There is literally no way of knowing with confidence if the universe is deterministic from a human perspective but promising evidence to suggest it isn't.
The universe has to be deterministic, because each action, and I mean this not on the human level but on the physics, molecules, energy, etc levels, can have only one outcome (dependent on all the previous actions and outcomes in the chain), or causality means nothing and the universe would be unable to exist in the form it does.
People will try to weasel around this by invoking "quantum" bullshit, but all that means is that we are unable, mentally and logistically, to detect, understand, and process all the factors in the huge equation that is existence. If we had access to all the pertinent past information, and a device capable of processing it accurately, we could predict the future about anything with 100% accuracy.
In fact the only alternative to hard determinism is Simulation theory, in that this universe IS "The Device".
What if YISUN changes their mind. Everything in existence is frozen and predetermined, a product of the mind and will of YISUN and their holy suicide. Change may yet come if the supreme being just decides to do rearrange things.
Being dead didn't stop a Royal mortal like Zoss, let alone YISUN herself from bumming around his speaking house and showing Aesma part of the wheel to calm her breasts already
She does, she knows everything, even how to defeat Jagganoth. But being a fictional character is something that has no relevance to the story. It's a drop in the bucket compared to the nihilism she experiences because of her omniscience.
i've been thinking this since I first saw this page posted by somebody last time, but the smugness when Jadis says "nothing" is really funny to me. Since the alt text is nothing repeated 20 times she's probably about to demonstrate in a spooktacular magic show
Not necessarily. Hansa was Royalty and he was wise and smart, but you have to be based and not a tryhard.
===
Suppose YISUN microwaved a burrito so hot that no one, not even they could eat it.
Aesma, hungover, would bite the burrito and scald her tongue. In anger she'd blow on the burrito to cool it down, but it'd do naught to stifle the radiant heat. And as she tried again, and again, and again, her desire would become more and more solidified first by growing hunger and then by sheer spite. At last, she'd just swallow the whole damn thing past her now literal blackened tongue, unleash a mighty belch and proceed about her daily routine of being the universe's greatest Frickup.
Hansa would nod at YISUN's explanation. Then the next day, also hungover, Hansa would eye the burrito, remember YISUN's words, think "I am feeling a mite peckish though", shrug and take a bite.
Someone not quite to Royalty (Jagg) would conduct two centuries of unceasing research, venture to the ends of the void to pluck the Absolute Zero Heart of the Seventh And Grandest Cryophoenix, study the Heavenly Breath technique for two more centuries, blow upon the Cryophoenix... Heart with the styles' ultimate 23rd Harmonic Great Gale technique upon the burrito (plunging 500 worlds into an ice age in the process)... and scald their tongue on the first bite.
-
Smarts get you in trouble when you start thinking peasant shit like "If only if I had the heart of the cryophoenix" and "I don't want a burrito that badly, I should probably stop before my tongue burns off". Even a normal dumbass hears YISUN's pronouncement and doesn't try. You can overcome this, but it's another obstacle on the path to Royalty that a royally stupid frickup like Aesma sidesteps entirely.
I thought they needed mortals to be bound to lesser masks/names (or any mask at all), but that different circumstances could make them shed it.
I like that the little vapor trail implies that the move requires him to wave his arm around like an idiot instead of doing this cool direct strike.
>no one wanted to learn ki rata, because despite being really powerful it just looks super gay
You're right. He's waving his pinkie around while dressed in purple Greek clothes and surrounded by subservient buff men. Solomon's power is that he transcends "no homo".
>Devils can advance by making deals, and need to make deals or consume flesh to survive, but they are absolutely capable of growing in rank and color by their own. It’s rare but possible. It happens when devils gain a greater understanding of themselves, and it’s the only way that ebon devils come about. That’s why ebons are so rare.
>Devils and angels are sort of extended metaphors for identity I guess, this whole arcane system isn’t really that important to know.
This kind of worldview makes no sense to me. If determinism is true, and Jadis can perceive the totality of it, what motivates her actions? Like, she knows that she was going to say "nothing" in response to Allison's inquiry, because it was fated to be so. That means she has no ability to say anything else, even though there is practically nothing preventing her from doing so, which seems illogical. It seems like, if determinism is true, then predetermined events cannot logically be known, because the mere act of knowing them changes them.
