Because vegeta is so popular, Toriyama went from "Hes gonna be a one-off guy that gets killed" to "Goku is now permanently stuck with him, and Picolo gets shafted in not getting that role"
>Only for a arc or two at most
That makes it sound like the plan was to have him die in the Frieza Saga, not be a one-off villain.
Does anyone know what exactly Toriyama said about Vegeta's creation?
Frick no, Toriyama is notorious for not planning for shit when it comes to Dragon Ball. He literally spent most of the series making it up as he went along, and it really shows in a lot of areas.
>Yeah, I guess I like Piccolo the most after all. Out of all the enemies, Demon King Piccolo is the one I like most, and even after that I like Piccolo the most. I like Piccolo about the same as I like Goku. With Vegeta, well, I don’t like him all that much, but he was extremely helpful to have around.
also
Because vegeta is so popular, Toriyama went from "Hes gonna be a one-off guy that gets killed" to "Goku is now permanently stuck with him, and Picolo gets shafted in not getting that role"
is a Panel from a Aniversary manga he did. So its his words there too. Lemme see if I can find the full page.
But yeah chances are if Vegeta wasnt so popular he would have died permanently on namek
Frick no, Toriyama is notorious for not planning for shit when it comes to Dragon Ball. He literally spent most of the series making it up as he went along, and it really shows in a lot of areas.
No. Toriyama changed a lot of thing on the fly.
The best known one was how his editor made him change the Androids final boss several times : Gero and the Fat dude (they look stupid ! Change that !), 17 &18 (what ? Teenagers ? Nah, give me something like Frieza) , then Cell (of course, he can transform). The [parentheses parts] are real quote from Torishima, his first editor.
Tails is obviously Gohan, I have no idea how people can mistake him for Krillin.
1 year ago
Anonymous
It’s just cause he’s the sidekick/best friend
1 year ago
Anonymous
Krillin was a rival/friend that quickly got powercreeped by Goku, he never saw Goku as a big brother or parental figure.
It becomes clear if you watch DB.
He's Bulma. Sonic's first ally that's also an inventor.
He certainly isn't Bulma because he didn't give any tech support to Sonic during the 2D era.
He was just the kid character.
I mean Krillin by the Cell saga was already a married dude, if anything he reminds me of Antoine because both are weak rivals who ended up marrying a blonde robot.
1 year ago
Anonymous
Tails never saw Sonic as a parental figure either.
and Tails does bring tech support in the 2d era. His emerald radar is literally based off of Bulma's Dragon radar, 1:1
Tails was always the tech support, he was never just "the kid character". That was only in Archieshit.
1 year ago
Anonymous
Well if you just want to nitpick my post for your silly argument then you're free to do so.
But to do so you have to ignore who those characters are and how they behave in their own stories completely.
Nobody normal will look at Tails and say "Yeah, that's Sonic's Bulma."
Krillin could make more sense but Tails is too much of a kid, even his origin story involves him being taken under Sonic's wing and seeing in him a role model he wants to emulate.
1 year ago
Anonymous
and Tails is way too smart to be Gohan, considering he employs tech to boost him in all his combat since Triple Trouble.
Plus regardless of being a "kid", Tails always took part in the adventures side by side with Sonic, just like Krillin did. His age never affected his actions, which was being the fighting friend since day 1. Unlike Gohan who was never a fighter until he had to be forced into fighting. Tails neevr went under a training arc or any shit to be able to fight, he was fighting as Sonic's partner since the day they met.
1 year ago
Anonymous
>Nobody normal will look at Tails and say "Yeah, that's Sonic's Bulma."
I would, considering, you know, he literally uses tech that's based on Bulma
1 year ago
Anonymous
1 year ago
Anonymous
Bulma didn't make that, idiot. She reverse engineered it from the Frieza Force.
1 year ago
Anonymous
You're looking at two completely different characters with abyssally different personalities and thinking they're the same because of the trinkets they use.
and Tails is way too smart to be Gohan, considering he employs tech to boost him in all his combat since Triple Trouble.
Plus regardless of being a "kid", Tails always took part in the adventures side by side with Sonic, just like Krillin did. His age never affected his actions, which was being the fighting friend since day 1. Unlike Gohan who was never a fighter until he had to be forced into fighting. Tails neevr went under a training arc or any shit to be able to fight, he was fighting as Sonic's partner since the day they met.
Tails smarts don't make him any more mature than Gohan however, but I think you're right when you say that he also doesn't fit Gohan perfectly because he's been adventuring with Sonic from the start.
At the end I don't think he fits perfectly as any of those characters but if I had to pick one that he would be closer to it would surely be Gohan simply because his character arcs constantly seem to revolve around things like maturing and trying to be more like Sonic. Neither Krillin nor Bulma ever had those types of struggles as defining parts of their characters.
>weak rivals
That's your mistake. Up until Buu, Krillin was Goku's best friend.
Also, while weak compared to Goku, he was still competent. Hell, he carried Namek arc and he's the first one to do great damages to Frieza by cutting his tail.
>Up until Buu, Krillin was Goku's best friend.
I agree but they did have a rivalry when they first met in DB.
1 year ago
Anonymous
Because of their skillsets*
Bulma is the genius tech support and vehicle transport. Tails is the genius tech support and vehicle transport.
Gohan is a moron compared to Tails and has no skill with technology at all. Bulma and Tails have comparable intelligence and ability with tech, and are in fact the people to do with all the protagonists' tech. That's why they're similar.
1 year ago
Anonymous
Even if you want to reduce your comparison to skillsets it still falls apart because Tails not only is able to keep up with Sonic but also go through the same games by himself without any help from extra tech unlike Bulma that was never a fighter like Goku and at best gave support from the sidelines usually with her guns.
I honestly don't know where you want to get with this.
1 year ago
Anonymous
And to add to this, Tails doesn't have a vegana either. I think.
1 year ago
Anonymous
>Tails doesn't have a vegana either. >"Not like that has ever stopped me" >t. Sonic
1 year ago
Anonymous
Sonic is for Shadow
1 year ago
Anonymous
It's more accurate to say that he's a composite of Krillin and Bulma
1 year ago
Anonymous
More like Gohan and Bulma, he literally was an inspiration for the creation of Tails, Krillin was a non-factor.
1 year ago
Anonymous
He was an inspiration for Tails and Sonic’s intended relationship. That’s like saying Sonic is based on Piccolo because that’s what the guy said as well.
1 year ago
Anonymous
He was an inspiration for Tails and Sonic’s intended relationship. That’s like saying Sonic is based on Piccolo because that’s what the guy said as well.
Krillin has more in common with him. Tails was never Sonic’s student, or trainee, or son. He’s Sonic’s old friend and partner from their first adventures. That’s Krillin.
1 year ago
Anonymous
Krillin despite being a midget was always Goku's peer in terms of age and general maturity, but got quickly powercreeped as Goku grew stronger through the series.
Tails is full of potential, shown by how he can keep up with Sonic's speed despite being younger, his development doesn't come from him training and becoming stronger but by learning from Sonic's example how he should be and act.
Sonic absolutely is Tails mentor, not in a formal way but in a traditional one where he teaches through example and this is one of the reasons Tails follows him in the first place, so he can learn how to be more like Sonic.
1 year ago
Anonymous
Miss bunnie rabbot.
1 year ago
Anonymous
>weak rivals
That's your mistake. Up until Buu, Krillin was Goku's best friend.
Also, while weak compared to Goku, he was still competent. Hell, he carried Namek arc and he's the first one to do great damages to Frieza by cutting his tail.
1 year ago
Anonymous
>he carried Namek arc
LOL no, Gohan did more than him
1 year ago
Anonymous
Vegeta was the MVP but was doing solo for the first half, where Krillin carried the team (&Bulma)
1 year ago
Anonymous
He's Bulma. Sonic's first ally that's also an inventor.
1 year ago
Anonymous
This, literally his creator confirmed it.
1 year ago
Anonymous
*Kitsune is japanese for two-armed fox! - Editor
1 year ago
Anonymous
Because he’s a pathetic cuck like Krillin. Even Gohan at his lowest isn’t as lame as Tails.
1 year ago
Anonymous
careful you'll upset the people who live vicariously through him and draw him bang/ing all the girls who in canon barely talk with him...though you are wrong in him being lame
1 year ago
Anonymous
How is Krillin a cuck? He has a solid job, a hot wife, and a daughter of his own. If you wanted to go purely by being pathetic, Tails would be Yamcha or Tien.
he really fricking his >former mc rival replaced by a rival much more similar to the mc >bit of loner who still hangs out with his friends a lot >associated with magical stone(s) >vaguely black (not really for piccolo but that jokes been there for him for years)
>I'm the ultimate lifeform, I'm the coolest, eat my shit and suck my-- >AAAAAAH NO DON'T COVER ME WITH ROBOT CUM, I DON'T WANT ROBO AIDS, SAVE ME SONIC
he isn't. Vegeta is a manlet who sulks in the corner and will always be inferior to goku. Shadow has always been portrayed as on Sonic's level if not greater in skill, power, and wisdom. Vegeta's aspirations are to overpower goku, Shadow's aspirations change from iteration to iteration.
The IDW comics have him as a malding prideful moron that goes on about being the Ultimate Lifeform like Vegeta goes on about being the Prince of all Saiyans.
This is why I wish they allowed Metal Sonic to speak more. Have him be the malding one with the autistic desire to defeat Sonic (since, you know, that's literally why he was created) and give Shadow his old characterization back
Yeah, that was Shadow until 2006 or so. Since then he's just meme Vegeta.
Boom even made fun of this when he said "you're a disgrace for the hedgehog race Sonic !".
Is this all stuff in the comics? cause in the games he does not come off that way. Also are the comics cannon? seems like most people into sonic don't even read the comics
Yeah, that was Shadow until 2006 or so. Since then he's just meme Vegeta.
Boom even made fun of this when he said "you're a disgrace for the hedgehog race Sonic !".
the opinions of Mexicans as a way to discern taste
Worse, Argentinos jajaja
1 year ago
Anonymous
There's no distinction between a Mexican and an Argentinian. All Latinos are Mexican. Unless they're Brazilian, in which case they may or may not be Russian.
I like it, but the worlds are kind of barren but the character interactions are what we are here for anyway and they are top tier, also the action is good.
Sounds like the IDW run. Is Potto writing this, too?
1 year ago
Boco
>Is Potto writing this, too?
Worse, Man of Action.
1 year ago
Anonymous
Never heard of them before.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_of_Action_Entertainment >Founded by the guy who wrote early 00s Superman >Ben 10 >Avengers EMH >Mega Man: Fully Charged
Not seeing the issue here.
Also, Megaman had a recent cartoon? I never knew that before.
Unironically TGT is my favorite versions of him. The random try hard edge mixed with subtle moments of softness is so god damn good.
In one panel, he'll call someone a fat fricking batsard and then stab them to death laugh, and then in the next, he's knitting a sweater.
No he wasn't you fricking moron. >Shadow gets captured by Locke, immediately breaks out and kicks his ass >Team Dark beats Faust >Shadow is the only character to hurt Enerjak >Shadow trashes Snively’s Egg Lobster in one hit when it was beating up Knuckles >Shadow beats up Sonic in an even fight during the Not!Gamma arc >Shadow effortlessly trashes Team Rose and curbstomps Amy in Treasure Team Tango >Shadow and Sonic and Scourge effortlessly beat Octobot and Crocbot (Tails’ villains) while every other vharacter, Tails included, sits on the sidelines and cheers about how amazing and cool and better than them they are >Shadow trashes an entire army of Neo Metal Sonics by accident >Shadow beats up Eclipse, and then kills Black Death and an entire army of Black Arms during Shadow Fall >Shadow fights Knuckles to a standstill even while being mindfricked by Eclipse >Shadow and Knuckles beat the crap out of Naugus
Archie Shadow got a bajillion little feats and badass moments, despite being a secondary character in a comic with a billion characters. Half the Freedom Fighters didn't get as many good moments as Shadow, and they were the main cast.
And yet Shadowgays still b***h because even that wasn't enough.
>Locke called him a pussy ass vegetable and not as stronger as Knuckkes with the chaos force >He and the rest got as far because Faust fricking held back and didnt thought obliterate them on the spot >Shadow did not hurt Enerknux, after that pussy ass chaos blast, he was dowb for the count, Sonic insultrd him for the effort to add insult to injury >Beating up Amy Rose and bragging about it is like saying Knuckkes beat up Tails with pride, if Shadow took down Blaze that would be more impressive. Shadow should have took down all three effortlessly, he has time manipulation. >Sonic and his recolors bullied a fodder robot, but Shadow got rocked by Scorge twice even with Sonics help. >Shadow and Metal Sonic job the same as each other so whatever >Shadow kamikazed Eclipse and nearly died if Rouge didnt save his sorry emo ass, the fact that Shadow had to struggle against a oppennt weaker than Scourge and Sonic is an insult to his character >Shadow got tossed and roughed up the most and his teleport spam was countered to the point he got thrown to another side of the fricking land like a football, he was Knuckles b***h and only a homosexual like Ian Flynn would fricking write Knuckles being more based than Shadow, hes Ians favorite character also >Nagus is weak, even Bunnie kicked his ass
Shadow was a total punk and crybaby jobber. He only got two good moments and(Beating Sonic and being king of mobius) thats it. He was worthless and lame and many characters like Sonic made fun of him for it. That is not the Shadow i know and loved.
>Locke's headcanon >Faust is a God and Team Dark still punked him >Enerjak is also a God and even Super Sonic couldn't beat him >Amy is a main cast member and there was a massive chaotic battle with her, Blaze, and the Babylon Rogues going on >Scourge is Sonic with a power boost >killed a WHOLE ARMY of Metal Sonics >Eclipse can cancel out most of Shadow's abilities and still lost >Eclipse can cancel out most of Shadow's abilities and he still fought Knux to a draw >Naugus is a powerful wizard who was mindfricking Omega and Shadow explicitly couldn't use Chaos blast without bringing the cave down on them, also Bunnie is a powerful cyborg
All of your points are just whiny nitpicks and expecting Shadow to be an unstoppable Mary Sue.
>Locke is pretty much ken penders/writer in disguse >Team Dark couldnt overwhelm him or rival him, while Faust was toying with them and not taking them seriously, they were the punks trying to get one over hin instead of actually intimadating him and being writen as capable of fighting him equally on their own terms, if Shadow had all 7 chaos emeralds to begin with, this wouldnt be a challenge for Team Dark >Amy is the the weakest of the main cast, even in archie where she got a buff with the iron king she should not even convienance Shadow or Omega, hell all against him, none of them can stop Shadow freezing time and killing them instantly >Shadow is Sonic with a power boost and somehow dbz like power like zenkai and more anime bullshit, Scourge being only Sonic shouldnt be enough. >Metal Sonic armies have been soloed by Sonic before, nothing special >Eclipse has not the speed or raw power to even slow Shadow down. And against it was a one sided beatdown from Knuckles ones he said Sonic was stronger. >Shadow should have the power to counter nagus skills with chaos powers and ya know raw plot breaking spèed/power being as fast as Sonic.
Shadow has to be nerfed to have other characters go toe yo toe with him equally or better than him since all his powers and capabilities arent used in the comic to their fullest extebt while several other characters get non canon buffs and all sorts of pis power ups that make them as broken as a god an stronger than shadow normally is. Only Sonic sboukd scale to Shadow, not anyone else.
1 year ago
Anonymous
>Only Sonic should scale to Shadow, not anyone else.
This. He's the 2nd most powerful character for a reason.
1 year ago
Anonymous
>This. He's the 2nd most powerful character for a reason.
>power levels >in a series of platforming games where the goal is to run
And you wonder why nobody likes Shadow.
back to Cinemaphile you disgusting slug
1 year ago
Anonymous
>And you wonder why nobody likes Shadow.
He still remains the second most popular character in the series friend.
1 year ago
Anonymous
>back to Cinemaphile you disgusting slug
But I ALREADY KISSED MY WIIIIIFEEE!!!!
1 year ago
Anonymous
Penders is a shit writer and his opinion shouldn't be taken seriously, Faust was a fricking God who can nullify Shadow's chaos powers, Scourge IS Sonic (who you admitted should scale to Shadow), and Eclipse was nullifying Shadow's Chaos powers during his fights with Shadow and Shadow's fight with Knux, and Naugus' magic powers are pretty vague in the reboot.
Shadow is repeatedly fighting enemies that are nerfing him, and still winning. It's not as bad as you're saying.
1 year ago
Anonymous
>Scourge IS Sonic (who you admitted should scale to Shadow)
Not that anon, but yes, you're correct on all points. Finally somebody says this and the obvious. Ultimate lifeforms naturally and artificial are the peak of sonic powerlevels.
1 year ago
Anonymous
>Locke is pretty much ken penders/writer in disguse
I thought Locke was Penders' personification of his daddy issues?
Shadow and Omega and Rouge all canonically got beat up by Team Chaotix, who won their fight in Heroes.
Your problem is you can’t cope with your self-insert not being treated as a powerfantasy that he most definitely is not supposed to be.
Agreed. >he'll call someone a fat fricking batsard
See I dont know if thats a typo or not and thats what makes it great
Lazerbot is a true Outsider Artist that took his sudden fame, criticism and influx of comments and tppk it all to heart but in a good way. Hes basically opposite Chris-Chan
It almost seems like even that's been taken away from him. Nowadays he apparently only cares about "fighting strong opponents" and doesn't give a shit about anything else.
He literally doesn't care about anyone or anything, and basically has no reason to do anything other than brood on clifftops all day.
The real reason is that SonicTeam are run by a bunch of fricking otaku whose boner for stupid space monkeys rivals that of Mexicans. So that autism bleeds into their series of kids platformers about cartoon hedgehogs.
If you ask Izuka what he wouls rather be doing, it would most likely be on the dev team of DBZ Budokai Tenkaichi 4 than making another Sonic game
He was a nothing character like everyone else in Heroes
He was alright in 06, maybe a bit angsty with the whole humanity betraying him plot point but still decent
Everything since he's just been emo Sonic/shitty Vegeta
Shadow could be considered the main character of 06, since he was the only one actually doing anything related to the game's actual plot. Sonic was focused strictly on Elise while Silver was trying to figure out what ruined the future, Shadow meanwhile was actually investigating the conflict and fighting the actual antagonist.
Shadow was extremely edgy in SA2, even moreso than in his own game.
He was edgy in his debut, but in a way that was typical for Japanese villains at the time (See: Sephiroth, Xion in Bloody Roar, Kazuya Mishima, etc.) it was his own game (and to a lesser extent, X) that stained his reputation among the general public as a tryhard "edgelord", that combined with him getting the only halfway decent story in '06 and the damage was already done.
I like Shadow having a soft spot for kids. Considering his best friend never got the chance to really have one, it makes sense he’d bend over backwards to make a kid, like Cream, happy
"do you like it?" >the rabbit girl asks innocently. >Shadow scowls at the delicate wreath resting upon his brow like a princess's tiara >Cheese recoils slightly, worried about Shadow's reaction and what it will do to Cream. >Shadow focus on the smiling rabbit >his eyes narrow in intensity to pin-pricks >he grits his teeth and in a calm voice he declares
"I love it!"
He’s the one character who dedicated his life to protecting the world. Everyone else are free agents who only take down Eggman because he gets in the way of them.
It almost seems like even that's been taken away from him. Nowadays he apparently only cares about "fighting strong opponents" and doesn't give a shit about anything else.
He literally doesn't care about anyone or anything, and basically has no reason to do anything other than brood on clifftops all day.
he isn't. Vegeta is a manlet who sulks in the corner and will always be inferior to goku. Shadow has always been portrayed as on Sonic's level if not greater in skill, power, and wisdom. Vegeta's aspirations are to overpower goku, Shadow's aspirations change from iteration to iteration.
>Sonic's level if not greater in skill, power, and wisdom
Srarting ti chsnge recently.
>He’s the one character who dedicated his life to protecting the world
Which is why they made him stop that, if hes the only one determined to protector the world, then Sonic wont be much use or have a point when going on all his adventures. Shadow to me was always the anti hero awnser to Sonic, he is a hero but is completely goes about it unconvetionally and ammorally.
This should have been the case honestly.
If Omega were in SA2, sure, you'd never play as eggman, but it would have allowed him to be a major character like shadow and rouge. They could have tied it to the E-Series between 1 and 2 as well. Poor Omega has never been in a successful sonic game with a cohesive story at the same time, and got shafted out of appearing in Sonic X too.
Question: why the frick do we need a dark rival for Sonic?
Other Question: Why does he need more rivals? There's too many of them already, and the only thing they can rival him in is being fast. which in that case, makes Eggman his most powerful rival
Rule of Cool and its more interesting to see the wienery maverik hero get rivaled by the dark and stoic ace showing how far apart yet similar they really are.
1 year ago
Anonymous
>its more interesting to see the wienery maverik hero get rivaled by the dark and stoic ace showing how far apart yet similar they really are.
once or twice is ok. All the time, and the concept gets stale.
