't mean he killed innocents. Those little hitler-youth gays had uniforms, lightsabers, and force training.
Go talk to some french folks about whether there was an age cutoff on returning fire against child soldiers in Africa and get back to me.
Vader was reasonably justified all along until Luke came along and made him wrong by choosing love over fear. Luke did what nobody in Anakin's life since Qui Gon had been able to do, and that's the entire point of Episode 6 -- it goes right over people's fucking heads.
>What? How? He kills innocents all the time.
Not the same guy... but what innocents did he kill ever in any of the mainline star wars films?
>sand people
killed his mom
>younglings
They were Jedi, and Jedi were objectively treasonous enemies of the state. Jedi's fault for training child soldiers.
>rebels and rebel sympathizers
...they're fucking rebels mate. Not innocent.
that chunky officer with the mustache dindu nuffin
I don't think you understood what the youngling Massacre scene was supposed to convey.
nah. it was the only way obi-wan and yoda felt that they can destroy vader by telling luke that lie. it wasn't retconning, it was amazing storytelling, something that disney or even lucas with the prequels is/was incapable of
Luke's confrontation with the emperor is fucking great. It's purely the middle of the movie that's a drag, and even then the fight between stormtroopers, ewoks and rebels is pretty cool.
whoa, almost like Lucas is a hack or something
>hype up hayden being in it
>he’s just for cuck scenes in the bacta tank