That doesn’t actually answer anything, and is the problem when authors try to include this shit. If everything is predetermined then it kills tension because either well it doesn’t matter what the hero/bbeg wants, fate already Decided it, or the absolutely played out “the hero say frick fate and does whatever”. It’s just a shitty hole they dig themselves into with obvious ways they’ll dig themselves out.
It's the same in the real world and I don't see you complaining about lack of suspense.
All physical processes are deterministic and could be predicted (assuming you had complete knowledge of the world at any given moment, and sufficient computing power). This means that whatever you did or will do is a simple mathematical consequence of the state of atoms when the world was created, and the laws of physics. This doesn't really change anything.
Jadis spends most of her time in an icecube trying not to go insane.
She's fully aware of the futility of her actions in doing so.
Now that a new King has shown up, its time to break the ice and talk them up a bit.
That doesn’t actually answer anything, and is the problem when authors try to include this shit. If everything is predetermined then it kills tension because either well it doesn’t matter what the hero/bbeg wants, fate already Decided it, or the absolutely played out “the hero say frick fate and does whatever”. It’s just a shitty hole they dig themselves into with obvious ways they’ll dig themselves out.
How does she know her perception of reality isn't changing as reality does? Zoss and Jagganoth have knowledge of overwritten timelines, it doesn't seem as though Jadis shares that level of omniscience.
Jadis might be trapped herself, but given everything else in the story she mostly seems trapped by everyone else's decisions. Seeing the wheel broke only her agency not everyone's.
Zoss and Jagganoth still perceive their own life in terms of a single timeline that changes around them or that they change or reset. Jadis seems like she perceives all possible timelines at once or, with no particular center or self or whatever doing the perceiving. Like this Jadis talking to Allison isn't the core Jadis, but just one of countless versions across however many timelines doing every possible thing in every variation. And her knowledge extends out to every other person too, in every timeline. It's too alien a perspective to even depict that point of view, so I think all the comic can or will show is this one timeline's Jadis that can talk about things she knows from other possiblites, but that's a like the barest sliver of what she is.
>Character represents the sin of sloth >Her entire aesthetic is built around being motionless and stagnant >"WTF bros why doesn't she just break causality and rewrite the timeline?"
Why are you like this?
Total honesty, anon: I didn't know that. I am a secondary that hasn't fully read the series. I just read this panel, got confused, and posted hoping to be spoonfed an answer. That's why I'm like this. So don't take it as being a problem with the fanbase. The character being a representation of sloth is thematically interesting though. Is the comic actually worth getting into at this point, or is it an abusive relationship like Bittersweet Candy Bowl?
>Is the comic actually worth getting into at this point
That depends, do you like mystic kung fu bullshit? This being a thread about the comic any opinion you get is likely to be positive, but it's one of the best comics active right now. And some of the supplementary material like the Tale of the Silver Prince is better than a lot of the comic
As someone who read through the whole thing in the past week. It's worth it. There's some tumblr tier elements, but its like 5% of the story. Most of it is pretty great world building, fantastic art, and lots of different characters with compelling motives.
Honestly the hardest part of the story to get through is the very start, because the MC is thrown into this world in the first ten pages with no info. It's overwhelming on purpose and the first book is basically the MC getting dragged around and expositioned at. She comes into her own as a character in the second book.
And as the other anons pointed out the supplementary stories are worthwhile, it can feel like it breaks the flow of the comic but the lore added with each page really make the world immersive without creating too much of an interlude to the main story. It's one of the few things where being a webcomic adds to it over being a graphic novel.
>predetermined events cannot logically be known, because the mere act of knowing them changes them.
It's according to Keikakku* - knowing them was actually part of the plan. Think about the cinema projectionist: he can see the Movie as a reel of small sequences rather than a story with a beginning and an end - events are seperate and akin to small pieces of frozen time - yesterday is just as frozen as tomorrow, it's like tomorrow already happen. Jadis saw the story from the point of view of the cinema projectionnist but she's not out of the Movie, just seeing herself seeing the reel from the "credit" till "the end". It doesn't change the movie but is probably a cause of headache. Sloth for Jadis seems to be accepting this fact that the Movie is done because she see the Movie completed when a Royal projectionnist would take scissors and cut the scenes to his liking, adding 1 subliminal image of sexy Gog Agog in the middle of 24 images of Solomon. Laughing in the face of God.