Better to have a rival that is straight up evil and is so unrepentant & malicious that it makes the hero get serious instead of playing around.
>Other Question: Why does he need more rivals? There's too many of them already, and the only thing they can rival him in is being fast.
He doesn't need any more rivals, but he could use some more straight-up villains. It's mostly just Eggman and a bunch of one-offs.
Shadow should strive to create his own secret security bureau since G.U.N is corrupt and still hasn't publicly apologized for Maria's political assassination.
>Shadow was a joke on Boom
Boco, i know you have shit taste but you can't think that walking black hole of charisma who ruined 2 Boom finales is actually funny, right?
The only time Shadow was funny was on Twitter and in the Lego games
While his character arc definitely concluded with SA2 and he probably should've stayed dead all things considered, I think he's generally just had the misfortune of having been introduced right on the precipice of Sonic's worst decade. I'd really only call Shadow a poorly written character in his own game. Otherwise, it's usually the rest of the game around him that's shitty.
Sonic 06 is the example that always comes to my mind. The game as a whole is extremely melodramatic and generally moronic, but Shadow himself isn't really handled all that poorly. He's basically a stoic, driven character who doesn't really spend any time moping -- serious, but definitely not edgy. And I think the idea of him working more closely with GUN is a solid direction for the character. It's just that this was happening in a game where a human princess smooches a hedgehog and that's overall extremely unpleasant to play, and those are generally the sorts of games where Shadow takes center stage.
>And I think the idea of him working more closely with GUN is a solid direction for the character.
How? This shoukd never have haooebed these people killed the one person he loved and generally see him as they originally planned to use him a goverment weapon and grunt. Shadow should not be bound by anyone, that was the point of his own game. Hes too cool and overly competent to be sub servient to GUN.
Because he has no motivation. In SA2, it was vengeance. In Heroes, it was figuring out who he really was. Then he got his own game and Sega retconned everything out the window. Now he's just... mad I guess?
Battle does have a solid Shadow. Unfortunately, I don't have my Sonic folder with me right now, I have some of the great moments screenshoted. Also Battle solidifies ShadowXRouge
There's nothing for him to do. He just shows up out of nowhere for no reason and leaves. Where does go? What does he do in his down time?
It's impossible to write a Shadow-centric story because it can never have a proper beginning or an ending. He can only show up in the middle of a story, somehow already knowing what's happening and being angry about something.
Archie found a good place for Shadow in GUN. We knew where he was in-between the action, he had long term and short term goals, he could join a story with the whys and hows already covered.
Current Shadow has no context, he just doesn't exist unless the story needs him to. I mean, I know what Rouge is doing when she's not around, she's treasure hunting or doing shady government work. Sonic's a wandering hobo, Tails has his labs, Knuckles is on his island, Amy has multiple hangouts like Cream's house, Big has his hut, the Babylon Rogues have their blimp and they go robbing and shit. The fricking Babylon Rogues are better defined characters than Shadow, think about that.
>He can only show up in the middle of a story, somehow already knowing what's happening and being angry about something.
Frick, that is shockingly on point. Forces, IDW, Prime, they all have this exact issue.
Thats easy to justify, he just goes where every sonic goes "coicidently" to stop evil his own way which leads to conflict between him and sonic. He's always been a shadow twin parrelel to Sonic when Sonic needs the stakes to rise or a equal to showcase his true potential.
Easy to justify, sure, but it doesn't make it any less contrived when he doesn't really have much incentive to follow Sonic around. Sonic already has enough stalkers on his team as is.
He doesnt follow Sonic, they just hapoen to bump into to each other as per the narrative beat. Its classic rival showdown plot device, or it allows to introduce Shadow into the main narrative with the main protagonist without it being a character quirk reason.
>Current Shadow has no context, he just doesn't exist unless the story needs him to. >Sonic's a wandering hobo
Shadow is also a wandering hobo. He just looks for strong things to fight instead of cool sights and badguys to stop. He's Ryu/Akuma.
>Omega has the problem.
He spends his time destroying badniks.
>Shadow is also a wandering hobo. He just looks for strong things to fight instead of cool sights and badguys to stop.
OK, but like, can we see that? A little glimpse of it? Shadow minding his own business before shit goes down? I know Sonic's a hobo with wanderlust because that's how we see him just before Eggman attacks. We've never seen Shadow do anything, even just traveling and fighting for the sake of it.
>OK, but like, can we see that? A little glimpse of it? Shadow minding his own business before shit goes down?
I mean we kinda got that in his own game. He just stands broodily when the camera pans over while Sonic is usually chillin or running instead. After that we got the budget era and Sonic Team can barely string a cutscene together at all. Forces kinda tried to do this but, again, budget. Shit, we haven't seen Sonic do this in years either. He's either at the inciting incident or on the Tornado as the inciting incident occurs.
Now, if you mean the comics, YEAH! THEY SHOULD DO THAT! I don't think Sega would say no!
I think you bring up a fair point that he really is never in, nor even works, in the beginning or the end, but more in the middle for conflict. He does work better with a “formulated mission” but maybe that was supposed to form a cloud of mystery around him? Adding to his dark Muh-Rea story?
Either way people think he’s cool, it just somehow works.
Forces Shadow was not written the same way as IDW Shadow.
Forces Shadow is weird. In some ways he's actually written closer to Archie Shadow of all things. The DLC even said he was an agent on a mission from some undisclosed organization.
Have to say his reveal as a bad guy again in Forces was cool when then promos premiered.
>Bullshit >If faust is that strong, why hed lose to super sonic then >og sonic beat scourge so by that measure shadow should be scoruge >Eclipse is still weaker or should be inferior to shadow in speed and strength since shadow is equal to sonic in thise categories, no chaos powers needed. >thats a good way of putting the entirety of Archie, badly vague.
Shadow naturally should curbstomp everyone sonic has curbstomped. And he naturally is that powerful in canon with his power,in archie he should be greater than enerjak as the chaos force god.
Faust never even fought or met Super Sonic. You’re not only a seething manbaby, you’re a stupid one too making up your own imaginary problems to cry about.
Eclipse has stronger powers than Shadow and Omega and said this himself, including in speed and strength. And Shadow can’t use chaos powers because he blocks them. And Eclipse also has mindraping to boot. Eclipse was an objectively superior opponent in every way to Shadow, or to Sonic.
Shadow got beaten up by a mass-produced copy of Gamma in canon.
Touch grass, you whiny beta Shadowbitch.
>If faust is that strong, why hed lose to super sonic then
Shadow wasn't in his Super form, and Faust was nullifying his Chaos powers.
>og sonic beat scourge so by that measure shadow should be scoruge
Scourge needed his Super form to beat Shadow the second time. The first could be considered jobbing I guess, but Scourge beat Sonic then too.
>Eclipse is still weaker or should be inferior to shadow in speed and strength since shadow is equal to sonic in thise categories, no chaos powers needed.
Eclipse is an ultra-powerful alien who was created specifically to counter Shadow, and he still lost.
>thats a good way of putting the entirety of Archie, badly vague.
It did a better job with powerlevel bullshit than some western comics do. And since continuity had just rebooted, we didn't have a clear picture of what Naugus could do.
>And he naturally is that powerful in canon with his power,in archie he should be greater than enerjak as the chaos force god.
Enerjak is more powerful than Super Sonic. Why would Archie Shadow naturally be able to beat him without a Super-form?
Lets be real there are tons of characters that can overcome archie shadow and eclipse in base. Eclipse wasnt that strong, its just Shadow was that weak compared to everyone else includibg is canon portrayals. Sonic would make short worj of eclipse. Hes beaten a weapon meant to counter his power to plenty of tines with ease.
Eclipse was far stronger than both Omega and Rouge. Archie Sonic only fought 2 robots specifically to counter him: The Egg Beater and Metal 2.5
Both of them absolutely destroyed Sonic without effort and it wasn’t even close.
Omega was the third one built specifically to defeat Sonic. If Eclipse trashed Omega, he’d have trashed Sonic too. Shadow tied Sonic before in the golden gamma arc.
Shadow wasn’t written as weak. He was written exactly how the games write him: as strong as Sonic. Eclipse was simply stronger, and Shadowmanbabies have never coped since because all these years later still none of them have felt the touch of a woman.
Eclispe cant scale to even Eggmans strongest robot and the Metal Sonic troopers, which Shadow one shot, lets not exagerrated, Flynn marty stu'd his Shadow OC in Shadow fall and forgot most of Shadow OP full moveset and capabilties in all his appearances for cheao suspense. Even though Shadow scales to people stronger than Eclispe as a power house
Eclipse literally oneshotted Omega and tore out his chaos drive in that very story you manbaby idiot. You literally did not even read the story you cry like a b***h about.
Anyone on Sonic and Knuckles level can do the same damn thing. Omegas not that powerful outside of cheap hypeless statements scaling to sealing Shadow in a vague context. Sonic if he fought Eclipse would be too fast and ubpredictable for Eclipse to adapt his forms to, Knuckles with his super inhuman strength and master combat experience would simply overoower Eclipse. Shadow is shown to equal these two evenlly and equally. It makes no sense to be written stronger than the guy whos feat scale to the strongest non god characters in the comic.
>Anyone on Sonic and Knuckles level can do the same damn thing.
So you admit that Eclipse is on Sonic and Knuckles' level.
Given that he can specifically nerf Shadow's Chaos powers, is it THAT unbelievable that he can take on Shadow?
1 year ago
Anonymous
Sonic and Knuckles have done moelre cosmic shit than either Shadow or Eclipse. Even in their base forms their fast enough to beat up god level characters like Nagus and Demtri.
1 year ago
Anonymous
Because Sonic and Knuckles had dozens of issues to show off in before Shadow even appeared in the comic?
Seriously, the comic had been running for years before Sonic Adventure 2 had even come out, Knuckles had his own spinoff, and Shadow doesn't become a recurring character until Issue #124. Of course Sonic and Knuckles are going to have more focus than Shadow.
1 year ago
Anonymous
Theres the problem then, to much escalation between long running characters new characters just seem underwhelming in comparison. Shadow came in hot as one of the heavy in the games but got introduced in a universe where hes a middle tier at best. Maybe because hes scaled to have of Sonics skills they were afraid of buffing him on any level like sonic and knuckles while not being a foundation like those two. If Shadow had became as strong as enerjak and had his own ultra form, long term fans would b***h
There was nothing wrong with Shadow in the Archie Comics prior to the shift in characterization that came with the Colors writing onward. Shadow and Tails got their shittier personalities (Tails especially in Lost World and Forces) the same time Amy started to get a good one.
At least Tails got a ton of dialogue in Frontiers more or less acting as an apology for it though.
>Shadow in the Archie Comics
Except his overly socially try hard fruendly crybaby nature and losing to people Sonic beat with ease. Sbit taste confirmed.
When did he lose to anyone that Sonic "beat with ease?" The only dudes that Sonic beat that Shadow lost to were ADAM and Super Scourge, and Sonic had to go Super to beat ADAM and trick Scourge into losing his Super form.
Its bad writing only Sonic is the only person that can fight these villains in Super Form, seriously Shadow was robbed off good final boss moments and hero moments because the super form privilages belonged to Sonic and sometimes Knuckkes. And isnt Shadow supposed be smarter and more strategic than Sonic in the games.
>And sometimes knuckles
Ironic considering knuckles hasn't been able to be relevent in decades while shadow still gets tag in super mode privilidges in games.
So can someone explain why the frick shadow would ever use a gun?
Its literally 100 times weaker than any of his attacks while also being functionally lethal at all times, so its also less flexible than any of his abilities.
Rule of cool. Why would Sonic need to use Caliburn in Black Knight? He could've solo'd most of the game without him. >inb4 King Arthur can't be defeated without muh sword
Investigate and kill the one who made the clone. Merlina would've been dead to one spindash if she never got the scabberd in the first place.
That's what made Shad05 so laughable though. It was just a moronic mishmash of everything that was considered cool back in the 2000s.
See
Shadow on his own isn't too edgy (Shonen rivals are a thing) but the Shadow video game was. >amnesia plot from Jason Bourne >cyberspace level like this is the Matrix >evil aliens like Halo or Independence Day >government conspiracies
It was like a hackneyed mishmash of everything that was considered cool in the 2000s, with all the sincerity of a Mountain Dew commercial.
Speaking of, Shadow never beat any Megaman robot master in the worlds collide side comic, talk about getting fricked over, that comic was just terrible for Shadow and one of the worst moments for comics peroid.
1 year ago
Anonymous
ummm no the comics weren’t bad, it is just that every sonic character not named sonic was sidelined and the megaman characters got the spotlight. worlds unite however…
1 year ago
Anonymous
>it is just that every sonic character not named sonic was sidelined
Worse, they jobbed. >and the megaman characters got the spotlight
Not really. It was mostly Sonic beating up Robot Masters in the final stretch.
Everyone but Sonic and the villains got the shaft.
1 year ago
Anonymous
>jobbing
A fate worse than death
1 year ago
Anonymous
Didnt Knuckles and Blaze and Silver get victories over their respective counter parts?
Many aspects, starting from a more interesting personality, better role inside the games, mysterious backstory that took several games to be explored...
And the cape. Damn it, that cape is cool. Even the guys behind that cancelled Megaman Online game understood how much better he looks with the darn thing.
The problem with Protoman.exe is that they tried to make him a Zero expy, instead of Protoman
1 year ago
Anonymous
and then had an ACTUAL zero character up; now that was a pointless character.
1 year ago
Anonymous
I honestly wonder how that production meeting went... >So, for this game we plan to introduce the Battle Network version of Zero >Wait, isn't he already in the games? >What do you mean? >You know, red guy with long hair who wields a sword? >Right... how do we explain you... that's Protoman.
1 year ago
Anonymous
I honestly wonder how that production meeting went... >So, for this game we plan to introduce the Battle Network version of Zero >Wait, isn't he already in the games? >What do you mean? >You know, red guy with long hair who wields a sword? >Right... how do we explain you... that's Protoman.
Zero EXE does have a cool design in a Hakumen sort of way. Full armored knight characters are always cool. Just wish he showed up in other games since he canonically lives in Network Transmission. Frick, at least let him be a bonus boss, and there was that whole GBA link thing during the Gamecube era. Why didn't they take advantage of that? Like, if you linked BN3 to a GC with a Network Transmission save you get cool bonus battle with Zero, maybe even have him be the one who follows Mega Man around the Undernet and saves him from Bass instead of the random Scilab Navi
Protoman.exe was good in that he contrasted well with megaman though, following the classic "Red rival is a melee specialist while Blue is a ranged specialist" paradigm.
That's a big problem that the classic series has in trying to fit protoman in as playable-- Bass has versatility and movement while megaman has raw power as a ranged combatant, so where does that leave Protoman? If you power, you make it harder to properly differentiate megaman with bass, and if you do glass cannon you need to find a way to give him skill based defense, and Bass already has double jumping/mobility claimed.
The best method seems to be the X series method of making black versatile in aiming, Blue raw power but "Slower" and clunkier than black, and then red as your melee character.
So in that method of thinking, Protoman.exe is "better" than normal protoman, from a gameplay standpoint.
1 year ago
Anonymous
exe also had actual bossfights, so that's another plus in the gameplay department
1 year ago
Anonymous
They have always try to make the Proto Shield his gimmick (Mega Man 7, where it is a Mega Man ability, and then 9 and 10), but it has never fully worked out.
[...]
Zero EXE does have a cool design in a Hakumen sort of way. Full armored knight characters are always cool. Just wish he showed up in other games since he canonically lives in Network Transmission. Frick, at least let him be a bonus boss, and there was that whole GBA link thing during the Gamecube era. Why didn't they take advantage of that? Like, if you linked BN3 to a GC with a Network Transmission save you get cool bonus battle with Zero, maybe even have him be the one who follows Mega Man around the Undernet and saves him from Bass instead of the random Scilab Navi
Don't get me wrong, I do like Zero.exe design, and the fact he is a full-blown virus story-wise (rather than a corrupted program, for example).
Classic Bass is pretty much all talk, Bass.EXE has at least canonically kicked Megaman’s ass once.
Many aspects, starting from a more interesting personality, better role inside the games, mysterious backstory that took several games to be explored...
And the cape. Damn it, that cape is cool. Even the guys behind that cancelled Megaman Online game understood how much better he looks with the darn thing.
Reminder that in the anime, he kills a dude and just leaves the show.
Same. I thought Slur was a girl since the first time I ever saw the character. Up to thos day, I have never understanded how Slur's gender debate started and why.
Anon, it's almost been a decade since the show aired. I don't even remember if I actually saw those episodes. I remember the fights because I loved the AMVs
Many aspects, starting from a more interesting personality, better role inside the games, mysterious backstory that took several games to be explored...
And the cape. Damn it, that cape is cool. Even the guys behind that cancelled Megaman Online game understood how much better he looks with the darn thing.
Protoman already had a cloaklike scarf in classic though, so if you gave classic bass a cloak then it just looks like he's trying to copy another existing character and make him seem even more pathetic.
>Protoman already had a cloaklike scarf in classic
I would say that depends more on the art... most of the time his scarf doesn't cover his mouth like Bass.exe's cloak does.
Sega mandating the removal of humans, government entities, and his connections to Rouge and Omega means he has nothing going for him outside of just being Bejita the Rivalhog.
His only range of emotion now is pissy for no reason and pissy because Sonic had to invoke Muh Ria's name in order to get him to stop doing something.
As much as I hate the flanderization, I do kind of like the dynamic Ian gave Shadow and Rouge in IDW where Shadow is just this unchained force and Rouge is basically his handler
>Why is it so hard to write Shadow.
His story is over
Now he's just inserted similar to Silver
If they want to write Shadow then he needs his own separate stories that just don't always lead back to Sonic.
That doesn't mean their stories can't overlap and interact at some point but Shadow needs his own characters to do things outside of what Sonic would do.
This was foreshadowed in the Semi-Hero - Dark ending of ShTH. He lives on the ARK, protects Gerald's work, and still saves the world with GUN. (who own the ARK property)
Story-wise, Shadow should have stayed dead after SA2.
He should have only returned as a guest character for games with multiplayer options, or as a skin for Sonic during replays.
People like the 06 one just because it’s the last time he was genuinely helping the heroes in a big way, in terms of personality he was flat as a board.
>in terms of personality he was flat as a board.
He was at least not being an obnoxious egotistical moron.
This is how SEGA wants Shadow to be written >Shadow is minding his own business >suddenly the plot indirectly affects him >that or the plot goes out of its way to drag him into it >the plot will induce stupidity in Shadow to stop him from ending the plot too quickly >Shadow hates being in the plot and wants to go home ASAP >the plot is over, Shadow goes home >what does Shadow do in his free time? >he picks a nice spot to stand, he crosses his arms and he broods all day
This is also why people argue that Shadow should've stayed dead.
>Current Shadow has no context, he just doesn't exist unless the story needs him to. >Sonic's a wandering hobo
Shadow is also a wandering hobo. He just looks for strong things to fight instead of cool sights and badguys to stop. He's Ryu/Akuma.
>Omega has the problem.
He spends his time destroying badniks.
Shadow only being interested in "fighting strong opponents" is fricking boring. He doesn't have a flamboyant enough personality to make it interesting, so he's basically just a walking fight scene.
>Shadow only being interested in "fighting strong opponents" is fricking boring.
Yeah, unlike the riveting motivations of >EVERYONE WILL DIE
and >I can't remember anything... Hmmm....
Please, wanting revenge for a fallen friend and wanting to solve the mystery of your existence are both WAY better than "Hey, that random stranger looks tough, better go have a dick-stroking contest with him."
1 year ago
Anonymous
>wanting revenge for a fallen friend and wanting to solve the mystery of your existence
These are insanely charitable reads of SA2 and SH while you're in the middle of being dismissive of the equally hackneyed wandering warrior's spirit hook.
Like seriously, frick off. None of these are good motivations by themselves. The issue is the quality of the writing, not the character direction. Nobody's giving Akuma shit for this.
>But Street Fighter is DUMB and has BAD WRITING!
I hear you preparing to respond. Like Sonic's any different?
1 year ago
Anonymous
The whole "I must challenge powerful opponents! I live only to fight!" shit is the most bog-standard shonen rival motivation ever, and it doesn't fit with a dude who supposedly had this big arc where he comes to terms with his tragic past.
At least with the "revenge" or "amnesia" backstories, that opens up the possibility of interesting interactions with other characters. If Shadow's whole motive is WAKU WAKU I WANNA BE THE GUY then he's got no reason to bother involving himself with other people unless they're his next big opponent or whatever.
Just have Shadow want to protect the world so that he can fulfill Maria's wish. Him being a superhero, whatever the reason, will at least give him some reason to involve himself with other characters and some motive beyond ego-stroking.
