Would TLJ be a better movie if Luke stayed alive at the end? Feel like the fact that he dies makes the whole projection trick pointless.
"Haha joke's on you Ben, i'm not actually there, you can't kill me!" *dies anyway*
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there are bad movies where you can catch glimpses of a good movie somewhere inside them. TLJ is not one of those.
>Would TLJ be a better movie if Luke stayed alive at the end?
Yes, but it still wouldn't be good by any metric.
If Luke had survived, the film wouldn't have such a dumpster fire because, going forward, he'd still be alive and could be in a good film in the future. Part of what made TLJ so atrocious was the way it permanently fricked the franchise going forward by killing off Luke like a b***h, as well as killing off Snoke unceremoniously and not killing off Leia despite going through all the motions.
this
fpbp
I thought the Rey/Ben plot could have been salvageable but everything else in the movie was too moronic
Not really.
This is actually what normie midwits think is good criticism. The perfect target audience for this insult to film
If TLJ had ended with Luke jumping in with his lightsaber and decapitating a bunch of stormtroopers, then doing a triple super force backflip into orbit and destroyed the Death Star #705 the neckbeards would have loved it
I would have loved a movie that didn't spend most of it's time emasculating him, assassinating his character, and having him die like a b***h.
What movie did that?
TLJ
>utterly fails to rebuild the Jedi order
>tried to murder his own nephew
>hides from his problems like a scared b***h, let's friends die and galaxy go to shit
>doesn't even train R*y
>dies for no reason after sending a fart projection
The only one where he dies.
Putting aside the direction Rian wanted to take Luke there are so many blatantly stupid contradictions out in the open that undermine believability in his supposed character development.
>the jedi must end!
>and yet I preserve and keep le sacred texts instead of following through with that conviction and burning them myself long before Rey even arrives
That's Rian's Luke's cardinal sin: he has no conviction. Because he has been infected by the Mary/Gary Stu effect where he has no life or agency outside of when Rey is in proximity to him. None of his actions make sense or have any consistency or coherence with his own history because he has been relegated to a plot device for Rey.
>audiences would have loved if their favourite character got a cool moment of fan service
WOAH, REALLY? Holy shit, this is so hypocritical. Good thing that modern star wars doesn't fall for any dumb attempts to please their audience base anymore and can instead focus on writing... scenes where Ahsoka stands with her arms crossed while nothing happens?
What is that weird pterodactyl (archaeopteryx? Or whatever the frick is that?) looking thing in the first miniature?
But this isn’t true he shit talked Ben and made fun of him the whole time his last remark was a insult to him
I liked it better than TFA, until he died. Then it was the same
He'd served his purpose at that point
>Haha joke's on you Ben, i'm not actually there, you can't kill me!
That wasn't the point at all
There was no point the movie was written by a moron.
I love that the new Rey movie is going to be her rebuilding the Jedi order AGAIN. Got to shit on Luke's legacy one more time they can't help themselves
Rey will be replaced with a strong black woman, I can’t wait, Disney giving us what we desire.
Luke's legacy is safe because disney wars isn't canon. We the fans kept this franchise alive for 46 years, so we get to decide what is canon.
We're like 5, 10 at max, years away from being able to use ai to adapt Heir to the Empire properly without any of disney's bullshit. It doesn't matter what crap they try and push anymore
You're right. I look forward to being able to make completely customisable films through AI within the next few years without any of disney's sinister marxist propaganda.
>leia is the one they leave alive
>carrie fisher dies
>every single skywalker/solo dies defending rey palpatine from ben solo
>and she's the last one left standing
>proceeds to steal luke's name and ancestral home
sheev won
>rey palpatine
Ummm you mean rey skywalker??
This shit was so fricking funny and they thought it was so fricking clever. Then the stupid c**t died from her years of being an absolute drug fiend leaving them completely fricked. I cannot imagine how many suits and writers had their hands on their heads in sheer exasperation the day she died thinking
>what the frick are we gonna do now?!
People like to say that Luke's legacy was ruined by having him as washed up and bitter but I think the whole point was so he could redeem himself at the end. It was done badly but thats what they were trying to do.
Why would he need to be redeemed in any way? He was written as the perfect hero in the original trilogy. For him to be redeemed they had to ruin him first and that's the issue. There was no need to ruin him. But they can't leave anything good or pure--they have to postmodernize everything.
Replace "Luke" with "Superman" and tell me the idea still sounds good in your head. I know, I know, that's a great oversimplification of an analogy but I'm trying to avoid straining your mental faculties on a day when you're more likely than not distracted and possibly already somewhat inebriated.
