I don't know if I'd say as much, but they share at least some blame
The business practices of Marvel, DC and Image in the 90s when they were riding the speculator wave ended up leading to an inevitable crash, but those 90s books and those superstar artists also represent the last time kids and teens were excited about comic books, the last time there was a genuine influx of new readers.
The industry has spent around 30 years just clinging to the aging remnants of the readership who stuck around after the crash, an audience they're embarrassed of and don't want, but they're all the audience they've got, and their attempts at re-purposing the same product to different audiences pleases nobody, and they're not getting their comics in front of any other audience anyway.
And Image is why Marvel discourages making superstar artists
They’ve been replaced with superstar writers. Hows that working out? Suits got rid of Shooter before the image guys even had a real foothold at marvel. The frick up with Valiant and Deathmate happened after Shooter left. Marvel went after Valiant, not superstar artists.
However, if you want to pin the blame for some of this on a superstar artist, Jim Lee is still around and still fricking shit up.
We could blame Liefield too, I suppose, but he’s just an idiot.
Look at what he did to ABC and how he torpedoed 1963, Jim Lee is the villain of the piece- and even he drew some of the best selling comics Marvel’s ever had.
If it wasn't for what I assume to be severe acne scars and lack of acting talent, he could have made a good superman, especially considering his height.
>have to get a job at 13 because your family is on the verge of poverty >end up doing work under Mort Weisinger, a man so evil people only went to his funeral to make sure he was dead >eventually move over to Marvel >eventually get made editor-in-chief at a time when nobody wants the job because Marvel is a mess of missed deadlines and weak books >manage to right the ship >oversee dozens of high quality books written and drawn by amazing new talent >overtake DC in sales for the first time >bring Marvel to its greatest ever creative peak, firing on all cylinders for nearly a decade >deal with the higher-ups while tard-wrangling the more irascible creators in the bullpen >get ousted by a combination of vindictive employees and new management for all your trouble >Marvel gradually goes to shit without you >no worries, start your own comic book company in Valiant >slowly build up a respectable, high quality indie line >get ousted again by the people you first set up the business with because they want more money and you're in the way >Valiant goes to shit without you >no worries, just try again with Defiant >get kneecapped by a vindictive Marvel wrongfully suing you right out the gate because one of your new books has a name that's vaguely similar to an obscure trading card thing done by Marvel UK, lose all the money you raised in legal fees >remembered by the mainstream as an evil conservative editor who stifled creativity because that's what it says in the comic fanzines and that's what the history will always be
AND YOU COULD HAVE IT ALL
Sometimes when things go to shit, people will attempt to backtrack and try to pinpoint exactly where things went wrong.
Shooter wad in charge of Marvel Comics at their peak, Secret Wars one is still their number 1 selling book of all time. It makes sense to look at his ousting as the tipping point.
people have been trying to redeem shooter since the 2000s but for some reason he has gotten actual backlash, specially on this board
Those superstar artists are as much as responsible as Marvel for the industry wide decline in comics.
>Those superstar artists are as much as responsible as Marvel for the industry wide decline in comics.
neither superstars nor marvel could have stopped videogames eating the industry.
Videogames were just as much of a thing in the 80s and early 80s when comics were still selling. Comics were much less expensive back then, and much more easily available, too.
I think availability is one of the biggest issues these days. You'd think digital comics would have helped change that even accounting for piracy. Manga seems to be doing fine and you can read it for free everywhere.
>neither superstars nor marvel could have stopped videogames eating the industry.
Video games are a vehicle that can be used for the benefit of comics.
>neither superstars nor marvel could have stopped videogames eating the industry.
You mean movies? edgy porn descontructions? One of the first falling hard with SJW writing? catering to the tumblr market? hiring of hacks one after another? Editorial being a bunch of morons? casual reader/fanfic fanbase that dont care with the original characters stories?
These are just petty fanboy complaints that fail to see the bigger picture. Even if you removed all of these you would get a 5% sales increase at best.