1 year ago
Anonymous
They had a good thing going with "Shadow wants to protect the earth just as much as Sonic does, but with more extreme and darker methods" that his own game, Battle, X, and Archie did. And they fricked it up for no reason
Still, "wanting to fight strong opponents" isn't entirely a bad motivation for Shadow, after all, why not have some fun in his duty as a protector? Plus it gives him a reason to fill the "Rival" role by having him and Sonic test each other. Like you said, it just shouldn't be his primary motivation.
1 year ago
Anonymous
Agreed. Him enjoying battle is a fitting personality trait, but it doesn't work as his entire reason for existence.
>Shadow want to protect the world so that he can fulfill Maria's wish. Him being a superhero, whatever the reason, will at least give him some reason to involve himself with other characters
What the frick would he wanna do that, he got over being tied to Marias wish in his own wish and goes his own path.
Final True endingbof his own game, he tosses a pgoto of him, Maria and Gerald away and chooses to walk towards his own future defined by non guilt and purposes of others.
What-the-frick-ever, just come up with something that gives him a reason not to brood on a fricking clifftop all day.
>that opens up the possibility of interesting interactions with other characters
Yeah like in SA2 and Heroes where he would... be a c**t to Sonic and act angsty and quiet.
Nothing actually changed. You're just asshurt that your fanfic of Shadow growing to not be a c**t isn't canon.
>You're just asshurt that your fanfic of Shadow growing to not be a c**t isn't canon.
Gosh, it's almost like those one-note brooding Shonen rival characters get boring after a while.
1 year ago
Anonymous
>Gosh, it's almost like those one-note brooding Shonen rival characters get boring after a while.
b***h this is a MASCOT FRANCHISE.
Character development beyond a first or second appearance is never a thing. These are archetypes with highly marketable designs slapped on. That is all Sonic as a brand has ever been. It's flirted with long term writing before but always goes back to basics.
People keep acting like things have changed, but the reality is that nothing has changed and these fans refuse to accept that the franchise won't grow up with them. They saw flickers of a long term epic in bits and pieces of old media and deny that they were always exceptions rather than the rule. Sonic is a vehicle for fun media and selling product. Stop pointing at its marketing consistency as an impediment and instead criticize ineffective management and poor work from the people involved. Bad Peanuts media doesn't exist because Charlie continues to fail to kick the football: it's because the people licensing and writing and rendering the new cartoon forgot what people enjoyed.
1 year ago
Anonymous
If they were gonna have Shadow stuck with a set personality, they could've settled on "Batman the grim protector" rather than "Vegetadow the moronic jobber." The first is tolerable at least.
I'm not saying that he has to be cuddly, I'm saying that he ought not to be a parody of Cell Saga Vegeta.
1 year ago
Anonymous
That's pretty much just a fandom meme, though, and didn't gain traction until Ian started writing him poorly when he could no longer spin him as having a gradual softening arc.
He acts the same in Forces as he does in Colors and SA2 and Heroes and Battle. A little less verbose, but that's everyone who isn't Sonic since Colors. Only game he's really different in is 06, and everyone is written weird there. He didn't "become Vegeta" or whatever. People just project that on to bad writing because Sega had to be the source of it because...eh?
Like Sega sucks, yeah, but this all comes off like a broad Boogeyman argument in the same vein as "Ken Penders destroyed Archie Sonic." If it's something more specific than that, that can be felt broadly and isn't easy to attribute to the writers rather than corporate manhandling, talk about it. Go into it. Step beyond an easy label and explain your thoughts.
1 year ago
Anonymous
>Only game he's really different in is 06, and everyone is written weird there.
Yeah, and that's the game where everyone says that Shadow's characterization is one of the better things about it. Really makes you think.
>Batman the grim protector >Shadow was originally based off the terminator and mewtwo, characters that are far from Batman and not as morally idealistic
Shadow is not a guy who has a no killing rule and hangs out with little boys. Hes more like the Punisher or Spawn.
I just meant in the sense that he feels an obligation to protect people and thus has a reason to fight villains other than being a dick-stroking punk.
1 year ago
Anonymous
Thanks for admitting that yeah, you're not actually arguing Shadow changed. You're arguing that you want fanon extrapolated from 06 back.
1 year ago
Anonymous
>character has an arc about getting over his past >is less of a c**t
Wow, what an incredible leap those fans made.
Besides, "canon" is not synonymous with "good writing."
1 year ago
Anonymous
Argument wasn't about whether it's good or not. It was about this "SHADOW IS VEGETA NOW" nonsense. The character's core is unchanged. Nobody, nearly a whole day later, has actually given an explanation for how he's "changed."
It's just a fricking scapegoat phrase, a convenient thing people tell themselves to simplify the issue so they don't have to think about it.
1 year ago
Anonymous
>I just meant in the sense that he feels an obligation to protect people and thus has a reason to fight villains other than being a dick-stroking punk.
I thibk Shadow protective side is the same as Sonic, has a sense to protect others who are willingly a part of his own self created moral compass. Wbich ironically gets women and Sonic saved a hellova lot of times.
1 year ago
Anonymous
See, that works. Shadow just decides to do X because of his own moral standards. That could actually give him an interesting perspective to explore.
1 year ago
Anonymous
>"Ken Penders destroyed Archie Sonic."
To be fair, this one is explained by his own attitude that make it easy for everyone to hate on him and pin blames.
Is he the sole reason Archie failed? No.
Did he even play a part in the downfall? Debatable, as, I don't have the numbers of sales pre and post reboot.
In a way, fans blaming Penders for Archie's cancellation is actually giving him a credit he doesn't deserve
1 year ago
Anonymous
At min he is 50% to blame.
The rest falls on Archie's shit organization skills, management, internal distatian for printing IP books they don't own, and the popularity of Riverdale.
Had penders never bothered to throw a fit, they would still be chugging to this day.
1 year ago
Anonymous
>Batman the grim protector >Shadow was originally based off the terminator and mewtwo, characters that are far from Batman and not as morally idealistic
Shadow is not a guy who has a no killing rule and hangs out with little boys. Hes more like the Punisher or Spawn.
1 year ago
Anonymous
>Character development beyond a first or second appearance is never a thing.
Shadow stopped having character development after his game. Debatably, he stopped after SA2 since his amnesia arc didn't really reset his personality.
The problem isn't Sega stagnating him. Hell, it's not even that they're regressing him. They just straight up turned him into something he never was.
1 year ago
Anonymous
Sure, ok, substantiate it. Talk about it.
How is the guy in Sonic Forces different?
Use your words. How is the edgy boy who taunts Sonic for no reason and picks pointless fights that jeopardize his goals different from the guy who shit talks his enemy and jeopardizes his goals doing so?
Best I've got is he doesn't have the backstory as motivation anymore. That's not a character change, that's just less focus.
1 year ago
Anonymous
Forces Shadow was not written the same way as IDW Shadow.
Forces Shadow is weird. In some ways he's actually written closer to Archie Shadow of all things. The DLC even said he was an agent on a mission from some undisclosed organization.
1 year ago
Anonymous
Forces basically has him as a GUN agent, even if that's not really canon anymore.
1 year ago
Anonymous
Forces did not estsblish GUN in that game, it doesnt exist.
1 year ago
Boco
If you count those Tailstube things as canon, they explained Eggman kicked GUN's asses and they stopped fighting back.
1 year ago
Anonymous
If you count those Tailstube things as canon, they explained Eggman kicked GUN's asses and they stopped fighting back.
They mentioned GUN in Frontiers, so it's possible they could show up again. Still, whether Shadow is working with them directly or just doing Rouge a favor or whatever is pretty nebulous.
i didnt get the sense Shadow was employed as an agent or even tied to the mission as closely as Rouge was, Shadow felt like he was going solo and wrecking shop like a rouge hero even killing the mercs instead of sparing them out of fun not for the mission.
>even killing the mercs instead of sparing them out of fun not for the mission.
What was the deal with them, anyway? Was Shadow supposed to have killed them in cold blood, or was it during a fight?
1 year ago
Anonymous
They came at him, they were fair game. You gonna fight Shadow, you better kill Shadow.
1 year ago
Anonymous
i didnt get the sense Shadow was employed as an agent or even tied to the mission as closely as Rouge was, Shadow felt like he was going solo and wrecking shop like a rouge hero even killing the mercs instead of sparing them out of fun not for the mission.
1 year ago
Anonymous
It's hard to say.
In the flashback where he beats up Infinite after killing his squad he's seemingly acting on his own, though he's briefly seen talking into his glove like he's communicating with someone.
In the present, he was on a recon mission with Rouge and Omega. Seemed pretty formal.
1 year ago
Anonymous
>In the present, he was on a recon mission with Rouge and Omega. Seemed pretty formal.
Shit like this is confusing, but it could be like Sonic, Shadow keeps open communications with intell of sulport from his friends and keeps tabs on stuff. Not because of goverment actions.
1 year ago
Anonymous
That's the post I was looking for : can't expect Shakespear tier writing out of Sonic the hedgehog.
1 year ago
Anonymous
>Gosh, it's almost like those one-note brooding Shonen rival characters get boring after a while.
b***h this is a MASCOT FRANCHISE.
Character development beyond a first or second appearance is never a thing. These are archetypes with highly marketable designs slapped on. That is all Sonic as a brand has ever been. It's flirted with long term writing before but always goes back to basics.
People keep acting like things have changed, but the reality is that nothing has changed and these fans refuse to accept that the franchise won't grow up with them. They saw flickers of a long term epic in bits and pieces of old media and deny that they were always exceptions rather than the rule. Sonic is a vehicle for fun media and selling product. Stop pointing at its marketing consistency as an impediment and instead criticize ineffective management and poor work from the people involved. Bad Peanuts media doesn't exist because Charlie continues to fail to kick the football: it's because the people licensing and writing and rendering the new cartoon forgot what people enjoyed.
>"writers shouldn't try because it's le hedgehog game
people like you should be killed
1 year ago
Anonymous
There's a difference between trying and being a tryhard, you fricking baboon.
1 year ago
Anonymous
That's not what was said at all.
1 year ago
Anonymous
>People keep acting like things have changed, but the reality is that nothing has changed and these fans refuse to accept that the franchise won't grow up with them.
>They saw flickers of a long term epic in bits and pieces of old media and deny that they were always exceptions rather than the rule.
>Sonic is a vehicle for fun media and selling product.
Ok company shill.
Explain how Transformers, TMNT, He-Man, She-Ra, G.I.Joe, ThunderCats, and practically every fricking capeshitter in history manages to create good quality media for all sort of ages while still being vehicles for fun media and selling toys to kids, but Sonic seems incapable of doing this while SEGA is in charge?
>Buh M-M-MASCOT FRANCHISE
I think the word you're looking is MON FRANCHISE. A franchise dedicated to creating an ever expanding collection of brightly colored mutants for moronic kids to collect and battle.
As if Sonic being compared to Pikachu, Agumon & that cat from Yokai Watch is going to help his already flailing reputation among hardcore gamers.
1 year ago
Boco
>while SEGA is in charge?
Theres your answer.
1 year ago
Anonymous
>Explain how Transformers, TMNT, He-Man, She-Ra, G.I.Joe, ThunderCats, and practically every fricking capeshitter in history manages to create good quality media for all sort of ages while still being vehicles for fun media and selling toys to kids, but Sonic seems incapable of doing this while SEGA is in charge?
All of those got reboots and revisions, the Sonic from 1991 will NEVER go away unless the west completely nukes Japan off hte map. Japs don't rewrite their history and creations, htey just add onto it. They honor what they create and always will make time skips with new characters to preserve the origins if it comes to that.
It's likely been said ITT many times by now because I know Sonic gays and Mega Mangays are one in the same at this point, but this is what Mega Man did and worked but Sonic never did because the idea of losing Sonic to some Shadowlike protag of the future is too much of a sepekku move for SEGA to tolerate. The blue blur is quite literally all they have identity wise. Capcom has at least Street Fighter, DMC and Rez Evil.
1 year ago
Anonymous
>Japs don't rewrite their history and creations, htey just add onto it. They honor what they create and always will make time skips with new characters to preserve the origins if it comes to that.
Bullshit. Nips do reboots all the fricking time. Just look at classic manga franchises like Devilman, Getter Robo or Cutie Honey.
>The blue blur is all they have identity wise
Yakuza
1 year ago
Anonymous
>Explain how Transformers, TMNT, He-Man, She-Ra, G.I.Joe, ThunderCats, and practically every fricking capeshitter in history manages to create good quality media for all sort of ages while still being vehicles for fun media and selling toys to kids
Most of those have a worse batting average than Sonic and nothing ever actually develops in them: it all gets reset to zero after a few years. Those are perfect examples, if anything.
The way people treat Shadow is like if people kept asking why Starscream isn't a good guy anymore.
1 year ago
Anonymous
>People keep acting like things have changed, but the reality is that nothing has changed and these fans refuse to accept that the franchise won't grow up with them. They saw flickers of a long term epic in bits and pieces of old media and deny that they were always exceptions rather than the rule. Sonic is a vehicle for fun media and selling product.
This, you morons fell for fake hype. They baited you. You took the bait
Smart people stopped playing Sonic games when the gameplay went to shit. Only you kept the IP alive with the bait. While actual gamers stuck to the fan games. Just look at Frontiers. Shilled to oblivion all because Sonic did a anime move that reminded you of SMBZ or Final Fantasy Sonic while the gameplay was just as bad as Forces in the 2D stages and was just barely less trash than Forces boost stages in the 3D areas. Literally after a month people stop taking about the cancerous trashfire, because it's not a good game. It's a fanwank anime with zero self awareness of the real problem about the Sonic VIDEO GAME series.
You Black folk deserve this dogshit IP. The comics makes no sense being a thing but if it had to be a thing, it would 100% act EXACTLY like the Pokemon anime. Never changed, long winded and continuous, all to make fools buy product. It was NEVER fricking Star Wars or capeshit.
1 year ago
Anonymous
>Calls other people idiots. >Thinks external Star Wars products and DC/Marvel franchises are any different.
lol
1 year ago
Anonymous
They are, because those aren't MASCOT franchises. They are just brands. Brands, like all others, that still get merch of characters that evolve over time, but is always expected to replace other characters that tend up more popular. This is literally how this always worked in the west. Unlike sonic where all constantly used characters always gets more merch of those characters, and whenever they either introduce a new one (of which dies off in game instantly) or is based on characters that (until a game changes that like Mania) hasn't been relevant for decades, stop appearing in any media related the IP. That's how this always worked with SEGA. If the characters still has merch, I bet you that character hasn't change since their inception. They were NEVER going to create someone that "replaces Shadow" with someone better. They wanted one archetype that fits the mold they want, being what Shadow is and always has been.
1 year ago
Anonymous
>They were NEVER going to create someone that "replaces Shadow" with someone better.
I mean Knuckles was that to Mighty and Shadow was that to Knuckles, but yeah ok. Let's hyperfocus on the fact that Star Wars doesn't have a Sonic-like figure who will eternally be the center of attention and ignore that the actual comparison was in regards to >Never changed, long winded and continuous, all to make fools buy product.
All brands like this are the same. The things that Sonic being singled out for not being able to actually provide are the same things these brands can never truly provide. They'll pretend to move forward and the haul out the beloved iconography and imagery as old content is discarded. Star Wars is no better than Sonic when it comes to promising you long term payoff. Best you'll ever get is the core product being half competent at storytelling and the spinoffs to go rogue for a while before they're inevitably pulled back in line to conform.
1 year ago
Anonymous
>I mean Knuckles was that to Mighty and Shadow was that to Knuckles, but yeah ok.
That its entirely false and fabrication
Knuckles has been in every game Shadow was so there's zero evidence Shadow was suppose to replace Knuckles. The idea he replaced Knuckles "rival" role might be, but Knuckles was never SUPPOSE to be his rival since unlike Shadow Knuckles is TIED to his protector role of guarding the master emerald. This is explicitly shown in SA1 and 2 ffs. Sonic and knuckles are on all accounts, buddies that just butt heads some times because of differing motives.
And Mighty was an example of a failed character, not a replacement by Knuckles. Again, BOTH CHARACTERS appear in Knuckles' Chaotix, and was originally planned to come back in Heroes in his own team with Ray and Metal Sonic. At NO point was Mighty anything like what Knuckles represents. He was just "red bro Sonic" just like Ray was "yellow bro Sonic" that the original SegaSonic game showcased in beta footage.
> Let's hyperfocus on the fact that Star Wars doesn't have a Sonic-like figure who will eternally be the center of attention and ignore that the actual comparison was in regards to
Because, as I said Sonic ISN'T like Star Wars you reading comprehension having moron, Sonic is a MASCOT FRANCHISE. NOT a brand owned by a bigger company. It's like saying Buzz Lightyear is the mascot of Pixar despite being a subsection under Toy Story, of which is ALSO not the mascot of Pixar, just a high named brand of it.
SEGA's mascot is Sonic. That means everyone expects the same thing coming from that mascot like they expect out of the company. When devs want to try other things with their mascot without confusing their playerbase, they make spinoffs/subseries with alternative takes on the characters, like Capcom did with Mega Man. Something SEGA tried doing a times, but failed every time they try to pull it off.
1 year ago
Anonymous
You probably should have read the rest of the post instead of arguing >Star Wars IS NOT A MASCOT FRANCHISE REEEE
at someone who agrees that Star Wars isn't a mascot franchise.
1 year ago
Anonymous
>Shadow want to protect the world so that he can fulfill Maria's wish. Him being a superhero, whatever the reason, will at least give him some reason to involve himself with other characters
What the frick would he wanna do that, he got over being tied to Marias wish in his own wish and goes his own path.
1 year ago
Anonymous
When did that happen?
1 year ago
Anonymous
Final True endingbof his own game, he tosses a pgoto of him, Maria and Gerald away and chooses to walk towards his own future defined by non guilt and purposes of others.
1 year ago
Anonymous
That's fine I guess but there's still no reason Shadow should be a generic shonen rival. He doesn't care about strenght for strength's sake, he's already confident in his own power and when he fights it's because someone pissed him off (which is extremely easy to do), not because he seeks strong opponents. Flynn already simplified Sonic's character to a generic no-kill rule before salvaging it in the Surge arc by tying it back to his belief in freedom, there's no need to give another character a stock cliché personality over their real one, especially when other characters like Amy and Eggman are being developed away from their own two dimensionality.
1 year ago
Anonymous
>that opens up the possibility of interesting interactions with other characters
Yeah like in SA2 and Heroes where he would... be a c**t to Sonic and act angsty and quiet.
Nothing actually changed. You're just asshurt that your fanfic of Shadow growing to not be a c**t isn't canon.
1 year ago
Anonymous
Akuma has gotten by because he has crossed paths with stronger opponents and failed. He actually motivates Ryu and forced him to change. He's just so far beyond the every day shit that its more he disaster area than anything.
Shadow isn't the dark path sonic could take.
He doesn't cause Sonic to rethink how he approaches things.
He's just broody Sonic+ and has been stripped of anything that could make him interesting.
1 year ago
Anonymous
>He's just broody Sonic+ and has been stripped of anything that could make him interesting.
Hes actually more than that, hes what Sonic is but carried by a drive to keep finding the truth and the fighting for the meaning of something instead of just embracing freedom and chaos and having fun. .
1 year ago
Anonymous
He could have that plot point along with bettering the world because Muh-Ri-Ahhh would have wanted it. But he's just a useles tard until Sega allows him to work off his previous progress.
1 year ago
Anonymous
>bettering the world because Muh-Ri-Ahh
Nah he doesnt need to do that to be a hero. And i doubt sonic games will allow hin nuance in actually improving the world since its always go to be perpetually in danger.
This. The only other valid Shadow is the one from Battle.
Probably because at that moment they didn't give crap to continuity and just wrote him like he was in SA2 instead of Heroes.
SEGA has no idea how to handle the Sonic series in general, Shadow peaked in Adventure 2 never really recovered from Sonic Heros / Shadow The Hedgehog games.
This is how SEGA wants Shadow to be written >Shadow is minding his own business >suddenly the plot indirectly affects him >that or the plot goes out of its way to drag him into it >the plot will induce stupidity in Shadow to stop him from ending the plot too quickly >Shadow hates being in the plot and wants to go home ASAP >the plot is over, Shadow goes home >what does Shadow do in his free time? >he picks a nice spot to stand, he crosses his arms and he broods all day
This is also why people argue that Shadow should've stayed dead.
>the plot will induce stupidity in Shadow to stop him from ending the plot too quickly
They actually don't want this one. It's what bad writers do to accommodate for him.
Because they always settle for "good enough." They put brand image over story quality. They don't actively want shit stories, but they'll approve them so long as products come out on time and on brand.
It's a question that extends to the entire cast frankly. Flynn has gotten softer than during his Archie tenure for what I can only assume to be muh mandates, and so he writes everyone to be slightly more subdued. Sonic goes from tryhard to Superman, Shadow goes from broody edgelord to Bejita (forma de erizo), Amy is the stronk levelheaded leader and so on. It's not bad but the peak of Sonic writing is when everyone has a certain youthful energy to it. They're teenagers, not smarmy 30-something capeshit characters, so they should act like hotheaded teens. "But it's cringe", yeah, that's what made them popular in the first place. Not everything needs to be for everyone.