Lol are you here right now Ryan you fricking loser. Stop defending your trash movie on Christmas day. Go be with your family.
Would TLJ be a better movie if Rey had to tearfully eat an entire live porg?
without a single doubt
Large teeth for cracking porgs.
Only if she washed it down with green alien tit milk
>Rian forgoes any sort of plot or characterization to deliver a 3 hour long meta-PSA that it's ok to hero worship and feel inspired by Luke Skywalker even though he's fictional
>tards on the internet are utterly convinced that this movie hates Luke Skywalker
I'm rarely this baffled by internet discourse, but this one has me stumped. Did we even watch the same movie? This shit fricking worshipped Luke Skywalker, to the point of relegating everything else to the background
>the film worshipped Luke so hard that it killed him off like a b***h after he meditated too hard while constantly being shown up by Rey
wow, you really made me reconsider things
consistently proving
right
>THE FILM WORSHIPPED LUKE STOP COMPLAINING
>OMG ARE YOU STILL MAD THAT IT ASSASSINATED HIS CHARACTER? YOU JUST WANTED A CRINGEY FANSERVICE SCENE STOP WHINING!
lel
How do you even watch the original trilogy if you idea of a 'good' Luke scene is one where he kills people with a lightsaber?
You ignoring every other aspect of the movie moron? I don't remember Luke abandoning his friends in the OT either. The guy who redeemed fricking Darth Vader contemplates killing his nephew? Seriously?
>I don't remember Luke abandoning his friends in the OT either.
Again I'm unsure how the frick we watched the same movies when this is your takeaway.
Did you miss the part in ESB where abandoning his training to jump in head-first and save his friends was completely futile and only made everything worse? In Return he'd already learned his lesson, but you wanted TLJ to revert him back to being a stupid naive kid?
Ironically Empire subverted the traditional hero tropes a lot more than TLJ did, funny how you're not foaming at the mouth over that one.
>The guy who redeemed fricking Darth Vader contemplates killing his nephew?
He didn't kill his nephew moron, just like he didn't kill Vader.
His attachment and love is what saves everyone. It's his weakness and strength. And what separated him from the autistic monk Jedi order. Yoda and the others had long given up on Anakin but Luke didn't. In the TLJ he explicitly is NOT training or helping anyone until the very end. He's hiding like a b***h. It's not similar at all.
Reading comprehension homie. I said he CONTEMPLATED killing Ben. He thought about it. And then failed to bring Ben back. The guy who redeemed ultra space Hitler Vader.
>I said he CONTEMPLATED killing Ben. He thought about it.
The popular reading of the Kylo scene is so fricking bizarre.
Luke (a psychic space wizard who can see the future) knew in that moment that Kylo 'would bring destruction, and pain, and death... and the end of everything I love'. He pretty much knew for certain that leaving Ben alive would mean the end of his Jedi Order, the death of Han and Leia (indirectly, I haven't seen Rise of Skywalker so idk what actually happened there).
And he STILL doesn't kill him, precisely because it's NOT in his character to do so. And then he feels crippling shame that it even crossed his mind.
>And for the briefest moment of pure instinct I thought I could stop it. It passed like a fleeting shadow. And I was left with shame... and with consequence. And the last thing I saw were the eyes of a frightened boy whose master had failed him.
Remember he almost killed Vader too after he threatened Leia For a brief moment he gave into rage and despair, but he stopped himself and threw away his lightsaber. That is literally the mark of a good person, that's what Luke represented. Not some bizarre puritan idea that if you have a bad thought you're pure evil. Recognizing your own darker impulses and consciously not acting on them is a far greater testament to his moral fiber than you're giving it credit for.
You're right, but TLJ is a still a bad film not because it subverts our expectations but because it underwhelms our expectations. Good films exceed our expectations, whether they subvert our expectations or not. And TLJ didn't exceed our expectations.
* but TLJ is still a bad film
True.
>Luke (a psychic space wizard who can see the future) knew in that moment that Kylo 'would bring destruction, and pain, and death... and the end of everything I love'.
Vader already did that, and refused to kill him even in a moment of anger. NIce trash movie you got there, Johnson.
If you can really see the future 100% with no room for changing it or doubt about its accuracy, then the universe is deterministic and pointless. Without free will there is no light and dark, no good and evil.
Right but then despite all that when he finally pulls himself up by his bootstraps and force zooms Ben he proceeds to continue heckling him and busting his balls.