>but for some reason he has gotten actual backlash, specially on this board
No he hasn't.
50 anons: *have a circlejerk where they regurgitate the same opinion*
2 anons: *express a different opinion*
One of 50 anons: WTF WHY IS *DIFFERENT OPINION* SO WIDESPREAD ON Cinemaphile???????
>50 anons: *have a circlejerk where they regurgitate the same opinion* >2 anons: *express a different opinion*
There's more anons shitting on Shooter than defending him, senpai.
No there aren't. This entire thread is defending Shooter, and we had another thread about him a few weeks ago that was all sucking his wiener: https://desuarchive.org/co/thread/139070433/
*rtists need a strong conservative man to set them in their place. If we had people like him today looking after shows Steven Universe would look like Lord of the Rings.
>If we had people like him today looking after shows Steven Universe would look like Lord of the Rings.
Well? What was it that you were ACKSHUALY trying to say?
tradition of destroying cohesive story arcs to cheaply boost sales
story arcs that were dogshit
Shooter is literally responsible for why we got some of Marvel's best stuff because he told the writers to stop writing a bunch of bullshit that kids don't care about
Because Shooter was perceived as a tyrant within the industry and seen as intentionally or unintentionally driving creators off to DC
The truth is that it's way more complicated because he did a mix of good and bad things, parts that fall into both which a company should do, and also did things that he shouldn't have done.
Old boomers are still desperate to cling for the the good old days when they could claim Secret Wars II was the worst Marvel event ever despite Marvel pumping out way worse events in the last decade or so.
He was a tyrant but that’s what the comics industry needs
If you hate the guy in charge because he’s an stuffy tightass its because he’s doing his job right.
shooter saved marvel and by extension, the entire comic industry.
he respected the fans, the characters, instead of what comic pros tend to focus on today: business side of things, tearing down characters, and insulting and alienating fans
>Spidergay >entitled butthole
Since you refuse to acknowledge the mistreatment of other characters, I will take great joy at knowing how your favorite character is being treated right now and how that probably makes you seethe.
>Then he killed the comic book industry.
No that was Marvel after it got bought out by corporate raider Ronald Perelman after he saw how much money Batman '89 made.
DeFalco may have lacked the spine to stand up to the brass, but he seems to have genuinely cared about Marvel's output. (Regardless of what mistakes he made.)
They take measures to prevent it.
fpbp, close the thread fellas
good work day, everyone hit the showers
not you OP, you still have dicks left to suck
Bump
Same thing with superstar artists.
Superstar artists are the reason why Shooters don't exist anymore.
And Image is why Marvel discourages making superstar artists
Those superstar artists are as much as responsible as Marvel for the industry wide decline in comics.
I don't know if I'd say as much, but they share at least some blame
The business practices of Marvel, DC and Image in the 90s when they were riding the speculator wave ended up leading to an inevitable crash, but those 90s books and those superstar artists also represent the last time kids and teens were excited about comic books, the last time there was a genuine influx of new readers.
The industry has spent around 30 years just clinging to the aging remnants of the readership who stuck around after the crash, an audience they're embarrassed of and don't want, but they're all the audience they've got, and their attempts at re-purposing the same product to different audiences pleases nobody, and they're not getting their comics in front of any other audience anyway.
They’ve been replaced with superstar writers. Hows that working out? Suits got rid of Shooter before the image guys even had a real foothold at marvel. The frick up with Valiant and Deathmate happened after Shooter left. Marvel went after Valiant, not superstar artists.
However, if you want to pin the blame for some of this on a superstar artist, Jim Lee is still around and still fricking shit up.
We could blame Liefield too, I suppose, but he’s just an idiot.
Look at what he did to ABC and how he torpedoed 1963, Jim Lee is the villain of the piece- and even he drew some of the best selling comics Marvel’s ever had.
>BUT THERE ARNT ANY CONSERVATIVE CREATORS!!!
What are you still doing here?
Thread's over, go home
He's based for keeping Northstar in the closet.