Alternatively he's out of touch and a bit lazy.
A lot of his thoughts on Sonic are holdovers from the 00s or just going along with popular fan opinion.
cause people are afraid of leaning into the edge now even tho thats what the people want, frick the neckbeards online
YES Shadow uses guns occasionally
YES he rides a motorcycle even those his base speed is far superior
why?
because he FRICKING CAN
what the people want, frick the neckbeards online, but there is also the issue of people thinking Shadow is incapable of being funny or good natured, when he definitely is, and his lack of a real goal
and that's the thing people keep comparing him to Vegeta but Vegeta had new goals and storylines after he moved on from the death of his race, what exactly is Shadow's point of existence after moving on from Maria's death?? i say they continue with the finding of meaning life and why the frick he sonic and co exist shit and give him a new waifu to chase, some female GUN agent who follows him around or some shit idk but yea thats my way of fixing Shadow
Nah. Knuckles is too wound upz manipulated and unfocused around her, Shadow can keep up with her mentally and morally and actually excite Rouge as a teammate and as a friend.
Making fun of edgy stuff I feel was warranted at one point, but I feel like it was part of a bad trend where now literally anything with any degree of harshness or dire tonality is considered to be "edgy"
I feel as though the term "edgy" has gone from meaning >"Empty shock value."
To >"I'm offended by literally anything harsh. Don't wrongthink and go against my puritanical, sheltered ideals."
The term is 100% a thought terminating cliche and an American corpo buzzword, because the only time you ever see it get used is in reference to harmless pop media and not towards anything genuinely pushing boundaries.
Shadow on his own isn't too edgy (Shonen rivals are a thing) but the Shadow video game was. >amnesia plot from Jason Bourne >cyberspace level like this is the Matrix >evil aliens like Halo or Independence Day >government conspiracies
It was like a hackneyed mishmash of everything that was considered cool in the 2000s, with all the sincerity of a Mountain Dew commercial.
Sonic Adventure 2 >Introduce character >Market him as a big new villain >Game comes out and character is given context and is revealed to actually just be misguided and angry, not evil >Character (that was meant to be a one-off) completes his arc, redeems himself, and dies
Sonic Heroes >OOPS turns out we made the most popular character our company owns aside from our literal mascot >Revive him >Spend all game explaining how and why he survived >Give character friends and a new purpose in life so character has more room to grow
>EDGE era
>Be SEGA >Make dogshit decisions >Listen to fans that want Sonic to have a gun
Shadow the Hedgehog >Get rid of the writer responsible for making the character beloved (Shiro Maekawa) >Replace him with soulless company man Takashi Iizuka >Chase trends of the day >End up with the first truly horrible Sonic game
This is the point of no return
>Character becomes associated with company's downfall >Chimpanzees like Arin Hanson and countless others place blame on character >Iizuka becomes more involved in company and thus more projects turn to rushed garbage
Sonic 06 >Character is actually portrayed surprisingly well >Probably on accident >Character gets to drive the plot forward and actually behave similarly to how he behaved in the SOUL Era >The game was Sonic 06 so literally none of that matters
>Shelf character >Time passes >People that loved character originally start becoming more vocal compared to non fans like Arin Hanson >Be SEGA >Make dogshit decisions >Associate character with downfall of the franchise >Too scared to bring him back in any meaningful capacity >When character is allowed to appear, they must be written with strict mandates in effect >No character development allowed for ANY characters, let alone the one that "ruined" the franchise
as someone who only played the games are you guys also looking at the comics? I've never read a single sonic comic is there a place online one can start? Also, where should I even begin?
Here's a pastebin with links to the archive of the recent Archie Ride:
https://pastebin.com/vka9prmC
Password: 60csquNW5w
One for the STC ride:
https://pastebin.com/8uWse1Bt
Password: jUxQBUH5Hx
And for the IDW storytime:
Pastebin (contains links to archived threads and an invite to the S6 Server): https://pastebin.com/MBiqDAcg
Password: FZ9TmThMwK
You can also usually find the comics on readcomiconline.li, but you'll want like five different adblockers.
We'll get shadow again in the Sonic 3 movie in a couple of years; I wonder how they'll try and differentiate him from knuckles since they already did the "Antagonist rival for sonic" thing in Sonic 2.
Betting they'll make the black arms race be the actual villains of that movie as well and skip the bio-lizard.
>that the power of friendship won't work on.
up until the last 30 minutes of the movie when he joins forces with sonic of course; just like knuckles did.
Writers already said the main issue will be Sonic dealing with someone as strong as him that the power of friendship won't work on.
We'll get shadow again in the Sonic 3 movie in a couple of years; I wonder how they'll try and differentiate him from knuckles since they already did the "Antagonist rival for sonic" thing in Sonic 2.
Betting they'll make the black arms race be the actual villains of that movie as well and skip the bio-lizard.
Do you think they will do the whole SA2 story in one movie ? Would be bloated, but 2 movies would be too much. Just like The Hobbit movie
No. iirc that was an american-exclusive poll that was years and years ago, wasn't a character based one but a vote on who should get a spinoff game, and he actually only tied with Eggman for that.
But other than that not very certain. There's been a bunch of polls recently from Japan from America and even from nintendo and absolutely all of them have really different results. One of them had Amy as the most popular character. But the general trend is that Shadow's popularity has dropped a lot, most often he's not part of the top 5 anymore
Can we stop with the DBZ comparisons? Nobody who isn't trolling thinks Sonic wasn't lifting from Dragonball. The point is that Shadow-as-Vegeta sucks and a lot of people want him to go back to how he was presented from Adventure 2 to 06.
yeah but you can do that kid-friendly or whatever sonic cartoons are considered. just have him blow something up or punch something isntead of murdering someone. You know, get results after he gets fed up with Sonics shit. Not just, be angry for angers sake.
Shadow's funniest moments were when he said murder was the answer to bullying, when he killed Daffy and Bugs for screwing over his plan, and when he killed a village of innocents because he thought the other Slaiyers weren't taking things as seriously as he did.
Yeah, and I dont see how you couldnt translate this into the comics TO A DEGREE.
It will never be as funny as Lazers shit, thats just not doable. Theres no guys with no ears. but it would be better as the current "we have no idea what to do with him" shit.
So which show was Forces ripping Infinite off from? I can't remember any popular shows in the last 15 years where the villain acted like a chuunibyou who hid one of their eyes.
I immediately regret asking this question.
Like, I'd've settled for Gaara, but for frick's sake, get this moron away from me. He's already ruined My Hero Academia.
>Three Obitos
I still have no idea on what you're talking about.
Shigaraki, Dabi, and Kurogiri all have distinguishable traits from Obito in how they're executed.
1 year ago
Anonymous
How the frick is Dabi like Obito?
1 year ago
Anonymous
He's an identity reveal that everybody saw coming.
1 year ago
Anonymous
I remember how people were mad that they saw the Obito reveal and wanted it to be someone else.
1 year ago
Anonymous
Hardly unique to Obito. Not like Dabi had any red herrings regarding his actual identity, like how everyone treated Tobi as Madara for the longest time
I don't understand your point. Shadow isn't even the main character in his game and he almost beat the main character in one of the 3 most prolific FF games of all time. That's a good thing for Shadow fans. It's 2004 though so...
again Shadow not the protagonist of his series is put up against the main character and most well known character from the heralded Mother franchise and almost beats him in a poll. What are fans of shadow suppose to be mad about. If it was 30-70 or 80-20 for a character like Get I'd understand, but this.....
LOL you think Ness draws his popularity from Earthbound and not Smash Bros
1 year ago
Anonymous
shouldn't this be a conversation saved for Cinemaphile?
1 year ago
Anonymous
Shouldn't this whole thread be on Cinemaphile and not Cinemaphile?
1 year ago
Anonymous
The subject of how Shadow is written largely affects the comics as you can tell from the OP. Sonic in general is a little bit of every board really.
1 year ago
Anonymous
Speaking of Cinemaphile issues, how's Sonic Prime? Is it good?
1 year ago
Anonymous
I like it, but the worlds are kind of barren but the character interactions are what we are here for anyway and they are top tier, also the action is good.
1 year ago
Anonymous
It's like if Sonic Forces was a show.
1 year ago
Anonymous
wasn't sonic forces bad..... Sonic prime is good though alot of interesting things to keep you watching.
1 year ago
Anonymous
Yeah it's more like Boom if you traded setting and most of the meta humor for a sci-fi plot.
Maybe make the quills smaller and remove the shoulder bades + buttcape? The bulkier forelimbs are the things I'd want to keep the most in a default Modern design
I think we can all say Shadow needs to be improved with some depth, but not to the final fantasy levels he possesed in 06 and archie. This is Sonic after all, every character should be generally simplistic and well established on 1 or 2 traits that open new stories to explore their characters and the world around them. Shadow's emotional range should be vague and mysterious, just like him. Subtle not exaggerated like in Archie. His actions and sense of purpose should be similar to Sonic, its self imposed independance on things he thinks is right, but unlike Sonic he does not waver and sees things through stubbornly even if it kills himself or everyone around him.
He doesnt like small talk and says whats needs to be said, but he does exchange casual conversation the type of people who dont waste time and are elegant if not professional in their jobs. He views the strong worthy of a fight since he does want to excell generally as the ultimatr lifeform and ignores the weak, not to near vegeta levels but enough to dismiss them without offending them
Fans don't even know what htey want him to be
Some just want some "he can be fixed uwu" typical edge 2000s character that women like, or they just want what those DeviantART OCs that are overpowered tacoball tier broken that make the official Sonic characters look like pathetic ants.
With how people reacted to Surge, I'm convinced it's mostly the latter.
ENOUGH OF THIS SHIT TALK. Let's argue about when Shadow was at his best game, TV show, or comic. I'll go first.
Best in TV: Sonic X
Best in video game: Sonic 06
Best in comics: TGT
It really is. A fun concept executed about as poorly as it could possibly be. >Shadgeta the Jobber >constant crying and angst >bringing the Zeti in for no real reason >stretches on for TWENTY FRICKING ISSUES
What an awful arc. I can't believe anyone likes IDW.
The problem with IDW is that basically the whole comic IS filler.
None of the villains are remotely menacing. None of the arcs go anywhere or explore anything interesting. It takes eleven issues to introduce Surge and Kit, and they still don't come across as a threat at any point.
There's a 4-issue mini devoted to a plotline about the crying OCs battling an evil octopus with the amazing power of owning a knife.
It's better than just a regular old knife, dummy.
It's a knife that he's not allowed to stab anyone with.
1 year ago
Anonymous
Truly, a villain to make Sonic tremble.
Maybe that one perv that wanted Lanolin to secretly be Mimic was onto something. Having him screw over the Restoration from inside would be pretty funny.
you act as if they never try to be funny with Shadow since he's not always a serious character or they have fun with how serious he is, also the last fricking thing we need in fiction is more irony poisoning
I mean it's not impossible to give him funny stuff without diminishing his character, you just have to balance/be restrained like Knuckles in the Sonic 2 movie or Eggman at his best when he can be threatening and comedic the turn of a switch.
>only a homosexual like Ian Flynn would fricking write Knuckles being more based than Shadow
Knuckles IS more based than Shadow
Someone who gets tricked multiple times by bat hoe thiefs and eggmen and beat up by little girls with one hammer strike is not based. Shadow puts golding hoes and little girls in their place all the time and beats Sonic is a realm above based.
Yes, we know. Shadow has to be a boring edgelord 24/7, even though that'll ironically be even funnier than if he has any softer side.
Eclispe cant scale to even Eggmans strongest robot and the Metal Sonic troopers, which Shadow one shot, lets not exagerrated, Flynn marty stu'd his Shadow OC in Shadow fall and forgot most of Shadow OP full moveset and capabilties in all his appearances for cheao suspense. Even though Shadow scales to people stronger than Eclispe as a power house
>ultra-powerful alien tougher than Rouge and Omega, who can specifically nerf Shadow's Chaos powers >Shadow beats him anyway >you're still mad
Propose a villain that you think could actually take on Shadow, right now.
He was supposed to die after SA2 and no one knew what to do with him after they brought him back. The new characterization always stops and ends at "edgy Sonic."
Eclipse was not particularly strong. He came off that way because he had powers designed to counter Shadow and only Shadow.
He could attack him mentally via the hive mind, he could shut down his chaos powers and he had a temporary hulk form in case Shadow tried to take off his inhibitor rings.
Against anyone else he was average. Even the hulk form just barely beat Omega and Eclipse collapsed from it anyway.
He was only a big threat when he had his mutant wisp babies powering him up.
>Shadow being more understood is precisely what happened. I’m reminded of a scene in an upcoming issue where in the original draft Shadow acted without explaining himself, only giving an aggressive, confident response to his team-mates. This isn’t how I would have liked him to handle the situation. But in previous issues, this is how I’ve been asked to write him… so that’s what I did.
>So you can imagine my delight to get the script back from SEGA with the request to have him instead explain his reasoning when it makes sense to do so and to showcase his intelligence, pragmatism, and capacity for strategy in the future. Not only does this make him much more workable within storylines, it helps make it clear that his “pride” is, from his perspective, a non-judgemental statement of fact and not an ego trip. It’s also an honest reflection of reality– 99 out of 100 times he really IS that good.
>Shadow being more understood is precisely what happened. I’m reminded of a scene in an upcoming issue where in the original draft Shadow acted without explaining himself, only giving an aggressive, confident response to his team-mates. This isn’t how I would have liked him to handle the situation. But in previous issues, this is how I’ve been asked to write him… so that’s what I did.
>So you can imagine my delight to get the script back from SEGA with the request to have him instead explain his reasoning when it makes sense to do so and to showcase his intelligence, pragmatism, and capacity for strategy in the future. Not only does this make him much more workable within storylines, it helps make it clear that his “pride” is, from his perspective, a non-judgemental statement of fact and not an ego trip. It’s also an honest reflection of reality– 99 out of 100 times he really IS that good.
This reads like the people in licensing keep trying to steer Shadow towards a middle ground and the writers take the suggestions as "FULL FORCE LEFT OR RIGHT."
Reminds me of the story of Miyamoto suggesting that Metroid Prime let you view the world through "different eyes." The team had no idea what the frick he meant so they incorporated the visor system, which Miyamoto was apparently very happy with.
I'd sooner side with the writers on this than the suits up in corporate. If it tool the latter this long to course correct, it's plain they were content with the results up until very recently.
>I'd sooner side with the writers on this than the suits up in corporate.
Considering the writer in question is framing this as both sides understanding each other better, it sounds to me like you don't actually care what she says and just want an easy scapegoat.
It comes off as if their contacts give them pointers devoid of context and then go "Yeah, frick it, good enough" when it comes back for a second pass. Evan's saying this is the first time she's approached writing Shadow from what she thought was the company stance, but then the licensors respond with "that's too far, reel it back in." It seems like she took the pointers as hardline stances rather than suggestions relative to her prior drafts. This is both on her for assuming it was that dramatic and on her contacts for not being clear and thorough enough with their feedback. Or hell, they could have just changed their minds. Less likely given the evidence, but still possible.
But nah, you're right, let's turn this into another ONE SIDE GOOD ONE SIDE BAD shitfest because it's easy to call one side corporate.
I understand you want to win an internet argument, but "comes off like" and "seems like" are opinions. It's not projecting to tell someone what you think makes sense.
Frick of a lot more honest than saying you'd rather trust the writer while ignoring what she said.
Is it even possible to have a good discussion about the massive amount of Sonic animation and comic book media? Any thread inevitably devolves into
>fandom wank >drama about current products >weird assertions that things are inherently bad because of some personal ideal for the larger franchise >Memes and fanbase talking points drowning out personal opinions
Like how are you even supposed to discuss the comics *as comic books* or the animations *as animation* underneath all this fandom nonsense?
Because the only good way to write shadow is him out of the story
The problem with Sonic's side-characters is that people play Sonic games for their fast-placed gameplay, which kinda precludes things like stupid sidequests and mini-games where you play other characters.
You could kinda get around that by having a game where you play half as Sonic and half as Shadow and they play the same, but it'd just be a reskin and come off as lazy.
Can you call Shadows gameplay a reskin of Sonic if hes meant to play as him equally, hes the guy who introduced the speedy rail and point system with Sonic in his debut
I just mean that it wouldn't fool anyone that playing as either Shadow or Sonic really varied the gameplay that much. It wasn't meant as a jab at either character.
>You could kinda get around that by having a game where you play half as Sonic and half as Shadow and they play the same, but it'd just be a reskin and come off as lazy.
But that's literally the argument against SA2 being shit for NOT doing that and forcing people to play shitty ass RNG hunting with siht level design or mechs with tank controls in a Sonic game.
Beats me. I figure he should just be freaking out because he has no reason to exist and top himself because he wants to control his own destiny. I have no clue why this bad idea of a character is still around.
The mandate that Shadow has to act like a parody of Vegeta.
Apparently it might be a myth:
Relevant possible good news: https://board.sonicstadium.org/news/comics/idw-writer-evan-stanley-reveals-new-more-workable-guidelines-for-shadow-r292/
>Shadow being more understood is precisely what happened. I’m reminded of a scene in an upcoming issue where in the original draft Shadow acted without explaining himself, only giving an aggressive, confident response to his team-mates. This isn’t how I would have liked him to handle the situation. But in previous issues, this is how I’ve been asked to write him… so that’s what I did.
>So you can imagine my delight to get the script back from SEGA with the request to have him instead explain his reasoning when it makes sense to do so and to showcase his intelligence, pragmatism, and capacity for strategy in the future. Not only does this make him much more workable within storylines, it helps make it clear that his “pride” is, from his perspective, a non-judgemental statement of fact and not an ego trip. It’s also an honest reflection of reality– 99 out of 100 times he really IS that good.
Looks like the IDW writers just took SEGA's guidelines too literally or something, and so now SEGA is asking them to ease up a bit.
>Looks like the IDW writers just took SEGA's guidelines too literally or something, and so now SEGA is asking them to ease up a bit.
That doesn't make sense. If SEGA was displeased with how IDW was interpreting their guidelines they would have said so from the start.
Anon, there is literally no point in having guidelines if they not only can be interpreted wrong, but the wrong interpretation is approved for years before the company realizes something's up.
You're trying to pin the blame on IDW's writers but your theory only makes SEGA look incompetent.
How do we know that? Also, I've always been confused as to what's the official explanation to certain urban stages like Grand Metropolis from Sonic Heroes.
Now thinking about it, the Adventure games were set in the present day, Heroes had some futuristic stuff and Riders was full on futuristic.
All the Sonic cast really needs to appease most people, from classicgays to adventuregays to boostgays, is this: >Sonic >Tails >Knuckles >Amy (unfortunately) >Eggman >Shadow >Rouge >Sage if they HAD to give Eggman someone to bounce off of. Cubot/Orbot fricking suck
it isn’t. it is just that sega wants him to be vegeta 2.0
Why?
>Why?
>Why is Sonic Team run by morons
Truly is a mystery anon
>Why?
That’s not even an answer stupid ass
Because vegeta is so popular, Toriyama went from "Hes gonna be a one-off guy that gets killed" to "Goku is now permanently stuck with him, and Picolo gets shafted in not getting that role"
>Toriyama went from "Hes gonna be a one-off guy that gets killed"
Wasn't the plan to make him a rival from the beginning?
Only for a arc or two at most. He modeled Vegeta after his old Dorm/room-mate that he hated.
>Only for a arc or two at most
That makes it sound like the plan was to have him die in the Frieza Saga, not be a one-off villain.
Does anyone know what exactly Toriyama said about Vegeta's creation?
As said in
>Yeah, I guess I like Piccolo the most after all. Out of all the enemies, Demon King Piccolo is the one I like most, and even after that I like Piccolo the most. I like Piccolo about the same as I like Goku. With Vegeta, well, I don’t like him all that much, but he was extremely helpful to have around.
also
is a Panel from a Aniversary manga he did. So its his words there too. Lemme see if I can find the full page.
But yeah chances are if Vegeta wasnt so popular he would have died permanently on namek
Frick no, Toriyama is notorious for not planning for shit when it comes to Dragon Ball. He literally spent most of the series making it up as he went along, and it really shows in a lot of areas.
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/daizenshuu-2-akira-toriyama-super-interview/
No. Toriyama changed a lot of thing on the fly.
The best known one was how his editor made him change the Androids final boss several times : Gero and the Fat dude (they look stupid ! Change that !), 17 &18 (what ? Teenagers ? Nah, give me something like Frieza) , then Cell (of course, he can transform).
The [parentheses parts] are real quote from Torishima, his first editor.
Just like Shadow in a sense.
isn’t that what knuckles is for?
kinda confused here.
not an actual sonic fan and don’t waste my life with furry shit.
Knuckles hasn’t been a rival to Sonic in 20 years.
Knuckles is Piccolo
I was going to say this. Knuckles really fits Piccolo more.