Now I'm all for that in a loving uncle having a good laugh at the expense of his shithead nephew. But after everything that happened, including murdering his own father, you'd think Luke would have had something better and deeper to say/do. It's all done on purpose to belittle and dehumanize Luke (hence them deleting the scene of him mourning Han) to further make him a failure. Just like Han, just like Chewy, just like the entirety of the surviving OT protagonists.
That's a Joss Whedon moment right there.
>somber moment with potential to have some depth
>"WHOA BRO, I DID NOT JUST FREAKIN DO THAT? OKAY I GUESS HECKIN FIGHTIN SITH LORDS IS A THING I DO NOW, OH MY SCIENCE THAT'S WHOLESOME CHUNGUS"
just gotta have a snarky joke or quip break up every moment.
You're minimizing the "evil thought" thing as much as you possibly can, and doing your best to strawman finding it off as some "Puritan" stance, but the fact is contemplating killing your own nephew who you're the guardian of is extremely fricked and does feel out of character. Vader is a very different case.
Its also not in Luke's character to give up, especially on family, especially on someone he has responsibity for. He risked it all to try and save his father when no one would have faulted him for killing him. That just doesn't jive with running away and hiding and becoming bitter when his nephew turns to the dark side, it's like two completely different characters.
Why do you slimy homosexuals ALWAYS leave out the fact that Luke did not snap instantly on the Death Star. It took the combined effort of watching the rebel fleet die before him, believing his friends and family were all likewise doomed, and THEN having Vader deliver the final blow that sent him over.
His first reaction to Vader taunting him on Endor was to try winning him over
His reaction to Palpatine’s taunts was to talk shit back and turn it around
His reaction to knowing the emperor wouldn’t die for certain, due to the fleet being ambushed, was to take a swipe at him, which was a calculated (if poor) decision
It’s not comparable in the fricking slightest to TLJ, where he walks in has his vision and instantly reacts. If it was supposed to be reflective of that, we’d have seen multiple examples of Luke taking reasonable actions until he hit critical mass
>b-b-but they said Kylo had been a bad egg for a whi-
“No!”
That’s telling, not showing. Imagine if the throne room scene cut out all the buildup to Luke going apeshit and replaced it with Palpatine narrating what had just gone on. It would have been just as fricking shit.
Even mark hamil thought this was completely moronic and luke wouldnt even consider drawing his lightsaber on a sleeping child based on a bad dream
If that’s the story they wanted to tell, it should have had multiple flashback scenes, or an extended prologue, to let us feel Luke and Ben’s relationship. Storytelling via a single contextless exposition scene works badly and is fundamentally pathetic
>Did you miss the part in ESB where abandoning his training to jump in head-first and save his friends was completely futile and only made everything worse?
It didn't make anything worse, though. Nobody would have escaped had he not intervened.
>the guy who redeemed vader
I guess luke never told kylo that part of the story because little ben still worships vaders helmet as a dark side ritual
>battle droids
>people
lmao this is low effort even for a moronic shill
Star Wars movies started off by killing major characters. Kenobi dies in Episode 4 then later Yoda dies and Anakin dies too. Even Force Awakens had the balls to kill off Han Solo but somehow Ryan killing off Luke in TLJ is heresy?
>ignoring literally all context except for the action of Luke dying
Wow, what an interesting and amazing way of making your point. Let me try:
Indiana Jones films have always been about Indie finding some magical artefact with a female sidekick. I can't believe people suddenly didn't like it in Dial of Destiny!
How is Luke's death different from Obi-wan's?? Remember Obi-wan didn't even fight Vader but instead created a distraction so his friends could have time to escape. Luke shows up to distract the First Order long enough to allow the others to escape.
>Remember Obi-wan didn't even fight Vader
Why would you liken your shitty defence to a scene in a film you clearly never watched?
TFA killing Han was also egregious.
lukegays project themselves onto the character too much
>lukegays
Are you truly so young to not know that Han was overwhelmingly the fan favourite pretty much always?
I don't think anything could save it. It's just a fundamentally bad movie.
There's a fanedit on YouTube somewhere where Palpatine gives Luke a nightmare that makes him think he's battling Vader again and the whole thing with Ben is a giant misunderstanding. It makes more sense in context that way but Disney will never go back and edit any of these movies, and they're mostly too far gone to even be saved with editing anyway.