Frick off, of all the things to talk about Shooter you mentally ill culture warrior chose this.
breasts and balls
oh my god, editors are le fascist!
>No, you can't make Spider-Man a deadbeat dad, kids read these books.
>OMG ITS ANUDDA SHOAH!!
no! my creative expression is being restricted! help, help, I'm being oppressed!
If you like him so much, why don't you marry him?
Power hungry dictators?
Joe Quesada?
Because they put things in the water now so no one man can ever attain such HEIGHT again
I picture him sitting at a giant desk like King Yemma
Holy shit he's fricking tall.
Who is the tired guy on the left?
It's Wally Wood
IIRC that picture was shortly before he shot himself
Who are the rest besides Byrne?
If it wasn't for what I assume to be severe acne scars and lack of acting talent, he could have made a good superman, especially considering his height.
>have to get a job at 13 because your family is on the verge of poverty
>end up doing work under Mort Weisinger, a man so evil people only went to his funeral to make sure he was dead
>eventually move over to Marvel
>eventually get made editor-in-chief at a time when nobody wants the job because Marvel is a mess of missed deadlines and weak books
>manage to right the ship
>oversee dozens of high quality books written and drawn by amazing new talent
>overtake DC in sales for the first time
>bring Marvel to its greatest ever creative peak, firing on all cylinders for nearly a decade
>deal with the higher-ups while tard-wrangling the more irascible creators in the bullpen
>get ousted by a combination of vindictive employees and new management for all your trouble
>Marvel gradually goes to shit without you
>no worries, start your own comic book company in Valiant
>slowly build up a respectable, high quality indie line
>get ousted again by the people you first set up the business with because they want more money and you're in the way
>Valiant goes to shit without you
>no worries, just try again with Defiant
>get kneecapped by a vindictive Marvel wrongfully suing you right out the gate because one of your new books has a name that's vaguely similar to an obscure trading card thing done by Marvel UK, lose all the money you raised in legal fees
>remembered by the mainstream as an evil conservative editor who stifled creativity because that's what it says in the comic fanzines and that's what the history will always be
AND YOU COULD HAVE IT ALL
Does he even? Ive seen a lot of shooter resurgance.
Sometimes when things go to shit, people will attempt to backtrack and try to pinpoint exactly where things went wrong.
Shooter wad in charge of Marvel Comics at their peak, Secret Wars one is still their number 1 selling book of all time. It makes sense to look at his ousting as the tipping point.
people have been trying to redeem shooter since the 2000s but for some reason he has gotten actual backlash, specially on this board
>Those superstar artists are as much as responsible as Marvel for the industry wide decline in comics.
neither superstars nor marvel could have stopped videogames eating the industry.
Videogames were just as much of a thing in the 80s and early 80s when comics were still selling. Comics were much less expensive back then, and much more easily available, too.
I think availability is one of the biggest issues these days. You'd think digital comics would have helped change that even accounting for piracy. Manga seems to be doing fine and you can read it for free everywhere.
>Videogames were just as much of a thing in the 80s and early 80s when comics were still selling.
that's a lie and you know it.
The 5th console generation destroyed comics.
>neither superstars nor marvel could have stopped videogames eating the industry.
Video games are a vehicle that can be used for the benefit of comics.
Marvel vs Capcom is dope
>neither superstars nor marvel could have stopped videogames eating the industry.
You mean movies? edgy porn descontructions? One of the first falling hard with SJW writing? catering to the tumblr market? hiring of hacks one after another? Editorial being a bunch of morons? casual reader/fanfic fanbase that dont care with the original characters stories?
These are just petty fanboy complaints that fail to see the bigger picture. Even if you removed all of these you would get a 5% sales increase at best.
this all happened after big 2 sales moved from 1000000 to 50000
>but for some reason he has gotten actual backlash, specially on this board
No he hasn't.
50 anons: *have a circlejerk where they regurgitate the same opinion*
2 anons: *express a different opinion*
One of 50 anons: WTF WHY IS *DIFFERENT OPINION* SO WIDESPREAD ON Cinemaphile???????