Sonic: Goku
Amy: Chichi
Knuckles: Piccolo
Shadow: Vegeta
Silver: Trunks
Tails: Krillin
Tails is obviously Gohan, I have no idea how people can mistake him for Krillin.
It’s just cause he’s the sidekick/best friend
Krillin was a rival/friend that quickly got powercreeped by Goku, he never saw Goku as a big brother or parental figure.
It becomes clear if you watch DB.
He certainly isn't Bulma because he didn't give any tech support to Sonic during the 2D era.
He was just the kid character.
I mean Krillin by the Cell saga was already a married dude, if anything he reminds me of Antoine because both are weak rivals who ended up marrying a blonde robot.
Tails never saw Sonic as a parental figure either.
and Tails does bring tech support in the 2d era. His emerald radar is literally based off of Bulma's Dragon radar, 1:1
Tails was always the tech support, he was never just "the kid character". That was only in Archieshit.
Well if you just want to nitpick my post for your silly argument then you're free to do so.
But to do so you have to ignore who those characters are and how they behave in their own stories completely.
Nobody normal will look at Tails and say "Yeah, that's Sonic's Bulma."
Krillin could make more sense but Tails is too much of a kid, even his origin story involves him being taken under Sonic's wing and seeing in him a role model he wants to emulate.
and Tails is way too smart to be Gohan, considering he employs tech to boost him in all his combat since Triple Trouble.
Plus regardless of being a "kid", Tails always took part in the adventures side by side with Sonic, just like Krillin did. His age never affected his actions, which was being the fighting friend since day 1. Unlike Gohan who was never a fighter until he had to be forced into fighting. Tails neevr went under a training arc or any shit to be able to fight, he was fighting as Sonic's partner since the day they met.
>Nobody normal will look at Tails and say "Yeah, that's Sonic's Bulma."
I would, considering, you know, he literally uses tech that's based on Bulma
Bulma didn't make that, idiot. She reverse engineered it from the Frieza Force.
You're looking at two completely different characters with abyssally different personalities and thinking they're the same because of the trinkets they use.
Tails smarts don't make him any more mature than Gohan however, but I think you're right when you say that he also doesn't fit Gohan perfectly because he's been adventuring with Sonic from the start.
At the end I don't think he fits perfectly as any of those characters but if I had to pick one that he would be closer to it would surely be Gohan simply because his character arcs constantly seem to revolve around things like maturing and trying to be more like Sonic. Neither Krillin nor Bulma ever had those types of struggles as defining parts of their characters.
>Up until Buu, Krillin was Goku's best friend.
I agree but they did have a rivalry when they first met in DB.
Because of their skillsets*
Bulma is the genius tech support and vehicle transport. Tails is the genius tech support and vehicle transport.
Gohan is a moron compared to Tails and has no skill with technology at all. Bulma and Tails have comparable intelligence and ability with tech, and are in fact the people to do with all the protagonists' tech. That's why they're similar.
Even if you want to reduce your comparison to skillsets it still falls apart because Tails not only is able to keep up with Sonic but also go through the same games by himself without any help from extra tech unlike Bulma that was never a fighter like Goku and at best gave support from the sidelines usually with her guns.
I honestly don't know where you want to get with this.
And to add to this, Tails doesn't have a vegana either. I think.
>Tails doesn't have a vegana either.
>"Not like that has ever stopped me"
>t. Sonic
Sonic is for Shadow
It's more accurate to say that he's a composite of Krillin and Bulma
More like Gohan and Bulma, he literally was an inspiration for the creation of Tails, Krillin was a non-factor.
He was an inspiration for Tails and Sonic’s intended relationship. That’s like saying Sonic is based on Piccolo because that’s what the guy said as well.
Krillin has more in common with him. Tails was never Sonic’s student, or trainee, or son. He’s Sonic’s old friend and partner from their first adventures. That’s Krillin.
Krillin despite being a midget was always Goku's peer in terms of age and general maturity, but got quickly powercreeped as Goku grew stronger through the series.
Tails is full of potential, shown by how he can keep up with Sonic's speed despite being younger, his development doesn't come from him training and becoming stronger but by learning from Sonic's example how he should be and act.
Sonic absolutely is Tails mentor, not in a formal way but in a traditional one where he teaches through example and this is one of the reasons Tails follows him in the first place, so he can learn how to be more like Sonic.
Miss bunnie rabbot.
>weak rivals
That's your mistake. Up until Buu, Krillin was Goku's best friend.
Also, while weak compared to Goku, he was still competent. Hell, he carried Namek arc and he's the first one to do great damages to Frieza by cutting his tail.
>he carried Namek arc
LOL no, Gohan did more than him
Vegeta was the MVP but was doing solo for the first half, where Krillin carried the team (&Bulma)
He's Bulma. Sonic's first ally that's also an inventor.
This, literally his creator confirmed it.
*Kitsune is japanese for two-armed fox! - Editor
Because he’s a pathetic cuck like Krillin. Even Gohan at his lowest isn’t as lame as Tails.
careful you'll upset the people who live vicariously through him and draw him bang/ing all the girls who in canon barely talk with him...though you are wrong in him being lame
How is Krillin a cuck? He has a solid job, a hot wife, and a daughter of his own. If you wanted to go purely by being pathetic, Tails would be Yamcha or Tien.
Thought his new modern archtype is the "Local moron" of the current cast.
he really fricking his
>former mc rival replaced by a rival much more similar to the mc
>bit of loner who still hangs out with his friends a lot
>associated with magical stone(s)
>vaguely black (not really for piccolo but that jokes been there for him for years)
>Sonic is Goku
>Shadow is Vegeta
>Silver is Trunks
>Knuckles is Piccolo
>Tails is Bulma
>Kit and Surge are the Androids
See
for further instructions
That's just pointing out the how they're made you moronic jiggaboo
>don’t waste my life with furry shit.
And yet, here you are anyways,
>it is just that sega wants him to be vegeta 2.0
Worse, they want him to be Meme Vegeta .
Which Vegeta are they even imitating? His characterization has grown considerably by now.
Cell Saga Vegeta
The token douchebag teammate whose ego ends up exacerbating the problem for both himself and everyone else.
>I'm the ultimate lifeform, I'm the coolest, eat my shit and suck my--
>AAAAAAH NO DON'T COVER ME WITH ROBOT CUM, I DON'T WANT ROBO AIDS, SAVE ME SONIC
>Shadow NO!
>"SHADOW YEEEES!"
In other words, throwing his character arc from SA2 out the window.
>it isn’t. it is just that Sega wants him to be like he is in every single video game he's ever been featured in.
Fixed.
nope
he isn't. Vegeta is a manlet who sulks in the corner and will always be inferior to goku. Shadow has always been portrayed as on Sonic's level if not greater in skill, power, and wisdom. Vegeta's aspirations are to overpower goku, Shadow's aspirations change from iteration to iteration.
The IDW comics have him as a malding prideful moron that goes on about being the Ultimate Lifeform like Vegeta goes on about being the Prince of all Saiyans.
This is why I wish they allowed Metal Sonic to speak more. Have him be the malding one with the autistic desire to defeat Sonic (since, you know, that's literally why he was created) and give Shadow his old characterization back
>Shadow his old characterization back
Shadow is still the same brooding unpleasantly prideful loner he started off as in SA2.
Is this all stuff in the comics? cause in the games he does not come off that way. Also are the comics cannon? seems like most people into sonic don't even read the comics
Asking about canon in Sonic is your first mistake
The games just don't use him anymore.
well aside from the Tv shows and the games where else is he depicted? the comics?
Yeah, that was Shadow until 2006 or so. Since then he's just meme Vegeta.
Boom even made fun of this when he said "you're a disgrace for the hedgehog race Sonic !".
So they want him to be a good character? Why aren't they writing him that way?
vegeta isn't a good character gtfo weeaboo
who are these people and why should I care? there i no poll lol
>vegeta isn't a good character gtfo weeaboo
you take that back.
>using the opinions of Mexicans as a way to discern taste
Anon you are proving my point
Mexicans are the truest fans of Dragonball you dumbass
so I will not be listening to their opinions on Vegeta because he is a shit character.
the opinions of Mexicans as a way to discern taste
Worse, Argentinos jajaja
There's no distinction between a Mexican and an Argentinian. All Latinos are Mexican. Unless they're Brazilian, in which case they may or may not be Russian.
Sounds like the IDW run. Is Potto writing this, too?
>Is Potto writing this, too?
Worse, Man of Action.
Never heard of them before.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_of_Action_Entertainment
>Founded by the guy who wrote early 00s Superman
>Ben 10
>Avengers EMH
>Mega Man: Fully Charged
Not seeing the issue here.
Also, Megaman had a recent cartoon? I never knew that before.
He's an advisor on it actually
A good dad?
One that beats kids from the future
Unironically TGT is my favorite versions of him. The random try hard edge mixed with subtle moments of softness is so god damn good.
In one panel, he'll call someone a fat fricking batsard and then stab them to death laugh, and then in the next, he's knitting a sweater.
Archie comics Shadow was a pussy.
No he wasn't you fricking moron.
>Shadow gets captured by Locke, immediately breaks out and kicks his ass
>Team Dark beats Faust
>Shadow is the only character to hurt Enerjak
>Shadow trashes Snively’s Egg Lobster in one hit when it was beating up Knuckles
>Shadow beats up Sonic in an even fight during the Not!Gamma arc
>Shadow effortlessly trashes Team Rose and curbstomps Amy in Treasure Team Tango
>Shadow and Sonic and Scourge effortlessly beat Octobot and Crocbot (Tails’ villains) while every other vharacter, Tails included, sits on the sidelines and cheers about how amazing and cool and better than them they are
>Shadow trashes an entire army of Neo Metal Sonics by accident
>Shadow beats up Eclipse, and then kills Black Death and an entire army of Black Arms during Shadow Fall
>Shadow fights Knuckles to a standstill even while being mindfricked by Eclipse
>Shadow and Knuckles beat the crap out of Naugus
Archie Shadow got a bajillion little feats and badass moments, despite being a secondary character in a comic with a billion characters. Half the Freedom Fighters didn't get as many good moments as Shadow, and they were the main cast.
And yet Shadowgays still b***h because even that wasn't enough.
>Locke called him a pussy ass vegetable and not as stronger as Knuckkes with the chaos force
>He and the rest got as far because Faust fricking held back and didnt thought obliterate them on the spot
>Shadow did not hurt Enerknux, after that pussy ass chaos blast, he was dowb for the count, Sonic insultrd him for the effort to add insult to injury
>Beating up Amy Rose and bragging about it is like saying Knuckkes beat up Tails with pride, if Shadow took down Blaze that would be more impressive. Shadow should have took down all three effortlessly, he has time manipulation.
>Sonic and his recolors bullied a fodder robot, but Shadow got rocked by Scorge twice even with Sonics help.
>Shadow and Metal Sonic job the same as each other so whatever
>Shadow kamikazed Eclipse and nearly died if Rouge didnt save his sorry emo ass, the fact that Shadow had to struggle against a oppennt weaker than Scourge and Sonic is an insult to his character
>Shadow got tossed and roughed up the most and his teleport spam was countered to the point he got thrown to another side of the fricking land like a football, he was Knuckles b***h and only a homosexual like Ian Flynn would fricking write Knuckles being more based than Shadow, hes Ians favorite character also
>Nagus is weak, even Bunnie kicked his ass
Shadow was a total punk and crybaby jobber. He only got two good moments and(Beating Sonic and being king of mobius) thats it. He was worthless and lame and many characters like Sonic made fun of him for it. That is not the Shadow i know and loved.
>Locke's headcanon
>Faust is a God and Team Dark still punked him
>Enerjak is also a God and even Super Sonic couldn't beat him
>Amy is a main cast member and there was a massive chaotic battle with her, Blaze, and the Babylon Rogues going on
>Scourge is Sonic with a power boost
>killed a WHOLE ARMY of Metal Sonics
>Eclipse can cancel out most of Shadow's abilities and still lost
>Eclipse can cancel out most of Shadow's abilities and he still fought Knux to a draw
>Naugus is a powerful wizard who was mindfricking Omega and Shadow explicitly couldn't use Chaos blast without bringing the cave down on them, also Bunnie is a powerful cyborg
All of your points are just whiny nitpicks and expecting Shadow to be an unstoppable Mary Sue.
I bet you're a big Steven Seagal fan.
>Locke is pretty much ken penders/writer in disguse
>Team Dark couldnt overwhelm him or rival him, while Faust was toying with them and not taking them seriously, they were the punks trying to get one over hin instead of actually intimadating him and being writen as capable of fighting him equally on their own terms, if Shadow had all 7 chaos emeralds to begin with, this wouldnt be a challenge for Team Dark
>Amy is the the weakest of the main cast, even in archie where she got a buff with the iron king she should not even convienance Shadow or Omega, hell all against him, none of them can stop Shadow freezing time and killing them instantly
>Shadow is Sonic with a power boost and somehow dbz like power like zenkai and more anime bullshit, Scourge being only Sonic shouldnt be enough.
>Metal Sonic armies have been soloed by Sonic before, nothing special
>Eclipse has not the speed or raw power to even slow Shadow down. And against it was a one sided beatdown from Knuckles ones he said Sonic was stronger.
>Shadow should have the power to counter nagus skills with chaos powers and ya know raw plot breaking spèed/power being as fast as Sonic.
Shadow has to be nerfed to have other characters go toe yo toe with him equally or better than him since all his powers and capabilities arent used in the comic to their fullest extebt while several other characters get non canon buffs and all sorts of pis power ups that make them as broken as a god an stronger than shadow normally is. Only Sonic sboukd scale to Shadow, not anyone else.
>Only Sonic should scale to Shadow, not anyone else.
This. He's the 2nd most powerful character for a reason.
>This. He's the 2nd most powerful character for a reason.
>power levels
>in a series of platforming games where the goal is to run
And you wonder why nobody likes Shadow.
back to Cinemaphile you disgusting slug
>And you wonder why nobody likes Shadow.
He still remains the second most popular character in the series friend.
>back to Cinemaphile you disgusting slug
But I ALREADY KISSED MY WIIIIIFEEE!!!!
Penders is a shit writer and his opinion shouldn't be taken seriously, Faust was a fricking God who can nullify Shadow's chaos powers, Scourge IS Sonic (who you admitted should scale to Shadow), and Eclipse was nullifying Shadow's Chaos powers during his fights with Shadow and Shadow's fight with Knux, and Naugus' magic powers are pretty vague in the reboot.
Shadow is repeatedly fighting enemies that are nerfing him, and still winning. It's not as bad as you're saying.
>Scourge IS Sonic (who you admitted should scale to Shadow)
Not that anon, but yes, you're correct on all points. Finally somebody says this and the obvious. Ultimate lifeforms naturally and artificial are the peak of sonic powerlevels.
>Locke is pretty much ken penders/writer in disguse
I thought Locke was Penders' personification of his daddy issues?
Shadow and Omega and Rouge all canonically got beat up by Team Chaotix, who won their fight in Heroes.
Your problem is you can’t cope with your self-insert not being treated as a powerfantasy that he most definitely is not supposed to be.
>Shadow and Omega and Rouge all canonically got beat up by Team Chaotix
Prove it.
>Shadow and Omega and Rouge all canonically got beat up by Team Chaotix, who won their fight in Heroes.
Need a citation for that one.
t. Chaotix fan
>only a homosexual like Ian Flynn would fricking write Knuckles being more based than Shadow
Knuckles IS more based than Shadow
Agreed.
>he'll call someone a fat fricking batsard
See I dont know if thats a typo or not and thats what makes it great
Lazerbot is a true Outsider Artist that took his sudden fame, criticism and influx of comments and tppk it all to heart but in a good way. Hes basically opposite Chris-Chan
His whole character was used in one game
He should've stay dead
The real reason is that SonicTeam are run by a bunch of fricking otaku whose boner for stupid space monkeys rivals that of Mexicans. So that autism bleeds into their series of kids platformers about cartoon hedgehogs.
If you ask Izuka what he wouls rather be doing, it would most likely be on the dev team of DBZ Budokai Tenkaichi 4 than making another Sonic game
don't post my goth boyfriend ever again
Because they won't let him be anything but hedgehog Vegeta.
I always thought he acted like Kaiba
Kaiba is 99% autism, 1% angst. Vegeta and shadow are closer to 50/50.
God I fricking love Kaiba
Because Shadow was created with one arc in mind but then they brought him back and didn't know what to do with him beyond being "edgy sonic"
People who say this are morons poisoned by memes. Shadow was never edgy outside of his own game.
He was a nothing character like everyone else in Heroes
He was alright in 06, maybe a bit angsty with the whole humanity betraying him plot point but still decent
Everything since he's just been emo Sonic/shitty Vegeta
>He was alright in 06
Shadow could be considered the main character of 06, since he was the only one actually doing anything related to the game's actual plot. Sonic was focused strictly on Elise while Silver was trying to figure out what ruined the future, Shadow meanwhile was actually investigating the conflict and fighting the actual antagonist.
Shadow’s arc in ‘06 was the only one close to passable, not that it’s saying much.
Shadow was extremely edgy in SA2, even moreso than in his own game.
Kids on Cinemaphile don't know that edgy wasn't an insult in 2001. Sega was catering to the public with Shadow.
He was edgy in his debut, but in a way that was typical for Japanese villains at the time (See: Sephiroth, Xion in Bloody Roar, Kazuya Mishima, etc.) it was his own game (and to a lesser extent, X) that stained his reputation among the general public as a tryhard "edgelord", that combined with him getting the only halfway decent story in '06 and the damage was already done.
lol Shadow is black and red, his spikes go up so they're extra spiky and his name is fricking Shadow. He's edgy by design
It stagnated his versatility to me, removing gun was the best thing for me, no one gives a frick about GUN or humans.
The meta-era turned him into a joke.
Removing G.U.N. and humans got rid of his purpose.
Shadow's character only ever really shines when he's paired with Cream as a surrogate big brother.
And when does that ever happen outside of fanmade content?
so when does he shoot the place up?
>The man of Shade
I like Shadow having a soft spot for kids. Considering his best friend never got the chance to really have one, it makes sense he’d bend over backwards to make a kid, like Cream, happy
hot
Would.
Is this from one of the Sonic X comics? I haven't read apart from the first 2 and the last.
"do you like it?"
>the rabbit girl asks innocently.
>Shadow scowls at the delicate wreath resting upon his brow like a princess's tiara
>Cheese recoils slightly, worried about Shadow's reaction and what it will do to Cream.
>Shadow focus on the smiling rabbit
>his eyes narrow in intensity to pin-pricks
>he grits his teeth and in a calm voice he declares
"I love it!"
Shadow being kind to Cream is pure SOVL and KINO certified.
Why do all the sonic characters wear mickey mouse gloves and massive clown shoes?
There's really just no reason for him to be around. Anything he can do can also be done by other characters.
He’s the one character who dedicated his life to protecting the world. Everyone else are free agents who only take down Eggman because he gets in the way of them.
It almost seems like even that's been taken away from him. Nowadays he apparently only cares about "fighting strong opponents" and doesn't give a shit about anything else.
He literally doesn't care about anyone or anything, and basically has no reason to do anything other than brood on clifftops all day.
>Sonic's level if not greater in skill, power, and wisdom
Srarting ti chsnge recently.
>starting to change recently
is that what you meant?
Yes.
>He’s the one character who dedicated his life to protecting the world
Which is why they made him stop that, if hes the only one determined to protector the world, then Sonic wont be much use or have a point when going on all his adventures. Shadow to me was always the anti hero awnser to Sonic, he is a hero but is completely goes about it unconvetionally and ammorally.
>Anything he can do can also be done by other characters.
Like who
Shoot gun: Omega
Literally everything else: Sonic
Omega came out in the same game as Shadow, so irrelevant.
So who else can be the dark rival of Sonic?
Shadow came before Omega did. Who was inspired by Gamma not Shadow.
>Omega came out in the same game as Shadow, so irrelevant.
Shadow debuted in Sonic Adventure 2.
Omega debuted in Sonic Heroes.
This should have been the case honestly.
If Omega were in SA2, sure, you'd never play as eggman, but it would have allowed him to be a major character like shadow and rouge. They could have tied it to the E-Series between 1 and 2 as well. Poor Omega has never been in a successful sonic game with a cohesive story at the same time, and got shafted out of appearing in Sonic X too.
>This fool thinks Heores Shadow onwards was the same one from SA2
>So who else can be the dark rival of Sonic?
Question: why the frick do we need a dark rival for Sonic?
Other Question: Why does he need more rivals? There's too many of them already, and the only thing they can rival him in is being fast. which in that case, makes Eggman his most powerful rival
>why the frick do we need a dark rival for Sonic?
Rule of Cool and its more interesting to see the wienery maverik hero get rivaled by the dark and stoic ace showing how far apart yet similar they really are.
>its more interesting to see the wienery maverik hero get rivaled by the dark and stoic ace showing how far apart yet similar they really are.
once or twice is ok. All the time, and the concept gets stale.