>run out of mana
>evaporate
>also two suns lmao
kwab
>"Haha joke's on you Ben, i'm not actually there, you can't kill me!" *dies anyway*
TLJ is unsalvageable garbage, but even so, the point of the Force Projection isn't to survive his battle against Ben but to buy the Nu-Rebels more time. That's it.
If his goal is just to buy the nu-rebels time though, then why not just actually show up? OP's point makes sense. I understand that it shows how powerful Luke is, but it's still pretty bizarre to have this reveal of "I CANNOT DIE" when Kylo stabs him then be followed by "OK I'M GONNA DIE"
What did the force projection achieve that actually being there would not?
>"see you around kid"
was actually a pretty awesome line. Weird that then he just died five seconds later and never saw Kylo again though
The idea is that it depicts him as an uber-powerful figure that stood up against the entire First Order alone, tying into the earlier line. His appearance being changed and the Anakin lightsaber reflect this also. In his own way he is living up to those legends. I liked this aspect of it. Dying from exhaustion afterwards felt a lot like plot convenience to me, though.
if luke actually showed up on crate then he would wipe the salty floor with adam drivers face. kylo is just lucky rey didnt jump out of the falcon or else she would have beaten him for the third time. hell, leia might have been able to beat him too if she had a light saber
>you thought I was there?
>LOL EXPECTATIONS SUBVERTED
Rian is a hack.
I look forward to his next whodunnit where the white man bad.
in this movie they just made up rules as they went along
>oh guess you can hyperspace ram now
>oh guess lea can float in space now
>oh guess luke can make a projection of himself but it kills him in the process
when there are no more rules and you can do anything, there are no more stakes
The problem with Luke surviving is that you end up with the same stakes issue that TFA wrote around by ditching him in Ireland. This is why some of those early Lucas ideas about Luke being like Kurtz or whatever did something similar.
What would Luke do in IX, a movie that would already need to tackle Rey, Finn, Poe, and Leia (as well as Kylo and the First Order)? You could have Luke and Rey confront Kylo together I guess, but that's probably too crowded for a story that's more about the dynamic between Rey and Kylo than any other pair of characters. Even the OT didn't approach that degree of focus. Luke living would have required a very different story in general.
>What would Luke do in IX
Trained Rey properly? Like Luke to Yoda in ESB vs ROTJ, IX could literally open with Rey accepting her shortcomings and seeking proper training (of course this would interrupt her character of being the most perfect person to ever perfect in the universe).
>b-but why wouldn't Luke just solve all the issues himself?
You know, literally any writer who isn't a complete hack could solve this. From the lazy "oh, there's a thing that means Luke can't or has one specific weakness that Rey doesn't have", to the more thought-out Goku-type framework of Luke recognising the need for someone who isn't him to defeat Kylo (or hopefully a villain that's more threatening than the moron who already jobbed in the last 2 films)
> Luke living would have required a very different story in general.
You say that as if IX wasn't already completely rewritten several times, or as if IX was some really tight, well-written story that we don't want to interrupt or risk losing.
Yes. It would have required a different story.
>Trained Rey properly?
I guess. It could've been a nice means of getting more introspection out of Rey, but that could have been accomplished with or without Luke being recycled Yoda. It wasn't, of course.
>or hopefully a villain that's more threatening than the moron who already jobbed in the last 2 films
Somehow Palpatine has returned and is ready for a wrestling match against Luke Skywalker this Monday night.
>You say that as if IX wasn't already completely rewritten several times, or as if IX was some really tight, well-written story that we don't want to interrupt or risk losing.
No. What I'm saying that a story that made better use of Luke would've required a very different version of VIII beyond Luke surviving, and preferably a very different Episode VII to begin with.
I think you missed the point
That kind of force projection takes so much energy it kills you
But he did it to save the lives of the people there
It was a sacrifice, possibly the one good bit of that film
The fan edit actually kept him alive.
>people who wanted Luke to survive wanted Finn to die for no reason
This is why I don't take these people seriously
Finn would die a fricking hero destroying that laser that for some reason needed to be positioned close to the bunker despite being you know a laser. The whole scene was regard
This. I don't even hate the guy. If anything he deserved a heroic sacrifice, especially after being treated like a sidekick the whole movie.
That's because he was clearly meant to die at the end of TFA
His character arc was over and him dying fighting Kylo to save Rey was a perfect send-off
Because they clearly had no idea what to do with him for the rest of the saga, which is why he went from co-protagonist to comic relief/mascot
It would be better if it wasn't a Spaceballs sequel.