Don't burn your brain over it. Just take the story as is for now and wait to see what Abbs actually does with it. If the story wraps up satisfyingly, great. If not, we all wasted years waiting for updates. Trying to cope one way or another won't change that now.
Frankly, it's never going to make sense because our reality is simply not deterministic in the fashion Jadis is insisting on. From our POV, there's no way anything they're saying can work. However, they are comic characters in a story. The story's rules can be whatever they want. Even if we have no frame of reference to say how it should work.
You can guess if we're awaiting some bigger secret that makes it all more sensible, but understand you're burning effort on an activity that will not change the outcome nor bring it faster. Not even if you guess right. If you're cool with that, go ahead. You can also just wait and save your strength for other things. Each choice is open. Each choice is yours to make.
The conclusion of the comic won't change, but how you experience it certainly will. For example, thinking you can change Abb's comic to your liking will probably result in you being unhappy with the comic no matter what the story does from here. Or you can make it to the end happy and whole if you play your cards right.
Yes, I understand the inherent humor in writing a post that serves as an example of free will in a deterministic system and only realizing that in the middle of writing it.
>I'll just change the future! >w-wait, I already knew I would try to change it but couldn't, because I already knew I wouldn't actually try because of what I'm about to think... >layers and layers paralyzing back and forth because your will is just part of the same deterministic machine the universe is shaped by until you reach equilibrium
Obviously a single mind couldn't hold the entire scope of the universe while also being part of it... but if it could and was also bound within the universe, such a mind would be doomed follow along as if scripted, stuck on tracks wheeled along by fate
>if determinism is true, then predetermined events cannot logically be known, because the mere act of knowing them changes them.
Except that Jadis knowing them is part of the predetermination. She isn't a character any longer, she has no free will. She's basically an object
Don't burn your brain over it. Just take the story as is for now and wait to see what Abbs actually does with it. If the story wraps up satisfyingly, great. If not, we all wasted years waiting for updates. Trying to cope one way or another won't change that now.
Frankly, it's never going to make sense because our reality is simply not deterministic in the fashion Jadis is insisting on. From our POV, there's no way anything they're saying can work. However, they are comic characters in a story. The story's rules can be whatever they want. Even if we have no frame of reference to say how it should work.
You can guess if we're awaiting some bigger secret that makes it all more sensible, but understand you're burning effort on an activity that will not change the outcome nor bring it faster. Not even if you guess right. If you're cool with that, go ahead. You can also just wait and save your strength for other things. Each choice is open. Each choice is yours to make.
The conclusion of the comic won't change, but how you experience it certainly will. For example, thinking you can change Abb's comic to your liking will probably result in you being unhappy with the comic no matter what the story does from here. Or you can make it to the end happy and whole if you play your cards right.
Yes, I understand the inherent humor in writing a post that serves as an example of free will in a deterministic system and only realizing that in the middle of writing it.
God dammit why do I love unsettling smug hags so much AAAAAAAAAA.
Memeable
You're never going to get on the path of Royalty with that attitude Jadis.
She's right, you know.
At least she knows fate is not a thing to be afraid it, unlike half of this fricking board.
Not afraid instead she just whines about how helpless and pathetic she is. Boo fricking hoo. Absolute peasant behavior.
Fate is a spook
There is literally no way of knowing with confidence if the universe is deterministic from a human perspective but promising evidence to suggest it isn't.
The universe has to be deterministic, because each action, and I mean this not on the human level but on the physics, molecules, energy, etc levels, can have only one outcome (dependent on all the previous actions and outcomes in the chain), or causality means nothing and the universe would be unable to exist in the form it does.
People will try to weasel around this by invoking "quantum" bullshit, but all that means is that we are unable, mentally and logistically, to detect, understand, and process all the factors in the huge equation that is existence. If we had access to all the pertinent past information, and a device capable of processing it accurately, we could predict the future about anything with 100% accuracy.