Better to have a rival that is straight up evil and is so unrepentant & malicious that it makes the hero get serious instead of playing around.
KOF and most shonen manga disagree
>Other Question: Why does he need more rivals? There's too many of them already, and the only thing they can rival him in is being fast.
He doesn't need any more rivals, but he could use some more straight-up villains. It's mostly just Eggman and a bunch of one-offs.
Shadow should strive to create his own secret security bureau since G.U.N is corrupt and still hasn't publicly apologized for Maria's political assassination.
Its easy if you treat him as a joke like Boom did.
This. Shadow is a living joke. That's the only way to write him.
>Shadow was a joke on Boom
Boco, i know you have shit taste but you can't think that walking black hole of charisma who ruined 2 Boom finales is actually funny, right?
The only time Shadow was funny was on Twitter and in the Lego games
HE isn't the source of the comedy. Everyone else's reactions to him is.
While his character arc definitely concluded with SA2 and he probably should've stayed dead all things considered, I think he's generally just had the misfortune of having been introduced right on the precipice of Sonic's worst decade. I'd really only call Shadow a poorly written character in his own game. Otherwise, it's usually the rest of the game around him that's shitty.
Sonic 06 is the example that always comes to my mind. The game as a whole is extremely melodramatic and generally moronic, but Shadow himself isn't really handled all that poorly. He's basically a stoic, driven character who doesn't really spend any time moping -- serious, but definitely not edgy. And I think the idea of him working more closely with GUN is a solid direction for the character. It's just that this was happening in a game where a human princess smooches a hedgehog and that's overall extremely unpleasant to play, and those are generally the sorts of games where Shadow takes center stage.
>And I think the idea of him working more closely with GUN is a solid direction for the character.
How? This shoukd never have haooebed these people killed the one person he loved and generally see him as they originally planned to use him a goverment weapon and grunt. Shadow should not be bound by anyone, that was the point of his own game. Hes too cool and overly competent to be sub servient to GUN.
Literally the next game after 05 he’s working for GUN. That’s his canon charcter. Live with it.
That game doesn't count anymore. Sega's stance now is he's never worked for GUN.
Him working for gun was only temporary, not permenant. Also he never worked for GUN as its been retconed out of existence
Because he has no motivation. In SA2, it was vengeance. In Heroes, it was figuring out who he really was. Then he got his own game and Sega retconned everything out the window. Now he's just... mad I guess?
Besides SA2, I would say the best Shadow depiction afterwards was Battle.
Battle does have a solid Shadow. Unfortunately, I don't have my Sonic folder with me right now, I have some of the great moments screenshoted.
Also Battle solidifies ShadowXRouge
>spoiler
It was a different time... a more innocent one
They didn't know what to do with the character anymore after SA2.
There's nothing for him to do. He just shows up out of nowhere for no reason and leaves. Where does go? What does he do in his down time?
It's impossible to write a Shadow-centric story because it can never have a proper beginning or an ending. He can only show up in the middle of a story, somehow already knowing what's happening and being angry about something.
Archie found a good place for Shadow in GUN. We knew where he was in-between the action, he had long term and short term goals, he could join a story with the whys and hows already covered.
Current Shadow has no context, he just doesn't exist unless the story needs him to. I mean, I know what Rouge is doing when she's not around, she's treasure hunting or doing shady government work. Sonic's a wandering hobo, Tails has his labs, Knuckles is on his island, Amy has multiple hangouts like Cream's house, Big has his hut, the Babylon Rogues have their blimp and they go robbing and shit. The fricking Babylon Rogues are better defined characters than Shadow, think about that.
Omega has the same problem btw.
>He can only show up in the middle of a story, somehow already knowing what's happening and being angry about something.
Frick, that is shockingly on point. Forces, IDW, Prime, they all have this exact issue.
Thats easy to justify, he just goes where every sonic goes "coicidently" to stop evil his own way which leads to conflict between him and sonic. He's always been a shadow twin parrelel to Sonic when Sonic needs the stakes to rise or a equal to showcase his true potential.
Easy to justify, sure, but it doesn't make it any less contrived when he doesn't really have much incentive to follow Sonic around. Sonic already has enough stalkers on his team as is.
He doesnt follow Sonic, they just hapoen to bump into to each other as per the narrative beat. Its classic rival showdown plot device, or it allows to introduce Shadow into the main narrative with the main protagonist without it being a character quirk reason.
>Current Shadow has no context, he just doesn't exist unless the story needs him to.
>Sonic's a wandering hobo
Shadow is also a wandering hobo. He just looks for strong things to fight instead of cool sights and badguys to stop. He's Ryu/Akuma.
>Omega has the problem.
He spends his time destroying badniks.
>Shadow is also a wandering hobo. He just looks for strong things to fight instead of cool sights and badguys to stop.
OK, but like, can we see that? A little glimpse of it? Shadow minding his own business before shit goes down? I know Sonic's a hobo with wanderlust because that's how we see him just before Eggman attacks. We've never seen Shadow do anything, even just traveling and fighting for the sake of it.
>OK, but like, can we see that? A little glimpse of it? Shadow minding his own business before shit goes down?
I mean we kinda got that in his own game. He just stands broodily when the camera pans over while Sonic is usually chillin or running instead. After that we got the budget era and Sonic Team can barely string a cutscene together at all. Forces kinda tried to do this but, again, budget. Shit, we haven't seen Sonic do this in years either. He's either at the inciting incident or on the Tornado as the inciting incident occurs.
Now, if you mean the comics, YEAH! THEY SHOULD DO THAT! I don't think Sega would say no!
I think this is why him working with GUN works well, gives him purpose/context he really needs
Better than him being discount Vegeta and just trying to fight strong people for his pride as the Ultimate Lifeform
I think you bring up a fair point that he really is never in, nor even works, in the beginning or the end, but more in the middle for conflict. He does work better with a “formulated mission” but maybe that was supposed to form a cloud of mystery around him? Adding to his dark Muh-Rea story?
Either way people think he’s cool, it just somehow works.
Have to say his reveal as a bad guy again in Forces was cool when then promos premiered.
>Bullshit
>If faust is that strong, why hed lose to super sonic then
>og sonic beat scourge so by that measure shadow should be scoruge
>Eclipse is still weaker or should be inferior to shadow in speed and strength since shadow is equal to sonic in thise categories, no chaos powers needed.
>thats a good way of putting the entirety of Archie, badly vague.
Shadow naturally should curbstomp everyone sonic has curbstomped. And he naturally is that powerful in canon with his power,in archie he should be greater than enerjak as the chaos force god.
Faust never even fought or met Super Sonic. You’re not only a seething manbaby, you’re a stupid one too making up your own imaginary problems to cry about.
Eclipse has stronger powers than Shadow and Omega and said this himself, including in speed and strength. And Shadow can’t use chaos powers because he blocks them. And Eclipse also has mindraping to boot. Eclipse was an objectively superior opponent in every way to Shadow, or to Sonic.
Shadow got beaten up by a mass-produced copy of Gamma in canon.
Touch grass, you whiny beta Shadowbitch.
>Bullshit
What, you love Ken Penders?
>If faust is that strong, why hed lose to super sonic then
Shadow wasn't in his Super form, and Faust was nullifying his Chaos powers.
>og sonic beat scourge so by that measure shadow should be scoruge
Scourge needed his Super form to beat Shadow the second time. The first could be considered jobbing I guess, but Scourge beat Sonic then too.
>Eclipse is still weaker or should be inferior to shadow in speed and strength since shadow is equal to sonic in thise categories, no chaos powers needed.
Eclipse is an ultra-powerful alien who was created specifically to counter Shadow, and he still lost.
>thats a good way of putting the entirety of Archie, badly vague.
It did a better job with powerlevel bullshit than some western comics do. And since continuity had just rebooted, we didn't have a clear picture of what Naugus could do.
>And he naturally is that powerful in canon with his power,in archie he should be greater than enerjak as the chaos force god.
Enerjak is more powerful than Super Sonic. Why would Archie Shadow naturally be able to beat him without a Super-form?
Lets be real there are tons of characters that can overcome archie shadow and eclipse in base. Eclipse wasnt that strong, its just Shadow was that weak compared to everyone else includibg is canon portrayals. Sonic would make short worj of eclipse. Hes beaten a weapon meant to counter his power to plenty of tines with ease.
Eclipse was far stronger than both Omega and Rouge. Archie Sonic only fought 2 robots specifically to counter him: The Egg Beater and Metal 2.5
Both of them absolutely destroyed Sonic without effort and it wasn’t even close.
Omega was the third one built specifically to defeat Sonic. If Eclipse trashed Omega, he’d have trashed Sonic too. Shadow tied Sonic before in the golden gamma arc.
Shadow wasn’t written as weak. He was written exactly how the games write him: as strong as Sonic. Eclipse was simply stronger, and Shadowmanbabies have never coped since because all these years later still none of them have felt the touch of a woman.
Eclispe cant scale to even Eggmans strongest robot and the Metal Sonic troopers, which Shadow one shot, lets not exagerrated, Flynn marty stu'd his Shadow OC in Shadow fall and forgot most of Shadow OP full moveset and capabilties in all his appearances for cheao suspense. Even though Shadow scales to people stronger than Eclispe as a power house
Eclipse literally oneshotted Omega and tore out his chaos drive in that very story you manbaby idiot. You literally did not even read the story you cry like a b***h about.
Anyone on Sonic and Knuckles level can do the same damn thing. Omegas not that powerful outside of cheap hypeless statements scaling to sealing Shadow in a vague context. Sonic if he fought Eclipse would be too fast and ubpredictable for Eclipse to adapt his forms to, Knuckles with his super inhuman strength and master combat experience would simply overoower Eclipse. Shadow is shown to equal these two evenlly and equally. It makes no sense to be written stronger than the guy whos feat scale to the strongest non god characters in the comic.
>Anyone on Sonic and Knuckles level can do the same damn thing.
So you admit that Eclipse is on Sonic and Knuckles' level.
Given that he can specifically nerf Shadow's Chaos powers, is it THAT unbelievable that he can take on Shadow?
Sonic and Knuckles have done moelre cosmic shit than either Shadow or Eclipse. Even in their base forms their fast enough to beat up god level characters like Nagus and Demtri.
Because Sonic and Knuckles had dozens of issues to show off in before Shadow even appeared in the comic?
Seriously, the comic had been running for years before Sonic Adventure 2 had even come out, Knuckles had his own spinoff, and Shadow doesn't become a recurring character until Issue #124. Of course Sonic and Knuckles are going to have more focus than Shadow.
Theres the problem then, to much escalation between long running characters new characters just seem underwhelming in comparison. Shadow came in hot as one of the heavy in the games but got introduced in a universe where hes a middle tier at best. Maybe because hes scaled to have of Sonics skills they were afraid of buffing him on any level like sonic and knuckles while not being a foundation like those two. If Shadow had became as strong as enerjak and had his own ultra form, long term fans would b***h
There was nothing wrong with Shadow in the Archie Comics prior to the shift in characterization that came with the Colors writing onward. Shadow and Tails got their shittier personalities (Tails especially in Lost World and Forces) the same time Amy started to get a good one.
At least Tails got a ton of dialogue in Frontiers more or less acting as an apology for it though.
>Shadow in the Archie Comics
Except his overly socially try hard fruendly crybaby nature and losing to people Sonic beat with ease. Sbit taste confirmed.
When did he lose to anyone that Sonic "beat with ease?" The only dudes that Sonic beat that Shadow lost to were ADAM and Super Scourge, and Sonic had to go Super to beat ADAM and trick Scourge into losing his Super form.
Its bad writing only Sonic is the only person that can fight these villains in Super Form, seriously Shadow was robbed off good final boss moments and hero moments because the super form privilages belonged to Sonic and sometimes Knuckkes. And isnt Shadow supposed be smarter and more strategic than Sonic in the games.
>And sometimes knuckles
Ironic considering knuckles hasn't been able to be relevent in decades while shadow still gets tag in super mode privilidges in games.
So can someone explain why the frick shadow would ever use a gun?
Its literally 100 times weaker than any of his attacks while also being functionally lethal at all times, so its also less flexible than any of his abilities.
Its like giving superman a glock.
Same reason they had him use a motorcycle even though he's faster (both in-game and in-universe) without it.
Rule of cool. Why would Sonic need to use Caliburn in Black Knight? He could've solo'd most of the game without him.
>inb4 King Arthur can't be defeated without muh sword
Investigate and kill the one who made the clone. Merlina would've been dead to one spindash if she never got the scabberd in the first place.
because it's cool
That's what made Shad05 so laughable though. It was just a moronic mishmash of everything that was considered cool back in the 2000s.
See
Oh god, dont tell me theres lemons about these two.
I'm interested for a laugh
>lemons
what year is it
>Shadow in a brown cloak
This awakens my inner 12 year old
why is bass.exe so much better than normal bass?
Cyber Akuma/Mewtwo hybrid is cooler than Robo Vegeta
Normal base is just a whinny b***h who is technologically stronger than MM but comes up short every time.
Thats worse than vegetia who at least has the excuse of being weaker than Goku.
In fairness, Bass at least wins fights against robots that aren't Rock.
Speaking of, Shadow never beat any Megaman robot master in the worlds collide side comic, talk about getting fricked over, that comic was just terrible for Shadow and one of the worst moments for comics peroid.
ummm no the comics weren’t bad, it is just that every sonic character not named sonic was sidelined and the megaman characters got the spotlight. worlds unite however…
>it is just that every sonic character not named sonic was sidelined
Worse, they jobbed.
>and the megaman characters got the spotlight
Not really. It was mostly Sonic beating up Robot Masters in the final stretch.
Everyone but Sonic and the villains got the shaft.
>jobbing
A fate worse than death
Didnt Knuckles and Blaze and Silver get victories over their respective counter parts?
Classic Bass is pretty much all talk, Bass.EXE has at least canonically kicked Megaman’s ass once.
Many aspects, starting from a more interesting personality, better role inside the games, mysterious backstory that took several games to be explored...
And the cape. Damn it, that cape is cool. Even the guys behind that cancelled Megaman Online game understood how much better he looks with the darn thing.
Ironic, Protoman.exe was worse than normal protoman in everyway, and yet they managed to improve on Bass.
The problem with Protoman.exe is that they tried to make him a Zero expy, instead of Protoman
and then had an ACTUAL zero character up; now that was a pointless character.
I honestly wonder how that production meeting went...
>So, for this game we plan to introduce the Battle Network version of Zero
>Wait, isn't he already in the games?
>What do you mean?
>You know, red guy with long hair who wields a sword?
>Right... how do we explain you... that's Protoman.
Zero EXE does have a cool design in a Hakumen sort of way. Full armored knight characters are always cool. Just wish he showed up in other games since he canonically lives in Network Transmission. Frick, at least let him be a bonus boss, and there was that whole GBA link thing during the Gamecube era. Why didn't they take advantage of that? Like, if you linked BN3 to a GC with a Network Transmission save you get cool bonus battle with Zero, maybe even have him be the one who follows Mega Man around the Undernet and saves him from Bass instead of the random Scilab Navi
Protoman.exe was good in that he contrasted well with megaman though, following the classic "Red rival is a melee specialist while Blue is a ranged specialist" paradigm.
That's a big problem that the classic series has in trying to fit protoman in as playable-- Bass has versatility and movement while megaman has raw power as a ranged combatant, so where does that leave Protoman? If you power, you make it harder to properly differentiate megaman with bass, and if you do glass cannon you need to find a way to give him skill based defense, and Bass already has double jumping/mobility claimed.
The best method seems to be the X series method of making black versatile in aiming, Blue raw power but "Slower" and clunkier than black, and then red as your melee character.
So in that method of thinking, Protoman.exe is "better" than normal protoman, from a gameplay standpoint.
exe also had actual bossfights, so that's another plus in the gameplay department
They have always try to make the Proto Shield his gimmick (Mega Man 7, where it is a Mega Man ability, and then 9 and 10), but it has never fully worked out.
Don't get me wrong, I do like Zero.exe design, and the fact he is a full-blown virus story-wise (rather than a corrupted program, for example).
>sequel series tries to makes their own Bass
>Exe can't be topped
At least they tried?
Reminder that in the anime, he kills a dude and just leaves the show.
I will never be used to people referring to Slur as a dude
Same. I thought Slur was a girl since the first time I ever saw the character. Up to thos day, I have never understanded how Slur's gender debate started and why.
Anon, it's almost been a decade since the show aired.
I don't even remember if I actually saw those episodes. I remember the fights because I loved the AMVs
Protoman already had a cloaklike scarf in classic though, so if you gave classic bass a cloak then it just looks like he's trying to copy another existing character and make him seem even more pathetic.
>Protoman already had a cloaklike scarf in classic
I would say that depends more on the art... most of the time his scarf doesn't cover his mouth like Bass.exe's cloak does.
Sega mandating the removal of humans, government entities, and his connections to Rouge and Omega means he has nothing going for him outside of just being Bejita the Rivalhog.
His only range of emotion now is pissy for no reason and pissy because Sonic had to invoke Muh Ria's name in order to get him to stop doing something.
I miss Max, Locke, and Towerposting.
As much as I hate the flanderization, I do kind of like the dynamic Ian gave Shadow and Rouge in IDW where Shadow is just this unchained force and Rouge is basically his handler
>write Shadow how he's supposed to be
>receive 80 page document from Sega telling you why that's wrong and demand you fix it
Gee I can only wonder why
Because he does everything sonic does, but better.
Because he's a edgelord.
He used to be codifier of the edgelord, and it wasnt a bad thing
>Why is it so hard to write Shadow.
His story is over
Now he's just inserted similar to Silver
If they want to write Shadow then he needs his own separate stories that just don't always lead back to Sonic.
That doesn't mean their stories can't overlap and interact at some point but Shadow needs his own characters to do things outside of what Sonic would do.
It would be cool to see Shadow doing missions for G.U.N or just going around with a wandering hero schtick
Id taje the second part. G.U.N sucks.
>It would be cool to see Shadow doing missions for G.U.N
The organization responsible for murdering the one of the few people he actually cared about?
He was working for them in 06 so I guess he got over it
Bad writing confirmed.
This was foreshadowed in the Semi-Hero - Dark ending of ShTH. He lives on the ARK, protects Gerald's work, and still saves the world with GUN. (who own the ARK property)
The only valid Shadow is the one from SA2.
That Shadow according to Iizuka was meant to come back reguardless and be used in more games.
Story-wise, Shadow should have stayed dead after SA2.
He should have only returned as a guest character for games with multiplayer options, or as a skin for Sonic during replays.
>Shadow dies and is remembered fondly by Adventuregays
>Shadow lives and becomes a divisive parody of himself
You're probably right.
Just because that was the plan doesn't mean it was the right call.
And 06 somehow
People like the 06 one just because it’s the last time he was genuinely helping the heroes in a big way, in terms of personality he was flat as a board.
>in terms of personality he was flat as a board.
He was at least not being an obnoxious egotistical moron.
Shadow only being interested in "fighting strong opponents" is fricking boring. He doesn't have a flamboyant enough personality to make it interesting, so he's basically just a walking fight scene.
>Shadow only being interested in "fighting strong opponents" is fricking boring.
Yeah, unlike the riveting motivations of
>EVERYONE WILL DIE
and
>I can't remember anything... Hmmm....
Please, wanting revenge for a fallen friend and wanting to solve the mystery of your existence are both WAY better than "Hey, that random stranger looks tough, better go have a dick-stroking contest with him."
>wanting revenge for a fallen friend and wanting to solve the mystery of your existence
These are insanely charitable reads of SA2 and SH while you're in the middle of being dismissive of the equally hackneyed wandering warrior's spirit hook.
Like seriously, frick off. None of these are good motivations by themselves. The issue is the quality of the writing, not the character direction. Nobody's giving Akuma shit for this.
>But Street Fighter is DUMB and has BAD WRITING!
I hear you preparing to respond. Like Sonic's any different?
The whole "I must challenge powerful opponents! I live only to fight!" shit is the most bog-standard shonen rival motivation ever, and it doesn't fit with a dude who supposedly had this big arc where he comes to terms with his tragic past.
At least with the "revenge" or "amnesia" backstories, that opens up the possibility of interesting interactions with other characters. If Shadow's whole motive is WAKU WAKU I WANNA BE THE GUY then he's got no reason to bother involving himself with other people unless they're his next big opponent or whatever.
Just have Shadow want to protect the world so that he can fulfill Maria's wish. Him being a superhero, whatever the reason, will at least give him some reason to involve himself with other characters and some motive beyond ego-stroking.
They had a good thing going with "Shadow wants to protect the earth just as much as Sonic does, but with more extreme and darker methods" that his own game, Battle, X, and Archie did. And they fricked it up for no reason
Still, "wanting to fight strong opponents" isn't entirely a bad motivation for Shadow, after all, why not have some fun in his duty as a protector? Plus it gives him a reason to fill the "Rival" role by having him and Sonic test each other. Like you said, it just shouldn't be his primary motivation.