>50 anons: *have a circlejerk where they regurgitate the same opinion*
>2 anons: *express a different opinion*
There's more anons shitting on Shooter than defending him, senpai.
No there aren't. This entire thread is defending Shooter, and we had another thread about him a few weeks ago that was all sucking his wiener: https://desuarchive.org/co/thread/139070433/
I wish.
>basically a literary janitor
>this is "based" according to chud/co/
Did he ever work as a janitor?
go back to sucking dicks on reddit
*rtists need a strong conservative man to set them in their place. If we had people like him today looking after shows Steven Universe would look like Lord of the Rings.
And then Cinemaphile would say
>WAAAH SU IS A LOTR RIPOFF
Work on your reading comprehension, autist
>If we had people like him today looking after shows Steven Universe would look like Lord of the Rings.
Well? What was it that you were ACKSHUALY trying to say?
He's saying that you're a chud. You gonna take that from him?
Because writers and artist don't like dictators even though sometimes dictators are needed
Utterly based memo
I bet the internal communications of modern Marvel aren't even a quarter as interesting or witty as they were in the 80s
>invents the crossover mega event comic
>creates tradition of destroying cohesive story arcs to cheaply boost sales
yeah anon, why don't we?
tradition of destroying cohesive story arcs to cheaply boost sales
story arcs that were dogshit
Shooter is literally responsible for why we got some of Marvel's best stuff because he told the writers to stop writing a bunch of bullshit that kids don't care about
Because Shooter was perceived as a tyrant within the industry and seen as intentionally or unintentionally driving creators off to DC
The truth is that it's way more complicated because he did a mix of good and bad things, parts that fall into both which a company should do, and also did things that he shouldn't have done.
Old boomers are still desperate to cling for the the good old days when they could claim Secret Wars II was the worst Marvel event ever despite Marvel pumping out way worse events in the last decade or so.
He was a tyrant but that’s what the comics industry needs
If you hate the guy in charge because he’s an stuffy tightass its because he’s doing his job right.
Nah, I dislike him because he fricked with Master of kung fu and it ended as a result.
Because the dipshit writers that Shooter pushed back against are now the editors pushing their dipshit ideas onto the actual writers.
Because he made them do their jobs,
when was christopher reeves ever an editor?
In a sex tape, I think
Comics aren't the speculative investments they used to be. Marvel and DC don't have the money they used to
He was perfect.
shooter saved marvel and by extension, the entire comic industry.
he respected the fans, the characters, instead of what comic pros tend to focus on today: business side of things, tearing down characters, and insulting and alienating fans
He sure respected Hank Pym.
Yeah, he didn't expect that such thing like a single panel would frick the character for decades.
who cares about a D list character tho?
shooter stopped bill mantlo from making spider-man into a deadbeat dad of a bastard child, and that alone makes him a hero.
Shooter was the driver
>Spidergay
>entitled butthole
Since you refuse to acknowledge the mistreatment of other characters, I will take great joy at knowing how your favorite character is being treated right now and how that probably makes you seethe.
Hank Pym sucks.
Hank went through his whole redemption arc under shooter, it wasn’t until much later that he was torn down again
>shooter saved marvel
Then he killed the comic book industry.
there would be no comics industry if marvel had collapsed in the 80s u moron. and they were very close, until shooter came in
>Then he killed the comic book industry.
No that was Marvel after it got bought out by corporate raider Ronald Perelman after he saw how much money Batman '89 made.
You don't know what you're talking about.
Because artists/writers are now big selling points instead of the characters so you better not piss them off.
Man I just fricking want to comics be fun to read again.
Was shooter the last Marvel EIC that was across the whole line and actually paid attention to what was going on continuity wise?
DeFalco was probably the last.
DeFalco may have lacked the spine to stand up to the brass, but he seems to have genuinely cared about Marvel's output. (Regardless of what mistakes he made.)