In fact the only alternative to hard determinism is Simulation theory, in that this universe IS "The Device".
Please, just a crumb of Patreon page.
There isn't one this time
Now do you see the foolishness of your desires?
There's no Patreon page this time. nothing next week since he's going to a wedding, and the weeks after will just have the Patreon page a day early.
>Then what's the point in anything?
>CBT
Waiting for patreanon.
i don't think anyone remembers that meme but i keked
>Whats the point in anything?
>Nothing.
Alright, its time to flip the wheel if nothing matters anyway.
At this point I'm just seeing Jadis hanging out with the Nihikists from Big Lebowski.
>Say what you want about the Belligerent Knights, Dude, but at least it's an ethos.
>This isn't the Universal War, this is the Pact of the Seven Part World. There are rules.
I like that the little vapor trail implies that the move requires him to wave his arm around like an idiot instead of doing this cool direct strike.
>no one wanted to learn ki rata, because despite being really powerful it just looks super gay
>lmao nothing matters broooo
Nihilists should be first against the wall, frick Jadis
What if YISUN changes their mind. Everything in existence is frozen and predetermined, a product of the mind and will of YISUN and their holy suicide. Change may yet come if the supreme being just decides to do rearrange things.
He's literally dead. And no, he can't change his mind, that would contradict Jadis omniscience.
Being dead didn't stop a Royal mortal like Zoss, let alone YISUN herself from bumming around his speaking house and showing Aesma part of the wheel to calm her breasts already
You could argue the entire plot of the comic is YISUN changing their mind.
so does jadis know she's a comic character
A comic character or any meta character would have fun with it
Jadis isn't that
would make little difference in her worldview.
please no, i'm tired of that meta bullshit
>And you, reading this: your IP is...
The shape of the universe is a piece of paper on its face.
She does, she knows everything, even how to defeat Jagganoth. But being a fictional character is something that has no relevance to the story. It's a drop in the bucket compared to the nihilism she experiences because of her omniscience.
i've been thinking this since I first saw this page posted by somebody last time, but the smugness when Jadis says "nothing" is really funny to me. Since the alt text is nothing repeated 20 times she's probably about to demonstrate in a spooktacular magic show
Not necessarily. Hansa was Royalty and he was wise and smart, but you have to be based and not a tryhard.
===
Suppose YISUN microwaved a burrito so hot that no one, not even they could eat it.
Aesma, hungover, would bite the burrito and scald her tongue. In anger she'd blow on the burrito to cool it down, but it'd do naught to stifle the radiant heat. And as she tried again, and again, and again, her desire would become more and more solidified first by growing hunger and then by sheer spite. At last, she'd just swallow the whole damn thing past her now literal blackened tongue, unleash a mighty belch and proceed about her daily routine of being the universe's greatest Frickup.
Hansa would nod at YISUN's explanation. Then the next day, also hungover, Hansa would eye the burrito, remember YISUN's words, think "I am feeling a mite peckish though", shrug and take a bite.
Someone not quite to Royalty (Jagg) would conduct two centuries of unceasing research, venture to the ends of the void to pluck the Absolute Zero Heart of the Seventh And Grandest Cryophoenix, study the Heavenly Breath technique for two more centuries, blow upon the Cryophoenix... Heart with the styles' ultimate 23rd Harmonic Great Gale technique upon the burrito (plunging 500 worlds into an ice age in the process)... and scald their tongue on the first bite.
-
Smarts get you in trouble when you start thinking peasant shit like "If only if I had the heart of the cryophoenix" and "I don't want a burrito that badly, I should probably stop before my tongue burns off". Even a normal dumbass hears YISUN's pronouncement and doesn't try. You can overcome this, but it's another obstacle on the path to Royalty that a royally stupid frickup like Aesma sidesteps entirely.
I just recently read the whole comic. One question.
Why did princess spontaneously change into a Red devil during the vault fight? I thought devils had to make contracts to peel off names or something.
I thought they needed mortals to be bound to lesser masks/names (or any mask at all), but that different circumstances could make them shed it.