Given that Carrie died a whole year before TLJ came out they could have easily swapped Leia for Luke in terms of who needed to go. There was plenty enough time to reshoot and edit. Luke would be fine in her place throughout Ep 9. Culminating him redeeming Ben (instead of that awkward scene with Leia) and either dying helping kill Palps like Ben or instead of Rey bunking up in the Owen farmstead, Luke returns home to live it out.
Either way it would have been better than what we got. (I've only watched like 5 mins of Ep 9).
Kathleen Kennedy refused to leave Leia alone even after Carrie died. I bet she was seething how much popular Luke and Han were so she wanted to pull them down
Yeah but then the fanbase will still keep wanting Luke to be their hero instead of accepting how amazing and great Rey is. Can't have a favourite character who's dead.
Hopefully the fanbase will finally realise how wrong they've been when Rey gets her trilogy
>when Rey gets her trilogy
When Rey gets her SECOND trilogy, which is the bigger crime.
That shit is never coming out.
I remember watching TLJ for the first time and seeing Leia's bridge explode, I thought "ah right they had to kill her off, a bit sudden but that's war sometimes, not everyone gets a big dramatic end" and then Space Leia happened
And I knew the movie was going to frickland and never returning
Killing Leia off that way would have been moronic anyway.
Yeah but at least understandable given the situation, just get her out of there and move on
NOT have her force fly on the fricking void while wearing no protective gear
I think the biggest obstacle to killing Leia off in TLJ is that giving her a good sendoff would've been hard to fit in with everything else going on. TROS didn't do a good job of it either, but at least it tied into Kylo's redemption. It was a bad situation in general.
It would also indicate the man had the balls to do something actually subversive.
Leia dying in a random bridge attack and staying dead would have been surprising but also a logical story beat.
Honest question.
Do you think there's still a dedicated small group of total morons who defend TLJ with all sorts of fallacies, or is it just one turboautist who just cannot comprehend facts, so he farts out the same lame "arguments" over and over again, even though they've been debunked fricking 6 years ago?
Yes I think there are a group of morons that will defend anything SW related regardless of the giant piles of dog shit Disney keeps shoveling out.
It's more than one tard.
But I understand your doubt, since they all repeat the same shit since the movie came out. I think they know it's fricking bullshit, but they try to be as tiresome as possible, so others will finally give up on discussion. I guess the TLJ tards count every case of this as a win.
No, it would still be shit because while Luke dying is a final frick you to the audience, it’s nowhere near the worst bit of writing in the movie.
Luke staying alive would have helped JJ out massively for pandering purposes, but that’s about it.
If you took the script, line-by-line, and made each sentence and direction the opposite, it would have likelier been a better movie. Rian was so obsessed with subverting expectations that he forgot to make a good movie.
Dumb Cinemaphilener
This shot of Luke looking at the sun before becoming one with the Force was perfect. Mark gave the best acting of his life yet Star Wars fans got mad about the movie.
Want to bet Hamill had no idea he died in that scene?
Only a bit.
But TROS would have been significantly improved.
TLJ is poorly made in general and incomprehensibly bad as a part 2 of a planned trilogy
The whole entire trilogy is so bad it is literally going down in history as the biggest media blunder in the history of all fiction. Seriously 100 years will go by and people will discover them, watch them, and grow to hate them. They really are a fricking black hole of misery.
>tiktok+ content ambassadors in 100 years time delivering toks about "the quickly forgotten stain of disney's media empire that lead to its downfall"
I don't think it'll even be viewed in that lens because even that attributes them with some kind of cultural significance they do not deserve. They really are so fundamentally bad and the decisions behind making them so bizarre, silly, and honestly just upsetting.
Better? Yeah passable? No
Luke's complete character butcher is only one of the many problems the movie has
Killing Smoke was worse IMO because that really killed whatever story RoS could've had
But even then the real issue was giving Mystery Box man the reins for the first movie, he can only write one-off stories not series where plotlines are expected to have pay offs
they're trying to capture the same essence as Dorsk 81 dying from using the force to throw an entire fleet of star destroyers out of the system, but it's not nearly as impressive of a feat so it just feels like he dies for no reason
The whole movie has this weird, moronic vibe like Rian Johnson is terrified of sincerity and has to turn everything into mockery to cope.
It is what happens with emotionally stunted children who don’t understand they aren’t as clever as they think they are.
Filoni has already ruined Luke by questioning if he was even a Jedi at all.
The order came from above to ruin the Legacy of Luke to replace it with lame gay women.