Agreed. Him enjoying battle is a fitting personality trait, but it doesn't work as his entire reason for existence.
What-the-frick-ever, just come up with something that gives him a reason not to brood on a fricking clifftop all day.
>You're just asshurt that your fanfic of Shadow growing to not be a c**t isn't canon.
Gosh, it's almost like those one-note brooding Shonen rival characters get boring after a while.
>Gosh, it's almost like those one-note brooding Shonen rival characters get boring after a while.
b***h this is a MASCOT FRANCHISE.
Character development beyond a first or second appearance is never a thing. These are archetypes with highly marketable designs slapped on. That is all Sonic as a brand has ever been. It's flirted with long term writing before but always goes back to basics.
People keep acting like things have changed, but the reality is that nothing has changed and these fans refuse to accept that the franchise won't grow up with them. They saw flickers of a long term epic in bits and pieces of old media and deny that they were always exceptions rather than the rule. Sonic is a vehicle for fun media and selling product. Stop pointing at its marketing consistency as an impediment and instead criticize ineffective management and poor work from the people involved. Bad Peanuts media doesn't exist because Charlie continues to fail to kick the football: it's because the people licensing and writing and rendering the new cartoon forgot what people enjoyed.
If they were gonna have Shadow stuck with a set personality, they could've settled on "Batman the grim protector" rather than "Vegetadow the moronic jobber." The first is tolerable at least.
I'm not saying that he has to be cuddly, I'm saying that he ought not to be a parody of Cell Saga Vegeta.
That's pretty much just a fandom meme, though, and didn't gain traction until Ian started writing him poorly when he could no longer spin him as having a gradual softening arc.
He acts the same in Forces as he does in Colors and SA2 and Heroes and Battle. A little less verbose, but that's everyone who isn't Sonic since Colors. Only game he's really different in is 06, and everyone is written weird there. He didn't "become Vegeta" or whatever. People just project that on to bad writing because Sega had to be the source of it because...eh?
Like Sega sucks, yeah, but this all comes off like a broad Boogeyman argument in the same vein as "Ken Penders destroyed Archie Sonic." If it's something more specific than that, that can be felt broadly and isn't easy to attribute to the writers rather than corporate manhandling, talk about it. Go into it. Step beyond an easy label and explain your thoughts.
>Only game he's really different in is 06, and everyone is written weird there.
Yeah, and that's the game where everyone says that Shadow's characterization is one of the better things about it. Really makes you think.
I just meant in the sense that he feels an obligation to protect people and thus has a reason to fight villains other than being a dick-stroking punk.
Thanks for admitting that yeah, you're not actually arguing Shadow changed. You're arguing that you want fanon extrapolated from 06 back.
>character has an arc about getting over his past
>is less of a c**t
Wow, what an incredible leap those fans made.
Besides, "canon" is not synonymous with "good writing."
Argument wasn't about whether it's good or not. It was about this "SHADOW IS VEGETA NOW" nonsense. The character's core is unchanged. Nobody, nearly a whole day later, has actually given an explanation for how he's "changed."
It's just a fricking scapegoat phrase, a convenient thing people tell themselves to simplify the issue so they don't have to think about it.
>I just meant in the sense that he feels an obligation to protect people and thus has a reason to fight villains other than being a dick-stroking punk.
I thibk Shadow protective side is the same as Sonic, has a sense to protect others who are willingly a part of his own self created moral compass. Wbich ironically gets women and Sonic saved a hellova lot of times.
See, that works. Shadow just decides to do X because of his own moral standards. That could actually give him an interesting perspective to explore.
>"Ken Penders destroyed Archie Sonic."
To be fair, this one is explained by his own attitude that make it easy for everyone to hate on him and pin blames.
Is he the sole reason Archie failed? No.
Did he even play a part in the downfall? Debatable, as, I don't have the numbers of sales pre and post reboot.
In a way, fans blaming Penders for Archie's cancellation is actually giving him a credit he doesn't deserve
At min he is 50% to blame.
The rest falls on Archie's shit organization skills, management, internal distatian for printing IP books they don't own, and the popularity of Riverdale.
Had penders never bothered to throw a fit, they would still be chugging to this day.
>Batman the grim protector
>Shadow was originally based off the terminator and mewtwo, characters that are far from Batman and not as morally idealistic
Shadow is not a guy who has a no killing rule and hangs out with little boys. Hes more like the Punisher or Spawn.
>Character development beyond a first or second appearance is never a thing.
Shadow stopped having character development after his game. Debatably, he stopped after SA2 since his amnesia arc didn't really reset his personality.
The problem isn't Sega stagnating him. Hell, it's not even that they're regressing him. They just straight up turned him into something he never was.
Sure, ok, substantiate it. Talk about it.
How is the guy in Sonic Forces different?
Use your words. How is the edgy boy who taunts Sonic for no reason and picks pointless fights that jeopardize his goals different from the guy who shit talks his enemy and jeopardizes his goals doing so?
Best I've got is he doesn't have the backstory as motivation anymore. That's not a character change, that's just less focus.
Forces Shadow was not written the same way as IDW Shadow.
Forces Shadow is weird. In some ways he's actually written closer to Archie Shadow of all things. The DLC even said he was an agent on a mission from some undisclosed organization.
Forces basically has him as a GUN agent, even if that's not really canon anymore.
Forces did not estsblish GUN in that game, it doesnt exist.
If you count those Tailstube things as canon, they explained Eggman kicked GUN's asses and they stopped fighting back.
They mentioned GUN in Frontiers, so it's possible they could show up again. Still, whether Shadow is working with them directly or just doing Rouge a favor or whatever is pretty nebulous.
>even killing the mercs instead of sparing them out of fun not for the mission.
What was the deal with them, anyway? Was Shadow supposed to have killed them in cold blood, or was it during a fight?
They came at him, they were fair game. You gonna fight Shadow, you better kill Shadow.
i didnt get the sense Shadow was employed as an agent or even tied to the mission as closely as Rouge was, Shadow felt like he was going solo and wrecking shop like a rouge hero even killing the mercs instead of sparing them out of fun not for the mission.
It's hard to say.
In the flashback where he beats up Infinite after killing his squad he's seemingly acting on his own, though he's briefly seen talking into his glove like he's communicating with someone.
In the present, he was on a recon mission with Rouge and Omega. Seemed pretty formal.
>In the present, he was on a recon mission with Rouge and Omega. Seemed pretty formal.
Shit like this is confusing, but it could be like Sonic, Shadow keeps open communications with intell of sulport from his friends and keeps tabs on stuff. Not because of goverment actions.
That's the post I was looking for : can't expect Shakespear tier writing out of Sonic the hedgehog.
>"writers shouldn't try because it's le hedgehog game
people like you should be killed
There's a difference between trying and being a tryhard, you fricking baboon.
That's not what was said at all.
>People keep acting like things have changed, but the reality is that nothing has changed and these fans refuse to accept that the franchise won't grow up with them.
>They saw flickers of a long term epic in bits and pieces of old media and deny that they were always exceptions rather than the rule.
>Sonic is a vehicle for fun media and selling product.
Ok company shill.
Explain how Transformers, TMNT, He-Man, She-Ra, G.I.Joe, ThunderCats, and practically every fricking capeshitter in history manages to create good quality media for all sort of ages while still being vehicles for fun media and selling toys to kids, but Sonic seems incapable of doing this while SEGA is in charge?
>Buh M-M-MASCOT FRANCHISE
I think the word you're looking is MON FRANCHISE. A franchise dedicated to creating an ever expanding collection of brightly colored mutants for moronic kids to collect and battle.
As if Sonic being compared to Pikachu, Agumon & that cat from Yokai Watch is going to help his already flailing reputation among hardcore gamers.
>while SEGA is in charge?
Theres your answer.
>Explain how Transformers, TMNT, He-Man, She-Ra, G.I.Joe, ThunderCats, and practically every fricking capeshitter in history manages to create good quality media for all sort of ages while still being vehicles for fun media and selling toys to kids, but Sonic seems incapable of doing this while SEGA is in charge?
All of those got reboots and revisions, the Sonic from 1991 will NEVER go away unless the west completely nukes Japan off hte map. Japs don't rewrite their history and creations, htey just add onto it. They honor what they create and always will make time skips with new characters to preserve the origins if it comes to that.
It's likely been said ITT many times by now because I know Sonic gays and Mega Mangays are one in the same at this point, but this is what Mega Man did and worked but Sonic never did because the idea of losing Sonic to some Shadowlike protag of the future is too much of a sepekku move for SEGA to tolerate. The blue blur is quite literally all they have identity wise. Capcom has at least Street Fighter, DMC and Rez Evil.
>Japs don't rewrite their history and creations, htey just add onto it. They honor what they create and always will make time skips with new characters to preserve the origins if it comes to that.
Bullshit. Nips do reboots all the fricking time. Just look at classic manga franchises like Devilman, Getter Robo or Cutie Honey.
>The blue blur is all they have identity wise
Yakuza
>Explain how Transformers, TMNT, He-Man, She-Ra, G.I.Joe, ThunderCats, and practically every fricking capeshitter in history manages to create good quality media for all sort of ages while still being vehicles for fun media and selling toys to kids
Most of those have a worse batting average than Sonic and nothing ever actually develops in them: it all gets reset to zero after a few years. Those are perfect examples, if anything.
The way people treat Shadow is like if people kept asking why Starscream isn't a good guy anymore.
>People keep acting like things have changed, but the reality is that nothing has changed and these fans refuse to accept that the franchise won't grow up with them. They saw flickers of a long term epic in bits and pieces of old media and deny that they were always exceptions rather than the rule. Sonic is a vehicle for fun media and selling product.
This, you morons fell for fake hype. They baited you. You took the bait
Smart people stopped playing Sonic games when the gameplay went to shit. Only you kept the IP alive with the bait. While actual gamers stuck to the fan games. Just look at Frontiers. Shilled to oblivion all because Sonic did a anime move that reminded you of SMBZ or Final Fantasy Sonic while the gameplay was just as bad as Forces in the 2D stages and was just barely less trash than Forces boost stages in the 3D areas. Literally after a month people stop taking about the cancerous trashfire, because it's not a good game. It's a fanwank anime with zero self awareness of the real problem about the Sonic VIDEO GAME series.
You Black folk deserve this dogshit IP. The comics makes no sense being a thing but if it had to be a thing, it would 100% act EXACTLY like the Pokemon anime. Never changed, long winded and continuous, all to make fools buy product. It was NEVER fricking Star Wars or capeshit.
>Calls other people idiots.
>Thinks external Star Wars products and DC/Marvel franchises are any different.
lol
They are, because those aren't MASCOT franchises. They are just brands. Brands, like all others, that still get merch of characters that evolve over time, but is always expected to replace other characters that tend up more popular. This is literally how this always worked in the west. Unlike sonic where all constantly used characters always gets more merch of those characters, and whenever they either introduce a new one (of which dies off in game instantly) or is based on characters that (until a game changes that like Mania) hasn't been relevant for decades, stop appearing in any media related the IP. That's how this always worked with SEGA. If the characters still has merch, I bet you that character hasn't change since their inception. They were NEVER going to create someone that "replaces Shadow" with someone better. They wanted one archetype that fits the mold they want, being what Shadow is and always has been.
>They were NEVER going to create someone that "replaces Shadow" with someone better.
I mean Knuckles was that to Mighty and Shadow was that to Knuckles, but yeah ok. Let's hyperfocus on the fact that Star Wars doesn't have a Sonic-like figure who will eternally be the center of attention and ignore that the actual comparison was in regards to
>Never changed, long winded and continuous, all to make fools buy product.
All brands like this are the same. The things that Sonic being singled out for not being able to actually provide are the same things these brands can never truly provide. They'll pretend to move forward and the haul out the beloved iconography and imagery as old content is discarded. Star Wars is no better than Sonic when it comes to promising you long term payoff. Best you'll ever get is the core product being half competent at storytelling and the spinoffs to go rogue for a while before they're inevitably pulled back in line to conform.
>I mean Knuckles was that to Mighty and Shadow was that to Knuckles, but yeah ok.
That its entirely false and fabrication
Knuckles has been in every game Shadow was so there's zero evidence Shadow was suppose to replace Knuckles. The idea he replaced Knuckles "rival" role might be, but Knuckles was never SUPPOSE to be his rival since unlike Shadow Knuckles is TIED to his protector role of guarding the master emerald. This is explicitly shown in SA1 and 2 ffs. Sonic and knuckles are on all accounts, buddies that just butt heads some times because of differing motives.
And Mighty was an example of a failed character, not a replacement by Knuckles. Again, BOTH CHARACTERS appear in Knuckles' Chaotix, and was originally planned to come back in Heroes in his own team with Ray and Metal Sonic. At NO point was Mighty anything like what Knuckles represents. He was just "red bro Sonic" just like Ray was "yellow bro Sonic" that the original SegaSonic game showcased in beta footage.
> Let's hyperfocus on the fact that Star Wars doesn't have a Sonic-like figure who will eternally be the center of attention and ignore that the actual comparison was in regards to
Because, as I said Sonic ISN'T like Star Wars you reading comprehension having moron, Sonic is a MASCOT FRANCHISE. NOT a brand owned by a bigger company. It's like saying Buzz Lightyear is the mascot of Pixar despite being a subsection under Toy Story, of which is ALSO not the mascot of Pixar, just a high named brand of it.
SEGA's mascot is Sonic. That means everyone expects the same thing coming from that mascot like they expect out of the company. When devs want to try other things with their mascot without confusing their playerbase, they make spinoffs/subseries with alternative takes on the characters, like Capcom did with Mega Man. Something SEGA tried doing a times, but failed every time they try to pull it off.
You probably should have read the rest of the post instead of arguing
>Star Wars IS NOT A MASCOT FRANCHISE REEEE
at someone who agrees that Star Wars isn't a mascot franchise.
>Shadow want to protect the world so that he can fulfill Maria's wish. Him being a superhero, whatever the reason, will at least give him some reason to involve himself with other characters
What the frick would he wanna do that, he got over being tied to Marias wish in his own wish and goes his own path.
When did that happen?
Final True endingbof his own game, he tosses a pgoto of him, Maria and Gerald away and chooses to walk towards his own future defined by non guilt and purposes of others.
That's fine I guess but there's still no reason Shadow should be a generic shonen rival. He doesn't care about strenght for strength's sake, he's already confident in his own power and when he fights it's because someone pissed him off (which is extremely easy to do), not because he seeks strong opponents. Flynn already simplified Sonic's character to a generic no-kill rule before salvaging it in the Surge arc by tying it back to his belief in freedom, there's no need to give another character a stock cliché personality over their real one, especially when other characters like Amy and Eggman are being developed away from their own two dimensionality.
>that opens up the possibility of interesting interactions with other characters
Yeah like in SA2 and Heroes where he would... be a c**t to Sonic and act angsty and quiet.
Nothing actually changed. You're just asshurt that your fanfic of Shadow growing to not be a c**t isn't canon.
Akuma has gotten by because he has crossed paths with stronger opponents and failed. He actually motivates Ryu and forced him to change. He's just so far beyond the every day shit that its more he disaster area than anything.
Shadow isn't the dark path sonic could take.
He doesn't cause Sonic to rethink how he approaches things.
He's just broody Sonic+ and has been stripped of anything that could make him interesting.
>He's just broody Sonic+ and has been stripped of anything that could make him interesting.
Hes actually more than that, hes what Sonic is but carried by a drive to keep finding the truth and the fighting for the meaning of something instead of just embracing freedom and chaos and having fun. .
He could have that plot point along with bettering the world because Muh-Ri-Ahhh would have wanted it. But he's just a useles tard until Sega allows him to work off his previous progress.
>bettering the world because Muh-Ri-Ahh
Nah he doesnt need to do that to be a hero. And i doubt sonic games will allow hin nuance in actually improving the world since its always go to be perpetually in danger.
This. The only other valid Shadow is the one from Battle.
Probably because at that moment they didn't give crap to continuity and just wrote him like he was in SA2 instead of Heroes.
SEGA has no idea how to handle the Sonic series in general, Shadow peaked in Adventure 2 never really recovered from Sonic Heros / Shadow The Hedgehog games.
This is how SEGA wants Shadow to be written
>Shadow is minding his own business
>suddenly the plot indirectly affects him
>that or the plot goes out of its way to drag him into it
>the plot will induce stupidity in Shadow to stop him from ending the plot too quickly
>Shadow hates being in the plot and wants to go home ASAP
>the plot is over, Shadow goes home
>what does Shadow do in his free time?
>he picks a nice spot to stand, he crosses his arms and he broods all day
This is also why people argue that Shadow should've stayed dead.
>the plot will induce stupidity in Shadow to stop him from ending the plot too quickly
They actually don't want this one. It's what bad writers do to accommodate for him.
If they don't want it, why do they accept it?
Because they always settle for "good enough." They put brand image over story quality. They don't actively want shit stories, but they'll approve them so long as products come out on time and on brand.
Not hard
He’s edgy black and red Sonic. A rival for classic blue Sonic
It's a question that extends to the entire cast frankly. Flynn has gotten softer than during his Archie tenure for what I can only assume to be muh mandates, and so he writes everyone to be slightly more subdued. Sonic goes from tryhard to Superman, Shadow goes from broody edgelord to Bejita (forma de erizo), Amy is the stronk levelheaded leader and so on. It's not bad but the peak of Sonic writing is when everyone has a certain youthful energy to it. They're teenagers, not smarmy 30-something capeshit characters, so they should act like hotheaded teens. "But it's cringe", yeah, that's what made them popular in the first place. Not everything needs to be for everyone.
Alternatively he's out of touch and a bit lazy.
A lot of his thoughts on Sonic are holdovers from the 00s or just going along with popular fan opinion.
SEGA has a very specific vision for him and prevents any writer who actually likes him from doing anything cool with him
cause people are afraid of leaning into the edge now even tho thats what the people want, frick the neckbeards online
YES Shadow uses guns occasionally
YES he rides a motorcycle even those his base speed is far superior
why?
because he FRICKING CAN
what the people want, frick the neckbeards online, but there is also the issue of people thinking Shadow is incapable of being funny or good natured, when he definitely is, and his lack of a real goal
and that's the thing people keep comparing him to Vegeta but Vegeta had new goals and storylines after he moved on from the death of his race, what exactly is Shadow's point of existence after moving on from Maria's death?? i say they continue with the finding of meaning life and why the frick he sonic and co exist shit and give him a new waifu to chase, some female GUN agent who follows him around or some shit idk but yea thats my way of fixing Shadow
Rougue was always the best suit for Shadow.
Rouge is for Knuckles.
Nah. Knuckles is too wound upz manipulated and unfocused around her, Shadow can keep up with her mentally and morally and actually excite Rouge as a teammate and as a friend.
>Because you're weak!
and mass repliers don't I'd wager you'd say to?
Making fun of edgy stuff I feel was warranted at one point, but I feel like it was part of a bad trend where now literally anything with any degree of harshness or dire tonality is considered to be "edgy"
I feel as though the term "edgy" has gone from meaning
>"Empty shock value."
To
>"I'm offended by literally anything harsh. Don't wrongthink and go against my puritanical, sheltered ideals."
The term is 100% a thought terminating cliche and an American corpo buzzword, because the only time you ever see it get used is in reference to harmless pop media and not towards anything genuinely pushing boundaries.
Shadow on his own isn't too edgy (Shonen rivals are a thing) but the Shadow video game was.
>amnesia plot from Jason Bourne
>cyberspace level like this is the Matrix
>evil aliens like Halo or Independence Day
>government conspiracies
It was like a hackneyed mishmash of everything that was considered cool in the 2000s, with all the sincerity of a Mountain Dew commercial.
Even as an edgy 13 year old I was mad that they didn't build the game's combat around his Chaos powers and use his Battle moveset
He also had a fricking gun and shot cops with it.
It was the most 2000s thing to ever exist
If it were sincerely ripping off those things to be cool would it be okay?
https://desuarchive.org/_/search/text/Making%20fun%20of%20edgy%20stuff%20I%20feel%20was%20warranted%20at%20one%20point/
Do this site a favor and have a nice day.