You're right. He's waving his pinkie around while dressed in purple Greek clothes and surrounded by subservient buff men. Solomon's power is that he transcends "no homo".
>Solomon's power is that he transcends "no homo".
He's represented by Pride so it checks out.
The whole apocalypse could have been avoided if he just became his true self and bottomed for Jaggy.
https://killsixbilliondemons.tumblr.com/post/168015216940/how-can-princess-transform-here-i-thought-devils
>Devils can advance by making deals, and need to make deals or consume flesh to survive, but they are absolutely capable of growing in rank and color by their own. It’s rare but possible. It happens when devils gain a greater understanding of themselves, and it’s the only way that ebon devils come about. That’s why ebons are so rare.
>Devils and angels are sort of extended metaphors for identity I guess, this whole arcane system isn’t really that important to know.
>mantle the raw limitless power of true creation
>lmao determinism
A regally garbed peasant. Sad! Many such cases.
>Jadis talks about the unreality of “sin” while gradually undressing.
Nothing? Nothing?
Nothing?
NOTHING, TRA-LA-LA?
Dammit Bowie is so hot.
was
He's not dead he's just moved to another plane of existence.
But we use the past tense when someone goes there.
Not for Bowie.
BOWIE LIVES
Skeletons are pretty good looking.
So is royalty actually just moronic?
Ignorance is bliss.
This kind of worldview makes no sense to me. If determinism is true, and Jadis can perceive the totality of it, what motivates her actions? Like, she knows that she was going to say "nothing" in response to Allison's inquiry, because it was fated to be so. That means she has no ability to say anything else, even though there is practically nothing preventing her from doing so, which seems illogical. It seems like, if determinism is true, then predetermined events cannot logically be known, because the mere act of knowing them changes them.
Something Something Metatron's master scheme something something
That doesn’t actually answer anything, and is the problem when authors try to include this shit. If everything is predetermined then it kills tension because either well it doesn’t matter what the hero/bbeg wants, fate already Decided it, or the absolutely played out “the hero say frick fate and does whatever”. It’s just a shitty hole they dig themselves into with obvious ways they’ll dig themselves out.
It's the same in the real world and I don't see you complaining about lack of suspense.
All physical processes are deterministic and could be predicted (assuming you had complete knowledge of the world at any given moment, and sufficient computing power). This means that whatever you did or will do is a simple mathematical consequence of the state of atoms when the world was created, and the laws of physics. This doesn't really change anything.
Stop worrying about fate too much and get royal
Jadis spends most of her time in an icecube trying not to go insane.
She's fully aware of the futility of her actions in doing so.
Now that a new King has shown up, its time to break the ice and talk them up a bit.
How does she know her perception of reality isn't changing as reality does? Zoss and Jagganoth have knowledge of overwritten timelines, it doesn't seem as though Jadis shares that level of omniscience.
Jadis might be trapped herself, but given everything else in the story she mostly seems trapped by everyone else's decisions. Seeing the wheel broke only her agency not everyone's.
Just my two cents.
Zoss and Jagganoth still perceive their own life in terms of a single timeline that changes around them or that they change or reset. Jadis seems like she perceives all possible timelines at once or, with no particular center or self or whatever doing the perceiving. Like this Jadis talking to Allison isn't the core Jadis, but just one of countless versions across however many timelines doing every possible thing in every variation. And her knowledge extends out to every other person too, in every timeline. It's too alien a perspective to even depict that point of view, so I think all the comic can or will show is this one timeline's Jadis that can talk about things she knows from other possiblites, but that's a like the barest sliver of what she is.
>Character represents the sin of sloth
>Her entire aesthetic is built around being motionless and stagnant
>"WTF bros why doesn't she just break causality and rewrite the timeline?"
Why are you like this?
Total honesty, anon: I didn't know that. I am a secondary that hasn't fully read the series. I just read this panel, got confused, and posted hoping to be spoonfed an answer. That's why I'm like this. So don't take it as being a problem with the fanbase. The character being a representation of sloth is thematically interesting though. Is the comic actually worth getting into at this point, or is it an abusive relationship like Bittersweet Candy Bowl?
>Is the comic actually worth getting into at this point
That depends, do you like mystic kung fu bullshit? This being a thread about the comic any opinion you get is likely to be positive, but it's one of the best comics active right now. And some of the supplementary material like the Tale of the Silver Prince is better than a lot of the comic
Good to know. A lot of BCB fans actively tell me to not read their comic, so I figure its worth asking.
They're right, BCB sucks. K6BD has a couple of issues but overall it's quite good. Plus it isn't melodramatic high-school bullshit.
As someone who read through the whole thing in the past week. It's worth it. There's some tumblr tier elements, but its like 5% of the story. Most of it is pretty great world building, fantastic art, and lots of different characters with compelling motives.
Honestly the hardest part of the story to get through is the very start, because the MC is thrown into this world in the first ten pages with no info. It's overwhelming on purpose and the first book is basically the MC getting dragged around and expositioned at. She comes into her own as a character in the second book.
And as the other anons pointed out the supplementary stories are worthwhile, it can feel like it breaks the flow of the comic but the lore added with each page really make the world immersive without creating too much of an interlude to the main story. It's one of the few things where being a webcomic adds to it over being a graphic novel.
>predetermined events cannot logically be known, because the mere act of knowing them changes them.
It's according to Keikakku* - knowing them was actually part of the plan. Think about the cinema projectionist: he can see the Movie as a reel of small sequences rather than a story with a beginning and an end - events are seperate and akin to small pieces of frozen time - yesterday is just as frozen as tomorrow, it's like tomorrow already happen. Jadis saw the story from the point of view of the cinema projectionnist but she's not out of the Movie, just seeing herself seeing the reel from the "credit" till "the end". It doesn't change the movie but is probably a cause of headache. Sloth for Jadis seems to be accepting this fact that the Movie is done because she see the Movie completed when a Royal projectionnist would take scissors and cut the scenes to his liking, adding 1 subliminal image of sexy Gog Agog in the middle of 24 images of Solomon. Laughing in the face of God.
> *Keikakku means plan
Don't burn your brain over it. Just take the story as is for now and wait to see what Abbs actually does with it. If the story wraps up satisfyingly, great. If not, we all wasted years waiting for updates. Trying to cope one way or another won't change that now.
Frankly, it's never going to make sense because our reality is simply not deterministic in the fashion Jadis is insisting on. From our POV, there's no way anything they're saying can work. However, they are comic characters in a story. The story's rules can be whatever they want. Even if we have no frame of reference to say how it should work.
You can guess if we're awaiting some bigger secret that makes it all more sensible, but understand you're burning effort on an activity that will not change the outcome nor bring it faster. Not even if you guess right. If you're cool with that, go ahead. You can also just wait and save your strength for other things. Each choice is open. Each choice is yours to make.
The conclusion of the comic won't change, but how you experience it certainly will. For example, thinking you can change Abb's comic to your liking will probably result in you being unhappy with the comic no matter what the story does from here. Or you can make it to the end happy and whole if you play your cards right.
Yes, I understand the inherent humor in writing a post that serves as an example of free will in a deterministic system and only realizing that in the middle of writing it.
>I'll just change the future!
>w-wait, I already knew I would try to change it but couldn't, because I already knew I wouldn't actually try because of what I'm about to think...
>layers and layers paralyzing back and forth because your will is just part of the same deterministic machine the universe is shaped by until you reach equilibrium
Obviously a single mind couldn't hold the entire scope of the universe while also being part of it... but if it could and was also bound within the universe, such a mind would be doomed follow along as if scripted, stuck on tracks wheeled along by fate
>if determinism is true, then predetermined events cannot logically be known, because the mere act of knowing them changes them.
Except that Jadis knowing them is part of the predetermination. She isn't a character any longer, she has no free will. She's basically an object
>no patreon page
fug
Jadis IS the doomer pill.
>Jadis is jaded
Hue.
The only way to end this arc:
Jadis, LIVE.
I don't think I've seen an Agni Jadis yet.
God dammit why do I love unsettling smug hags so much AAAAAAAAAA.
Isn't this just going full Kirkbride now?
>Nothing has a point, so become divine amd make your own story in the new universe