Let me break it down for you
>SOUL era
Sonic Adventure 2
>Introduce character
>Market him as a big new villain
>Game comes out and character is given context and is revealed to actually just be misguided and angry, not evil
>Character (that was meant to be a one-off) completes his arc, redeems himself, and dies
Sonic Heroes
>OOPS turns out we made the most popular character our company owns aside from our literal mascot
>Revive him
>Spend all game explaining how and why he survived
>Give character friends and a new purpose in life so character has more room to grow
>EDGE era
>Be SEGA
>Make dogshit decisions
>Listen to fans that want Sonic to have a gun
Shadow the Hedgehog
>Get rid of the writer responsible for making the character beloved (Shiro Maekawa)
>Replace him with soulless company man Takashi Iizuka
>Chase trends of the day
>End up with the first truly horrible Sonic game
This is the point of no return
>Character becomes associated with company's downfall
>Chimpanzees like Arin Hanson and countless others place blame on character
>Iizuka becomes more involved in company and thus more projects turn to rushed garbage
Sonic 06
>Character is actually portrayed surprisingly well
>Probably on accident
>Character gets to drive the plot forward and actually behave similarly to how he behaved in the SOUL Era
>The game was Sonic 06 so literally none of that matters
>Shelf character
>Time passes
>People that loved character originally start becoming more vocal compared to non fans like Arin Hanson
>Be SEGA
>Make dogshit decisions
>Associate character with downfall of the franchise
>Too scared to bring him back in any meaningful capacity
>When character is allowed to appear, they must be written with strict mandates in effect
>No character development allowed for ANY characters, let alone the one that "ruined" the franchise
>Modern era
>Be SEGA
>Make dogshit decisions
What about Sonic X?
peak mid
What about Sonic Battle ?
Because he's an edgy loser
as someone who only played the games are you guys also looking at the comics? I've never read a single sonic comic is there a place online one can start? Also, where should I even begin?
Start with IDW Sonic, it takes place after the events of Sonic Forces. Don't let Cinemaphile trick you into reading 300 ancient archie issues
is a there a place online or a youtube video that expplains the sonic canon? Also where do i go to read this IDW?
Just go on https://readcomiconline.li/ and it should be there
Here's a pastebin with links to the archive of the recent Archie Ride:
https://pastebin.com/vka9prmC
Password: 60csquNW5w
One for the STC ride:
https://pastebin.com/8uWse1Bt
Password: jUxQBUH5Hx
And for the IDW storytime:
Pastebin (contains links to archived threads and an invite to the S6 Server): https://pastebin.com/MBiqDAcg
Password: FZ9TmThMwK
You can also usually find the comics on readcomiconline.li, but you'll want like five different adblockers.
We'll get shadow again in the Sonic 3 movie in a couple of years; I wonder how they'll try and differentiate him from knuckles since they already did the "Antagonist rival for sonic" thing in Sonic 2.
Betting they'll make the black arms race be the actual villains of that movie as well and skip the bio-lizard.
Writers already said the main issue will be Sonic dealing with someone as strong as him that the power of friendship won't work on.
>that the power of friendship won't work on.
up until the last 30 minutes of the movie when he joins forces with sonic of course; just like knuckles did.
It'll be a temporary thing
Do you think they will do the whole SA2 story in one movie ? Would be bloated, but 2 movies would be too much.
Just like The Hobbit movie
Imagine if they go through with that 100% and shadow is a pure villain that's killed at the end
The rage would be astronomical
is shadow still the 2nd most popular charcater after sonic?
No. iirc that was an american-exclusive poll that was years and years ago, wasn't a character based one but a vote on who should get a spinoff game, and he actually only tied with Eggman for that.
But other than that not very certain. There's been a bunch of polls recently from Japan from America and even from nintendo and absolutely all of them have really different results. One of them had Amy as the most popular character. But the general trend is that Shadow's popularity has dropped a lot, most often he's not part of the top 5 anymore
how abiut team Chaotic? I love those guys
>But the general trend is that Shadow's popularity has dropped a lot, most often he's not part of the top 5 anymore
Source or go frick yourself with napalm. Shadow above and over everyone after Sonic on the official sonic news network polls.
sonic news network? You meant the poll from 2011?
Theres this
https://mobile.twitter.com/GameSpot/status/1511093712532611073
>2857 votes
>versus GameFAQs's 95122 votes
I thought sonic 2 gave knuckles a pretty huge popularity boost lately.
It did.
Can we stop with the DBZ comparisons? Nobody who isn't trolling thinks Sonic wasn't lifting from Dragonball. The point is that Shadow-as-Vegeta sucks and a lot of people want him to go back to how he was presented from Adventure 2 to 06.
Fair enough. My stance on that is still: Just steal his characterisation from tails get trolled, just, more normal.
>Just steal his characterisation from tails get trolled, just, more normal
Shadow's extremism and murderous hair-trigger is why he's so funny, though.
>Shadow's extremism and murderous hair-trigger
Should be incorperated more into some parts of his canon personality.
yeah but you can do that kid-friendly or whatever sonic cartoons are considered. just have him blow something up or punch something isntead of murdering someone. You know, get results after he gets fed up with Sonics shit. Not just, be angry for angers sake.
Shadow's funniest moments were when he said murder was the answer to bullying, when he killed Daffy and Bugs for screwing over his plan, and when he killed a village of innocents because he thought the other Slaiyers weren't taking things as seriously as he did.
Yeah, and I dont see how you couldnt translate this into the comics TO A DEGREE.
It will never be as funny as Lazers shit, thats just not doable. Theres no guys with no ears. but it would be better as the current "we have no idea what to do with him" shit.
Yeah, Sonic just had some easter eggs / references to DB -the obvious one being Super Sonic- but that's all.
>back to how he was presented from Adventure 2 to 06.
A Hiei/Vegeta hybrid who did Jason Borne cliches
>how he was presented from Adventure 2 to 06.
The same way he's presented now.
>No, wrong.
Explain the difference. Give video game examples.
>Give video game examples.
Literally only Boom
How do yall feel about his portrayal in Prime. he looks like an older brother sort of role in that one.
If Tails is Gohan, then who is Videl?
If Tails is Krillin, then who is Android 18?
If Tails is Bulma, then Tails x Shadow when?
It's almost like not every Sonic character is a 1 to 1 match to DBZ's cast. Shut the frick up.
>Those numbers.
I kneel, you won.
Man that takes me back to when I had discussions about which horse is which TF2 character. Good times
You should've given up the moment you realized you'd have two Snipers by necessity.
I personally was always a fan of zebra-demoman. But then, Im racist.
Fast and rude
Strong and eats a lot and has a pet
Girly but insane
Smart and educated and owns a pet
This is why shonen Sonic gays need to be shot.
Shonen is the best part of Sonic, that and running through the loop da loop.
Take that away and there's nothing but gay shipping drama.
So which show was Forces ripping Infinite off from? I can't remember any popular shows in the last 15 years where the villain acted like a chuunibyou who hid one of their eyes.
Naruto?
I immediately regret asking this question.
Like, I'd've settled for Gaara, but for frick's sake, get this moron away from me. He's already ruined My Hero Academia.
The problem actually started with Yu Yu Hakusho
Chapter Black arc
How did YYH affect which show?
Sensui? He wasn't ever really like Infinite
>He's already ruined My Hero Academia
First,
kys use the proper acronym, BNHA, you filth.
Second,
What the frick are you talking about?
>kys use the proper acronym, BNHA, you filth.
Ow the edge
>What the frick are you talking about?
Three Obitos
>Three Obitos
Still going to have to elaborate.
Shigaraki, Dabi, and Kurogiri all have distinguishable traits from Obito in how they're executed.
How the frick is Dabi like Obito?
He's an identity reveal that everybody saw coming.
I remember how people were mad that they saw the Obito reveal and wanted it to be someone else.
Hardly unique to Obito. Not like Dabi had any red herrings regarding his actual identity, like how everyone treated Tobi as Madara for the longest time
>Three Obitos
I still have no idea on what you're talking about.
Get rekt Shadowgays
https://board8.fandom.com/wiki/(8)Tidus_vs_(9)Shadow_the_Hedgehog_2004
I don't understand your point. Shadow isn't even the main character in his game and he almost beat the main character in one of the 3 most prolific FF games of all time. That's a good thing for Shadow fans. It's 2004 though so...
https://board8.fandom.com/wiki/(8)Shadow_the_Hedgehog_vs_(9)Ness_2018
Forgot my pic.
again Shadow not the protagonist of his series is put up against the main character and most well known character from the heralded Mother franchise and almost beats him in a poll. What are fans of shadow suppose to be mad about. If it was 30-70 or 80-20 for a character like Get I'd understand, but this.....
LOL you think Ness draws his popularity from Earthbound and not Smash Bros
shouldn't this be a conversation saved for Cinemaphile?
Shouldn't this whole thread be on Cinemaphile and not Cinemaphile?
The subject of how Shadow is written largely affects the comics as you can tell from the OP. Sonic in general is a little bit of every board really.
Speaking of Cinemaphile issues, how's Sonic Prime? Is it good?
I like it, but the worlds are kind of barren but the character interactions are what we are here for anyway and they are top tier, also the action is good.
It's like if Sonic Forces was a show.
wasn't sonic forces bad..... Sonic prime is good though alot of interesting things to keep you watching.
Yeah it's more like Boom if you traded setting and most of the meta humor for a sci-fi plot.
Ostensibly
All this talk about Shadown, when he isn't even the best character of the whole series.
Sonic OVAs were kino
I picked up the OVA when I was a kid was the first time I saw Sonic. Loved knuckles in the cowbuy hat.
They had the best balance of humans and animals in Sonic's world.
How come no metal shadow ever?
Why would Eggman create a robot with an even bigger identity crisis than what Metal Sonic already has?
Why didn't he make Metal Sonic shit bombs?
I like idea he loosely sees him as family
Neo needs to be his permanent Modern design
Too supervillainy to be the default. need something in between
Maybe make the quills smaller and remove the shoulder bades + buttcape? The bulkier forelimbs are the things I'd want to keep the most in a default Modern design
Dude, don't give any specific responses until he explains himself. There's no reason to believe he's not just trolling for responses.
I think we can all say Shadow needs to be improved with some depth, but not to the final fantasy levels he possesed in 06 and archie. This is Sonic after all, every character should be generally simplistic and well established on 1 or 2 traits that open new stories to explore their characters and the world around them. Shadow's emotional range should be vague and mysterious, just like him. Subtle not exaggerated like in Archie. His actions and sense of purpose should be similar to Sonic, its self imposed independance on things he thinks is right, but unlike Sonic he does not waver and sees things through stubbornly even if it kills himself or everyone around him.
He doesnt like small talk and says whats needs to be said, but he does exchange casual conversation the type of people who dont waste time and are elegant if not professional in their jobs. He views the strong worthy of a fight since he does want to excell generally as the ultimatr lifeform and ignores the weak, not to near vegeta levels but enough to dismiss them without offending them
I'd like him Omega,and Rouge to stick together. Maybe have him interact with Cream like in
honestly can't believe that is real.
Prime also has Rouge in Sonic's team which is weird but kinda nice
Fans don't even know what htey want him to be
Some just want some "he can be fixed uwu" typical edge 2000s character that women like, or they just want what those DeviantART OCs that are overpowered tacoball tier broken that make the official Sonic characters look like pathetic ants.
With how people reacted to Surge, I'm convinced it's mostly the latter.
>With how people reacted to Surge, I'm convinced it's mostly the latter.
Surge doesn't deserve fans. She's not a character, she's a workaround.
ENOUGH OF THIS SHIT TALK. Let's argue about when Shadow was at his best game, TV show, or comic. I'll go first.
Best in TV: Sonic X
Best in video game: Sonic 06
Best in comics: TGT
I'd say Archie Shadow is the best in comics but he was evil for no reason in the 25/30 years later arc
Non sequitor. If you're not going to respond to my accusations, then don't reply to me.
And the conversation is dead.
Would still like to know what the issue with Man of Action is supposed to be.
There's an issue with Man of Action?
Oh yeah I forgot they were on Sonic Prime.
Metal Virus. Turned him into this.
the metal virus plotline is such shit.
Why can't Potto write characters other than Sonic doing anything anymore?
It really is. A fun concept executed about as poorly as it could possibly be.
>Shadgeta the Jobber
>constant crying and angst
>bringing the Zeti in for no real reason
>stretches on for TWENTY FRICKING ISSUES
What an awful arc. I can't believe anyone likes IDW.
Is there a way to read this without filler?
The problem with IDW is that basically the whole comic IS filler.
None of the villains are remotely menacing. None of the arcs go anywhere or explore anything interesting. It takes eleven issues to introduce Surge and Kit, and they still don't come across as a threat at any point.
There's a 4-issue mini devoted to a plotline about the crying OCs battling an evil octopus with the amazing power of owning a knife.
It's better than just a regular old knife, dummy.
It's a knife that he's not allowed to stab anyone with.
Truly, a villain to make Sonic tremble.
Maybe that one perv that wanted Lanolin to secretly be Mimic was onto something. Having him screw over the Restoration from inside would be pretty funny.
What if Shadow carried a man-purse?
Why? Hes got cartoon hammer space powers.
He can't keep all those chaos emeralds in his ass all the time.
Nevwr underestimate the Ultimate Lifeform!
Training hard with master Goatse really paid off in the end. The rear end.
Has Shadow taken off his inhibitor rings in the comics yet?
Yes, well in archie at least. It failed spectacularly.
He fought a god for a bit that magicked super Sonic into the sun. Doesn't get much better
Imagine an emo Tony the Tiger or Chuck E Cheese. Now imagine trying to write stories for him without being ironic or funny.
Brainlet take
you act as if they never try to be funny with Shadow since he's not always a serious character or they have fun with how serious he is, also the last fricking thing we need in fiction is more irony poisoning
I dont like Shadow being made a joke out of his expense and character. It makes him like Knuckles. Espdcially if its someone like Sonic.
I mean it's not impossible to give him funny stuff without diminishing his character, you just have to balance/be restrained like Knuckles in the Sonic 2 movie or Eggman at his best when he can be threatening and comedic the turn of a switch.
Well archie sucked at it.
Someone who gets tricked multiple times by bat hoe thiefs and eggmen and beat up by little girls with one hammer strike is not based. Shadow puts golding hoes and little girls in their place all the time and beats Sonic is a realm above based.
Yes, we know. Shadow has to be a boring edgelord 24/7, even though that'll ironically be even funnier than if he has any softer side.
>ultra-powerful alien tougher than Rouge and Omega, who can specifically nerf Shadow's Chaos powers
>Shadow beats him anyway
>you're still mad
Propose a villain that you think could actually take on Shadow, right now.
He was supposed to die after SA2 and no one knew what to do with him after they brought him back. The new characterization always stops and ends at "edgy Sonic."
Mandates and DBZ references.
Eclipse was not particularly strong. He came off that way because he had powers designed to counter Shadow and only Shadow.
He could attack him mentally via the hive mind, he could shut down his chaos powers and he had a temporary hulk form in case Shadow tried to take off his inhibitor rings.
Against anyone else he was average. Even the hulk form just barely beat Omega and Eclipse collapsed from it anyway.
He was only a big threat when he had his mutant wisp babies powering him up.
Relevant possible good news: https://board.sonicstadium.org/news/comics/idw-writer-evan-stanley-reveals-new-more-workable-guidelines-for-shadow-r292/
>Shadow being more understood is precisely what happened. I’m reminded of a scene in an upcoming issue where in the original draft Shadow acted without explaining himself, only giving an aggressive, confident response to his team-mates. This isn’t how I would have liked him to handle the situation. But in previous issues, this is how I’ve been asked to write him… so that’s what I did.
>So you can imagine my delight to get the script back from SEGA with the request to have him instead explain his reasoning when it makes sense to do so and to showcase his intelligence, pragmatism, and capacity for strategy in the future. Not only does this make him much more workable within storylines, it helps make it clear that his “pride” is, from his perspective, a non-judgemental statement of fact and not an ego trip. It’s also an honest reflection of reality– 99 out of 100 times he really IS that good.
This reads like the people in licensing keep trying to steer Shadow towards a middle ground and the writers take the suggestions as "FULL FORCE LEFT OR RIGHT."
Reminds me of the story of Miyamoto suggesting that Metroid Prime let you view the world through "different eyes." The team had no idea what the frick he meant so they incorporated the visor system, which Miyamoto was apparently very happy with.
I'd sooner side with the writers on this than the suits up in corporate. If it tool the latter this long to course correct, it's plain they were content with the results up until very recently.
>I'd sooner side with the writers on this than the suits up in corporate.
Considering the writer in question is framing this as both sides understanding each other better, it sounds to me like you don't actually care what she says and just want an easy scapegoat.
It comes off as if their contacts give them pointers devoid of context and then go "Yeah, frick it, good enough" when it comes back for a second pass. Evan's saying this is the first time she's approached writing Shadow from what she thought was the company stance, but then the licensors respond with "that's too far, reel it back in." It seems like she took the pointers as hardline stances rather than suggestions relative to her prior drafts. This is both on her for assuming it was that dramatic and on her contacts for not being clear and thorough enough with their feedback. Or hell, they could have just changed their minds. Less likely given the evidence, but still possible.
But nah, you're right, let's turn this into another ONE SIDE GOOD ONE SIDE BAD shitfest because it's easy to call one side corporate.
Sounds more like you read your preferred interpretation into the announcement and then projected.
I understand you want to win an internet argument, but "comes off like" and "seems like" are opinions. It's not projecting to tell someone what you think makes sense.
Frick of a lot more honest than saying you'd rather trust the writer while ignoring what she said.
I would consider it good news if it wasn't Evan... that person is dangerous. Their type... you gave them an inch, they'll try to take a mile.
if you ever feel bad for being a shadow fan just remember silver is literally just twiddling his fingers gardening
Silver has an interesting concept but I feel like he does not bring much to the table in execution. Perhaps he could use a minor retooling.
>Silver has an interesting concept
Of course, he's literally Trunks.
They really just have him pissing around in a garden because they haven't come up with the next thing for him to save the future from yet.
silver is the only of the "main" characters I don't really like
feels very superfluous,
Is it even possible to have a good discussion about the massive amount of Sonic animation and comic book media? Any thread inevitably devolves into
>fandom wank
>drama about current products
>weird assertions that things are inherently bad because of some personal ideal for the larger franchise
>Memes and fanbase talking points drowning out personal opinions
Like how are you even supposed to discuss the comics *as comic books* or the animations *as animation* underneath all this fandom nonsense?
ShadowBlack folk are so winy and entitled, fricking hell. Annoying ass fanbase.
Knuckles and Tails fans are just as worse.
The problem with Sonic's side-characters is that people play Sonic games for their fast-placed gameplay, which kinda precludes things like stupid sidequests and mini-games where you play other characters.
You could kinda get around that by having a game where you play half as Sonic and half as Shadow and they play the same, but it'd just be a reskin and come off as lazy.
Can you call Shadows gameplay a reskin of Sonic if hes meant to play as him equally, hes the guy who introduced the speedy rail and point system with Sonic in his debut
I just mean that it wouldn't fool anyone that playing as either Shadow or Sonic really varied the gameplay that much. It wasn't meant as a jab at either character.
It could work for story purposes, though.
>You could kinda get around that by having a game where you play half as Sonic and half as Shadow and they play the same, but it'd just be a reskin and come off as lazy.
But that's literally the argument against SA2 being shit for NOT doing that and forcing people to play shitty ass RNG hunting with siht level design or mechs with tank controls in a Sonic game.
People LIKED Sonic and Shadow's gameplay.
How did S3&K and Mania do it so well?
He really is the Vegeta then
>winy
People who like Shadow are wine aunts?
Beats me. I figure he should just be freaking out because he has no reason to exist and top himself because he wants to control his own destiny. I have no clue why this bad idea of a character is still around.
Because the only good way to write shadow is him out of the story
shadow
See, its not that hard
Is the Sega mandate for Shadow a myth?
the what now?
The mandate that Shadow has to act like a parody of Vegeta.
Apparently it might be a myth:
Looks like the IDW writers just took SEGA's guidelines too literally or something, and so now SEGA is asking them to ease up a bit.
>Looks like the IDW writers just took SEGA's guidelines too literally or something, and so now SEGA is asking them to ease up a bit.
That doesn't make sense. If SEGA was displeased with how IDW was interpreting their guidelines they would have said so from the start.
>"I don't know what companies are or how they work" - the post
Sega isn't some singular guy.
Anon, there is literally no point in having guidelines if they not only can be interpreted wrong, but the wrong interpretation is approved for years before the company realizes something's up.
You're trying to pin the blame on IDW's writers but your theory only makes SEGA look incompetent.
>SEGA's guidelines
You mean "mandates". Remember, if they are guidelines, they can't pin the blame on Sega
So Silver is Shadow and Rouge's son, right?
No. Too far into the future, so a descendant.
How do we know that? Also, I've always been confused as to what's the official explanation to certain urban stages like Grand Metropolis from Sonic Heroes.
Now thinking about it, the Adventure games were set in the present day, Heroes had some futuristic stuff and Riders was full on futuristic.
>How do we know that?
Because the game said he came from 200 years in the future and that he is 14 years old.
All the Sonic cast really needs to appease most people, from classicgays to adventuregays to boostgays, is this:
>Sonic
>Tails
>Knuckles
>Amy (unfortunately)
>Eggman
>Shadow
>Rouge
>Sage if they HAD to give Eggman someone to bounce off of. Cubot/Orbot fricking suck
Welp thus marks the last post of the Shadow thread More surprised it kept up for so long instead of deleted via mods, Sayonara Shadow the Hedgehog
Sayonara Shadow the Hedgehog.
Adios Shadow the Hedgehog